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ladies and gentlemen, I'm highly honored to have is my guest at this time the former governor of New York, the man who recently negotiated a test ban treaty with Mr Khrushchev himself. And I speak of none other than the honourable label Harriman. We're delighted to have him here because we want to ask him many questions about this proposed test band treaty, questions I know all of us have on our minds.

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Firstly, I ask you, governor, whether or not you think in any way, this treaty endangers our national security. Well, Senator, you know me well enough to know that I wouldn't have anything to do with it if I thought that many way danger to our national security.

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Of course, there is some difference of opinion, but I'm glad to say the overwhelming scientific opinion is that it's that it is a step of in the direction of our national security. You know, there are risks and everything we do in life, but to leave this arms race, nuclear race to go on unchecked or to try to check it and put a ceiling on it.

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And for that reason, I'm sure this is in our national interest. And it may well open up a chance to take some further steps in the way of limitation of the risks of war, which this one doesn't do on reduction in the number of weapons there are which can destroy the world.

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Do you think in your dealing with Mr Khrushchev that he really began to see the great danger not only to the Soviet Union, between the world in a possibility of the nuclear war? Well, George, let me answer that in this way. First, we've got to recognize that Mr Khrushchev is just as firm a believer in the Communist that the company isn't going to dominate the world.

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Has anybody ever was Stalin? And why, as you know, I dealt with during the war, there's no change in that respect at all. You know, he himself says, uh, you know that people say, Can you believe him? Well, I believe him when he says that there's no coexistence.

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As far as the ideological conflict is concerned, that must go on unabated. But there are certain areas in which we have a common interest. And after President Kennedy forced Mr Khrushchev to take his offensive weapons out of Cuba. It became very evident Mr Khrushchev did not want to have anything to do with atomic wall.

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They build up too much in the Soviet Union. You know, the tremendous development, great universities and great industrial capacity. The only failure they've had is in food production. But they don't want to see that destroyed any more than we do. And the Russian people don't want more.

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And so in that area we may be able to make some some progress. And I think we should try our best to do so. And after all, this is a treaty in which, by its own terms, if anything happens, which the president feels affects us adversely, he can withdraw from it on 90 days Notice.

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Now, there are a lot of people who say that the some people who say that the Soviet Union actually is ahead of us in this matter of exploding these large, uh, nuclear warheads, these many megatons of bombs and that we, by entering this treaty, will never be able to catch up with them.

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And therefore we give to them an advantage. Well, there's, I think it's true. You better ask scientist about that. But the, uh I've studied it very thoroughly as a layman can. It is true. There are ahead of us in this very large field. Uh, but we have made a conscious decision that these devils that the devastation of something in the neighborhood of attend Megatron bomb warhead is the most effective and that for a second strike nation as we are, we don't want to put all our eggs in one basket.

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In addition to which 10 10 megatons bombs, I'm told, has priced the devastating effect of one 100 megatons. And then if you're going to hit a hardened, uh, targets, you're more apt to hit it. And, uh, one bomb until megaton bomb is just as effective as 100.

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So this was a conscious decision on our part, and actually we could go to a much larger bomb even with the knowledge that we have. But it is true. They are a bit ahead. But fundamentally, we're way ahead of them on other aspects of the nuclear, uh, the the the nuclear bombs.

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And we have a far greater capacity to destroy them and and therefore we're in no danger. Does this test ban treaty. Will it in any way prohibit or limit our testing underground to go forward with the hopeful development of an anti missile missile? No, it does not.

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We are doesn't seem to be much difference in the knowledge that we have on anti missile missiles if anything were a bit ahead of them. But we are the trick. There is not the warhead, I'm told. We have the warhead, but tremendous. No more others of scientific and engineering problems of notes like put it in terms that I can understand and some perhaps some people watching us.

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It's like hitting a 22 bullets coming at you with a 22 bullets. You know, that takes quite a job to do, and that's the problem. This treaty just relates to explosions. It doesn't stop any kind of scientific information, the exploration that we want to do. And we should I hope, senator, that the Congress will support the determination of the president to go right on testing on the ground and to keep ready to test in the atmosphere at any time.

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This treaty doesn't hold them as possible, so the Soviets to get out of it, just as much. It is for us as I understand what the treaty provides you, that either one of us can get out of it within 90 days. But if we should find that they are aggregating the treaty, then we can immediately start our own testing in the atmosphere that has a treaty of the one reaches the treaty.

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And but I think it's to his interest to it. You know, I think he's a He's finding this very expensive to keep up in this nuclear arms race and very anxious to go ahead and develop his country. He thinks they're making such success of communism in their own country that that other countries are going to follow the example now.

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It isn't the commonplace you and I'd like to live in because it hasn't got the freedoms. But they are improving the economic conditions a great deal from what it used to be. Well, if anybody should know that, you should, because how many years you were Ambassador, our ambassador This But I first went to nearly 40 years ago during the twenties, and I've been a student of the Soviet Union ever since.

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A the revolution, right? How many how many other nations besides the United States and the Soviet Union, Great Britain are going to sign this treatment? Well, I don't know how many is going to sign it, but I think we've had nearly 60 sign here in here in Washington.

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I've forgotten what the final count is, but it's something like that, and every day they they're coming in. Now Soviet Union wants to get everybody to sign and that keep if you keep the spotlight on red China for failing to sign. They're trying to get to make the world believe that red Sean is more dangerous than they are now.

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Red. China and the Soviet Union have exactly the same objective. They both want to common eyes us, but they want to do it a different way. Mr. Khrushchev wants to have what he calls peaceful coexistence. I've called a competitive coexistence, and, uh, but he wants to avoid nuclear war.

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He's trying to maintain that the Chinese reckless and will bring the world to nuclear war, and on that basis he's trying to get support of the other communist parties around the world. Do you believe that we will be required to recognize the government of East Germany by the mere fact that they might sign the treaty.

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And if we don't, how did you people work that out? No, it's clear that we don't have to accept their signatory. The Russians do and makes an obligation on the part of these Germans. But it's absolutely clear an international law that many multinational treaties have been signed where one party doesn't recognize another.

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It's a question of intent. You have to have an intention to recognize, and it will not change our relationship with East Germany. We look upon East Germany as a as the Soviet zone of occupation. Right now, let me ask you this question. Do you do you foresee in this willingness and Mr Khrushchev designed the test ban agreement that there is a division growing between the Soviet Union and red China?

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Yes, there's a very strong division, and it's really basically the difference between a half nation. The Russians are becoming a have nation and therefore don't want to take the risk. Whereas red China still is very much of a have a nomination and ready to take risks which are really very, very dangerous, and I believe that President Kennedy is right when he said it may well be that red China, Maine time being more dangerous than the Soviet Union.

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But we've got plenty of problems with the Soviet Union, and I think nobody should relax in any way, shape or form. We hope we can make further progress, but they still want to destroy everything we believe in, namely freedom. Well, thank you very much, Governor Harriman, for these very wonderful observations and discerning observations which you have made, we greatly appreciate having a man of your background and experience on this.

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And I might add, I think myself you did a great job in negotiating this treaty on behalf of the United States in the free world. Thank you very much, Ladies and gentlemen, for joining us.