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Yeah. Uh huh. Her? Uh huh. Uh huh, Uh huh. Her? Uh huh. Both the Cold War is over. The Soviet Union's been dissolved. What's now the role of U. S. Military forces. Some have said that we need to stay strong in case there are others who attempted to act or to break the peace.

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The adventures of Iraq and invading Kuwait and trying to monopolize the oil industry perhaps, uh, have alerted many to the dangers that are still in the world. The U. S forces are not large by the standards compared to other armies in the world. But we do spill still spend much more on defense than any other nation in the world.

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And the level of our technology is far above any country on the face of the earth. Some have said that the U. S. Should assume a role of peacekeeping around the world. Our deputy secretary of state and the Clinton administration has advocated the taking control of a number of nations that are having problems and caring for them governing them, running them until they're able to get back on their feet.

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Others are concerned that that's not the role for the United States military. Today, we'll talk about the future role for the U. S. Military when we send troops abroad what the role should be. We'll talk to Cap Weinberger, who's a former secretary of defense under the Reagan administration, and Senator Bob Graham from Florida, who is a strong advocate of sending troops to Haiti.

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We think you'll find the show interesting. Please stay tuned. In Somalia. The U. S. Set a dangerous precedent by sending troops for humanitarian and peacekeeping reasons without any vital U. S national security interest. Haiti is even closer to the U. S. But it's not a country where a vital U.

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S interests exist. The Clinton administration stated. Its gold and hating is to aid Haitians in democratization. The mission has never been clearly defined. During the earlier part of this century, the US committed to a similar open ended mission in Haiti and stayed for 19 years. Haiti is located in the western part of the Caribbean island called Hispaniola.

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It was first colonized in 16 59 by the French, and since then, Haiti's seen many conflicts and uprisings. Hostilities throughout the 19th century led to US military intervention in 1950 which lasted through 1934 1991. A military hunter led by General Cedras overthrew the Haitian government and President Aristide.

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Recently, the Clinton administration committed US military forces to occupy Haiti. In the last minute effort to negotiate with General Cedras, the administration sent a delegation consisting of former President Jimmy Carter, Senator Sam Nunn of Georgia and former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Colin Powell.

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They reached an agreement with General Cedras. President Clinton sent in U. S troops to Haiti in hopes of installing a democratic government today on In Focus. Well, look at the U. S military role in the post Cold War world. We're joined by Secretary Cap Weinberger, who served as secretary of defense under President Ronald Reagan and authored an important set of principles governing the commitment of U.

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S. Troops abroad. With us also will be Democratic Senator Bob Graham from Florida. Senator Graham supports the Clinton administration's decision to occupy Haiti. We'll hear what both have is say about when it's appropriate to send US forces overseas. Stay with us while we take this short break.

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We'll be right back. The air dances with the waters, which brings the rain that feeds the land that is home to the animals. All life dances together in a world so connected. Choosing one environmental costs can be hard Earth share Is 40 environmental charities working together.

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You and your company can help by calling 1 800 my share all life lives or doesn't together? I think people think Cap Weinberger is from California that he did grow up there. He did serve in the California Legislature, and he did serve as director of finance for the state.

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But in reality, he's a secret. Calderon. Well, his parents are from Colorado, educated in Colorado, And, uh, we suspect there's some sentiment still left. There is, indeed, it's a beautiful state. It's good to have you with us. Very nice to be here. Editor of Forbes magazine now, along with a massive effort in the charitable area, and you still have done a great deal of work with Bechtel in the international area as well over the years, Yes, before, before I went to the Pentagon.

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Yes, your career in public service, I think, is legendary. I don't know of anyone who has a more distinguished career end of the Federal Trade Office. Secretary of health, education and welfare, secretary of defense under Ronald Reagan. Uh, but perhaps you're most known, I think, for being secretary of Defense and devising a defence policy.

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Well, it's just that I could never hold a steady job before, but I was at defense seven years, and it was a very interesting time, an exciting time to be there. I don't think I want to be there now because we have a commander in chief at the moment who doesn't understand or even like the military.

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But serving under President Reagan was a great privilege, and we did have to build the armed forces up very quickly and and we managed to do that. And I'm very, very pleased about that. Well, I should have mentioned earlier, director of the Office of Management and Budget, the federal level.

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It really was a great background to have as the time you were Secretary of Defense. Well, it did help. It really did because I knew that well, we had to build the defenses as quickly as possible. We had to do it and as economical and as business like a way as possible and also to leave the foundation, the infrastructure, so to speak, of the Defense Department strong.

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And that was an important thing to do because we knew that ultimately the, uh, the reaction would set in. And there probably would be a great pressures to reduce defense spending. As there are now defense. Spending in a democracy seems to be very unpopular. Well, we're engaged right now in a very difficult to be over what the proper role of the U.

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S. Is in the world and particularly post Cold War world. We have forces active in Haiti at this moment. We've just withdrawn forces from Somalia after a very unpleasant, tragic series of events. There were contemplating sending forces, uh, into the Balkans. Uh, particularly into, uh perhaps, uh, the Croatian Serbian area.

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You, while you were secretary of Defense, okay, came forth with what's become known as the Weinberger guidelines. Weinberger rules for engagement. What led to the development of those Well, uh, two or three things led to that. Actually, one was the rather indiscriminate number of demands for the use of American forces.

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Almost any time a trouble spot develops. Why one of these solutions frequently and here in the United States and the State Department, otherwise is to is to send in the troops. And I was very concerned with the fact that this might come up almost any time.

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It did come up in Lebanon and what I thought was the wrong way. We went into as part of an international force there and without any clear objective, without any kind of proper armament for whatever it was we were to do. And I have been deeply impressed also with the fact that in Vietnam we asked about 560,000 American troops to commit their lives to a cause that we didn't think was important enough to win.

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We went in with no intention of winning. And we went in, uh, in a way that risk the lives of hundreds of thousands of Americans for a cause that was not important, at least not important enough for us to feel we had to win it. Uh, So I devised these criteria, and the first one was that we should only use our troops abroad when our own national security required it, Uh, when it was important enough to our whole survival and our security and the ability to maintain peace and freedom, and that if that was the decision and that was the case and the second criterion was we must go in with overwhelming force and with a clear intention of winning.

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And the third one was that we had to have completely achievable objectives and an arm and size the force to do that and then to keep reviewing the situation, see if it needed changes and, finally, that there should be some reasonable assurance of public support. I said, You can't fight the enemy abroad and Congress at home.

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It has to be some some kind of support for this and it's democracy. And that's only fair. The final one was that it used to force ought to be the last resort. So these were the six that I I applied. And when you do that, why, you see, at least I think that that Haiti, going into Haiti with the force we did violates practically everyone except except the third.

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We went in with overwhelming force. But for what? For what purpose? Uh was really terrible. And the troops were down there and they were asked the first few days. What was their mission? They didn't know. That's the complete violation of everything that we were ever taught in the military.

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And it resulted in our having to stand by and watch some more atrocities being committed and so on. I hope that we are able to get out and get out quickly, because I think that all the time we're there were at risk because it's virtually a terrorist kind of atmosphere and there are all kinds of them with guns, and a lot of them have melted off into the hills, and and so it's going to be a very a very dangerous, risky environment.

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You served yourself four years on active duty during World War Two or fought throughout the Pacific, and you served on General MacArthur's staff. I went in as they went as a private in the infantry and, uh, was assigned to the Pacific and was there well overseas Three years of the four and, uh in New Guinea and the Philippines and did work with General MacArthur.

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Another, another great experience must have been fascinating, but it was of use to you later on. It was it really was, and I think it's essential that people who hold those positions have an understanding of what military life is like, what it is like to be a soldier.

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I was an infantry private, and then I was a captain. I worked my way up to that. But I have a great feeling for the soldiers enlisted soldiers particularly. And I thought our first priority was always to take care of them and to make sure that morale and conditions for morale were high and that they had the proper weapons and and, uh, training and abilities to to do the things they want to do.

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This is a wonderful group of people, and and we all should be, I think are extremely proud of them. But I had seen right at the end of the war, uh, the great disfavor that the troops were held by the by the American people, and they took it out on the troops.

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I've seen troops coming home from Vietnam boot and on the docks of San Francisco, which was absolutely outrageous, very black period in our history. So we wanted to reverse that, and I think we did, and I I hope we'll have a commander in chief who understands and appreciates what a remarkable group of people.

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Uh, we have serving as if your guidelines are followed. We probably are involved, or it's much more difficult to be involved in wars, so there's probably fewer combat. It's probably much more likely that we will win or at least have a clarity of purpose. Ah, how do you respond to those that say, Look, um, it may not be a vital national interest, but we can do some good by sending our troops into Haiti.

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Well, that is exactly the point that I had in mind with the criteria. If we could do some good, uh, in the sense of helping to police the situation or something of that kind, then we ought to do it with a different kind of force. Uh, we shouldn't send in American forces risking their lives in combat or potential combat.

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Or we should get other nations to help, Uh, the idea that we used to hear all the time, the argument from our State department at that time that the very presence of American troops can help. And that was the thing that I objected to very strongly because I thought that if you if you use the troops in that kind of situation where you don't have a clear objective where you don't intend to win, you're asking them to risk their lives and in a way that I think is totally inappropriate and morally wrong.

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And I made up my mind, I would never do that. I think there are situations where we can be of some assistance, but I think those situations have to be ones that do involve our national interests. And I don't think A D is one of those.

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I've thought your guidelines were one of the most remarkable documents we've seen. I've introduced it as a resolution for US foreign policy and apply to both in Somalia and Haiti. But it seemed to me it addressed the problems in Somalia. As you know, the field commander had asked for armored personnel vehicles in Somalia has been turned down by the secretary of defense because he thought they would send the wrong political message and virtually the men that were killed in that helicopter crash.

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We're primarily killed because they ran out of bullets and we couldn't. It's what always happens when you when you call these things peacekeeping forces, which is one of the worst miss numbers there is, they usually sent the areas where there is no peace. When you do that, you don't equip them.

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You don't. They aren't armed or sized or are trained and normally for what they're asked to do in Somalia. We went in to feed hungry people, and I think that was fair enough. And we did it. But we should have left them. The United Nations persuaded us to stay for this thing called Nation Building, and we had that Annan equipped force, ill equipped force and no rules of engagement.

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And they were there just at the mercy of the warlords. A real tragedy occurred because we didn't really have any idea what it was we're doing. President's talked about sending troops into the former Yugoslavia. What are your thoughts? Well, I think that Yugoslavia, uh, is the first of all.

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It's a place where there has been the cockpit for a number of wars over the years. I think that there is a great risk to sending troops in under the present circumstances. I wouldn't do it because you have a curious United Nations chain of command. And again, they're not trying to do anything except two warring parties apart.

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And we're compounding it by keeping a boycott, which President Clinton said many times he lift on the victim on the Bosnians. I don't think we should send troops in now. I think we should certainly not keep urging the Bosnians to accept partition. We know the Forbes family has a gorgeous ranch in Southern Colorado.

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We do. We will see you come visit. Well, I would like to, and I would like also to tell you how much I admire your record in the in the Senate. It's a It's an extraordinarily good one. And I were very, very lucky to have you there.

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I feel very grateful for that. Thank you, Mr Secretary. Thank you for your good work. Thank you. Stay with us while we take this short break. We'll be right back. Yeah. Mhm. Okay. He protects all living things in the forest. Mm. But he can't do it alone.

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Mhm. Mhm. Please don't play with matches. Put out your camp fires. I never, ever forget the words of Smokey Bear. Only you can prevent forest fires. Mhm. Yeah. Senator Bob Graham is not only one of the most capable members of the U. S. Senate, but one of the most highly respected.

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In addition to that, he has the good judgment to have a brother who has a home in Vail. And what we've had trouble convincing Bob that when we say skiing, it means snow skiing. Waterskiing. Uh, he does get out to Colorado fairly often. Thanks for joining us Project.

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Thank you very much, Hank. And I, uh, appreciate this chance to be with you. And I want to say that I share exactly the same feelings about you and your service here that you were kind enough to tribute to me. Well, thank you. I I've been so impressed with the way you've stayed in touch with constituents.

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Uh, your work program where you go out, take a real job, I think every month. Don't you? Yeah. I started this 20 years ago. In fact, just had the 20th anniversary. Uh, I began teaching a semester of high school civics, uh, at a high school near my home, and, uh, from that experience, I got so much out of it, I found out that it's a lot different learning about education in the classroom and having somebody tell you about it.

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Uh, and the personal experiences with students with teachers with parents was so rewarding that I said I'd like to continue to do this. And, uh, I had my 289th worked a last month back in that same classroom, uh, teaching another day. Well, you're nice to join us today.

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I we wanted to focus a little bit on Haiti. I know you have been a strong proponent of helping to bring democracy to Haiti and specifically, uh, endorsing President Clinton's efforts to send troops, uh, share with us your thoughts as to why it's so important for the U.

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S. To be involved. Hank, let me divide that question. If I could into two parts, What is the United States national interest in Haiti And then second, why did I feel the willingness to use force was going to be necessary in order to protect those interests?

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We had a period of half century in which our interest were largely defined by who our enemies were. We fought the access during World War two and then for 45 years, the Soviet Union, in a Cold War, foreign policy was relatively easy. We asked the question where the contending forces on our side or the Soviet side, Uh, and that made the decision for us, whether it was in Angola, in Nicaragua or wherever around the world.

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Now we have a much more complex world for a less dangerous world, to be sure, but one with tremendous diversity. And so we're gonna have to ask ourselves, What are our national defining interest in this period? I think those interests one, uh, we'll have a heavy orientation towards the Western Hemisphere.

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Well, we will be looking to our allies in places like Europe to take the leadership. But the Western Hemisphere will look to us to take the leadership. Second will be democracy. It's very much in our interest that we have stable, predictable governments that will, uh Except, uh and promote, uh, increased political, cultural economic relations with the United States.

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We also have had a long term commitment from the beginnings of our country, the Declaration of Independence to the protection of human rights. Uh, those are the kind of issues that I think are uh, involved in the Haitian issue. Also, it's a situation as as the country of Haiti fell further and further into the abyss.

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The consequences of that were being felt directly on the United States, whether it was in refugees, increasing use of Haiti as a platform for drug trafficking or the number of Americans who were increasingly at risk in that violence society. So those were reasons which, in my judgment, made Haiti a national interest of the United States from my experience with the country, and I've been there a number of times, including twice in the last year.

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Uh, the military leaders were not going to leave voluntarily, that they would only leave when they felt they had no alternative. And I think that's exactly what happened when we mounted the credible threat of military force and then use that last negotiating period to drive the point home.

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Uh, and without the necessity of a military invasion, we were able to accomplish our purpose. Knock on wood that things continue to go as well in the next few weeks as they have in the last three. Florida's on the front line. You've had a large number of refugees come in.

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Will this solve part of that problem? I think it is the most fundamental solution. Refugee exodus is a symptom of intolerable conditions at home. Most people prefer to live where they were born, where their families live, where they have, uh, their history and contacts. It's only when conditions become unbearable that they will seek to leave.

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And so the most fundamental thing to resolve the refugee issue in Haiti is to resolve the other conditions that are forcing people into a refugee status. We find a real concern in the Senate, and I know in the country about risking people's lives. Our troops lives with a mission that's not as clearly defined and doesn't seem to have a clear end on it.

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What's your view of of the mission itself in the in Haiti? I think the mission in in Haiti, uh, is to provide an environment in which the democratic government can return and begin to function. It ought to be as short as possible that you and I both voted yesterday for the resolution that called for as prompted departure as possible.

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There are a number of factors that will affect when that can occur. One of those is the protection of our own troops. We don't want to get into a situation where we leave, uh, and leave behind some some of our people that may be in jeopardy.

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Another key part related to that first is when there will be a United Nations peacekeeping capability ready to come in and assume, uh, security. Now we're going to be part of that. Peacekeeping will probably represent a third to a half of the U. N. Peacekeeping corps, but it'll be more like 3000.

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US, uh, individuals involved primarily, uh, people performing police and security functions, as opposed to 20,000 combatants who are currently on the ground in Haiti. Some cynics would say What's different this time? Why will we be more successful this time in occupying Haiti than we were in the 19 years we did earlier in the century?

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Well, first hour period, there is going to be a much shorter one. Uh, the U. N. Peacekeepers have an exit date of the installation of the next president. President Aristide's term runs out in February of 1996. There'll be an election in the fall of 1995. And as soon as that new president is installed, the U.

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N resolution sanctioning peacekeepers expires. So we have a terminal date. We also are going to be doing this through most of the course of action, not unilaterally, but in a significant international context, including countries that are neighbors of Haiti, as well as countries from around the world that will be participating in this administration's talked about reprogramming, other money, taking money and other programs making it available to Haiti.

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Estimates run as high as 24 billion. What kind of cost do you expect this to involve? Military costs have been estimated in the range of 750 million to a billion dollars through the duration of the spring of 1996. Uh, economic cost. The United States and other nations, as well as the international financial community, have an economic plan with a price tag of approximately a million billion and a half dollars over the next five years, with the United States providing roughly a third of that cost.

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Uh, that's the general scale of what our financial commitments going to be. My own judgment is that if by doing that we can not only contribute to the stabilization, uh, in Haiti and the provision of some sense of a future that holds, uh, hope and optimism for the people of Haiti, but also to send a signal to the other fragile democracies in the Western Hemisphere Uh, that they would not be abandoned.

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I think that that is a very good investment for the United States and will pay some rich dividends in the future. Probably tried to provide a real leadership in this, and we look forward to having you visit Colorado more often. We hope you'll come to your brother's place.

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Say it's not, uh, tough to come out to visit those beautiful mountains. Uh, I wish we could make a trade and give you a couple of miles of coastline, uh, with some beautiful oceanfront. Uh, and if we could get one of your mountains comfort come this winter will think.

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But thanks for being with us. Can the U. S. B. A force for good? Of course it can. But occupying other countries may well be viewed with great hostility as well as with mixed results. The jury is still out on what the eventual outcome in Haiti will be the 19 years that we occupied it earlier in this century are, by most accounts, proved to be a disaster.

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Not only did the lasting reforms not take place, but the fact was, the efforts to promote democracy simply failed. Can we do better this time? I think all of us hope so. I remain concerned that it's not the role of the U. S. Military to end up being the international social workers or international policemen.

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There is a role for the US to play, but I think the military forces should be focused on winning wars with clear objectives, not simply occupying countries around the world. As we sort out the kind of role the U. S has the kind of role the US can afford in the post Cold War world.

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The discussion of what the military will be used for will remain one of its hottest topics. Thanks for joining us. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mhm. Mm.