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All right. Good morning. My name is Genesis. Sarah. Today is July 3rd. I'm sorry, july 4th, 2015 having dependency. But here it Suzanne Smith Goldstein talking about her experiences in the Panama Canal Zone. So thank you so much for agreeing to do this interview today. Thank you.

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Really appreciate it. So we could start by you telling me a little bit about one. And where were you born? Well, I was born in an con canal zone in, uh uh, the Gorgas hospital. Um, in 1947 s. I was basically born and raised in the canal zone.

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Lived primarily in the early years in Balboa. I went to ST Mary's Elementary School and then Bow Bow Elementary and Balboa High School. Okay, so tell me a little bit about your parents. How did they end up at the zone? My grandfather, Um oh, my grandfather.

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My father's side. My paternal grandfather moved down with his family around 1924 23 or 24. And like a lot of the other Pan Canal employees, um, the men would move down first, and maybe a few months later, the rest of family would come. And so our family was no different in that.

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And he moved down there for employment. Um, as a new electrician's in with the Panama Canal Company. My maternal grand parents also moved down there. Um, that same way, Except they moved later on. They moved, probably. Oh, I want to say early thirties. Um, my father was only four, and they moved from my paternal grandparents.

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Moved from Baltimore. My other grand parents moved from New Jersey. Um, my father was only four when they moved down there. And my mother, though it was about 14 or 15. So it was really the only home my father ever knew was in the canal zone.

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Was on. Okay. And then what did you see? Says you're you're to my grandparent's attraction. Yes. So what did your father do for employment at this? He was also became an electricity. Yeah, they had a apprentice programs there. And my My grandfather, um, started, um, you know, when the hit Panama Panama means abundance of fish and my grandfather, I guess coming from Baltimore already lived around water.

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And that's the just was the natural way down. There is a lot of people went fishing. Well, my my grandfather became a pioneer of big game fishing in Panama. And, you know, the first boat he had was some little boat that was kind of refitted. And then he got a larger boat that he kind of refitted, and it became a world known.

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And, uh, people from all over the world used Thio come to Panama to fish with my grandfather and my father and my my uncles. Um, so we did you know, a lot of people in the canals. A lot of employees got free trips every two years.

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You've probably heard this from, You know, the Panama Canal Company would give you free trips. However, we didn't take those because of all of this fishing. Ah, lot of our leave. Time was used in our family for fishing and s o I went back to the states when I was maybe a few months old.

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And then I went again when I was about seven. Uh, eso I just didn't have as much connection with the United States except for the very, very American analysis on that we lived in. OK, so then you did your mother work in the zone. My mother did work, You know, Um, both my parents and my grand parents were not wealthy people at all.

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They did go to Panama for employment. Um, my maternal grand parents. Probably because of the depression. My paternal grandparent's. It was before that, but it was still, you know, because they had a large family needed needed to make more money. So, um, they went down there, and my mother did work.

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Yes. What does she work, guys? Oh, you know, probably. You know, at that time, what could women you know, A lot of women secretarial office work. And she worked for the military down there, all right. And my father and two of my three uncles soon also became, um, world known, um, fishing guides and fishermen.

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And they hand built ah, 42 ft sport fishing boat in Panama behind the police station in Balboa. And it was quite, um, ahead of its time. It was about 13 years ahead of the history of sport fishing boats at that time. So it was a very unique boat.

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And that's what I grew up. Okay. What are your parents names? Um, my dad would be good to tell that my dad is Theodore was Theodore William Schmidt. My mother was Regina, uh, Mueller Schmidt. Her last name is Mueller. And so our family, our pictures and stuff, a lot of them were with fishing Now about me when I was young.

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Um, I also it involved myself in a lot of things that others own. Ian's did. I mean, we all you know, a lot of us were very tomboyish. I mean, you know, we ran around without shoes in the mud and the jungles, um, climbing trees when we were hungry, we climb the nearest tree.

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Thio eat whatever fruit was blooming at that time. So, um um, and a lot of us owned horses in the canal zone, and I was no exception. Um, excuse me. Um, so in my younger years, probably about 11 or 12, I got my my little what we called Panamanian bush pony.

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Very, very hardy, sturdy little little little ponies. And then I went on, and I got a thoroughbred that was retired from the Ramon racetrack, which was kind of typical down there, but I also did fish. Okay, so, um, it's a good life in the zone. I don't think there's anybody born and raised there who would have trade the kind of childhood we had.

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No locks on the door. Um, you know, when the street lights went on, that's when we went home so we could be gone for hours. Our parents never knew where we were. We could be in the jungle. I mean, especially when we had horses. We would go riding through the jungle.

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You know, I think about it here, you know, it's snakes and all that. We just had no fear. It was just kind of normal. And, um So we got to experience a lot of things that probably the kids today are not able to do except if they go into Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts.

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Although they had that zone also, but we just learned from by doing from our environment and those of us who had horses, um, seem to spend a lot more time in Panama itself. You know, there were a lot of zone Ian's that stuck to, you know, the parameters of the zone.

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But, um, I and and my group of friends that I grew up with, we didn't and we would go while the stables was not in Panama. It was in Corona new. Um, you could take your horses from there, and you could easily, you know, go into the jungles, which was the only barrier on DWI would go to rivers and things like that.

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We would also just freely walk into Panama. We just had No, there's no fear. We also used to go. We had a blacksmith at the stables called Cuba, and hey was from Cuba, and he was kind of our Oh, I guess you'd call him Jack. Of all trades.

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He was the Ferrier, which is used to shoe our horses. But he was also kind of our vet because we didn't have access two veterinarians, like would have up here, so he would take us, and we jumped in the back of his truck and we would go all through Panama, you know, we stopped at the bread factory and get bread.

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And we need to take us out to the racetrack. And, you know, it was very very, um I don't know. Um um just no fear. Fearless kind of, You know, childhood. Now maybe if our parents knew all the things we were doing, they might have said Wait, but so we kind of a lot of us had very much a dual culture thing.

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Um, some zone Ian's. And maybe they were the ones that were not born there. I don't know. Um, where they had more fear. Um, didn't do that. But we freely did. And even through high school and, you know, yes, we did go into the city, and yes, we did drink.

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Um, you know, it was It was It was wonderful. Okay, So what do you have, siblings? I do. I have a sister and a brother both born there. Okay. Who's the oldest? My sister is older, three years older and my brothers, about seven years younger. Okay.

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And would you did you will have the same group of friends Did you will play together or How's that? No. Well, it's funny. My sister had a group of friends and one of her close friends had a sister my age. So I was friends with the sister.

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You know, my sister was friends with her older sister, but my brother being seven years younger, um, you know, there wasn't anything close, but No, we kept pretty separated on. I'd like to say that my sister did, um, she had e, you know, kind of a different life than I did.

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And mainly because when I was 13, my father died. So, um, that really changed things. Because my mother worked for the military. We had to move from Balboa, and we had to move to Karen do because if you were employees of the military, you lived in certain places.

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If you were employees of the Panama Canal Company, you lived in other places, so we had to move, and then she married again, and, um, we kind of moved again, and we actually ended up living in Panama City. Um, after she remarried, she remarried in American, but he was American contractor, so it wasn't really an employee.

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Um, and eso I lived in three different places in Panama City and would go into the canal zone for school from there. So I had a little unique, um, childhood in that while we would go freely to Panama after my dad died and I lived in Panama City, I you know, I lived around, you know, the culture.

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So I really was in the dual culture. I take a local bus is home after school and things like that. Why would you supposed Thio What was the biggest difference? Do you going from the zone toe living in Panama City. Oh, what was the biggest difference?

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Um um well, I don't know it. Well, of course, being totally in the Panamanian culture, you know, and riding the bus through as a young, you know, very gringa, you know, blogged, you know, and hoping I could pronounce my Spanish correctly and things like that. But, you know, because by that time, I had spent ah lot of time in Tana Ma it really it really I don't know.

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It was okay, but the hardest part, of course, was that my father was dead and that I had a step Father and I had step sister and brother. But, um, it was great because we weren't living in in Pantanal housing anymore. When we first moved into Panama City with his new family, we lived in a very elite section of Panama City.

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He lived in out those little golf, and so to walk into this split level big house after being raised in tiny little Pan Canal housing. That was, I guess the biggest shot was Wow, look at this. They kind of had a rocky marriage. And that's why I say we leave three different places because they would split up when they get back together.

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So that was probably the most difficult. But this is probably a good time. Thio interject 1964 I graduated high school in 65. So in January of 64 we had what's commonly known as the flag issue. And, um, E did live. I was living in Panama City at the time and the flag issue as I knew it because I was at the flagpole.

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Um, it was really a demonstration against the US government. It was not a demonstration against Panama. Now there were people because of the flag issue that took advantage of it. A lot of zone IANs who made it their own issue. But the students issue was with the U.

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S. Government. The the the American flag used to fly at our high school. And, um, you know, Vietnam war was starting up and stuff, and there was a lot of there was a big nationalistic movement with the University of Panama at the time. And, you know, they wanted, you know, um uh, just have more of a what do I want to say?

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More? Yeah. And And so? So then they start talking about they wanted to. They wanted to fly the Panamanian flag. Um, in certain places in the zone and the US government and I think in part because they kind of were having their hands full with Vietnam and that whole thing starting up, that to kind of placate Panama, they said, Okay, you can fly the Panamanian flag alongside the American flag as certain designated spots in the zone, and they decided, and it was not our high school.

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They would not put up a second flagpole, and they took our flag down. Well, when you're raised, um, and you're told over and over again from birth that you're, you know, Americans on DWI do have because our parents were Americans on DWI, had ROTC at our high school, and we were very raw.

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Use a in the zone. Um, you know, it was like small town America where there was a parade for everything but a parade for everything. Us. So here you have all that. And, um, we didn't mind the academy and flags flying, but give us another flagpole.

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Aren't we good enough for you to put up a second flight poll? So it was really, um um, uh, kind of very distasteful for the students there. So there was a group of students that decided they were going to raise the American flag up the flagpole on make an issue of it now in the canal zone, If any kids ever gotten too much trouble or raise anything, they could get shipped off to the States or their parents would be shipped off, they would be fired and shipped out.

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So for the canal zone students to stand up and raise the flag, the flag up the pole was really, you know, very unique. Because not only could they get in a lot of trouble, but their parents could really So I forget. I think it was three days, and I remember one morning as I was going out to go into the zone to go to school, remember I told you my father had died and my father had been in the navy and when he died and he's buried in cars.

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All cemetery down there, which is now a U S. Um, cemetery that they have Monument Cemetery that they have, you know, all over the world. But his burial flag because he had a flag over his coffin, his barrier flag was still folded in my mom's closet.

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You know, it had been there for how many years? 34 and a Zai left. I grabbed the flag, didn't ask my mother. I took because every day as we raised the flag, they you know they would come down and they would somehow get us off of the flagpole.

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I wasn't really stationed at the flagpole. It was really the guys. But we all would go there until school started. And, you know, some would somewhat skip school and everything, but I know they were were taking flags down every day. So I grabbed my father's burial flags.

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You knew that it was going on. I knew, and you took your father. That's why I took it, okay? And it went because it was a burial flag was very large, and I knew that my father would not mind. I had no idea what my mother would say on She never did say anything.

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Um, but it was It was kind of, you know, making a statement and, of course, was taken down. And, of course, I never saw it again, but that really didn't bother me. Um, so the last day on January 9th, the big day, Um, of course we were.

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We were in the school, and we heard that the the university students were marching into the zone and they tried to lock us up in the library. Um, and I'm not sure how we how I got down. But I remember climbing out the bathroom window with a couple of friends and we climbed down, went to the flagpole.

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So I was there, right at the flagpole, not up around it, but down. And they had they had the police, um, you know, kind of a za line between the students and the university. Students came up and they came up and they wanted to put the Panamanian flag up, and more or less, they were told, that's fine.

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But you have to put it under the American flag because, as you know, the American flag could never fly below another flag. That's why the two flagpoles. And they, of course, said no. No, probably because, I mean, they had issues, too. I didn't know at the time whether they had, but most countries you don't flag country.

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You don't fly a countries flag under another country's flag. So No, no, no. We want ours. Uptake yours down. No, this is not your issue. This is our issue. This is not about not having your flag. This is about us not being worthy for them to put up and build a second bite poll.

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This is an anti US demonstration. They would have no part of it. As they turned and left, I could still see it today. They dragged their flag on the ground. There was no skirmish. There were words, no skirmish to make police officers there. They dragged the flag and they stepped on it.

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Their flag, their own flag. So when they say that their flag was ripped in a scuffle don't know. All I know is that they stepped on their flag. There was no scuffle at the flagpole. Now, as they left way didn't follow them. But as they left, they started breaking things, lights and whatever.

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Um, um, I you know, I understand why they would take advantage at that time because of their nationalistic movement. But what? People have to know what I've told many Panamanians because they're not taught this in school, and they have taped me. Also, um, that this was because they're not told that it was an anti us demonstration and it had to do with taking our flag down.

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Not with not putting. There's a penalty and flag up. So But as they left, they started breaking things and whatever now, and there might have been a scuffle later on. But it was not a scuffle at the flagpole. I don't know of any any any Arizonians who scuffled with them who tor their flag.

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But I do know that they dragged their flag because I was right here and they were right there, and they stepped on it. Andi, I thought that was you know, it was like So, um, So then you know, all the riot started because by that time, word of mouth and everything the Panamanians were amassing at the street because we didn't have fences, Okay?

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They were massing in the street, and then all the riot started. Whatever. Well, I never got home again because I lived in Panama City and find the city was completely yes. Cars were being overturned. Americans couldn't go. And, you know, here I was. So my mother was in the zone.

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In fact, I had gone from the school. I had called her from the school. No, I take it back. Um, it was actually before the crawling out of the window. Must have been one of the days. Must have been earlier in that day because I was up with the clubhouse waiting for my mother to pick me up.

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We were gonna go home to Panama, and she came up and I had heard Got to get back to the school because the Panamanians are, you know, the university students are coming back to school. So she drove up and I said, Mom, go up to she had friends that we used to go stop and see, um, in the canal zone.

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Before we went back to Panama, I said, Go up there. I'm going back to the school. She said Okay. So I went back to the school, and that's when I went to the flagpole and whatever, but but one of the other days, I must have crawled out the window where earlier that day, when they tried to lock us up.

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So, um, so anyway, I never got home. My mother was still in the canal zone. My sister Waas um, already away. She was in the States in college, so she didn't even experience this. And, um, I went and stayed with a girlfriend that night. My mother stayed with the people she was with.

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My brother was in, was in our home in Panama with the with the Made with the housekeeper who had been with us for for years. And so he was in Panama City. We were in the zone and I stayed with a friend and we just never got home again.

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It was, they kept telling my mother is too dangerous for an American woman with two kids because they were She was separated now from my stepfather to go back into the zone. So we had to hire a private detective to go into Panama to bring out my brother and Ana and on a was a big, tall woman and um they came out with this private detective, I think, in a cab.

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And she wore a big skirt. And my brother hid under the skirt because my brother was very blond little boy, and he was only about, let's see, 56 maybe seven, 78 Something like that. And she hit him under her skirt. So then we were all in the zone, but we had no place to live.

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So when, um again, when people employees in the Panama Canal Company would get these free trips in states now, this happened in January. So we live with I lived with. I had no close, by the way. I know close. That was interesting, too. But for three months, I lived with a girlfriend on by Mom and my brother lived with some other people, so I didn't.

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It wasn't even with my mother. And but then people started going to the States for there to three month vacations so they would go the States, and we move into their homes and we've called vacation quarters, so we would live in other people's homes. So after about a year, um, you know, they said, it's still you really shouldn't.

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We probably could have moved back into Panama, you know, in retrospect. But, um, but as, ah, single woman with two kids, um, she just didn't want to risk it because they were saying it still is probably still too dangerous and whatever. So we finally gave it up and moved to the States in February of 65.

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Okay, so we're gonna have to backtrack a little here because we've covered a lot of information. I haven't even told you about the fishing yet. Okay. I wanted, Like what? Because you mentioned a little bit about your father Is passing away. Like what? The impact that that really have on your life.

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Oh, everything. You know, everything okay? You know, and they had that change. It is a relationship between your mom and your sisters. Well, yeah, a lot of it was probably more of how How did it affect my brother and I with my sister? Because I was 13 and my sister was 16, So ah, year later, um, when mom remarried.

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So my sister only had probably a year, year and a half in the zone before she left. And she had a boyfriend of many years, So, um and she couldn't handle, um, stepfather. Whatever. So my sister actually moved out and lived with her boyfriend's. Her boyfriend's in the states in college.

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So she moved out with him with his parents. I should say so. I didn't have my sister. So I then became kind of the keeper of my brother because I was kind of the older. So it impacted me, You know, many ways it was, of course, my my father was a what I call a bigger than life person because of this fishing.

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He was all of the Schmidt, the Schmidt men from my grandfather to three of the four Schmidt sons. We're all known. I mean, we had we had celebrities, We had Royals. We had people from all over the world. And but he was a He was just My father was just a well liked man.

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So, um, So I didn't just lose a father. I looked this'll Father was just doing all these, you know, great things. And I was 13. I had not girls give up. They kind of go through and they give up their fathers for boys. I had not done this a few months before my father died.

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Uh, for my birthday, I got my own, um, deep seed, trolling rod and riel. So I was getting ready to kind of be the next big Schmidt fisherman, I guess because I enjoyed it. Now, my my sister, while she says she enjoyed fishing, not like I did.

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You know, um, eso it didn't. And I never saw my rod really again. After my father died, my uncle, my father owned the boat. My uncle took the boat over after my dad died, and I guess my Ron real was on the bone. I just never saw it again.

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So it did. It impacted me in many, many different levels. Um, um, you know, because there's no illness, So we're just in the middle of the night kind of drop dead from a heart attack. So, you know, it's like, you know, the light switches on the light switches off.

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And my brother was only five years old and, um, you know, and it was tough. Mom tried to remarry, and, um, she thought all marriages air good. Well, that didn't quite happen. Do you think e right about that? Because from what I've heard from mama. Canals on mostly all married couples.

00:31:57.640 - 00:32:16.410

Yeah, very fine. With dynamics. Yes, there she is. A single room with girls. Exactly. Have a pressure on her to be married? Probably. Yeah, that too. That, too. You know, she probably became a brief threat, you know, because she was a very attractive woman, too. And and she was young.

00:32:16.410 - 00:32:36.950

My father was 41 when he died. So my mother was still in her late thirties, so Yes, there was that, Um um yeah, but once we lived in Panama and they split up my stepfather. Whatever. That wasn't a zbig of a problem in this canal zone, though.

00:32:36.960 - 00:32:55.780

Yes. Yeah. Do you still have? Did you still maintain it really close relationship with your father's family after he passed away? Like, did you still go spend time with your uncle? You know, not as much. Well, yes, some, but not as much. Because we always you know, I had a lot of family, um, in the canal zone.

00:32:55.790 - 00:33:19.350

My mother did not have any siblings, but my father had three brothers and three sisters. So every Thanksgiving, Christmas and all of that big family get together. So yeah, that was kind of lost. Ondas. I said I didn't have my sister And what it did for me, though, the upside of it is, you learn to survive.

00:33:19.640 - 00:33:45.060

Bond is kind of a sink or swim. And it made me much stronger because you can either decide to go on with life or you can keep in the pit, you know, in the negative and the whatever. And, um um you know, the the Schmidts. We're well on both sides of very strong independent people.

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Anyway, I think a lot of zone IANs who gave who just moved from another country down to the canal zone had to have a certain amount of strength. And so I became, you know, um, really strong. And I learned to be much more independent. And you also learn you only have yourself.

00:34:06.830 - 00:34:23.180

Yes. Um, you were talking about your housekeeper, Ana. Yes, Yes. Oh, but she from Panama. She was from Panama, but she was from a little island. A Z. I remember, and I can't remember the name of it, but I believe it was a little island off of Costa Rica.

00:34:23.140 - 00:34:48.100

Okay, but it was owned by Panama and eso. The problem I had with Ana was that her husband was actually a Canal Zone employee. He was a fireman. And so I would always say on a please speak Spanish to me because I need I need to learn Spanish and No, no, no.

00:34:48.100 - 00:35:14.520

I want to improve my English So she wouldn't speak Spanish to me. And so Spanish never became, um, fluent for me. Although I had Spanish everywhere in school, especially in ST Mary's. We had Spanish, and I don't know if the Canal Zone Elementary School has but but I always had Spanish every every grade e least up through middle school.

00:35:14.520 - 00:35:30.160

And then if you decide to take it in high school. But so that was the problem I had. Now I knew I could understand a lot of Spanish, and I spoke some Spanish. Um, but then after I left, I didn't go back to Panama for 34 years.

00:35:30.170 - 00:35:55.860

So and Spanish was always our second language because Ana wouldn't speak it. It never got really, you know, natural conversation. So on with Anna and your home, where she cooked American dishes or Panamanian dishes, I felt was that cultural exchange like, um, she would Well, she would cook.

00:35:56.540 - 00:36:29.520

We had a lot of fish way, but no, she would, um, she would cook whatever. Probably more American Andi. She only cooked during the week. And on Saturday, it always seemed like, um well, it seemed like Friday was fish Friday night. So if we had people over whatever dad would do a big fish fry or something, Saturday seemed to be always, um, um, steak on the grill.

00:36:29.530 - 00:36:47.490

And then Sunday, we either went to the one of the yacht clubs Peter McGill, Pedro Miguel Yacht Club, and they had big Asian cook, and it was wonderful, or we would have chicken. So during the week, auto would cook, but on but probably a lot of American food.

00:36:47.500 - 00:37:06.060

And whenever we cook like fish dishes, you know, I go in the kitchen and honor, we would be in there kicking the cooking, the heads and the tales. Right. And I said, I e don't want that. I want this kind of creole, you know, with red sauce and stuff and eating the eyes of the fish and stuff, you know?

00:37:06.060 - 00:37:27.470

So, um, then she used to cook for a lot of boat trips on, and she would pre cook it. And I guess they freezer they put in the refrigerator for the boat or something. But so, yeah, it was probably Mawr mawr American, But I would see her cooking stuff, you know, it tasted and all.

00:37:27.480 - 00:38:06.340

And, um and she would have, you know, some of the other, um, maids would come over. And, um, you know, it's sometimes they'd be in the kitchen nursing their babies. I don't know who they were, how they had a baby at work, but you know so But we were very way only had we had Rosa when I was really young and we had Ana and Ana started working for us, and she was fairly young, and she became, especially after my dad died, she became way thought it was a member of the family.

00:38:06.350 - 00:38:23.470

And while before my dad died, you know, um, we called the maids, and today I don't like to use that terminology, but that's what we call them, like I kind of would prefer to call them housekeepers, but, um, she would never sit down at the table with us.

00:38:23.720 - 00:38:44.900

But after dad died, And then after my mom was alone again after she and my stepfather split up way would have honest a table with us. I mean, you know, and I have seen her a few years ago. I went. I found her in Panama. Yeah, it was great.

00:38:44.910 - 00:39:01.220

It was wonderful. It was wonderful. She was like my second mother. You know, she really she really took care of my mother after my dad died, but she she was young. I think she was only in her early twenties when she started working for us. On by.

00:39:01.220 - 00:39:26.340

Brother was my brother was not born yet, and, um, she just she kind of kind of grew up with us to she had some problems in her marriage, and but she did say, married a long time. And then later on, after we went back to the States, she ended up going to California and working for very, very wealthy family in California.

00:39:26.350 - 00:39:49.490

And we would write and stuff, and then she ended up back in Panama. I think back with her ex husband, Wilfred, but yeah, it was kind of neat. Um, I don't know how many of my other friends um had some of the other, um, working women in the neighborhood in nursing their babies in the kitchen.

00:39:49.500 - 00:40:06.830

I don't know, but it it was It was normal for you. It was normal. Yeah. Do you think that she might have felt like, you know, So a little bit the pressure to just speak English? Because I was still her job? No. Maybe. Okay, she just wanted to practice her English.

00:40:06.830 - 00:40:27.170

She just remember her husband. Waas a fireman. Okay, for the Panama Canal Company. So then did she lived with all that? She lived with her husband. Where does she live? No, she did not live with us. Okay. In fact, when we when she started working for us, my grandmother, my grandparent's on my mother's side.

00:40:27.180 - 00:40:51.450

When they retired, they lived with us. And when ana came to work for us, we were my grandmother had already died and my grandfather was actually living in a lot of the houses had maids quarters, and my grandfather actually was living in the maid's quarters and gave him some independence to come and go, Um, on a never never lived with us.

00:40:51.460 - 00:41:10.180

Although when we lived in Panama, their recorders and she could decide to come and go if she decided. You know, it wasn't like, you know, when she did stay there that we called on her all night. That wasn't the relationship at all. Um uh, In fact, some types that we lived in Panama City.

00:41:10.180 - 00:41:27.320

Sometimes I see her, and she should go back, and she'd be all dressed up because she was going out in the town, you know? And, um but I loved her. I loved her. Like like another mother. You know, she was wonderful. Okay, on Ben. Let's start going back to high school.

00:41:27.330 - 00:41:47.870

Yes. So you start high school in the 1961. I did. Okay. What are your? No, actually, 62 2345 60 to 62. Okay, so also is three years. 234 I'm sorry, E s o water were your first impressions when you started high school. Like that first year.

00:41:47.880 - 00:42:08.720

You know, um, because it was a big change. Your father had just passed away, and then you start high school. You're living in kind of a city, you know it za little bit of a blur. Okay, but I have Thio in the middle of all this you talk about Well, I'll start this way.

00:42:08.730 - 00:42:32.880

Um, when my mother remarried and we moved into Panama City, and then a few months later, they split up on whatever. And then they got back together. We actually left the canal zone. We left Panama, and I did get a notion voyage, but not on the Panama Canal company boats.

00:42:32.880 - 00:43:03.460

Because my stepfather did not work for that. We went up on a English cruise liner of some sort. So I did live in Florida for and went to high school. Um, my sophomore year in Florida. We hated living in the United States. Why not Panama? Not the same thing.

00:43:03.470 - 00:43:32.110

Couldn't really. You know, it just wasn't, um, you know, I can't pinpoint. Um it wasn't home, you know, one of the gentleman that interviewed to something, I really stuck with me. He said that the canal zone could have been put in any place in the world, but it being in Panama gave us something special that Pana Panama added a kind of extra element to it.

00:43:32.120 - 00:44:02.930

Well, it did. And you know e Yeah, probably, though, probably, though the canal zone had been placed. Not a military base, but the canal zone have been placed because I've lived, I've lived. I've lived in Europe to for a couple of years. And if the canal zone had been placed in another country, you probably would have had the same the same dual cultural thing going on.

00:44:03.290 - 00:44:27.120

Would you have had a safe of a childhood? Don't know, you know. So that was what I was thinking was so special. You know, the Panamanian people, by nature, are non violent people. Not so some of the other Latin American countries. And not so with what happened in Colombia.

00:44:27.090 - 00:44:47.590

But just by nature and probably also Costa Ricans, you know, they're just not there non violent by nature, by culture. So now that's not to say that there are some factions now and things going on, but so it was just maybe that's what made it unique was the Panamanian people.

00:44:47.600 - 00:45:23.320

Um um, Now there are a lot of Zonen's that don't feel this way. Okay, We had way a lot of us Fielder. Like two groups of Zone Ian's, there was a group that never left the zone Rah rah Yusa and thumbs down anything Panamanian. I don't know how many of them are coming in and giving oral histories, but they didn't step foot in and they didn't have Ah, good word or a kind word to say about a Panamanian.

00:45:23.690 - 00:45:45.390

That's the fax. Then there were the group, the others that I, you know, all my friends. Yeah, we And you know, it must come from your parents. And, you know, as they said, my family, they fished. They had they had mates on the boat that they trained and they were locals.

00:45:45.400 - 00:46:12.850

And, um, my family just didn't have that kind of prejudice, and and and it carries over. And because my my family, we're always going all through Panamanian waters, Colombian waters, I mean on these boats, going up and down the Pacific and stuff. But, you know, and they fished with a lot of the you know, Panama had fishing clubs and they fished with it.

00:46:12.860 - 00:46:37.260

We just didn't have it. So there really were kind of two different zone Ian's and yeah, And then So you've returned to Panama s. So we hated it. We returned to Panama and again back into Panama City. That's why I lived three different places. Eso I was back in high school.

00:46:37.270 - 00:47:00.120

Um, it wasn't so strange after my dad, you know, go into high school. I mean, going to high school was strange in itself, but because the schools were always there and they're close together, you know, I left ST Mary's, um, elementary, parochial school after fifth grade, and I went to Balbo Elementary.

00:47:00.170 - 00:47:20.740

That made more of a of impact because I like to say it was like I was led out of a cage, you know? So I went to Babble Elementary one year, and then I went to junior junior high school. So half of my junior high school waas in that elementary school upstairs on.

00:47:20.750 - 00:47:36.800

Then we had this other building that was right next to the high school that was also used for the junior high. So we were all kind of the schools were there, and then the last half of my of my junior high was in Deauville of junior high.

00:47:37.180 - 00:47:57.020

So I was already moved. I had already moved through So high school, I was back at that. Just the bigger building. Okay, so that didn't impact me. So your family is Catholic. Yes. Okay. E was raised Catholic. You're raised Catholic. Sorry you on. How did that?

00:47:57.030 - 00:48:12.480

Because, you know, most of Panama is Catholic. So was it, You know, very simple, you know? Oh, yeah, it was I mean, you also felt more like you belonged because, you know, you're catholic in a Catholic country, you know, I don't know how others felt, but Yeah.

00:48:12.490 - 00:48:34.920

Okay. Alright. Um, let's okay, not going back to 64 under rise. Okay? From what I understood, um, before President Kennedy, President Kennedy passes away. Remember that day? Vividly. Okay, I was on a TV, a local Panamanian bus. Okay, I heard about those. Yeah, well, I was in.

00:48:34.920 - 00:48:50.650

I was in e think, English class. I forget what class When they announced he had been shot, but it was at the end of the day, so I was actually riding the local chief a home. I lived in Panama City when the news came that he had died on.

00:48:50.660 - 00:49:14.540

Let me tell you, every Panamanian on that bus was crying. I mean, it was as devastating to the Panamanians as it Waas to the Americans, probably because he was Catholic and he was also I considered maybe, but I considered, you know, Ah, great president, but too short, you know, But yeah, it was, you know?

00:49:14.560 - 00:49:45.200

Well, remember I said that before he passes away, he states that the U. S. Flag will fly along along to the Panamanian flag. Got all non military sites in the canal zone. How was that decision by him? Taken at receipt of his own? Well, I'm not sure if if if I think that was well, remember, we had two factions of people s, so I'm sure the other factions really couldn't stand that.

00:49:45.210 - 00:50:05.460

And that faction, also during this flag issue, took advantage. Just like the university students took advantage of this of this protest. So did they. Did they Anti Panama anti, You know, that whole thing And I I think that's where the confusion comes in with the Panamanians today.

00:50:05.470 - 00:50:25.870

Also, the Panamanians like to teach as every country does. They teach what they you know. So they presented it that everyone in the zone was anti Panama. I'm a dual citizen. I'm a Panamanian citizens today. So And I was my father's flag, went up that flagpole.

00:50:25.870 - 00:50:43.240

So, um, that's but you had people taking advantage of it. Um, so I don't I think it was the governor. I'm not sure if it was after Kennedy died, Who made the decision or if it was the governor? It was governor Farming decree stating that the U.

00:50:43.240 - 00:51:05.070

S flag in the Panamanian flag pronounce on, but he picked the spots he picked. He picked the spots. Okay. Exactly. So when his decision came out, it wasn't How was that received? Well, that's why that Z because they took down we had. How do you How do you have ROTC when you're marching around with the flag and everything?

00:51:05.080 - 00:51:26.850

How do you have ROTC when the flag isn't even flying at the high school? So it was really a slap in the, you know, It's like it was like your world citizenship in the way. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. First, tell you this, tell you this in perpetuity, and they tell you this your and then you're not worthy of the flag.

00:51:26.860 - 00:51:42.400

So it was a big issue. Okay, Andi, I have read to that. There was some parents that supported the students with the flags like they were there that they agreed with their decisions of what they were, what they were doing. Okay, so that was also true.

00:51:42.410 - 00:52:10.440

Yeah, there were lots of, but they Then again, there was that other faction use it on. And some of the support was anti Panama support They were the sport of. We want the flag. We don't want Panama's flag. So you did have that. But that's not what the The main purpose of that, um, demonstration was about.

00:52:10.450 - 00:52:31.560

So you have mentioned that the time the Panamanian students were having a nationalist movement. What? What is your opinion on their thoughts That the canal zone that the canal should have been should be transferred to Panama? Yeah, well, that came a little bit. That came later on my first, my initial response.

00:52:31.570 - 00:52:57.490

When you know Carter is gonna give it my initial response. Waas My whole family, with the exception of my mother, my mother was still alive. But my whole family is buried in Panama. Uh, they loved the place. It was there. They felt their country too. And give me one second.

00:52:57.490 - 00:53:27.640

Sorry. Continuing. But Suzanne's interview eso eso My initial reaction was, uh Well, it was kind of a lot of different emotions. But my first was My whole family is buried down there. Cortisol cemetery. What's gonna happen to them? So, um, I started calling, and I remember one day because, you know, when you call, you tell how many I'm going.

00:53:27.640 - 00:53:51.190

You know, my father and my grandfather, my other grandfather. You know, I'm going down the list and whatever. And so one day I get a call from in general from the Pentagon. That was that was kind of interesting. Who assured me that it was going to become a national cemetery and, you know, So once I do that because a lot of you know, we had the option to move the bodies to the States.

00:53:51.550 - 00:54:17.650

I did not want that. My family didn't want that. They wanted to be buried there. This was this was their home. This is eso. As soon as I found out that it was going to be preserved in whatever, I was fine as faras feelings. It was, um um could I You know, it's like your home is being given away.

00:54:18.580 - 00:54:56.860

Could I ever go back? You know, I was really okay with it. Um, you know, we were taught, though in school that it was US soil in perpetuity. So But because of the flag, maybe because of the flag issue because of what they did to us, telling us then that we're not worthy of just the expense of a second flight poll that it was almost like Here they go again.

00:54:56.870 - 00:55:31.750

You know that they're telling us one thing, and then they do another thing. And whatever it was maybe Maura, about that I was never upset. Um, I didn't for many different reason was not able to go back to Panama for 34 years. And I went back for the last graduating class of Balboa High School, even though I didn't technically, um, graduate from there, I went as an alum nine.

00:55:31.760 - 00:55:57.570

And I actually got a diploma that day from the Department of Defense. So I do have e do have my diploma from about from BHS. But I went back there and of course, things had already started changing. And But when I go back and my group of friends go back, we don't go back and get sad at the houses that air changing.

00:55:58.640 - 00:56:28.660

We don't get sad at the canal zone, changing the buildings, the usage of things that doesn't make us sad because we had such great memories and our memories were of what went on in the Canal zone. But what went on in Panama? So when I went back to Panama for the first time in 34 years for five days with 12 other of my classmates, I cried for five days.

00:56:31.030 - 00:57:00.160

It was sensory overload. It was the music, the smells, the food, everything about Panama. It wasn't about a building that I lived in or a building that had a club house or a building that had a movie theater. It was about my life. It was about everything.

00:57:00.170 - 00:57:25.330

Every sensory thing that you experience, which is food and music and smells and birds. And you know so again there are two factions. My sister is completely opposite she when she goes back. She is sad that the canal zone, the structure of the canal zone, has changed.

00:57:25.340 - 00:57:55.060

Eso I went back in May of 1999 cried for five days, had a great time by September. Now I have been back in 34 years. By September, I was back with a girlfriend getting my dual citizenship. So, um e get some metal. It's okay. Um, but I can't go home.

00:57:55.530 - 00:58:25.100

E did go home anytime I want. You know, it still is my home, But there are two factions and there are a lot of people that don't feel like that. And I just maybe, you know, everybody reacts differently to different things, and maybe it's that having to survive my dad dying and all those things I don't know, but I have girlfriends whose fathers didn't die and and even male friends who look at it the same way.

00:58:25.110 - 00:58:48.500

It's not about the buildings and the structure of the canal zone, because there were no fences on the canals. Um, you made the fences, so we didn't have fences. You know, the people that I hung around with were of all like minds. But you do have the other faction now a say my sister gets sad Now.

00:58:48.510 - 00:59:07.260

My sister did go into Panama on day, would go in there, and they would do it. All the other high school kids didn't dance and everything, but But she does get sad about the structure of the canals. Oh, God. Let's go. I don't I don't. You know so.

00:59:08.220 - 00:59:30.590

But my sister was an anti Panama. But there were also some people that were very limited themselves. And, you know, so we all had a little different experiences. I think down there, E it speaks Civil kit e guess the complexity of the severity of things that were going on.

00:59:30.600 - 00:59:51.770

Yeah, And the impacts, you know, like she did lived, she wasn't moving around. She didn't go to the States and then go back to Panama on so she didn't have to. She didn't have to recognize the feeling of having to leave home, you know, like after ninth grade.

00:59:51.780 - 01:00:05.830

And we all knew that when we're going to go to college. Well, you could go to college down there when I was in college, But most people left and they went to school in the States, and you just knew that was coming. And that's exactly what she did.

01:00:05.840 - 01:00:31.290

But there I was, thrown in and sophomore, you know, in high school, and I was living in a foreign land because in our family we didn't go back and forth as often as a lot of the other kids. So We didn't like it, so we went back to Panama, But she didn't have that experience, so Okay, So what about your brother?

01:00:31.290 - 01:00:55.950

What does he feel about? And I know he was a lot younger. He's a lot younger, but he was born there. And, you know, I keep telling him to get his dual citizenship. I don't think my sister she has no real desire to get that. Um, my daughter does want to get hers on, and my daughter does want to get hers.

01:00:55.950 - 01:01:11.300

And I've been trying to get hers. Um, she has been there, and she loves it. Eso Can you tell me a little bit about I want to know a bit about your life. So, like, create jobs that you had. I don't know if you have Children.

01:01:11.300 - 01:01:41.140

You know, your husband, like, crowded. Those things come into play. It's a little bit about you. A little bit about me. Well, after after moving to the states and going to, um, four months of my senior year graduating from a school in ST Petersburg, Florida, 60 islands high on guy Went to safety Junior college after that, actually married a local from the high school.

01:01:41.140 - 01:02:04.370

I went graduated from up here, and, um and that's when I went to live in Italy for two years, stationed there with the army, which was wonderful. But having lived, born and raised in another country, it was easy. You know, it was just easy. So I've lived.

01:02:04.380 - 01:02:21.240

And then I was divorced after about 11 years, but we had a daughter, and I'm remarried for a lot of years now, and we live still live in Florida. I did finally get my college degree after I put my previous husband through seven years of school.

01:02:21.200 - 01:02:42.220

Um, but so it was all of those kinds of things that, um, reasons why I didn't get back to Panama for 30 40 years. Now I go back at least once a year. And have you been back with your daughter? I have. Well, is that, like, Great?

01:02:42.230 - 01:03:05.790

Okay. Yeah, that's great. Okay, It's like showing her the place that you grew up with. Your now I would if we have some time. I would like Thio to bring in back in the fishing. Yeah, go ahead. Because, um a Zay said my grandfather started it after after the second boat.

01:03:05.800 - 01:03:26.600

They then built this super duper sport fishing boat ahead of its time. And, um, they were known throughout the world. If you wanted to go catch Marlin, Okay? You had to go to Panama, but you had to fish with Schmitz. So they were pioneers and tackle in techniques, boats, you name it.

01:03:26.610 - 01:04:12.010

They were, um, discovers of the great Marlon potential of Penis bay Panama. Um, they, you know, we had every every many different celebrities and things we had Clark Gable on our boat. You're kind of Yeah. I don't know if you remember Clark Gable, RK but but we also had the King Leopold of Belgium and his wife or he was exiled at the time, but he did go back in after, but yeah, Lily Anne, um and, you know, we just so a little bit about me, though, Um, And the fishing.

01:04:12.790 - 01:04:37.560

My father died when I was 13. Remember? I got that. Ron really wasn't able to go out and catch a big fish. So after I went back in 99 in 2000, I went down to Penis Bay to catch my marlin, which I did, but that kind of opened a a little bit of interest.

01:04:37.560 - 01:04:53.720

Remember? I was young when my dad died, and everyone thinks their dad is great. Well, hopefully everyone thinks their dad is great and, you know, and he seemed bigger than life and all that. So I one time was in Miami and I went to the I g f A headquarters and they had moved.

01:04:53.720 - 01:05:31.620

Actually, they moved to Daytona, Florida. And it was their library was all computerized, and I put in Schmidt and I put in Panama at the big fishing library, Right? Nothing came up that started me on a quest that took about 14 years And what I did waas, um, read everything, took my stuff, read books, worked with the library in down there and referencing every mention of the Schmidts and fishing of every article, book and whatever that I could find.

01:05:32.180 - 01:06:03.450

And by doing that and reading what other people had written about my family, but about my dad, I got to know my dad as an adult, which is which, which kind of helped feed the research because the more I read about it, the more I realized that not only was he you know, a great man.

01:06:03.450 - 01:06:28.630

He was bigger than life. What people wrote about him. He was just a really good, fine, wonderful man. Uh, and so anyway, I went into all this research, and when I did, because from family history and knowledge, I knew that they were the best at the time.

01:06:28.920 - 01:06:51.200

But then again, I didn't have all of the references and stuff to back it up. So as I went along and I did this in the catalog did whatever. I then nominated them mhm into the Hall of Fame into the Hall of Fame. So, um, they finally were inducted.

01:06:52.080 - 01:07:44.580

Um, October 28th, 2014. I'm so happy you have that fear that e got to accept that one of your followers we have. Yeah, that's really special. It iss um Oh, but now I have to finish this book that I started. Excuse my voice. My goodness, I don't know if I'm losing it now and then with this emotion, but, um yeah, and they So they really made a big impact in this country that they adopted because while they while they fished out of the zone and their boat was at the Balboa Yacht Club.

01:07:44.590 - 01:08:12.910

They were. They also ran marlin tournaments and everything. And they ran these hand in hand with the local Panamanians that, um, they would have to be as Panamanians. They had to be wealthy. Toe have the boats in the canal zone. Not so much. I mean, the boats they had first they retrofitted.

01:08:12.920 - 01:08:34.340

It was some old navy boat that they didn't need, and they would just and then the hand built this other one. So, um um, but my parents went freely into Panama because a lot of the events were held by all these Panamanians who fished, you know, at the at the El Panama.

01:08:34.340 - 01:09:02.800

And, you know, there were the Abernathy family that they still own tackle shops and things down there and just a lot of different, um, Panamanian families. So, um, they really they really did impact, you know, important. So I just have a couple more questions for you running of the out of time.

01:09:03.270 - 01:09:32.300

I wanted to eggs. What's so special about this community that you keep coming back to these reunions? Yeah, that is an interesting question. You know, before I would come to some of these reunions before I went back 34 years and I really didn't enjoy them. E enjoyed seeing some my friends, of course, but I really I really couldn't enjoy it after I went back in 99.

01:09:33.170 - 01:10:00.690

From that time forward, I now enjoy it because it all it because one, I could go home and I know why. I mean, now you know it, Z Anyone born in the States, you can culturally get us things anywhere. Get a hamburger or anywhere you know, all those things.

01:10:00.740 - 01:10:27.610

But you can't get Panamanian stuff anywhere in the States. And I think it took. And while intellectually, you know, and my memory, I knew everything, remembered everything and all that until I went back and realized and had that sensory overload with all that stuff. Um, it just kind of connected all the dots.

01:10:27.620 - 01:10:45.770

And it just said, This is why you know it is the dual culture. It is why you are. You and I can, um and I do go to Panama, try and go at least once a year, and we say we go. We have to go home to get our fix.

01:10:45.780 - 01:11:07.070

Eso When I come here now, I enjoyed a lot more because I'm not trying to get my fix here. My fix is not about talking about the canal zone. My fix is Panama. You know, the American side of me I could get because we had hamburgers and french fries and things pizza.

01:11:07.080 - 01:11:26.310

I you know, I could get that, but to truly get the Panama, I have to go to Panama. But it made it much better coming to this Doing that. Now you know, I can't I can't speak for other people, but I don't come here for the canal zone.

01:11:26.320 - 01:11:48.070

Necessarily. The canal zone part of it. Although it's a big part. I mean, all these friends were other Zonen's and stuff, so it's like the dance last night. First, the Panamanian music. We come here for the Panamanian music. Okay. It wasn't there Friday night. They've changed over the years before.

01:11:48.070 - 01:12:08.370

It used to be They always called it the pandas oniy in. But it used to be a lot. A lot of Panamanian music. So that's what we come for, you know? So I wanted to touch you said that like you feel like now you know, you like How did going back in 99 getting your dual citizenship having your father's family inducted in the Hall of Fame?

01:12:08.380 - 01:12:34.940

How have those things made You feel like you know more part of yourself now I dio dio e fish now e went back on my marlin, but I fish now, but the kind of fishing I do they're very few women in the world that do the kind of fishing ideo And I know it's because I was raised with on this boat with these men who say you could do anything.

01:12:34.950 - 01:13:14.580

So, um, 99 was just it was a zay said it was It was just all of those things intellectually that I knew just kind of, you know, it was just reinforced assay say the smells, the food, the birds, everything and and I think Zonen's are very different than what I call mainland or U.

01:13:14.580 - 01:13:50.350

S. Citizens were just different, and it just it's just solidified. It doesn't matter. You, you are different. And this is why, because you do have that dual culture and and because I could go back because Panama had gone through all of the Noriega and all those years and and you know And now it's so strong and and I could get my dual citizenship and they freely welcome anybody born there that I don't feel.

01:13:50.360 - 01:14:16.200

I mean, I could go home. And even if I never go back to Panama, I know I can. And I think people that really, really wrap themselves around just the zone who want nothing to do with the dual citizen thing. They have a loss because they don't They've never made that connection yet.

01:14:16.200 - 01:14:36.120

They're born, they're they're raised there, but so they still are living with the loss on. I just never looked at it that way and when I could go home again. And I have my passport, my Panamanian passport, my citizenship, um, e and I have my U S citizenship.

01:14:36.130 - 01:15:00.800

It just I don't feel the loss because it still is my country. So it's too bad that a lot of his own Ian's don't do that because I think it's psychological. But I think for me it really helped. Okay, it really helped. So my last question is, is if you could describe your experience living in Panama growing up there in one word, what word would it be wonderful?

01:15:00.810 - 01:15:18.650

You probably have got that. Yes, it was wonderful. E mean, I talked to a lot of my friends stateside. Fred's born and raised, in fact, when I moved up here and, of course, some of them look a t first. We're looking me, like, who is this person?

01:15:18.660 - 01:15:50.310

Because we were really different. And But I look at their childhoods, and now we just had so much, you know, maybe because while our parents, um, didn't make huge amounts of money, uh, that cost of living was cheaper there. Um, both of my parents didn't work, so maybe we had a little bit more money, but we were able to have things that in the state you couldn't.

01:15:50.320 - 01:16:11.250

I had horses. Did that cost huge something, buddy? No. Um, we had a 42 ft sport fishing boat. How many people? But they hand built it, you know, and took about three years, but they built it, so we just had lots of stuff. There were lots of things that we didn't have way.

01:16:11.250 - 01:16:33.190

Didn't have the, um, fashion, you know? You know, baby, assume his movies came out or books. You know, we were always like lagging behind in music and film and all that. But it didn't really seem to matter. It was just the freedom, so I'd have to say wonderful.

01:16:33.200 - 01:16:49.500

Yeah, but I don't have any other questions. I don't know if there's anything else that you would like to add that perhaps you didn't cover. I don't know. I just I really wanted to clarify the flag issue. I know that there is one book. Yeah, that that spells that out.

01:16:49.510 - 01:17:13.080

And a some point. I don't know how many people have. This book was written right after, and I've got to pull it out and maybe I'll donate that along the way. Because over the years when I would read things about the flag issue, I would scratch my head and go Was that a dream?

01:17:13.080 - 01:17:37.090

Was because what they were writing was not my experience. And it was actually my brother in law who found this book because he used to tell book dealers. If you find any books on Panama, whatever just you know, I'll buy him. And he had this one book, and, um, in it they It was my experience.

01:17:37.100 - 01:17:58.100

Hey, gave me the book. So I have that book. I don't know, it's orange, but I will. Yeah, but But it was It's a great, you know, someone wrote it down, but yeah, it was exactly what I had experienced that day. So, um, you know, I don't know what else to say.

01:17:58.110 - 01:18:24.500

I accept that it growing up in the Panama was so unique, so wonderful. I don't know if Panamanians, I would say they had this wonderful of a childhood as the zone Ian's. And I don't know if it had to do because we did have the zone.

01:18:24.500 - 01:18:48.510

So we did have some security, and but we did have Panama. I know a lot of Panamanians that live up here in the States, and they don't want to go back. I don't know, but they had Maybe they just Maybe until they get a little bit older and they may be, then they'll appreciate Panama a little bit more.

01:18:48.520 - 01:19:07.030

Um, but you should have been there. It was good, all right. And it wasn't all about the ship's going through the e like that. Respective. Well, thank you very much for everything. This interview on this concludes this interview