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Good afternoon. My name is Britney Media with the University of Florida at the Panama Canal Society Convention in Orlando. I'm here with Sue Stabler and lose Stabler. Thank you for joining us. Um, uh, Miss Stabler, I'd like to start off with you. Could you please tell me about when and where you were born and how you ended up in Panama?

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Okay. I was actually born in Tina, New Jersey. Mm. But I ended up in Panama when I was seven months old. My mother had lived in Panama. Her father was actually canal construction time. But my mother was living in Panama and met my father when he was a Marine stationed there.

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They literally met on a blind date and were married three weeks later and went back to New Jersey. My father was getting out of the Marines, and they were going to live in New Jersey, so they lived there for a couple of years, and in that time I was born.

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But soon after I was born, my grandmother let them know that they were offering some management trainee positions, and she urged my mother and my father to come back to the canal, and they did. And that's how I ended up in Panama at seven months old.

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Okay, so, um, what was the work that your father did on the canal? My father was an accountant, and so the management trainee position was in accounting, and he literally did his entire U. S. Government service with the canal, starting as a management trainee and finishing when he was 55 years old as the deputy comptroller of the Panama Canal.

00:02:14.560 - 00:02:34.880

Wow. Um, did you ever get to see your father at work? I did. It was very common to just walk into his office and either be in the area and walk in for a visit or take him something or he need to give us something or whatever.

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But I was in his often his office often, um, knew all the people he worked with. And, um, it was quite a cut open and welcoming atmosphere. He worked in what's called the administration building Big, big building that sits up on a hill. Um, we all called it just the admin building.

00:02:59.520 - 00:03:23.440

Um, and he worked there. His entire career was in that building. Wow. So and your mother, my mother. My mother had been in Panama and she worked in several positions herself for the canal, generally in a secretarial capacity. Um, and she also worked a little bit for the U.

00:03:23.440 - 00:03:48.380

S. Military, also in a secretarial capacity. Okay, So, um, where was it that you lived? Did you ever get to live in military housing? We never did. We were always in the civilian part of the Panama Canal, okay? Fondly called the Canal Zone and then various town sites within the canal zone.

00:03:48.380 - 00:04:27.670

And we lived in many because housing it was government housing. We did not own our own homes. It was government housing that was assigned on the basis of two things. Both How many years of service you had and how many Children you had. Um and so you would start in sort of more meager housing and little by little, work your way up to to better housing based on numbers of years of service and so on in my parents finally had I was their oldest child.

00:04:27.670 - 00:04:49.060

And then I had two brothers. And because it was boys and girls, they qualified for so called large family housing, which meant three bedrooms. And so eventually they ended up in again by service and by family size in that kind of a home. But we lived in.

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We lived in the Balboa Flats. We lived in Los Rios. We lived in back in the Balboa flats, and then eventually my parents lived in Balboa Heights. But all within the canal zone and always us government housing. Okay, so, um, what we're kind of some of your earlier experiences may be in the jungle, in the zone outside of the zone, literally.

00:05:19.550 - 00:05:40.560

When you say in the jungle, that indeed was an experience When we lived in the Balboa Flats, we moved there when I was in the fourth grade. I also met my childhood best friend that year, and she's my best friend to this day. Her name is Amy.

00:05:41.040 - 00:06:19.650

Um, and we literally I would say, maybe five minutes from from where my parents home was in five minutes, we could be in the jungle, and we played there often. We built forts in the jungle with cardboard boxes. And And what have you been? I mean, you would go there one day and build and go back another day, and again and again, And we literally did the climbing, the trees, the findings strong, strong vines that you could swing and play on.

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And we were very comfortable doing that. And it was a It's like a natural part of our life was we never thought of it as being anything unusual. I'm going to the jungle like, okay, And we would go so And that was in the day. I mean, imagine that's Amy and me.

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Two little girls, fourth grade, fifth grade off in the jungle and with without being afraid and without being without thinking, it's odd. And with our parents saying that's fine. Yeah. Wow. Okay. Um, So, Mr Stabler, um, could you tell us a little bit about not only when and where you were born, but a little bit about your upbringing.

00:07:07.940 - 00:07:31.340

Okay. I was born in the Canal Zone Gorgas Hospital, and, uh, my great grandfather came to Panama during the construction. My grandmother was raised there. My mother was born and raised there, and each of them met servicemen that came down to Panama in the U. S.

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Army during the periods that of the first World War. And then my dad during the Second World War and met these women. They're and raise families. My dad and mother also left Panama after getting married. And my sister was born in the United States, but then again came back to Panama and we were raised there soon.

00:07:53.610 - 00:08:12.870

I met in the third grade and the elementary school that we both went to. I've known each other ever since then. Oh, um, what kinds of jobs did your father have? My dad was a firefighter, and he came in the Army When he met my mother.

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He was still in the army there as a fire sergeant at the fire station on the Atlantic side. And after they got married and he got out of the Army, they went back to Houston, where he worked. I believe in shoe sales of Montgomery Ward's something like that, and then was offered this position back in Panama, and they returned again as a fire officer sergeant on the military base.

00:08:40.740 - 00:09:10.460

So we started out in military housing, a little town site called Kuranda. And there are four of us Children, three boys and a girl, and in 1956 or 57 the Panama Canal Company, which was a civilian agency set up to run the canal, took over control of all the fire stations, whether they're on military bases or in the civilian basis.

00:09:11.240 - 00:09:54.940

Uh, so he then transferred to function from working for the military as a civilian, working for the Army to a civilian working for the federal government. It's the same position firefighter and he retired as a lieutenant, the Fire Department, around 1979 to 7 something. I think it would be interesting to say something about the bond of the Koran do kids, though, because to this day to this day, at these reunions, there's always a hospitality room that's that's called the current clubhouse and any kid who kind of grew up in Koran do.

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I mean, there's just a tight and strong a kind of A within the bond bond, you know, and and there they're really special in terms of how they think and care about each other. It's something. Can you elaborate a little bit about those relationships you made in Toronto?

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It's just the normal little small town relationships between kids growing up there and playing in the jungle and playing in the ditches and having a It was nice about living and growing up in the Canal Zone. It was a very open and free environment for kids just to go out and play because it was a well protected area.

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We didn't lock our doors at night, predated TV, no TV, no air conditioning, no air conditioning, blocking doors. It was amazing the way everybody knew everybody. And so if you were misbehaving, your parents knew before you got home that you had misbehaved because the phone would ring and they would be alerted.

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And so in that, in that way we were pretty well control into how mischievous we could be. We were very mischievous. It was a very Tom Sawyer kind of environment that's perfect. It was like that. It was just a lot of outdoors, though. I mean, we just hardly spent time indoors and and most of the housing being government housing were multiple units, either four families or two families or their even some 12 family units.

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That, and without air conditioning without heavy installation, whatever went on next door was like happening right in your own living room. And so things were a lot more control. And yet if there were issues, they would work them out. That's what growing up was like. Down there was like being a Tom Sawyer book.

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But many of us can think also of going to to elementary school and on through high school with always the same kids. I mean, we literally grew up together in that way, and we can talk about having Mrs Clark in second grade and and having okay, No, Mr New Pope in 10th grade English.

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You know, it's just that that also was a very small town atmosphere, a super small town. Um, did your mom ever work? My mother didn't work outside the house you took care of Or three boys, which was a handful. A real big handful, and then our sister or your sister.

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Okay. Um, so let's talk about school. Um, starting in elementary school, the school that you guys met, it was called Diablo Elementary School. Um, Diablo is a Spanish word for devil, but and I I honestly don't know the history of the name. It was called. It was simply called Diablo.

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So it was Diablo Elementary School, and, um and it was a big, big wooden building built up off the ground, which was the construction sort of of the times where where you have an underneath part of the building and in the first floor is up a flight of stairs.

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And this was, if I remember it was two stories 1st and 2nd due to the tropics. Most of the buildings in the early years were all built on stilts built up off the ground. So part of that was probably bug control, termite control and also flooding issues.

00:13:47.170 - 00:14:12.580

And in the early days of the Canal Zone, it was until years later that they started building cement buildings that were built on the ground. Uh, so most of the early buildings that were used for decades before they were destroyed, torn down and replaced. Uh, in fact, they just tore down the doubt elementary school about three years ago and replaced it with a concrete building.

00:14:13.350 - 00:14:39.190

It's no longer a school is now. It's offices, and it's no longer American. It's all everything in Panama's is Panamanian now. So, um, how did you guys meet? Did you know each other before the third grade? Or was it love? We met in the third grade, and we both remember literally when I say built up off the ground.

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It meant that our recess and our playtime was underneath the building. That was, you know, just it had concrete and all, but he and I both remember holding hands in the third grade. I didn't want to, but she didn't. Yeah, no, but we both remember that.

00:14:59.580 - 00:15:22.030

We go back to the That's when we met, and that's we remember holding hands in the third grade. That's sweet. So what were some of the things that you learned in school? It was very. We learned what any kid learns now. It was in an American Canal Zone school, but a totally American education.

00:15:22.040 - 00:15:44.060

I mean, we literally started every day with a Pledge of Allegiance to the flag. Um, every day, every morning in class and and we learned what any kid learns in an American school, we learned we learned math and English and reading and social studies and science and all the same American community.

00:15:44.070 - 00:16:14.130

It's an American community. And so all the kids were Americans. The teachers were all American. It was an American school system called Canal Zone. schools, but and we in our memories as kids. I mean, as we talk among ourselves now, far into adulthood, we all agree it was a quite an exceptionally good education.

00:16:14.140 - 00:16:41.090

Very solid sort of bar set high. Um, well, prepared us for university later, but it was It was a pretty phenomenal education, actually. Okay, Um uh, in elementary, middle school or high school, where you guys ever I guess, maybe introduced the Panamanian culture in class or Panamanian history.

00:16:41.100 - 00:17:06.840

Very much so. Some of us had by cultural families like my mother's. My mother and her siblings grew up in the canal zone, but they're cousins grew up in Panama because when my great grandfather came and his Children, one of them married American soldier and stayed in the canals on the other one married into the Panamanian families and lived in Panama, never worked in the canal.

00:17:07.430 - 00:17:25.730

And so we had Panamanian cousins, first cousins, that I didn't even speak English, and we those of us growing up in the canal zone, spoke very little Spanish because English was everything. Everything was done in English in the canal zone. We're in Panama was the opposite.

00:17:25.840 - 00:17:47.670

So there was that effort to in our family to recognize our Latin heritage as well. Um, but my mother is completely by the holy bilingual, and she lives in Titusville right now. Can still speak Spanish even though she has. She's been away from Panama for decades.

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Whereas my parents both pretty 100% American and did not speak Spanish and there was no Spanish spoken in our home anything, Um and in the ensuing years, I since I'm fully bilingual now. But I did not grow up that way. Um, and we didn't have the same connection that Lou had with with a sort of Panamanian counterpart, except in a small way.

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Um, my mother's brother married a woman who had also grown up in Panama and her She had aunts and uncles who were sort of us business people, but living in Panama not related to the Panama Canal. So we had that kind of a small, um, if you want to say foot in the door into Panamanian culture and society, Um, but but as kids, we also spent an enormous amount of time, particularly as high school kids.

00:18:59.460 - 00:19:27.970

Once we could drive, we spent a lot of time in the city and going to going to the beaches of the beaches in Panama and going to because you have to remember the canal zone was a piece of property that split Panama to pieces on either side of the canal was five miles wide and as long as the canal is 50 miles, but outside of that was a Republic of Panama on both sides of the canal.

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And so when you left the canal zone, you're into Panama without passports, without any kind of distinction between one or the other, other than you knew now, there were different laws in Panama that that were distinct from the laws of the canals on judicial systems that are completely distinct.

00:19:50.160 - 00:20:11.830

Did you attend the same middle school as well? We did. Which one? Uh, it was called Bellboy Junior High School at that time. Not even that word middle school as a concept that didn't exist at that time, it was called junior High, and for us it was 7th and 8th grade only.

00:20:11.900 - 00:20:33.040

So elementary was up through sixth grade, then 7th and 8th was junior high, and the nine through 12 was high school and we split it because they moved the junior high school from Balboa during our second year there in the eighth graders that we went back to where the Diablo Elementary School had been and that became the junior high.

00:20:33.040 - 00:20:50.590

For a short period. They were building a new junior high school. But we somehow during the middle of one year, we ended up making that shift. But it was always It was still called kind of Balboa Junior High Diablo Junior High for a while, I guess.

00:20:50.600 - 00:21:17.780

Um And so which high school did you attend? Balboa High School. Were you all dating this entire time? No, we weren't. No, we weren't. We had remained friends forever. Um, and literally I would have said to anybody I would have said to anybody. He was my best friend, who was a guy, you know, as opposed to my best friend.

00:21:17.780 - 00:21:43.020

And so it's a girl. I was not sure of her first wedding. Excuse me? Yeah, I was married. I was married, um, after my freshman year in high school, and, yeah, in college. Sorry. After my freshman year in college, I was married and Lou was an usher at that wedding, and it was a very short lived marriage.

00:21:43.030 - 00:22:16.130

And I hadn't given up even though you are ushering right. But also in high school, I also dated a Panamanian young men. And and I would say that my own personal sort of, um, how to say my own personal love and feeling of Of Panama outside the zone came through George.

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And we dated for several years. Um, and and a lot of my and I, my craving to know Spanish came from those years dating George because we would go to parties in the city and everybody's talking Spanish and I couldn't stand it. It just was not comfortable.

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And I worked hard to learn Spanish at that time. Um, did you have? How was your Spanish speaking skills then and now? They were terrible then, because again, we grew up in the canal zone. My dad was an American who didn't speak Spanish. Although my mother was bilingual, she only spoke Spanish to other Spanish speakers.

00:23:01.200 - 00:23:18.940

Um and so we didn't learn Spanish in the home for say, we learned some a little bit, but not conversational. And, uh and it wasn't until I started working on the canal as an adult that I found I had to learn Spanish better than I was at the end of the time.

00:23:18.950 - 00:23:38.320

We were all taught Spanish in school, elementary school. All through high school we were taught Spanish. But again, when we when we talk among ourselves what we were taught, we all knew our colours. We all knew our numbers. We all knew the months of the year.

00:23:38.320 - 00:24:06.840

We all knew, you know, some of that basic, that basic thing. We could all conjugate verbs. We many of those things we were taught in school. But that doesn't translate into I can conversationally talk to you, you know? And the effort was made. I have to say the the canal Zone schools made that effort to teach the kids Spanish.

00:24:06.850 - 00:24:32.590

But it was not one of us who who didn't know any Spanish came out of that program. Knowing Spanish, you had to have some other connection to make it happen. You don't use it. You really don't. Right? Um, my next question is earlier you stated that you guys kind of grew up together from elementary to high school.

00:24:32.590 - 00:25:01.110

Did you have any Panamanian students? Did you did in our schools. In our schools, there were several Panamanian students who came as they paid tuition. They weren't part of the Panama Canal Zone system, but their parents could enroll them in the canal zone schools and pay tuition as if they were going to a private school.

00:25:01.110 - 00:25:23.560

So So we went to school with their parents, did that so they would learn English. We went to school with quite a number of Panamanian kids. Her boyfriend, George was right. So and and name is really hard. Hey, it was, but he even he went to George.

00:25:24.040 - 00:25:43.990

Um, so, yeah, there were there were Panamanian kids in school and who became who became friends with us as well. It wasn't It wasn't like this big. We and them, you know, we were all just kids in high school. So and I was more aware of it in high school than elementary.

00:25:43.990 - 00:26:16.260

I can't. I just honestly can't remember if there were tuition paying kids in the elementary, but definitely in high school. Okay, Um, can you talk about your first year in high school? What was that like going about Bohai as a freshman? There's a fresh I've never been to a school in the United States, but I'm going to bet it was very much like any school in the United States.

00:26:16.260 - 00:26:40.970

I mean, we had we had classes all through the day went period, one period to period, three period four. And like anybody, you're doing English algebra, um, history, Spanish, P E. And so on. Um, we we had all the same kind of sports that U S schools have.

00:26:40.970 - 00:26:58.260

We had football teams, we had basketball teams, we had volleyball. We did all those same kind of things. We had cheerleaders. We had people in band. We had people in chorus. We it was all it felt to me. It felt like just a normal, normal education.

00:26:58.260 - 00:27:18.250

And I can't compare it to a US school because I never went. But my impression is that it it was similar. I think there was a big as I look back. I think there was a big effort to give these American kids in the canal zone a U.

00:27:18.250 - 00:27:40.630

S. Education with all of those trimmings. We had problems. We had, We had clubs we had. There was a lot of inter mural and a lot of after school activity to give us things to do and keep us out of the jungle now the bars in Panama City and but it felt very normal.

00:27:40.640 - 00:28:16.940

Just the Canal Zone government spent a lot of time and a lot of effort providing good educations and good environments for the kids to grow up. What were some of the most memorable traditions that you are able to experience in the race? The Boy Scouts of America were there, and they organized in 1954 the Ocean Ocean kayak, a race which was a three day race in dugout canoes, uh, much like the indigenous people in Panama used before Columbus arrived.

00:28:17.500 - 00:28:35.290

And that is a rite of passage for the males. And the Canal Zone was to go through the Cayuga race because it was grueling. And yet it was something that everybody wanted to do. Did you get to do it? Yeah, he did it as a kid First.

00:28:35.300 - 00:29:12.730

I did it years later as an adult, but and our daughter did it. Our sons have done it. I mean, it's kind of one of those big things. If you interview other people and you mentioned Kioko race, they will say, Yeah, we did that. But another When you say big traditions, um, we had when I mentioned football, we were in Balboa High School, and our big rival football team was Cristobal High School at the other side of the canal.

00:29:12.730 - 00:29:55.010

And in fact, we always called it the other side. I'm going to the other side, and that meant I'm going over to the Atlantic side. And related to that was the annual football jamboree that kicked off the season. And we on the Balboa side all went to the Atlantic side by train and we'd go and we'd have this big football night with Balbo, Cristobal Canal Zone college and athletic and the athletic club, which was a spill of sort of Anybody who wasn't either on one of those teams, then could be on the athletic club.

00:29:55.010 - 00:30:19.290

But it was a big round robin tournament that night and the big football jamboree, and it was a highly competitive, much anticipated big night for all of us because we went over on the train and came back on the train and like that, and that was a very big event for Balboa High School kids all through high school.

00:30:19.300 - 00:30:41.630

So Okay, um and then you mentioned that once you were able to drive once you were of a certain age that it was easier to go into the Republic of Panama. So my question is what? We're kind of what were the kinds of things that, um, teenagers did for fun at that time.

00:30:41.640 - 00:31:16.770

Teenagers from the Zone in the Republic of Panama. The surfing at the beach is surfing and just going to the beach and staying at the beach parties, A lot of parties, a lot of drinking parties, underage drinking and over aged. Uh, but it was all under the watchful eye people who also thought drinking was a rite of passage eventually into the filter, uh, to say that there weren't problems.

00:31:16.780 - 00:31:38.960

Sure, there are problems, but it wasn't pervasive. It was just more party as atmosphere to the type of drinking that most kids did there would be. For example, you'd have a high school prom and everybody would go to the prom. But equally important is where is everybody going after the prom?

00:31:38.960 - 00:31:59.270

Right. That would be somewhere in Panama City, and often it would be at one of the big hotels. Um, there was a hotel called the Hotel El Panama, which is still there. It's quite different today, but it's still there, and they had a bar that had an organist who played.

00:31:59.280 - 00:32:29.130

It was an enormous organ with pipes built into the wall behind glass windows, and he would play his organ and it was just, like dominate dominate the room. But we would be there and we would dance and we would does so, though equally important to the to the high school dance was Where is everybody going after the dance and those were the kinds of things.

00:32:29.190 - 00:33:01.870

And I don't think that's so different from kids today in many in many ways. And so that's but that's just what we did. Um, but I think the biggest attraction outside for the majority of the kids were the beaches, and it was also the fishing and the surfing and the sailing that some smaller groups going to the beach was a very predominant extracurricular activity for all of us.

00:33:01.880 - 00:33:27.700

There also on the Mattoon Lake, which is worth the Panama Canal, rose is a man made lake. Uh, there were recreational sites there and because, you know, they were old enough to drive and have use of an outboard motorboat. But usually the parents on where they have also little recreational islands, they could go to and spend the weekends there again.

00:33:27.700 - 00:33:50.460

Very Tom Sawyer issue. That sounds really nice. Yeah, it was It was cool. Okay, so I want to switch gears a little bit. Um, while you guys were attending high school, Um, I guess my question is, how conscious were high school students, where you are about the politics at the time.

00:33:51.140 - 00:34:11.430

Where is it? Something that was of concern, Or did you just hear about it from your parents? Yeah, it was pretty much we're in la la land. It's not something that you paid attention to What's going on in Panama, Their politics As much other than like you're saying just hearing about it and that kind of thing.

00:34:11.440 - 00:34:54.230

Until 1964. We were juniors in high school when the riots of 1964 occurred in January. And that changed everything. Okay. And the riots went on for three days, I believe. And we were there. We lived through it. My dad was on the front lines. As a firefighter, I was at the high school right and observe the incident were reportedly we toured the flag, and that's not what happened when I saw with my own eyes and the history, especially in Panama.

00:34:54.240 - 00:35:32.300

If you ask Panamanian historians what happened that day and you ask American historians just two different stories. Well, that's probably a lot of the way history is written anyway. Which side of the issue you were on will create a totally different story? But But in terms of actual things that happened, I mean, I wasn't there, but I would trust when he says no American hands were on that Panamanian flag when a tour, I believe that.

00:35:34.540 - 00:36:09.780

But no, I would say we were sort of vaguely aware of the politics, but not hugely aware. The issue that caused this was was really peculiar to those of us who were there during the evolution of the right was the issue was where in the canal zone, due to a new agreement between President Johnson, I believe and the Republic of Panama that anywhere in the canal zone that the United States flag would fly the Panamanian flag would now fly next to it.

00:36:09.780 - 00:36:28.710

That was my next question. It was actually Kennedy. It was President Kennedy. I think it was a Kennedy administration. And that was in 1963. Where, um, it was legislation passed saying anywhere in the zone where there was an American flag. Panamanian flag had twice as well.

00:36:28.720 - 00:36:51.120

Um, So my question is, how did you all feel about that? Well, this is what came up in the morning, uh, discussions among students and that we used to go to a building cafeteria called the clubhouse. But it wasn't anything like a clubhouse had no club involved, but it was a cafeteria.

00:36:51.120 - 00:37:09.990

And that's where we go before school and have a teenage breakfast of Coca Cola and French fries before starting the class and their We'd be talking about this thing that now that we have to fly the Panamanian flag anywhere, the American flag as well, that wasn't an issue.

00:37:10.000 - 00:37:41.550

Nobody should have cared. The issue became when they said the governor made the decision. Were these dual flags will fly at the administration building at different locations and where they wouldn't fly together was going to be the high schools or any of the schools. All our all our schools had American flags flying outside, and I honestly, honestly believed if they had simply said, we're going to put up another flagpole.

00:37:41.930 - 00:38:14.840

I think nobody would have cared. What people cared about was they were going to take down the American flag. And if that became a sort of a passionate political feeling on the part of the American kids in the high school, like you can't take down our flag it had had in the wisdom of the administration, I think had they simply said, We're going to build side by side flagpoles.

00:38:15.320 - 00:38:36.150

I don't think anyone would have cared. And in the end, that is what they did. Wow, but I don't think I mean, I could be wrong. There could have been some some saying, I'm not having the Panamanian flag. But mostly the issue was not that the Panamanian flag would fly.

00:38:36.160 - 00:39:04.610

It was that the American flag wouldn't and that created that passionate stir in in the students at the high school who then rat literally that rally around the flag. They rallied around the flag pole like we're going to protect our flag and that then that created quite a big, quite a big incident.

00:39:04.620 - 00:39:30.000

The Panamanian kids, The Panamanian kids came in. They were going to take down the flag and put up the Panamanian flag, and then it was that was a big part of what created that. But at that breakfast meetings, you know that when kids would just be talking, uh, the order had already come down, that they were going to remove the American.

00:39:30.010 - 00:39:49.950

In fact, they pulled down the American flag, and it was probably about 20 people, you know, And I was there, and, uh and they said, the consensus of the older ones because I'm just one of the younger guys are sitting there watching the consensus was, Well, we ought to just put the flag back up.

00:39:51.020 - 00:40:09.240

Another guy goes, Yeah, let's do that. Let's, you know, let's just go raise the flag and we're talking Maybe 2025 people at the most. Not the whole high school. Yeah, And so they did. A couple of these guys got a flag and they will get back to the school and they put the flag back up.

00:40:10.110 - 00:40:31.870

Well, David Spear calls Frank Castle and says, The kids just ran the flag back up. What do we do? And Frank Castle's This is This is what we hear. None of us were there for Frank Castle's reply was, Take it back down. Okay, well, so they go back out and they put it back down.

00:40:31.870 - 00:40:53.020

Well, now it's about lunchtime, and the word has gotten out that it was had put the flag back up and it got the word got over the junior college, which is about a mile and a half away. And they came down around by the high school and the word got over to Cristobal High School, which is 50 miles away.

00:40:53.510 - 00:41:15.530

And they're starting to get all riled up about the same issue. That, yeah, that's right. You know, we should have the American flag flying in front of our schools again. It wasn't that we couldn't have the Panamanian flag. That was not really be wrong. But I really believe if they had simply said, we're going to put up two flagpoles.

00:41:16.010 - 00:41:38.170

I don't think it would have been a big issue. So that afternoon they brought down the flag again, and the second time the students went back out Now in a bigger group now, it wasn't just a couple of guys. And because everybody started the thing kind of steamrolling this American forever.

00:41:39.010 - 00:41:53.790

And, uh so the flag went back at the second time, and this time the kids wouldn't leave the base of the flagpole and more and more came around. And now kids are coming down from the college and they're sticking little flags in the lung, and it's becoming.

00:41:53.800 - 00:42:14.000

Now it's becoming an incident unknown to us is that the students in the Panamanian school, the Institute of the Panama, are gearing up, and nobody even knew about this, was even paying attention to them. And they decided, This is Bs. This is Panama, and our flag deserves to fly there.

00:42:14.000 - 00:42:34.560

So just students again. They decided to march over as a group into the Canal zone active, come to Bible High School, and their intent was to pull down the American flag and raised theirs because their sovereign over the canal so and that's when it became a clash of two countries.

00:42:34.590 - 00:42:51.160

Before we continue with the story, my question is, um, growing up in the sixties, you know, in the United States. It was the civil rights movement. You had John F. Kennedy, his administration. Um, and then there was a lot of international politics as well that was going on in Latin America, in the world.

00:42:51.170 - 00:43:23.120

Um, So my question is, do you think that those movements, um and that kind of, I guess, that generation of consciousness and youth Do you think that that's what ultimately found its way back to Panama? Do you feel that that affected you are what most people talked about there in the canal zone, anyway, was that Excuse me that a large part of the intervention by the Institute of the Panama was communist instigated.

00:43:23.500 - 00:43:44.030

They're they're communism was trying to get a strong hold in Panama because the U. S had a very strong hold in Panama. And communism was, uh, manifesto was to spread it over the whole world. And they were coming into Latin America in big ways. And if you read, I believe any of the documents put out by the U.

00:43:44.030 - 00:44:14.380

S. Government on this issue of the riots and the cows on they speak to that about the communist role in instigating Darius. I think an answer to your question, though. How much were people students in Panama influenced by events in the United States? Remember that the sixties totally predated any sort of CNN news.

00:44:14.390 - 00:44:39.950

I mean, we did not get would get, like, maybe half an hour of news on TV, and it was and, you know, and it was government controlled. And I don't know that we paid that much attention to it. Um, so I don't think that was sort of a daily dose for us of what's going on in the United States.

00:44:39.960 - 00:45:08.200

Unlike today, I think the world's become much smaller. I think we're so aware of things going on. But I still teach school, and I'm often amazed that even with even with social media and even with 24 hour news programs and on and on and on, I'm often amazed at how unaware my kids are of world events.

00:45:08.210 - 00:45:26.510

I mean, I will mention to them in class, um, something, and they look at me like, Oh, really? And then you know, then maybe I sparked their interest. But they don't just automatically know that those things are going on in the world, and I don't think we did, either.

00:45:26.990 - 00:45:52.270

I can profoundly, on a personal level, remember? I remember John F. Kennedy being killed. We were juniors in high school. Um, and I can remember at that time just me, my family, my friends being glued to the TV. Um, but that would have been a unique incident.

00:45:52.280 - 00:46:19.600

We weren't getting some of those other things as a as a real daily dose. And I honestly believe it was the reaction to the flag. Was that just sort of passionate Americanism? I mean, we we were not in America, but trust me, we were solidly full on America.

00:46:19.910 - 00:46:48.040

I know we weren't physically in the United States America, but the canal zone was like being in it was U S territory with with us US work ethic, US schools, US police, U. S. Court system, us everything. I mean, all day, our lives were us based, and the effort was made to make us feel like we were in the United States.

00:46:48.050 - 00:47:14.110

You know, we've got us products in our commissaries. We got it. Just the effort was there to make us feel that way. And we were passionately patriotic. I mean passionately. 1/4 of July was was a big, big, big event with parades and with Oh, we were just so that American feeling was huge.

00:47:14.120 - 00:47:35.130

And and so you take you take a high school and say, we're going to take down the American flag. The same passion that's wrapped around flags, period was there with us as well, with with no particular outside help or influence. It was we were ingrained in us to be patriotic.

00:47:35.140 - 00:47:57.040

And I'm going to say again, again, that goes with the Pledge of Allegiance to the flag. That was a daily dose in our lives. You know, that's how we were raised. So Okay, So where were you on January 9th 1964? Okay, I was I was in the school as well.

00:47:57.050 - 00:48:18.990

Um, but I wasn't I wasn't like him around the flagpole. Um, but I was there in the school. Um, many of us were watching things kind of from within the school, out the out, the windows classes, classes were done. I mean, no matter if they had tried to hold classes, they were not going to happen.

00:48:19.000 - 00:48:47.720

Um, so I think it was already after three o'clock, but but some of it happened even before now, with the Panamanians coming back? No, no. But the idea of pull up the flag and doing all that happened started in the morning. So there was that buzz in the school already, and my brother was around the flagpole and Lou and his brother.

00:48:47.730 - 00:49:12.130

But your brother was around the flagpole and I was watching it from the second level. But can you tell me what you saw I got when I was at home watching television when my dad burst in through the front door and said, There's Panamanian students marching into the canal zone?

00:49:12.130 - 00:49:34.590

This is when I This is when I I was already home. Yeah, And so I got on my bicycle and I went back down to the school, and when I got there, there was, uh, several 100 people out on the lawn and my dad did run up to put on his uniform because it was a day off, but they had started calling all the fire officers get in now, you know, because we're having an incident.

00:49:35.470 - 00:49:57.990

And because this was this was the third day of having the flag on not coming down January 9th was not the first of January 7th was the day we first put the flag up after it had been removed. So on the third day of this is when the Panamanians students decided to get involved staying.

00:49:58.000 - 00:50:14.900

They stayed all night after. On January 7th, the word got out, you know, and I was in school that day. The word was getting out that they're not gonna do anything because tonight, after midnight, maintenance division is going to come cut down the flagpole and then that's it.

00:50:14.900 - 00:50:31.530

It's over. You know, there's no flagpole. And when the kids heard this and they heard it from their parents, somebody's parents put that word out. That maintenance division is going to cut the flagpole down that night anyway. So? So the kids said, We're not leaving, and they kept out.

00:50:31.530 - 00:50:49.530

And so now American parents are getting involved, and they're bringing food down to feed these kids because they want him to stay. And it was on the third day, January 9th that the Panamanians came over the hill into the canal zone. What did you see happen on January?

00:50:49.540 - 00:51:03.570

Okay, Well, when my dad I'd stayed home that day and So when he burst into the door and ran up to put on his uniform and announced to my mom, What's going on? I ran back down to the high school. I think I want on my bicycle.

00:51:04.060 - 00:51:26.610

Uh, like I said, everybody was out there milling around. The Panamanian students had been stopped across the street on the lawn of the administration building, and, uh, and there were canals on police there, and there were canals on police on the lawn where we were. And then all of a sudden they decided to put everybody back into the building.

00:51:26.610 - 00:51:48.380

And so they started in Mass, forcing all the students to go back inside the high school and close the door and locked it the front gate of the high school. And so most of us went up to the second floor, where the library had a porch out front of it overlooking and climbed out out there, and we were down looking.

00:51:48.380 - 00:52:05.380

There were still many parents on the on the line and some students as well, but it wasn't as many as had been when I first got there, and while we're up there looking, we see some of our friends running around from the side of the building again, and they yelled back up at us, the bathroom windows open.

00:52:05.850 - 00:52:30.270

So everybody came back down on the field and there was there had to be several 100. I mean, our senior class the year we graduated, which was the next year, had 469 kids in it. So that gives you an idea of the numbers of kids. Four grades, four grades in the high school.

00:52:30.270 - 00:52:48.350

So you're talking well over 1000 kids in the high school? Um, and they weren't there were not 1000 kids out on the lawn. But just to give you an idea of the numbers, there were a lot of parents out. There were their younger Children, too. I don't think so.

00:52:48.360 - 00:53:06.890

No recollection of elementary elementary school is very close, but I don't think they by then they had all gone home anywhere in muscles. Don't have a recollection of kids younger than our high school. That's again. That's a long time ago. But that's my recollection. High school age kids.

00:53:06.900 - 00:53:29.960

What are we talking about? Um, So you said that you never saw anyone any American hands touch the fly. So what was it that you saw? I can't tell how The one student trip. But one of them kind of fell back and they didn't let go of the flag.

00:53:30.650 - 00:53:49.670

And so it just it parted. It was in their hands. And it may have been an old flag. Who knows? I mean, it was a very it was a sacred flag. It had a fringe on it. It was a very, uh, it was an old flag, and it had some historical value to the university.

00:53:50.310 - 00:54:36.850

Uh, but you're accidentally well, accidentally or intentionally is not. But it Tore and C I d was there as well as well as canal Zone photographers. But the idea is the Army's, uh, intelligence division or whatever. The next week, when school convened again after the rise were over, one of the students Father had brought home from work The photograph of you see that nobody touching the flag is up to kids and it's tearing and the flag is ripping.

00:54:36.860 - 00:54:55.820

And that guy shot that photograph and brought the his son brought the eight by 11 photo back to the high school. We were all in our class looking at it. And yet that photograph never went viral and never made the press. And what made the press was that we ripped their flag.

00:54:55.830 - 00:55:16.520

We did. Okay, well, now that that's cleared up, um, what was it like in 65 when you all graduated? Well, it was tense in some areas, because in this tense today, in some areas there are Panamanians who just don't like Americans. But you also in that time period.

00:55:16.520 - 00:55:33.270

Also, we're all looking at the Vietnam War in all of those kinds of lots of things going on. But in Panama, there are places where we knew we shouldn't be, because the people who lived in that area or who went to those bars were anti American.

00:55:33.270 - 00:56:01.010

So we didn't go there, But we went to other areas that were pro American. Well, the funny thing about the treaty after after the treaty went in effect in the year 2000, and it was completely Panamanian run operation, the whole canal. Many of the Panamanians who worked for the American Canal we're very sad that they were now working for the Panamanian government.

00:56:01.010 - 00:56:18.550

And so the American government, they felt they were being treated differently right away. Right away. Uh, and there was so there were many Panamanians who loved the Americans. And I loved working for the Americans and love working with the Americans. And we're sad to see this change overcome.

00:56:19.030 - 00:56:39.340

Same with Americans. But there are many Americans like ourselves who welcomed the integration of Panama and the United States. And the canal has been running fine for 15 years. You mentioned earlier that you worked in the canals and adult. Yeah. For how long? And what was the nature of your work?

00:56:39.730 - 00:57:02.620

It's buried. I've been working for the canal over 40 years. Now. I'm still working, Uh, mostly. But I started as an usher in the theater. And when then I went to college, I came back. I taught school one year, and then I left again. And when I came back, I got an electrical apprenticeship.

00:57:02.630 - 00:57:33.450

Was working with the electrician for about almost not quite a year after finishing the apprenticeship, when I saw another partnership to be a towboat captain. And that's what I've been doing the last 35 years. Mm. Um, So you are live in Panama now, right? So my question is, um, what are some of the changes that you've witnessed with time?

00:57:35.130 - 00:58:08.430

Um, immediate changes? Kind of from one day to the next. Were were the absence of anything that that was done in the Canal Zone. There were no more sort of Canal Zone grocery stores. There were no more Canal Zone movie theaters or no more. None of those things that had been hospitals.

00:58:08.440 - 00:58:37.190

None of those none of those things that had been provided by the Canal Zone existed anymore. So immediately you were. We still had Children who needed to go to school. So our kids right away, our in Panamanian private school English instruction. But nonetheless, it's a Panamanian private school were no longer have any hospital.

00:58:37.190 - 00:59:03.790

So we're going to Panamanian hospitals were totally under Panamanian police. We all had to get Panamanian driver's licenses. Um, it was it was a major shift in, in sort of who provides your services and and And we all those of us who stayed kind of made that change ever so gradually.

00:59:03.790 - 00:59:40.140

But we made it, um, but if I could make that analogy again of of, say, the Mexican and U. S. border. Suppose all of a sudden Mexico claimed 10 miles into Texas by what? For whatever reason, and it was decided politically to be correct. Well, it would mean everybody who lived within those 10 miles is suddenly living in Mexico, and it means you suddenly need a Mexican driver's license, not a U.

00:59:40.140 - 01:00:07.160

S. Driver's license. You suddenly have Mexican police on your streets, not us police. You, you're suddenly your grocery stores are now going to take on a Mexican flavor and not us. And that's exactly what happened in the Canal zone. Only it was Panamanian, us. But those of us who stayed kind of just gradually made that shift.

01:00:07.170 - 01:00:33.070

Um, if I said it was easy, I would not be telling the truth. It was a difficult shift, but kind of every day became a little a little different and a little easier. And as we learned more and became used more to our new way of life, it became easier and more acceptable.

01:00:33.080 - 01:01:06.230

And I really can't. I can't speak even for my husband. But I can say for myself that memory now often fades like Why were we so worried? Life is fine. What we did, I think. But soon I were fortunate that we had some good Panamanian friends, that whenever we ran into something that we didn't understand how it worked in their system or didn't know really, what to do to solve our problem.

01:01:06.610 - 01:01:30.320

We go to them without without hesitation. That would help us and do whatever it takes to get us through any kind of difficulty. We were having well off record. You stated Miss Stabler, that at one point you all decided to move. You had bought a house in Washington close to Seattle.

01:01:30.330 - 01:02:04.420

Um, so my question is, what made you guys stay? Okay? And that's actually an interesting question. If you can picture, say, the people at this reunion who might have still been living in Panama at the time in those years leading up to what would have been the final end at the beginning of 1999 December 31st, 1999 every time you were at a party or a gathering or whatever everybody's talking about.

01:02:05.300 - 01:02:29.140

Where are you going? What are you going to do? What are your plans? What are? And in general the plan was leave Panama. I would say one thing you're leaving out is the reason there was so much uncertainty is that the Panamanian government had not yet decided nor announced if any of these Americans would be continued into the next century.

01:02:29.830 - 01:02:51.190

If we have a job like in my case, I'm a tugboat captain. There was no no, uh, effort made to tell us. Hey, don't Don't worry. We got a job for you. We're going to keep all of you guys. That decision hadn't been made either to whether or not to do it or certainly not to announce it yet.

01:02:51.200 - 01:03:12.320

So none of us knew if we were going to have jobs. So we needed to make. There were many people are playing. They wouldn't they weren't going to stay anyway. There were many kinds of jobs that we knew were just going to disappear. But decision making was difficult because there were many unknowns, um, many unknowns.

01:03:12.330 - 01:03:37.400

So we bought a house when we have so in case if we did leave right and we also had very close fans moving to that very area. So we bought a home thinking that's what we'll do. Um, but then, as time got closer and closer and closer little by little more got revealed to us.

01:03:37.400 - 01:04:01.720

Of what? That Yes, he would have a would have a job and, um, kind of on and on in that vein and a little bit. I often tell people the reason we didn't leave is because we stayed. It wasn't a real studied decision. It was opportunities to live.

01:04:01.720 - 01:04:24.720

There still existed. And we liked it. And we already had our kids in a Panamanian school. We had made that transition already. Um, so and in any family, getting your kids squared away is huge. So we already knew. No matter us or not, our kids are in school.

01:04:25.190 - 01:04:50.990

And once we learned that, that indeed there would be the same job would exist, that it would shift to working for the Panamanian government, but that the salary would stay the same. That was also big. There were just so many unknowns leading up to that that time that we were making decisions based on what information we had.

01:04:50.990 - 01:05:14.980

And we're making the best decisions we knew at the time. And in our case we ended up staying, and many people actually ended up staying although the majority of Americans left. Okay, um, so my next question is a two part question. Um um, I guess it is.

01:05:14.990 - 01:05:53.210

Uh what What were your initial thoughts in 1977 when you heard about the treaty? And then, um, now that you've seen it executed, what are your thoughts? Now I can speak to that. And then I think, as with many things in life, change is difficult. So the prospect of a Panama Canal Treaty was at first by most people, and I would say probably myself included, perceived as negative.

01:05:53.430 - 01:06:26.610

And in many ways, it felt like you often heard people use that the word in perpetuity. The Panama, the original Panama Canal Treaty with the United States granted that the use of that land in perpetuity, which means forever. So So when that forever was not going to be the case, it felt like an enormous change, and it felt negative.

01:06:26.620 - 01:06:50.300

So there were a lot of negative feelings at that time. Um but I have to say, on a personal level, having lived through the whole thing. And now, 15 years into the new way of life, I think it was the right decision. It's been successful. The canal is successful.

01:06:51.880 - 01:07:28.200

We've adapted our way of life to a new way of life, and it's not a bad one. We like it. Um, we often say It's a pity that we weren't back in the Canal Zone days that we weren't more assimilated into the country we lived in because what it felt like following December 31st, 1999 as it felt like we suddenly and actually live in Panama.

01:07:28.680 - 01:07:58.070

Mm. And up until then, in many ways, it didn't. You still lived in this kind of sheltered United States United States place, and in some ways it became an adventure to we would talk among ourselves of best grocery stores, best hospitals, best this, and we kind of all learned about it little by little.

01:07:58.070 - 01:08:24.980

And and it has not been bad. It's actually been It's been an interesting experience. And when I'm glad we've had, I'm glad we stayed. So what? I tossed the ball back to you, especially the part in 77. Uh, yeah, everybody, You know, the feeling was like, Why are they ramming this down our throats?

01:08:25.650 - 01:09:00.700

There was a treaty, and now they're throwing that out, and so there was going to be a big change. I think, as it went on, the thing that we felt we missed the most as between 79 99 was one. The Canal Zone police, because they were the Panamanian police, is not that dependable to actually prevent crime and help you where that's what the canal zone police did.

01:09:00.700 - 01:09:20.210

And the other thing was the mail service, depending on the Panamanian mail service was no. That's not much, you know. It's very corrupt. It was often you might receive a birthday card from somebody in the States and has been opened because they know birthday cards sometimes that money checks.

01:09:20.210 - 01:09:51.250

And, curiously, even our Panamanian friends hardly use their own Panamanian because they know it's corrupt. So those kinds of things were the things that you're wishing didn't change, still had it from the canal zone, where it was very dependable and very, very regular. But other than that work was good that I learned Spanish because I need to do now because the English was no longer required except for the officers.

01:09:51.250 - 01:10:16.680

The officers have to speak English because we have to speak on the radio, and it's the international maritime language. But our crew don't And so if I don't learn Spanish, I can't communicate with my crew and that kind of thing. So there were positive things that we didn't even realize we're going to happen, happened mhm and then our assimilation into the Panamanian society has been more We still have.

01:10:16.680 - 01:10:42.940

Our group of Americans are there that we've known for the last 50 years that we've been living together and we still hang out primarily with them. But we also. But I don't think that would be different in any other country. I think if you had, for example, if you had something happening happening in Germany and you had a bunch of Germans and a bunch of Americans, I still think the Americans would gravitate to the Americans and the Germans would gravitate to the Germans.

01:10:42.940 - 01:11:17.230

I don't think that's anything weird and unique about living in panel. I think you gravitate towards what's familiar and and we've that has been the case. Um, it's also curious, though, that because so many people left at that time, um, okay, I can remember I can remember my sons birthday July 31st, the summer when everybody was leaving.

01:11:17.230 - 01:11:39.170

So that was literally the summer of 1999 because most people with kids in school, um, had their kids finish that school year, and then they left so as to start a new school year in the States and so on. Well, it was my son's birthday, and I was sitting out in front of our house.

01:11:39.170 - 01:12:07.370

We had a wooden swing, and I found myself just with tears streaming down my face unexpectedly. And what I was doing is, I was trying to imagine my son's birthday. I still get kind of choking at this my son's birthday, and I didn't know who to invite to his birthday because his friends had all left that gradually changed.

01:12:07.370 - 01:12:34.980

New friends filled the space where old friends had been, but the normal people that I would have invited to his birthday were gone. So those were those were difficult times, but little by little new filled the old and life went on, and it went on in a good way.

01:12:35.750 - 01:12:58.160

But change is hard, so I have one more question. Um, I understand that there was a bust that was donated to Bubble High School. Do you guys have about the bus? Did you guys have any information? Who? Who? That was our class. The class of 65 the class of 65.

01:12:58.170 - 01:13:32.590

It was tradition for a graduating class to gift the school with some kind of gift away. Previous class, for example, there was a brass plaque in the middle of the main floor hallway that was gifted by some class. Along the way, there were there were concrete benches that were gifted by classes along the way the class of 65 donated or had made.

01:13:32.670 - 01:13:54.270

That's interesting because you know where the bust was on the flagpole face, because the flagpole base was had like a bench around it. It was a big and then the poll came out of the center of this base, and it was probably four or 5 ft high and probably 68 ft in diameter with a bench built into it.

01:13:54.850 - 01:14:15.730

Well, the classes 65 which is the year after the riots here, is the base sitting there that nobody knocked it down and on either side or the two new flagpoles that have American and Panamanian flags. So the classes 65 thought it would be really appropriate to mount on that flagpole base.

01:14:15.860 - 01:14:44.260

The bust of Balboa. Awesome. Vasco Nunez de Balboa. And I see the school. That's great. And so they had a And then there's a history to the bus to Yeah, the original one was, I'm not sure where the original is, because years subsequently, uh, in this rowdy times, you know, somebody to get the idea of, like, let's steal the bust, you know, and so it would be pulled off and disappear.

01:14:44.260 - 01:14:58.890

And then somebody would locate and wind up back there. And I think one time it disappeared and it was either broken or something. And so they made another one another. You would have to ask Elaine because he laying those, uh, you know, all the details of what that was.

01:14:58.900 - 01:15:22.270

But it was our graduating class that yeah, that gifted that. And it was designed to amount right there. Between the two flags is the school. So there is the bus. The school is still there. The bus buses up here. So I think the bust is in the Panama Canal Museum, I think, and the school is no longer a school.

01:15:22.270 - 01:15:51.180

The school is now part of the the Panama Canal Operation Administration, which is called the AKP. A Tory dad? No. Yeah, I thought that the canal. The Panama You're right. Sorry. It's called the AKP. And that building is used as part of the canal administration. Now, the main part of the high school training facilities.

01:15:51.190 - 01:16:22.440

A lot of classrooms where they do employee training seminars and things like that Research library, Other parts of the high school grounds buildings are used for, uh, record keeping personnel records. Uh oh. Physical exams. And there's the gymnasium is still used for employee fitness. Now, it's all part of the of the package of benefits of the of suicide employees in the stadium.

01:16:22.440 - 01:16:47.150

They're all of that's used, all still use. It was changed. The name was changed. It's no longer called Bob. Oh, high school is called the The Ascanio Training Center is a the capacity to forget. But Ascanio is named after the first Panamanian martyr killed during the riots of January 9th 1964.

01:16:48.030 - 01:17:06.000

Okay, mhm. Um, I guess my last question to you. You have a very interesting story, and it's a very unique experience, even for Amazonian. Um, but I guess it would be How would you summarize your experiences if you could summarize it in one word, I guess.

01:17:06.000 - 01:17:35.050

Your life in Panama looking back now? Yeah. How about three words? Cheap change is good. Change is good. I like that. Okay, um, I'm gonna go with the word can. I have two words unique and interesting, Unique and interesting. Well, and okay, three weeks unique and interesting.

01:17:35.060 - 01:17:58.520

Okay, So changes good, unique and interesting. Okay, um, so at this point, I don't have any more questions for you. Well, um, but is there anything that we did not get to talk about that you would like to have on record? Mhm. Well, one of the things that I often get asked around here is How is the canal doing?

01:17:58.530 - 01:18:21.070

Good question. Yeah, because a large part of the people who left and said there's no way that the champions are gonna be able to run this thing. That's why they didn't want to be there to see it sink. Basically, uh, they ask, is running fine. That means I've done a fine job.

01:18:21.080 - 01:18:51.020

Unfortunately, right now it's in a crisis period isn't that crisis, period because they made the decision to expand the capacity of the canal, which is a multibillion dollar project, and the money's coming out of operations out of tolls. And and unfortunately, that has put a heavy burden on the canal in order to meet all its fiscal responsibilities and keep running and keeping the customers happy.

01:18:51.030 - 01:19:28.520

And so they're in a difficult period that shortly we'll end, hopefully once they get the new locks open, and that should happen within another less than a year. Uh, so if we're able to sustain and and stay open and keep the troops happy as possible so that they can happen and we started getting the additional income back in again and get back to the the level of quality that they have been able to maintain for the 1st 10 to 12 years of their tenure as running the Panama Canal, then we'll be back on track.

01:19:28.970 - 01:19:46.820

But that's that's that's, you know, If they hadn't done it, then the canal would eventually close anyway, because the other the old canal is 100 years old, and that stuff is wearing out the concrete star roading away, so they needed to replace it. There was no option.

01:19:46.830 - 01:20:07.130

It's just how it's been handled. Maybe could have been handled a little differently. The other thing that I wanted to mention, we just lost it. Mm, I want to go. Oh, we'll let you gather your thoughts. Miss Stabler. Is there anything that you would like to add?

01:20:07.910 - 01:20:47.990

Not really. But so, yeah, Panama has changed massively since the year 2000, and it's a curiosity to me why it took the end of the treaty for some of those changes to take place. And when I say that, it's it's grown grown economically, and, um, I don't even know what to say.

01:20:47.990 - 01:21:17.780

It's the skyline, is now looks like a major. I'm talking Panama City predominantly, but it looks like a major city in any part of the world. It's high rise after high rise after high rise after high rise, and they go up overnight, it feels like almost overnight it's a so it's a phenomenon that I personally don't understand.

01:21:17.780 - 01:21:45.970

I don't I don't know why that growth wasn't happening even when the Americans were there. I don't know what held that back. It's an interesting It's interesting to me and I I would someday like to understand it. And I don't I'm sure. But if that money is there now, that money was also there, then you know what I mean.

01:21:45.970 - 01:22:10.230

It's not that there wasn't what? Well, there, you know, I think the investors see the potential. It may have been, too. It may have been that things felt too uncertain or, I don't know, but the growth has been mind boggling. Phenomenal. And I find that interesting.

01:22:10.600 - 01:22:40.330

Uh, it's also changed the face of Panama. Most of the Americans who are here who maybe haven't been back to Panama since before the treaty it would blow their minds to see Panama today area, the canal zone, the former canals, even the canal area. The growth physically on their visually it's a different.

01:22:41.300 - 01:23:10.090

So when I say interesting, it's also been interesting to live through that as just a phenomenon. Um, but I think overall we kind of have covered the Mr Stabler. Did you remember? Okay, that's a sign of age. Wow. Well, I would like to thank you all for your time, and this concludes our interview