00:00:00.240 - 00:00:23.740

Good afternoon. My name is Britney Media. We are here with Pablo Lubanga's, um, at the Panama Canal Society Conference. It is july 3rd, 2000 and 15. We are here with the salmon Factor or history program at the University of Florida. Um, so, Pablo, can you please just start by stating when and where you were born?

00:00:24.210 - 00:00:48.100

I was born in Puerto Rico, 1976 on the base of roads. Railroads. Okay. Um, So what is your connection to the Panama Canal? Well, I grew up there just because I'm an Army brat. Father was stationed there. Cool. Um, what? How old were you when your father was stationed in Panama?

00:00:48.110 - 00:01:13.700

That various, Um, it's literally back and forth between my birth and, um, the age of 15. So it was back and forth. You know, we were moving from Puerto Rico back to Panama. Uh, we were stationed in Colombia for a while. Then it was back to Panama and then back to Puerto Rico back to Panama.

00:01:13.710 - 00:01:30.210

But most of the time it was Panama. Okay, The majority of the years. Um So your father was in the military? What branch? Barmy army. Yes, and What occupation did your mom have? My mom was just a housewife. Okay, Um, so can you tell me a little bit?

00:01:30.210 - 00:01:56.950

How it was living in the in Panama was this This is after the canal zone. This was after the canals on treaty was done, but before the military was leaving Panama before the year 2000? Um, well, you know, Uhh. I maintained contact with a lot of people that grew up with me on the base.

00:01:57.640 - 00:02:17.030

And the one thing is that we all talk about how we wish we could go back because unlike other military facilities, Panama was really different, you know, like, and everybody was really tight knit group. Uh, you know, when you live on, a lot of people demonize military life because they think it's like baby killers and this and that.

00:02:17.030 - 00:02:31.640

But, um, truly, when you live in the military, you have, like, no color. You have your friends, and that's it. Everybody is of a different race or different. When you call them. You grow up together, your friends, and that's that. And Panama was a good setting for that.

00:02:31.650 - 00:02:58.190

I mean, there was just so many things to do in and out of the base, Um, outside of the base, you could just get things that weren't like exactly from Panama. But in Panama, you can get anything from anywhere just about downtown area. And, uh, we would rave on about things like a pizzeria there was called Pizza Italia and, honestly, best pizza in the world.

00:02:58.200 - 00:03:16.340

To this day, it's still there. You can go back and have that. Um what about, uh, you know, just just the things you would see the vegetation and and the animals Because, like every morning, you look out the window and you see things like the coding one.

00:03:16.340 - 00:03:31.780

These are two cans or spider monkeys. I mean, there was always something in your yard if you looked out the window, you know, really cool. And we were, like, all into, like, skating and surfing and things like that, you know, even like at such a young age.

00:03:32.040 - 00:03:50.640

That's basically what you do. There is have fun, right? Did you did you grow up on the east of the art? The Atlantic specific side? I believe it was the Pacific side. Yeah, I lived on for Kobe. Okay? And we moved around a lot from the basis, but we were always on.

00:03:50.650 - 00:04:12.870

I believe it's the Pacific side. Was for Kobe for Clayton Ford, Amateur. We That's where we moved around the entire time. So, um, how was it going to school in Panama? Well, I went to the dots, schools, the military schools, and a lot of them were open to, uh, zone in kids, too.

00:04:12.880 - 00:04:32.680

So they weren't exactly, uh I believe dots is military, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, but yeah. You know, those schools were just well made, even for the time, you know, because a lot of people would think of Panama is like a third world country. But the zone was, and always his owns his own was, well, well kept and will maintain.

00:04:32.690 - 00:04:52.540

You know, I went to, uh, Bob Elementary School was off post, was able to a big school. Looked like a looked like a capitol building. And I don't know if you guys seen pictures of it, but really nice school, um, teachers and everything. Classes were in English, obviously, and you know it.

00:04:52.550 - 00:05:10.990

It was just a bunch of kids from everywhere, you know, they had all sorts of stuff for us, you know? And there was currently junior high school, which was middle school right there. Um, super huge school I compared to current into the schools in Puerto Rico.

00:05:10.990 - 00:05:27.980

Puerto Rico is a colony of the United States, and the schools in Puerto Rico are terrible. You know, it's a lack of air conditioning. You know, sometimes they don't have the right facilities. You don't have to write books. The teachers, despite that they have an education.

00:05:27.990 - 00:05:42.270

They don't know what they're doing or what they're teaching. You know, Panama, that was a whole different experience. Panama was, like, mind blowing the stuff you will learn in school, you know? And the things that were provided for us, it was I gonna like some college or something.

00:05:42.280 - 00:06:04.570

Honestly, Yeah. Did you know high school, everything. The football team's everything was there. Everything was provided. Your books, everything. Transportation, huge school. Yeah, that was just shooting in high school. Uh, again, what? What was what year were you born in? I was born in 76 76.

00:06:04.580 - 00:06:29.780

Okay, um, in your experience is going back and forth between Puerto Rico and Panama. Did you ever see the social climate change as far as like, maybe tensions after the treaty. Oh, there was always there was always that. You know, uh, I was there, just free, free the war.

00:06:29.790 - 00:06:46.950

I mean, I was there for the war situation. My my school bus was escorted to school with 200 trucks, M 60 caliber machine guns on top, and a helicopter. Uh, super cobra. A super cobra is, uh is one of the mean helicopters. It's not like the one that carries people.

00:06:46.950 - 00:07:11.870

So one that has a lot of guns, it's a gunship. And that was a bus being transported to school. That's three buses. Uh, and during school times, there was actually soldiers within the school grounds, you know, with sand bags and setups. You know, like we were going to school intentions while there was actually soldiers carrying guns in school to protect the students.

00:07:12.550 - 00:07:38.990

And what was the need for that protection? What was going on there? Well, at the time Noriega was in power, and I was pretty young at the time. The tensions were that the treaty was for the in 2000. The Americans had to leave. I believe Noriega wanted to kind of push that forward a little further, you know?

00:07:38.990 - 00:08:10.360

And And he was being hostile towards American citizens and the basis, you know, And there were several incidents where Americans were hurt. And at the time George W. Bush was president, and he wasn't having that, you know, they weren't having the harm coming to American citizens overseas kind of thing, you know, And several incidents that happened, and there was political moves going on in the government.

00:08:10.940 - 00:08:30.780

So that's what you got to maintaining power to maintain power. And things were getting violent among the Panamanian people. And so, you know, that's when they started assigning more safety measures. Uh, they had a It wasn't a def con system. Or was it a def con system?

00:08:30.790 - 00:08:51.800

No, it wasn't. Def con is nuclear war. Um, there was something called Alpha Charlie Bravo and Delta. It was the status of the situation, you know, when it would reach Delta. It means that we're either in war or pre war. So in front of the base, you know, that was the sign that you would see.

00:08:51.810 - 00:09:17.810

So when you get to a certain status, you can't leave the base anymore. You're endangering yourself. You could, You know, anything can happen outside of the walls of the military base Echo, I believe was war. And that's when, uh, apparently a soldier was killed and this was pretty war, you know?

00:09:17.810 - 00:09:37.220

He was just killed by, uh, pdf soldiers for Panamanian citizens. I think it was just pdf soldiers. I'm not sure, but the thing is, once that happened, I know that officer's wife was raped and an officer was killed within his house. I believe this was in the downtown area, and that's what set it off.

00:09:37.230 - 00:09:53.840

You know, um, funny, because, uh, just the night before that or something, my father and my family, we all decided to go to Puerto Rico to take two weeks off on vacation. And the next day, my my uncle wakes me up inside. Think about the Panama.

00:09:54.640 - 00:10:17.950

It was an over overnight in Beijing. So you were So So this is this is this is all the experiences of that invasion. What year was that? Yeah, just cause operation just cause was somewhere. I know it was somewhere in the nineties because I remember in high school we had just for 9, 1990 everybody was making a big fuss and I was like, What's the big fuss about 1990?

00:10:18.740 - 00:10:42.840

It was somewhere in the nineties, Probably 91 92. Um, yeah, that experience was something else living on the base that's getting ready for war, because before that, mhm for Kobe, which was where I was we were living at the time was a very quiet base. You know, when we moved there for the first time, we thought it was like the boons of military bases like There's nothing here to do.

00:10:42.840 - 00:11:02.470

There's nothing to do. Then, when tensions started getting high, all you start hearing is the C five airplane. C fives are the I called fortresses, flying fortresses there, these huge planes and just all night long, just this sound that would rattle the entire house all night long, all night long.

00:11:02.860 - 00:11:25.860

Next day I wake up and there's a city of tents in front of my elementary school, which is this huge city. I mean, in this field that was out there. It was a huge field, just overnight. Tanks, tents, helicopters, everything. So I think, like they think they had flown in 1000 and 2000 troops overnight.

00:11:26.240 - 00:11:45.770

Was this this was around Christmas time? Yeah. I can't remember that now. I can't really remember, because I'm I think the whole prewar period was probably an entire year. Okay, so I can't really say that. I don't remember. I was never good with years. I mean, seasons and months or anything like that.

00:11:45.780 - 00:12:17.820

But it's always summer in Panama. Um, how where were you as far as the politics Was it something like with time, your consciousness. It allows you to kind of piece together what was going on. Or was there a point where you were like, you know, when you're on a base and you know the base makes you feel secure, The base makes you feel like you have not a worry in the world because inside those walls is everything.

00:12:17.830 - 00:12:43.190

You don't have to look outside the walls. You know, there's a P X. There's a little pharmacy, their little what you call it. There's a thing for the kids. There's a youth center, and we're all like, the only thing that made us like aware was that their soldiers on watch here and there, you know, we were sneaking into the think Yeah, this is still pre pre war.

00:12:43.200 - 00:13:03.640

We were sneaking around behind the hill where the they supply and engineering was And, um, you know, we always used to play in the jungle. That's what kids do. But on one, we found, like, a whole bunch of bullet shells on the ground and sandbags, you know, And we're like, I guess it's like a training area or something like that.

00:13:03.640 - 00:13:13.950

But anyways, we started, like walking through the jungle, and then we started crawling through a swamp just to see how far we can get. We head across the fence. We even saw, like, a little like wire. And I was like, Don't touch that wire. You don't know what could be.

00:13:14.540 - 00:13:31.350

We got all the way to the other side. We were already outside of the base and pdf Panamanian defense for vehicle shows up, and they just stopped right there. And they look at us and just, like, put us in the truck and drove us to the gate of the base and and let us go right there, you know, so that we can go back in the base.

00:13:31.350 - 00:14:00.200

They didn't say nothing to us. or anything like that, I guess. You know, they didn't want to have issues with, uh, kids on the base. And I guess that would look really bad for anybody, you know, But we were just like, uh, blissful to the whole war situation until you go through the experience of being escorted by a gunship and two Humvees with M 60 caliber machine guns and things like that, you know, there.

00:14:00.200 - 00:14:20.200

I mean, we could see things were going on. I mean, one time I'm in English class, miss her, and she's here, actually mutation, where they're sitting and we're looking out the window. Well, I'm looking out the window, and, uh, this truck passes by in a bunch of people were in the back of the truck, and it was Apparently it was a pdf truck.

00:14:20.200 - 00:14:38.550

They were mobilizing some troops during a different area of transporting that, and they started yelling out the window of the bus, you know? So I looked out the window. Everybody from the school started looking out the window. And what the heck is going on? Right. So the bus just kept going and I looked down and write down like outside the window.

00:14:38.550 - 00:14:51.160

You can see like there's some sandbags and there's some troops there, and one of them is like calling in on the radio. I was like, Yeah, you can tell that they're calling that in because apparently there was some activity that that's going on and the soldiers wanted for me, you know?

00:14:51.640 - 00:15:09.690

So these guys, I mean, like, you can see that everybody was just ready to go. It was kind of crazy. It's funny because the guys that were there, the troops, they were from Kobe, the base that I was from, It was division called the Motivators, and they were infantry.

00:15:10.440 - 00:15:24.460

They had they had all the crazy armaments, you know, But they would always be friendly with the kids, you know, like they wouldn't let us come close to the to the equipment and stuff like that. But they would let us ask questions about all that. So what's that, Dude, What can that do?

00:15:24.460 - 00:15:47.830

You know, soldiers were always I mean, they expect the soldier to be like cold blooded, uh, on ice person. That's not going to talk to you. There's people like anybody else, you know. They're just people cool. Um uh huh. So also about the war and and about the invasion.

00:15:47.840 - 00:16:10.380

It's pretty interesting, but I want to talk about the community for a second. Um, being an army kid, what was your relationship with the Zonen's and the natives of Panama? The with the what other than those of the Iranians and actual Panamanians, You know, the thing is, like, we had an advantage because we were Puerto Rican.

00:16:10.390 - 00:16:31.260

And so, like, one thing about Panama and specifically Panamanians to this day, they love salsa. And that's what Puerto Ricans are about the size of, you know, over there. They still you know, um, Panamanians, once we started the whole Spanish record and Puerto Ricans, Puerto Ricans had the Panama had that way before Puerto Rico ever had.

00:16:31.270 - 00:16:56.690

Yeah, they had dancehall, which was things like Renato Nando Womb. And yeah, he was way before. This was because I grew up and I saw the birth of both of those generation. So that was That was that, But no being Puerto Rican and talking Spanish, we socialized my mom, um, and my dad we had a lot of friends down there in Panama to this day.

00:16:56.700 - 00:17:15.510

Uh, because um, like, aside from the military, my father also taught karate. And so we had a lot of schools in Panama, and they were Panamanian teachers, Panamanian instructors in the different schools that we had. So we always had get togethers with a lot of people there.

00:17:15.850 - 00:17:33.280

And with the Sony is I mean, Zonen's lived there all their life, you know, like some of the names were just kind of houseful to the Panama Canal Zone because just the people that were there the entire time, you know, like when I hear sprayed like, uh, sprayed, sprayed.

00:17:33.280 - 00:17:51.930

He's like a famous painter from there, you know? But I didn't know who he was too much years later. But, you know, I went to school when one of his daughters, you know, and my brother knows him, you know, And my father used to work with one of them, you know?

00:17:51.930 - 00:18:22.650

Then you have, uh, other people there Chase. Another friend of my father's only in, You know, these are just people who were there growing up there, and and that was that was her life. The entire but canal zone areas like diablo and stuff like that. You know, they were like, uh, since you're growing up there, you don't know what's off base and base like to me, like anybody who speaks American is from the base when you're younger, that's how you think.

00:18:22.660 - 00:18:47.450

But after growing up, I kind of understood what the whole zone Ian thing was. A lot of them were going to the same school with us, so, you know, there was no no difference to me in that aspect. Um, I can't understand that there were some privileges they didn't have, which was like they couldn't come on the basis and, like, come to the P X and stuff like that.

00:18:47.460 - 00:19:14.360

My brother says that sometimes that kind of bothered them. I never noticed it, you know. But they were really means owners were really proud of Arizonians heritage. So that's why you see something's down there. Uh, there's like a little sign of such phony zoning like people who aren't born in the canal for me, for example, I'm not bored in the canal zone, and I was there before the treaty, so I could technically say Amazonian, but to them I would be a phony zone e.

00:19:14.940 - 00:19:31.360

But I honestly could cure last, you know? I mean, if that's that's like the whole issue with the Confederate flag that's going around, you know, it's like I see it all the time. It doesn't bother me. That's that's Southern heritage. You know, that's their thing, you know, to me whatever.

00:19:31.370 - 00:19:47.670

But to some people, that's like an issue. You want to make it an issue. Go ahead, make it an issue for yourself. I'm not going to care. So the whole phony Sony or Jordanians or that division I never paid attention to it. In the end, when you're there with people, you're getting along with them.

00:19:49.000 - 00:20:10.160

It's that I went remember names like Engelke, Uh, Wilder, you know, just a bunch of Duffy names like that. You know, people who didn't meet at the games or the football games or in the schools or we're just hanging around anywhere. You're a bunch of Americans living overseas.

00:20:10.540 - 00:20:28.790

In the end of it, nobody there now. I mean, a couple of people my parents bought houses there, but there's no zone. You know what I'm saying? It's Panama now that's the way it is. So I want to talk to you more about your experiences as a military child.

00:20:28.800 - 00:20:53.160

So, um so you said that you, your father had been stationed in Panama. You spend time in Puerto Rico as well. That's where from, um, Columbia. You stated as well as other places where you stationed that. Yeah. Uh, Columbia, Kentucky. Um, it was mostly Puerto Rico in Panama for my youth in Colombia.

00:20:53.540 - 00:21:14.250

Um mhm generally remember where else I was stationed? Because that entire time Colombia was the one place that I remember before Panama in Puerto Rico. We were there just as he had retired, and then they called him back into service. And that's how we want it back in Panama.

00:21:14.260 - 00:21:55.690

This goes like 1985. Um, my question is, now, uh, if I remember correctly, you said that, Yeah, the military facilities in Panama and that experience was different than any other military base and else Could you elaborate on why you feel like that? Experiences? Because because Panama was designed for a tropical area, and a lot of the places that were selected for officers and things like that were, I don't know if they were just like, Well, this place is beautiful.

00:21:55.690 - 00:22:12.600

This Take it or let's do this here when we do it, let's make it beautiful like Ford Amateur. Alright, that they bulldozed it and I mean, I saw it, you know, now when I went down there and it's a parking lot, But before that, there was a golf course.

00:22:12.610 - 00:22:47.760

Like where? There. There was a big golf course in the middle, and it was a big golf course in the back and right by the ocean on this causeway point, you know, And that place was paradise. As far I mean, all they had to do. In my opinion, after the Panama, the Panamanian people they had to do that place was make the general's building the main lobby and turn that place into resort, build a hotel, close the gate or whatever, and that would be a Panamanian mega hotel because it already had the golf courses and everything.

00:22:47.760 - 00:23:09.260

But apparently they sold it to some guy, okay, who just bulldoze everything and kind of ran away half project and supposedly they're even looking for that guy. You know, I think it was like some guy from Saudi Arabia or from Dubai or something like that, and left the project halfway, and people were mad because Amador was one of the historical basis.

00:23:09.260 - 00:23:29.860

You know, a lot of these places were there during the building of the canal, so they have historical value. You know, when you just come in and be like a yeah, I'll buy the spot. I'll do something good with it. Boom, demolished. People are going to be like what happened because that police had a lot of potential.

00:23:30.440 - 00:24:23.690

There's still segments of amateur that exists that weren't demolished, but most of the main housing is gone. The golf course is gone, and I could still draw to you what that place was like, You know, like the road now Because it was just so embedded in my head that for Kobe, I mean everything, everything there is just I've got a military basis here, you know, And in Puerto Rico, and they're just very different, you know, the the methods in which streets were built, you know, like most of the streets would always have palm trees down the sides, you know, always and you might sound like whatever, but when you actually see it, it looks It looks like a hotel.

00:24:23.700 - 00:24:40.180

The whole place looks like you're staying at some super Super hotel kind of environment. You know, um, and not every base gets that design. I guess they took that in mind before they build the basis that they wanted to make something very different from their other military facilities.

00:24:40.190 - 00:25:00.370

You know, um, what else was that? Uh, yeah, the architecture of the buildings and stuff like that. I think they just want to take a different angle with it. You know, everything was in hills and by the jungles and everything was just done in a way, that man.

00:25:00.370 - 00:25:14.160

Well, I'm telling you, like this man growing up there for me was a blast. You could just You didn't need toys, or you didn't need to have a ball or anything like that. You you can just go out and and have a blast for whatever throw mangoes at each other.

00:25:14.170 - 00:25:38.860

Things like that. Yeah. We would just do the craziest stuff. Uh huh. Um, what kind of things that young people do. I understand that you guys have a theater. You guys had a commissary? Um, football games. Is there anything that I guess special that you guys got to do that wouldn't happen in an American town.

00:25:39.240 - 00:26:03.050

Mm. Um, the mango fights. Like I was saying, we used to play with language, man. Mango trees are everywhere on base. Okay, you grab like, 20 of those things and you get, like, 15 friends, and you just start hurling at each other and, you know, break your house window or something like that.

00:26:03.540 - 00:26:23.110

You getting all kinds of stuff. We will play getting called manhunt. It's like, hide and go seek. But for, like, the teenagers, you know, we would just run out into the golf courses and we would mess with the golf courses. I don't I don't think everybody lives near golf course.

00:26:23.110 - 00:26:38.730

So that's one of the things I don't think everybody everybody gets to do. You know, I'm sure we will go out there and grab the flags and switch them around and fling them. You know, you can do that. Uh, sometimes we would, uh, get on the sock.

00:26:38.730 - 00:27:01.560

A bus was the Panamanian kind of like the canal zone bus. You know, we used to climb on the back of those things at night or whatever time they would run around. You know, sometimes we were flying man with them, you know, just doing kid stuff, getting yourself, getting yourself into trouble in that in that aspect, you know?

00:27:02.140 - 00:27:21.210

And then there's something that you say, you know, like the football games. And I mean, the military and military life. They always provide the youth with something to do. You know, um, they would always give some kind of fares. The for was for everybody. Canal Zone and Panamanian people.

00:27:21.210 - 00:27:48.740

You could come on base with the permissions. You know, CF a fair was like, I was kind of like the one time of the year where they would bring all the machines and rides and stuff like that. And, you know, that was probably, like, my favorite time of the year, you know, So just would have there their little booths and they would do things like where you would throw apples at the sign and they would fall in the water.

00:27:48.760 - 00:28:01.350

They had, like, uh, you know, when they practice some of the military maneuvers, like the airborne guys, they were, like, hook themselves up and throw themselves down. Well, they would do that with the kids, you know, they would hook him up and throw them down this rope, you know, kind of.

00:28:01.350 - 00:28:15.870

And then at the end, you get a little airborne certificates you past year, one jump school and stuff like that. You know, I did that like, a whole bunch of times. I used to have, like, 20 other certificates at home. That was not Oh, um, how often were you able to leave the zone?

00:28:15.870 - 00:28:36.580

I'm going to Panama every day. Yeah. Every day. What was your experience is like, Well, um, honestly, uh, we used to do things like go to the river was a bunch of my dad's friends. Uh, there was, uh I think that, um I think about that now.

00:28:36.580 - 00:28:50.640

And I'm like, Well, that was kind of crazy because there was alligators in there. But aside from that, it was just like being around Puerto Ricans to me. And I never felt like I'm like, Who are these people or or Well, I'm in another country, you know.

00:28:50.650 - 00:29:09.160

They talked Spanish, I talked Spanish, and that's that. You know, we used to go down to the fares in the interior of the country. And, you know, we'd see all kind of stuff. There would be people from Bolivia, Peru selling like little flutes and things like that.

00:29:09.160 - 00:29:37.750

It's like a fair where they would have a typical dancers. They would sell the mass for the burritos. Yahiko always called the data center advocating. But, you know, then, like the experience of going downtown to go shopping central. Uh, I mean, at that time, Panama had a problem with petty theft, which was kind of like a run off with your purse kind of theft.

00:29:37.760 - 00:29:57.400

Or if you're driving and you stop at a light in the zone like a What was that called? It was It was like a ghetto. You know, it was right by the by the bridge, the exit of America. And at night, if you didn't lock your doors, you could get jacked.

00:29:57.400 - 00:30:15.840

I mean, people who might be completely wrong. But is this Silver city? Uh, it was that Silver City. No, that was No, no, I just have to ask. That was what it was called was in Panama. It was downtown Panama. It was just right off. The point Is that America, right?

00:30:15.850 - 00:30:33.390

When you get off, you just go straight in the first light. Here was to the right. It was like this look like a favela. Brazil. It's just made out of wood, really run down and people just jump out of the bushes and come to your car, you know, and and try to open your door and you look and have knives or bats on them.

00:30:33.400 - 00:30:49.360

You know, So a lot of that was going on, but, you know, it wasn't that bad downtown, you know? But you did have to be careful. You hold on to your if your lady would hold on to your purse, you know, But I I never felt that danger when I was there, you know?

00:30:50.140 - 00:31:05.060

And But, I mean, for for my mom, you started to go there all the time. She would take me, and we used to go to all the stores. And, you know, you just find all kind of stuff you don't get on base, you know, get things for really good prices.

00:31:05.640 - 00:31:23.590

That was a whole different Panama from how it is now. I mean, I went there in 2010. I was just totally different. I mean, um, what do you What do you feel is the difference now From what you said, it was like an economical progress going on there.

00:31:23.600 - 00:31:50.310

And honestly, it's chaotic, in my opinion, because they're like building all these buildings in the city and, like the roads are messed up right now. And there's, like, a little to traffic, you know? They call it drank in Puerto Rico, we call it I don't know what they call in the Dominican Republic College, but it makes everything else look like a joke because cars don't move.

00:31:50.940 - 00:32:12.290

Don't move. I'm talking about like, you'll be there 30 minutes trying to get around cars and stuff and like I was going insane about you. I'm like this place is going too fast and they don't have an organized, you know? I mean, they're just like buildings, buildings, buildings, like supposedly all the other things that aren't in Dubai there in Panama, you know?

00:32:12.290 - 00:32:32.820

And they just got all these buildings going up like crazy, and I don't know, it just doesn't seem as organized, you know, like how they're going about it, you know, it's like you have to have some kind of balance because they're not. Things are they're going to come down on you know you're gonna have a lot, but you're gonna have a mess.

00:32:33.410 - 00:32:52.230

And that's how I felt first, I mean, for the situation. I know my folks moved down there, and it's like I'm staying here. You know what? I'm staying in Tampa. I'm not moving down to Panama. Not not for a while, you know, especially since to me, like, a lot of the stuff that I grew up seeing has been torn down and demolished.

00:32:52.230 - 00:33:06.990

And I kind of like to keep that memory right there. Because if I go down there, it's just gonna be a lot of heartbreak for me, seeing a lot of things that I grew up with, like being destroyed or gone. Yeah, I'm sure. Did you get to finish high school in Panama?

00:33:07.000 - 00:33:31.960

No, I finished high school in Puerto Rico. Okay, um, when was your father officially done? Living in Panama in 1992 92. And this was did you guys? Was this when you moved back to Puerto Rico and French high school? Yep. Okay. Actually was 94 was 94.

00:33:32.640 - 00:33:52.850

94. Okay. How at what point did you decide to come to the states? Um we came to the state in 2000 and four when we came to realize that the economic situation in Puerto Rico and the government situation was not gonna get any better any time soon.

00:33:53.540 - 00:34:20.550

Yeah, Um, yeah, when my father was done with Panama. You know, uh, you you get culture shock from living on military bases to live in outside off the base. It's very different life because, uh, on a base, Like I said, you have everything and its multicultural, you know, color doesn't exist, and you don't have racial issues and stuff like that.

00:34:20.550 - 00:34:33.850

Everybody's just especially in junior high and high school. You know, you just have your friends, you know? You all right, The same bus together. You'll go to the same cafeteria together. You all play football together. You all hang out together. You all do whatever you do together.

00:34:33.850 - 00:34:56.070

You know, moving to Puerto Rico. First of all, everybody was talking Spanish all the time. Aside from in my house, I lived on in the Campo in Manati, in Puerto Rico. And then after that, uh, you know, just the way that everything is off the military base, everything was just different.

00:34:56.070 - 00:35:17.950

from Panama for me. Mm. After growing up 14 years in Panama than being full time in Puerto Rico, I didn't like, you know, I want I want to go back to Panama. I was losing my mind in Puerto Rico growing up there, I was just like everybody was always messing with me because I was a good angle, Uh, like because he spoke English because I spoke English.

00:35:18.540 - 00:35:36.160

You know, I spoke better English than the people from New York that we're living in Puerto Rico because people from New York had accents from New York and under Spanish accent was from New York, as my English is flat English and my Spanish is flat Spanish, it's Puerto Rican, and my English is just military.

00:35:36.540 - 00:35:53.370

So to them, I was just like the green one. And to the New Yorkers, I was getting so it was like that situation. And I didn't like that, you know? But the actual question you had asked me just now was, uh when did you decide to move?

00:35:53.370 - 00:36:20.760

So, yeah, we decided to move in 2000 and four when my father had it with the government and the economic system. It was just like, yeah, not happening, You know, he didn't like it. You know, we were being charged ridiculous electrical bills. They wanted to charge you for everything, you know, because apparently there's a deficit there, and they they're trying to, like, get money to pay that deficit.

00:36:20.760 - 00:36:34.040

But honestly, they're just trying to get money because they can't get enough to fill their own pockets. And that's why you got the crisis that's going on there now. And some mass exodus. Well, we were the first people to leave of that exodus. You know, we were, like, on the first boat out.

00:36:34.430 - 00:36:54.950

That's why we can Tampa mom felt like Tampa was a lot like Panama. Yeah, and I can kind of see it in, like, the zone aspect and, uh, military based aspect. You know how? I don't know if you guys feel this about Florida, Florida is like the landscaping state.

00:36:55.730 - 00:37:17.180

Yeah, you go down to Tampa. Everything is clean cut grass. You must have not been to Miami before I've been in Miami. I like Miami, actually. And that's because a lot of my friends are in Miami, But yeah, Miami. Very different from Tampa. You go to like the area I live in Valrico.

00:37:17.180 - 00:37:35.740

It's it's, uh, what is that called suburbia and as a suburb, And that's always like ball cut grass. And I lived in one of those homeowner association neighborhoods where everything's got to be nice and tight, you know, And that's kind of like living on a base.

00:37:35.750 - 00:37:48.040

Everything was nice and tidy, but that wasn't your job. That was the soldiers jobs, you know, they would have soldiers due to clean up. They would have soldiers do this and that, and then they would have people who mobilize and kind of stuff like that over here.

00:37:48.040 - 00:38:05.300

You have to do that yourself. But when you visually when you see it, that's what you see. Is that kind of clean This? My mom really liked that, you know, and I kind of see how she relates that to live in in Paris. Yeah. Um, So I go back a little bit.

00:38:05.310 - 00:38:28.540

What did you when you moved to Puerto Rico? You said that you had a really hard time. So my first question is, what do you think was like the hardest part about it? Besides you, obviously speaking English and being the gringo. It's just a you know, it's the social aspect of living on a base compared to living off base.

00:38:29.020 - 00:38:43.970

Um, first of all, it took me a really, really long time to make friends in Puerto Rico and friends that were genuine to me. You know, people who didn't want to be my friend because they needed something from me in Puerto Rico. It was like that.

00:38:43.980 - 00:39:05.140

You know, if you knew English, everybody wanted you to be their friend for the English report or the English class report. But nobody ever really came through or called you just to be like, Hey, what's up? Or let's hang out and listen that also, since the military basis, provide for the youth entertainment.

00:39:05.520 - 00:39:18.740

It's kind of like you don't need a car to begin with. Everybody lives on a base. You can walk to your friend's house. It's not that far when you live off base. The one friend that goes to Santa school is you could live on the other side of town.

00:39:19.120 - 00:39:38.410

You need a car to get there, you know, and he's not going to exactly be living in the nicest kind of neighborhood you know. That's one thing. Then Spanish was the language barrier. There was like, for example, LA via how you talk to a girl or how girls talk to you.

00:39:38.420 - 00:40:01.150

You know, it's, uh yeah, that was me. You know, if you talk to me in English, then I know what you're talking about. Okay? You like me in this, and they, you know, you want to go out to off a base. There was, like, this whole other language, you know, there was like, this code and it was like, whatever, I didn't understand it.

00:40:01.160 - 00:40:14.380

I don't understand how to talk to a girl here. I don't even understand how to. Well, what the guys we're talking about here sometimes, you know, all that was so different from me, and it was really, really difficult. And I was just like, it's not that people didn't want to be friends.

00:40:14.380 - 00:40:28.960

It's just that I didn't. And it's not that I didn't try because I really did try. It's just that I didn't like him a lot. You know, a lot of people that I just didn't like because I was living in a place where it was just so different from me.

00:40:28.970 - 00:40:53.590

I found my place in Puerto Rico 10 years later. And then I was crazy about Puerto Rico. 10 years later, I was like, I never want to leave this place. But I had what me and my brother called The great years. Those great years were the ones that, if you like, mentioned something in the back of my head, it'll pop up and I'll be like, Oh, my God, I actually did that or that happened, you know?

00:40:53.600 - 00:41:06.880

I mean, I would do anything for fun in those times because I was born out of my mind. You know, there's nothing for me to do. There was no football team. There was no, you know, uh, youth center. There was no get together. There was none of that.

00:41:06.890 - 00:41:29.740

You know, the country doesn't provide that. That's why that's why places like Puerto Rico I don't know about something mingle. But Puerto Rico, San Juan, you know, a lot of these things are going on, and that's why the youth has no aim. They are killing each other over there, you know, it's like, Hey, what better to do than sell drugs and make money and listen to get on.

00:41:30.310 - 00:41:48.170

You know, there's no kind of art school that's free. There's no kind of football team league that's going on with all the public schools in Puerto Rico. Is not, you know, So the social system is kind of like Just make friends however you can and get by.

00:41:48.170 - 00:42:04.730

However, you can find fun, however you can. It's not like it's going to be provided for you. It's not that we could Could can't provide for you, is that we don't care to provide. Uh huh. That's how it is. And for me, that was a complete change of life, a complete change of lifestyle.

00:42:06.800 - 00:42:29.110

Okay, um, how often after you moved to Puerto Rico, you no longer lived in Panama. What? You're able to go back? Um, you know, that was the thing, because I want them to go back as much as possible as soon as possible. And my parents, uh, you know, my parents love me, but I don't think they really cared about that.

00:42:29.120 - 00:42:54.430

You know, I think they were just like you're gonna have to deal with it, you know, You're just gonna have to grow up. This is where you are now. and this is it, Um, I want I got to go back one time because one of my older brothers, uh, when he was in high school in Panama, he had gotten his girlfriend pregnant and he had joined the military immediately right after high school, and through luck, he was able to get stationed in Panama, you know, for Clayton.

00:42:54.970 - 00:43:13.580

And, um, I believe sometime after 1995 I was able to visit my brother in Panama for like, probably a week for two weeks. And a lot of my friends were still living there, and I really, really, really didn't want to leave, you know, I was just like, I'm back here, you know?

00:43:13.580 - 00:43:28.180

It's almost as if time never changed. You know, I left and I came back. And then the clock started ticking again for me. And, you know, it was just once you're there, you're like, Hey, you know, you're back in your social life circle where you don't have to need a car.

00:43:28.180 - 00:43:44.620

You don't have to run across town to meet your friends. You don't have to have a crossword puzzle to understand what the girls trying to say to you. You know or sign language or something in a It was just like being just back in in life again, you know?

00:43:45.100 - 00:44:03.850

And then, you know, like eventually we went back to Puerto Rico, But just that culture shock change, and then just going back one time, it was like a eye opener. But I went back to Puerto Rico. Last time I went back to Panama was like, 2010.

00:44:03.930 - 00:44:26.900

That was the last time I went back to No. Okay, cool. Well, um, so you know, you know how in 79 they started they the treaty? Yeah. And they started, um, sort of. There was a shift of power giving the Panama Canal zone back to Panama.

00:44:26.910 - 00:44:44.790

Um, do you remember? Do you remember your sentiments? One of these things were going on? Well, I was born in 76. I was too young for to experience that, but I saw a couple of things around me. You know, there was things that were being made.

00:44:44.790 - 00:45:05.120

It was shirts like, uh, one of Mickey Mouse giving the finger. That would say, f you, Jimmy, Jimmy Carter, Who was the guy who made the treaty? Because a lot of people that weren't happy the treaty went down. A lot of people just realize, Hey, you know, yeah, after a certain year, and you're gonna have to say goodbye to all this because that's the end, you know, especially for the zone.

00:45:05.120 - 00:45:33.220

Ian's that was like to them, they felt that was, like a stab in the back, you know, because that was kind of like their home according to them. You know, uh, and, uh, they just, you know, you get that ultimatum where it's like, this is done, you know, Uh, and little by little, this is being handed back to the people to where this belongs to.

00:45:33.590 - 00:45:59.170

Yeah, this is the Panama Canal. This is belongs to Panama, and you guys helped build this. But this isn't your this pasta, and they had to get over. You know, some of those people took that harshly, and, you know, there was a lot of things going going around, you know, there was insults here and there, and I can't really remember anything.

00:45:59.180 - 00:46:18.200

But, you know, I I would see stuff like T shirts and stuff like that related to that subject. I was just like mom. Whatever But when you when you when you're that young, you don't really care about politics. You don't You don't think about where you're going to be 10 years from now or for your the rest of your life.

00:46:18.980 - 00:46:34.810

You know what I'm saying? I would I would. I like it if the military still had a presence there. I guess I would, because I would still see the military basis. Do I think the debate, um, do I think the Panama Canal Zone and everything that belongs to the pattern of kind of million people?

00:46:34.810 - 00:46:56.120

Yes, I do. You know, isn't not being able to go back to that. You know, it's I'm kind of mad that they destroyed places like Kobe Hill, which was where I grew up. But it was never going to be the same, you know, Regardless, I knew that, you know?

00:46:56.120 - 00:47:11.880

I mean, what am I gonna do? Go back there and ride my skateboard down the hill a couple of times, which is what I really wanted to do all these years, you know? But aside from that, what? You know. So I mean, inside of me. That's always gonna be there, you know, I always think about it.

00:47:11.880 - 00:47:27.860

I always dream about it, and that's where it's gonna stay, you know, So I can live with with you know, what's being done and moving on from that. I can't hate them for what they do with those lands. It's their land, and they want to build something better.

00:47:27.860 - 00:47:47.470

And, you know, from what I hear, things are moving forward there. So it's progress I was about to offer them was about to ask you today How do you keep up or do you keep up with? I guess, the politics in Panama. My parents bought a house in Panama, and they're living there now, Uh, near might.

00:47:47.470 - 00:48:02.780

Oh, but I still have a couple a lot of friends that went to school with me, who were Panamanian and still live there, you know, and, uh, we keep in touch through different means. Facebook. Some of them are like xbox, uh, players. And we talk on Xbox.

00:48:03.170 - 00:48:30.790

Things like that, you know? Yes. And, you know, like, the other day I heard that Noriega had made an announcement asking for forgiveness from the Panamanian people. Things like that. Several things. Well, at this point, I don't have any more questions. Um, but I wanted to ask you if there was anything that you would like to add that we didn't get a chance to talk about.

00:48:31.370 - 00:49:01.890

Um, honestly, not, uh, Panama was a wonderful place for a lot of people my age who grew up there. We all think it was like some kind of dream, like Like it was a magical place, you know, because you everybody who grew up there, at least for my crew we always felt like we were privileged, like like you.

00:49:02.270 - 00:49:26.620

You were more privileged than anybody in the world. I don't mean privileged. Like like you. You had a life that that was, like, just better than other people know, We mean it in the sense. Like we had a magical experience with panels, you know, privileged in the sense that we got to see things that other kids aren't gonna get to see with the wildlife and the experiences that you have, You know, that's how we feel about paths.

00:49:26.620 - 00:49:37.700

Why a lot of people are always like I want to go back. You know, I want to go back there and how that is because They did a good job for us. You know, they did a good job to make Panama magical police for the kids.

00:49:38.770 - 00:49:54.270

So I was I think any other place that I would have grown up would have been like that. Cool. That's it. All right. Well, Mr Vanga, I want to thank you for your time, and this concludes our interview.