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Good afternoon. Um, today is July 4, 2015. My name is sa Say we're hearing is now we live in talking about her experiences in Panama canals. Um, so thank you very much for agreeing to do this interview today. We really appreciate it. Um, we could start by you telling us the one.

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Then where were you born? I was born in 1942 in Gorgas Hospital. In an con canals. Okay, so I am a born canal zone, Brad. Okay, so tell me a little bit about your parents and how they ended up at the canal zone. My father was an engineer.

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Plumbing, heating and air conditioning. Hey, took a one year contract in 1939 and he didn't believe until 1972. And my mother, they weren't married when he went down there. He left behind his girlfriend, fiance. I don't know exactly the saddest, but I know after he was there for a year, he said for my mother, and then she came down.

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Probably. My guess is on one of the Panama Line boats, ships, and the story was they had to get married within 123 days whatever it WAAS because she came in as a fiance or something. And that was her entry papers on. They got married before a congregation of people that my mother didn't know on.

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I don't know who her best laid Iwas or his best man waas, but that was all arranged. As a matter of fact, that was Rabbi Witkin of the U S. O J. W B was the one who married my parents. Okay, so, um, did your mom have a job that episode?

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No. No, my mother was a homemaker. Okay, Now, what is your earliest childhood memory growing up with this out rain. And then I remember lying in bed listening to the pitter patter of rain. And I used to just listen for the smallest, smallest sound. I mean, I still love the smell of smelling sound of rain.

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Okay. Did you have any siblings? I have one sister. Her name is Ruth. Mine is Naomi, both biblical. And she lives in the States now and has a child. I do not have any Children. She You're older or younger? Sister. My youngest history. 3.5 years. Okay.

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Now what would you and your sister do while you were little kids. Have fun for one year games. You play anything todo We used to love being taken to the beach. I remember my parents taking us a beach over to Rio Mark, which was long seemed like a long drive.

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It's not a long drive now as an adult, but we used to go to Rio Mar Way used to go to Panama Viejo. I used to love riding the horses. They had horses there that you could rent. Yeah, I remember the name of the guy who owned them sets up and I used to ride Satan on.

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My sister used to ride Rosie on. I found out about 30 years later. She was terrified of horses, hated horses. But how to do it? Because the big sister was way you made her e. Okay, so we talk to your family is Jewish? Yes. Was it different for you and the other with other canal Children being raised Jewish?

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Yes, Um, to some degree, Not not in the beginning, because when you're too little, you don't understand. But I remember very distinctly that when my I never questioned it. But my sister wanted a Christmas tree when we're a little on. And that was and unhappy circumstance.

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Because my mother ended up giving in, I guess because my sister was very young and I wanted one, so we had one. But as as time went by and they enrolled us in a Sabbath school in Panama Way came to understand that there were certain differences, uh, in the canal zone schools of that time, unlike schools in the States now where they're more sensitive to religious differences.

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Back then, everybody was expected to participate in Christmas carols and in eastern performances. So while we're in the canal Zone schools, it was It was Uhh. What's the word I'm looking for? I mean, it wasn't religious, but it waas Christian based, Christian based holidays. And so it was different in the sense that we had to have a separate education to understand where we came from.

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Okay? And so you have mentioned that you went to Sabbath School School school. Sorry, I'm in Panama. Yes. I don't know how he discovered this, but somewhere along the line, my father heard that there was a community impact, uh, that had a Sabbath school Saturday. school where they, you know, just like kids in Sunday school learned their religion.

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This was a Sabbath school, and it was in a Sephardic synagogues community. These people had been there back to the 16 hundreds, perhaps on their related to the Jewish community. And Curacao is my understanding on their related to the Jewish community in, um um, the Virgin Islands and probably every other Jewish community in Latin America.

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For all I know, um, they are Sephardic Jews, meaning that they trace their history back through back to Spain. Sekera, Yes, exactly. And my family's history is to Middle Europe or northern Europe, which they're they're called Ashkenazi Jews. But we became very active in that community.

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They embraced us, way became part of it. Um, my father actually became a lay rabbi for that synagogue for a while because they had no rabbi at a period of time and during that period of time, because it was a very, very strange. And you would think that since this was such a old community, it would not be a reformed Jewish community because reform movement started.

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I think in Germany in the 18 hundreds or something like that late 18 hundreds, but nonetheless they conducted their services in English. They used prayer books from the states. Um, and they had had not had not performed any bar mitzvahs on there boys as they reached 13, although they were performing confirmations.

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My father taught the confirmation class, and he conducted one of the first confirmation classes when it was three girls on one of them. Her name I would give you later. I suggest that you try to talk to her because she is related to almost every family in Panama that in the Jewish community, the Maduro's, the sauces that donkeys, Sosa's all of Spanish names and where did I leave off?

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Okay. And so then then, um, when they when they lost the rabbi, some some parents came and said, Do you think you could varmints by my son anymore? Like Well, in his view, all the rabbis is a teacher so that you could be a life rabbi you can conduct of our midst, but so he would be trained a few of these boys and perform bar mitzvahs with first.

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They inherited years and years and years. I think one of his bar mitzvah voices. Now a rabbi in the States, which I think is amusing but out of using, I think it's a nice back. Um, so let's see more about that community. How large was that of a community?

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You know, we're talking now. I was born in 42. So you know that I'm not the youngest is the person that you're interviewing, I'm sure. And I left there when I was 17 to go to college in the States and never really returned. I went back to see my parents.

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My parents were still there. My father didn't leave till 82. I went back a couple of times a couple of times when I was in college, then between college and law school, maybe maybe at one point when I was in law school, but those were just short summer vacation visits.

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But I would say I could get you people give you better statistics, but it was, you know, like most Jewish communities were like 2% of the population wherever you are. So yeah, by general principles, call it small. Okay. And then how would you thes air? How many families are paying your family's?

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Yes, in the canal zone. This is an interesting set up in the canal zone. Hopefully, you can get a hold of rabbis, one of the rabbis Children, and find out more in detail that I can provide. But, um, it was the U S O J W B Jewish Welfare Board.

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It was essentially on organization that provided a religious services, a rabbi, religious experience for people in the armed forces. And I guess people who are working overseas like people in the canal Zone now that was a minuscule population. When you say, How small is the population?

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Panama. I mean, that was a community in the canals. Oh, it was E could count them and named the families e six families, maybe seven. Can you give us their names? Well, for privacy purposes, But you worry about that. I mean, I could certainly give you their names.

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I mean, Well, there's Seymour Barca voice who was a high school teacher and his daughter. Her last name is Crouch. Now she's, um she has connections with the Panama Canal Society, so I'm sure you'll be able to get her to talk to you. Um, there waas another family clipper us um I can't remember names now, but I would say, you know, just one or two handfuls people in the canals of Jewish.

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But you do have that Panamanian Jewish community which had been there forever. And how would you say that influence eurozone Ian family? Because you would have direct relationships with your family's that lived outside of the zone. You're worshiping with a supposed to marry some of the families that live on the zone that stayed there primarily.

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How do you think that effect that your upbringing? I think it gave me a tremendous background. Very grateful. I mean, I've had experiences and people and and, uh, heard stories that I would never have heard had I never cross the border E. This wasn't the only.

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This is interesting because I got to give credit to my father. I mean, hey also reached out across the border on when I was a little kid grade school. They were offering music lessons. This was in the canal zone system and they're just passing out instruments.

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E remember going home and saying, Hey, I'd like to play an instrument. What should I play? And my father said, clarinet is a good instrument for a girl. Okay, what's clear? Net. But, um, had one or two lessons in the canal. Solar system. Somehow he found out there was a national conservatory.

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Panama on. And 123 we were enrolled in the Panamanian school system to go to school in the National Conservatory of Panama. I studied music every years and years. I actually majored in music before I went to law school, gave up the music what decided had earned a really limit.

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But that was, you know, that again contributed to the rich experience of our backgrounds. My sister at that time was only about four or five years old, and I remember she could not start taking instrument because she was too young. She had to take a year of soul fail, which is site singing.

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I was allowed to start the instrument and so fail at once. And I went all the way through that system. Uh, conservatory I I played with the, uh, symphony orchestra, the national Theater. I did a, uh, world premiere of a piece that one of the rocket toward Cordero.

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I think he was a Panamanian musician. He had been a conductor he went. I think he went up to the States. I think he was in Texas on. And I played something that he had written for clarinet and orchestra. Castel Hallmark. That's what he waas. But s o your music classes were in Spanish.

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Your music classes were in Spanish? Yes, I forgot about that for yes. And we didn't speak Spanish very well as little kids because we didn't take Spanish in school. I don't know what ended up being later, but I don't think it was offered until ninth grade Junior high school.

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But we were younger than that one at the Conservatory and facing us somewhere along the line was also going to be. We had to take Peoria, which was more sophisticated. In fact, it was equal to they freshman theory class in college. Because I know when I took freshman music theory, I knew all that stuff from Panama Conservatory.

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But that became more sophisticated. So I remember. You know, your Spanish had to be better. I started out this little kid with clarinet professor who was from Cuba. He spoke with no English. At that point, I spoke no Spanish, so everybody thought this was a hoot.

00:14:56.450 - 00:15:12.860

Because here in this little kid and you say I'm very short as it is now. So what has little as much s O on this And this lovely man from Cuba And these adult man who worked studying with him? Because, I mean, he was He was a good yes, sir.

00:15:12.870 - 00:15:43.410

Um, and they would translate for us until my Spanish got better and better. And then eventually, I didn't need the translations anymore. But at some point, my mother decided that we had to learn Spanish. So my sister had a little friend who's mother was Panamanian. And my mom arranged for her to give us Spanish lessons so that we would be more competent in Spanish so that we could deal with our music.

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Teachers, of course, later be able to take our theory classes. Yes, they were conducted in Spanish, and for a while, I had translators. How old were you when your mom decided they needed to the Spanish e Think how old I was when I started playing the clarinet.

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Uh, Junior, how old are you on your ninth grade six? That I would say maybe about fifth grade. Okay, okay, Something like that. Okay. Andi, can you tell me about about celebrating the high holidays and high month people? I'm trying to remember back to that. And you know, the high holy days are New Year's and young Kippur, the day of Atonement and services.

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I remember attending work in the Canal Zone conducted by Rabbi Witkin. Although I'm sure we must have gone in Panama as well. Thio to that temple was a temple because it was reform. I suspect we went to both, you know, maybe even, you know, part one day here and the rest of the day there.

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But my memory, the only memory I really have its vivid is, uh, U S O J Dub going there on. And, uh, services were long days of service. I mean, you sat there and as a little kid, but it was more interesting and cool. Sharif, of course, that was That was the one in Panama because eventually we sang in the choir.

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You know, you could be silly up in the choir are, uh, where there was nobody to catch you, but that's that's my recollection. And for Passover, my mother always didn't pass over in the house on invited people. I do know one year they joined the community in Panama for Passover at the probably second night at the temple.

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Am I? For some reason, I didn't guys probably studying for a test, right? And my father came back. I don't believe these people eat rice were Passover because the Ashkenazis don't eat any kind of grain. Where as far, Dean, it's like, Okay, we don't think flower, which I'm gonna take my rights away.

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Do you remember the name of the rabbi for the Panamanian temple? I got the well, Yes, the one who was there when we first went. He's long gone. He retired back then in the sixties fifties. So I graduated high school in 19 sixties. He retired in the fifties.

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His name was Rabbi Merfeld. I think his m r f B l a day, something like that. And he was an American, and I and for some reason, Texas comes to mind. I don't know why. I don't know if he retired, went to Texas or something like that.

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And then there was a long period of time that there was nobody. That's when my father got very active. And then there was a younger man that they had. He was only there for a couple of years, and then a gap again. And the one who's there for a couple of years, I cannot remember his name, but he was also from the States.

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So this won't have to tell you something more, because I was just just focusing on this coal Sharif community. Yeah, there were actually two other communities, and yeah, Okay, let me try to think there's one. There was one that was called Benefit Ciencia. I don't know what it was called the benefits ciencia, but it was a group of Jews who had immigrated at the either during or the end of World War Two.

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So they would have been among the persecute who got out or either got out before or left over and survived and got out after and they were on. I have a friend from that community who I've just found after 45 years hoping this year. So, um, Polish Jews and German Jews on, uh yeah, organizing community.

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Then there is a third community that were against the party, but not there would be not the Sephardic who came from through Spain and Portugal thes were the ones who stayed in, uh, in Syria on that area. And then I don't know exactly what their story was, how they emigrated to Panama.

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But that was a distinct third community that was extremely orthodox and had okay, somewhat different practices. I remember my father taking us the confirmation class to see what different practices were. I remember being in their temple and how I was taken aback to say the least.

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E guess I'm an original feminist on taken aback by the fact that we had to sit up in the balcony, the women, because women and men don't mix. Okay, But my father came up in the balcony to tell us what was going on. So I guess it's OK for him to be up there to teach us, but forbidden for us to be downstairs on the main floor where the men work and yours because I know, um e told you a lot of work with the Salvadoran community and up until I think it was the seventies in the synagogue, members sit in the front.

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The Children were about to say, I think in the second row. And then the woman was sitting the last isles. Is that how your synagogue waas? Not in the reform that never for my farm Temple. You know, we're all equal. Okay, in the synagogue, I'm talking to you.

00:21:56.650 - 00:22:20.060

About which waas the other. So Florida community that came out of Syria on the Middle East? Uh, definitely. The men were. But instead of men, Children, women, there was two stories status. They men were on the main floor and the women had a balcony seating area.

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And that that was that's not that's how do I put this? Um, that's just one way of achieving that dividing. There was other ways of doing it like the one that you have. You heard about where they sat in the back. Sometimes there was a screen in the old days, a women to be behind the screen and the men in the forward section.

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But they're up in the balcony, even if they're not there to distract the men. I guess that's the theory of it. I'm not exactly since I inclined to feminism e don't want me put in the position of having to explain it Yeah. What's happened? Things that you learn the confirmation classes.

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Oh, gosh. Back. So far you're talking about when I was 13, my dear, so long ago, Um, the confirmation classes, I in the confirmation classes. You again. You review history, you review your responsibilities, you review the holidays and you learn what it is to take on the responsibility of being a Jewish woman or Jewish male.

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And e. It's It's a combination of religious and cultural, of how to conduct your life and be a good person. And when you're confirmed, you take on the responsibility of being an adult living a proper life. Did you take Hebrew process we did on? Don't you dare ask me?

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Way did. And for a while I could read it, not necessarily know what it meant, but read it. But I couldn't possibly address it anymore. Yeah, but But we did have some people process. Yes. All right. Um, And your example? Did anybody from that survived what we're to also have about your temple?

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Or was it did the same? Mostly just the community that was there before, in which in yours you know, Cherie, did anybody that was forwards to survivors. They were in that one. They were not. World War Two survivors. Groceries had been the community that was essentially there, You know, from early settlement time, three survivors were seem to have been mostly the benefits.

00:24:44.500 - 00:25:05.050

Ciencia. Yeah, they were. That was the community. And they were. I always actually revisited this with my sister last night because I knew some of these questions were coming up. She says she thinks they were also Orthodox community. Okay, And then you're a temple. Have a cemetery.

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I don't know when you're when you're 17, you don't think about things like that. But I do know they have memorial plaques on the wall. I do know the temple has moved. The one that I was brought up in no long was sold. E New one was built in a newer area of Panama, which I visited.

00:25:33.040 - 00:25:55.750

Actually, I went back to Panama for the first time in 2000 and six. I was the first time in 40 some odd years, and I did go to the new temple and the plaques that had been in the old temple, including my parents names on the flat on memorial plaques were on the wall, and the way that was achieved is another strange story.

00:25:55.760 - 00:26:22.160

Because I had lost contact. I will admit that I came to the States and lost contact and a TSA, Um, point. My husband called me because he was a businessman and he was at some sort of a business thing. McGee. And he said, Hey, I met somebody from your temple and Panama's What are you talking about?

00:26:22.860 - 00:26:41.280

And he ended up talking to some guy and the guy cities from Panama. Oh, my wife from Panama and so on and so forth. And it turned out that this matter people I knew and my mother had my mother's name was on a plaque because my father had taken care of that.

00:26:41.280 - 00:27:21.350

She predeceased him, and But I had never done anything about, you know, the memorial plaque and I ended up talking to this man. He put me in contact with people who remembered me, who remembered my family in Panama. I had my father's name put up on the memorial plaque, and when we went there in 2000 and six, way went to a Friday night service and happened, I've been to New York site on my mother's death, and they were reading the names of the people whose anniversary of the death it waas and there my mother's name got red and my my hair stood up on my head because he thinks community that, you know, they truly embraced us.

00:27:21.350 - 00:27:39.900

We weren't way weren't born into it. But they embraced us. And they're still saying your site for my mother all these years after her death. So I think that's kind of cool. Listen something. Wait, that's my That's my mom's today, of course. The now it's very strange things.

00:27:39.910 - 00:28:10.980

Life has changed. Ah, lot of I think Colombians and other Latin American, um, countries people have moved up to Panama and the congregation has changed. You've got the ones that were there because new additions and now the services were conducted in Spanish. So I was listening to my mother's name all of a sudden being saying with a Spanish accent before I could react, it had passed.

00:28:11.340 - 00:28:25.860

Yes. So are you very active? I mean, that's also you go to high school, you're involved in your high school activities, but I know you how your Friday Night Services a Saturday morning. If this man yet, Honey, we were never out of school between the conservatory Uh huh.

00:28:26.040 - 00:28:54.150

And the canals on schools and services. Oh, I can't remember when we weren't either studying or doing. Oh, and I forgot to mention bears out of this because that that was we studied ballet bears out of this, which was part of my, which was part of the Panamanian school system to e just wanna go on the record to say that the most remarkable thing about this it's we know that Panamanian kids for going canals on schools, they paid tuition to do so.

00:28:55.440 - 00:29:18.460

We went into Panama schools and they welcomed us. I don't think we pay tuition a za child. I wouldn't really know. But my impression waas that the Panamanians just welcomed us, just like we were welcomed into that temple. So my my experiences a child. What was it like?

00:29:18.470 - 00:29:54.280

Are they grateful for grateful for these terrific experiences? So what were your friendship side with your friends in the zone? And your friends? Um, like the kind of man is that you would encounter and like, your arts classes and you're Jewish passes? Well, Strangely enough, most of the Jewish kids that I was associated with in my age group at the temple in Panama also attended the canals on schools and this'll one gallon going whose name I'm going to give you related to all these people with her father.

00:29:55.140 - 00:30:19.110

Oh, let me say her father was from the Virgin Islands. She's American. Her mother's family either from the Virgin Islands of her parents. So she's related all the families, she that she is American. And she was my buddy. She was in my confirmation class and the other girl in my confirmation class, Waas, the daughter of American businessman in Panama.

00:30:19.120 - 00:30:42.050

So she also went to the canals. Schools probably paid tuition, I suspect. Not sure, but our so my group of friends pretty much stayed the same because they to the extent that arm you know as faras the the synagogue and Panama goes with people who are my contemporaries.

00:30:42.640 - 00:31:06.710

We're also in the collapse of schools. So there was a big difference in Yeah. Okay. So what would you all do when you weren't in school? What would you do to the CAFTA? Relax. If you had three time, I just It just seems like obvious in school.

00:31:06.720 - 00:31:26.820

But But beach, everybody loved the beach. I mean, I remember getting sunburns as a kid. Merciless sunburns. I remember the spell of Noxeema. We used to slather it on ourselves to take the sunburn pain away because we would stay in the water so much. Love the water and we love the sand in the swimming.

00:31:26.830 - 00:31:48.660

And that's that's That's what I did for sport with swim and enjoy the beach, him and pool with on I was gonna act. So while you were living in Panama as a teenager, Israel will starting to develop and all since we're going on in the world that like a what were your Dawson as a teenager growing up?

00:31:49.740 - 00:32:11.280

I remember as a teenager, I wanted to go there. E thought it would, you know, every everything becomes glamorized through the press or things that you here. But I also know it was a dangerous place and I'm gonna terribly risk taking person. Uh, but I did think of the United States to be on a couple.

00:32:11.280 - 00:32:39.510

It's and that sort of daydreaming type thing. In reality, I to this day I've never been because I'm a coward. E like being in danger on. Did you have contact with other Jewish communities in the rest of Latin America as a child? No. I know that the community that we were in in Panama certainly did because they're related to them.

00:32:39.520 - 00:33:03.260

Like I said, what in chorus al I know is we went to visit my husband and I wear on a cruise, I think, stopping for us out. We went and visited the temple there and remember going upstairs to look at their little museum. And lo and behold, there was a a Torah cover.

00:33:03.730 - 00:33:20.020

Don't given Thio that congregation by the congregation culture with Israel, which is the one in Panama. I went, Wow, that's my temple. You know, there's a grew up with that. So we went downstairs talking to the lady who was in the museum. I ended up we ended up way.

00:33:20.030 - 00:33:40.400

I ended up playing. What might husband labeled Caribbean Jewish geography? Do you know this person? Do you know that family? Do you know the other family? She this woman in curls out actually, new people in Panama, with whom my parents had been very good friends on Those were people who came from the temple in Panama.

00:33:40.410 - 00:34:02.180

So yes, cook. The people in curse out are related to same last names as the people in Panama. Do you remember your father mentioned anything about an organization called Federico? It was the Federation of Jewish Communities of Central America. Panama. When was that? I think I started, If not in the late sixties and for sure, in the seventies.

00:34:04.240 - 00:34:29.480

I was just, you know, See, I would have been gone by E. Don't remember him mentioning that. Okay, Another thing he was He was very. Hmm. That's interesting. No, I don't. Okay. Another thing He was a very active in was in masonry. Hey, was he was big shot.

00:34:29.480 - 00:34:55.930

Mason. I forget, Rainbow girl. You see if we never had time for any way Rainbow Girls Rainbow Girls was on Wednesday night. Rainbow Girls is a Masonic girls organization. Okay, on he waas a mason and he waas district Grandmaster down there happening in master His lodge, I think.

00:34:55.940 - 00:35:12.130

What's the highest 33rd degree? I don't know. I don't remember, but, you know, way up. I think he's a 33rd degree mason. And so he was very active in that sort of thing too. So I thought your father was, like my mother. Every aspect of your life.

00:35:12.140 - 00:35:30.670

Yeah. And my mother, my mother is the one who used to take us to the conservatory. I remember would come home from school. My sister ended up playing cello. A little girl with this big cello. My mother had a cello under one arm and our music under the other two kids in tow with their instruments.

00:35:30.670 - 00:35:47.830

And we go on Achieva into which was just one of these little bitty Busses public bus and go on the cheap downtown toe Avenida onto the conservatory. And then he would come pick us up after, you know, after we're done after school. I'm not after school after his work was done.

00:35:47.830 - 00:36:02.160

And after we're done with our lessons eso between the two of them. I don't know how they had time for anything else, but with all the stuff. They had a school but kept us out of trouble. Yeah, on dure their friends that your mom like her friends?

00:36:02.160 - 00:36:31.740

Mostly other woman in the zone, Jewish one from the temple. Uh, women in the zone and and people from the temple. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, she I remember some neighbors with whom we were very good friends. Um, And when I did this Caribbean Jewish geography with this lady, I wanted to know if these people who my parents were still alive and I found out they were now gone, but because they were always friendly with families from over the house and do things together.

00:36:32.130 - 00:37:02.510

But you're talking to somebody. You know, when you're 17, you're living your own life, right? You're not paying that much attention to what your parents are doing. But I do remember these people, and I do. When we were back there in 2000 and six through a classmate of mine double high school class of 60 she wasn't gonna be in town about the time she hooked me up with some other people to make sure I got to the temple.

00:37:02.520 - 00:37:20.990

Uh, and, um, although I didn't know them, they knew people who knew my family. And we had Friday night dinner at their home after temple in 2006 and people at the table who knew my family. So that was you know, to me, after all, these years it was astonishing.

00:37:20.990 - 00:37:42.910

And I was very grateful for the whole experience. Was that coming home? Upstarts? Yeah, Waas. I didn't think it was possible. You know, they always say, you can't come home again. It's not true. It really isn't. And when we were in Panama, even though we're starting to boom starting to grow um it felt familiar.

00:37:42.920 - 00:38:10.580

That rain, that rain is still e e Imagine. Okay, so you said after you graduated high school, you came to the states for college. E came to the states for college. I went to Mills College in Oakland, California Woman school. That was another. I had already paid my deposited a think University of Wisconsin, and I remember being called into the office by the principal Ice Cross.

00:38:10.590 - 00:38:40.150

I never get I'm a goody two shoes. Why? I'm being called into the office. And he said, Hey, I heard from Mills College. You may wanna finish your application because they're willing to give you a full scholarship room board intuition. I went home and my father says you make out that application e put in a half baked application because my friend Dora, who was from that um, benefits NC a community, The refugee community.

00:38:40.160 - 00:38:59.130

Um, it was a couple of years ahead of me, and she also went to that babble high school. And she had a friend, Chinese, Panamanian, Chinese girl Dolly Chen, who was going to Mills college. Dolly came home for the summer, and it sounded like a very nice place to me.

00:38:59.130 - 00:39:17.650

And she talked about it to my parents and such, and to keep everybody happy, I put in an application, but half heartedly. And that's how I ended up in Mills because they went okay. We want you. Yeah, so? So I went there. I'm glad it was serendipitous.

00:39:18.020 - 00:39:42.260

It's, You know, it's sort of like a Forest Gump moment. You were there, and then all of a sudden, you're in the middle of it. Um and it was, uh, you know, in the middle of the movie, in the middle of of this, this thing that you weren't expecting to happen, you didn't You didn't work towards that.

00:39:42.260 - 00:39:59.280

I was actually going to go to the University of Wisconsin, and then all of a sudden they just snatched me up in here. I wasn't mills, but it was good because it was a woman's college was another terrific experience I had. I think there is a very important place for women's colleges.

00:39:59.290 - 00:40:23.640

I think women learn to express themselves more freely on to achieve more. The people that I know who went toe women's colleges, air all very e should all very big achievers. But many of them have been successful, and I think this background of women's colleges is important.

00:40:23.650 - 00:40:49.620

And I did go there and I made some very good friends on because of another serendipitous encounter. Ended up going to law school because I ended up. I had my master. I had my music degree. I was going to go for a masters and knew that if I couldn't imagine what I do for a living, however, except teaching a college, what do you do with a master's degree?

00:40:49.630 - 00:41:12.650

I was gonna go for masters in art. Actually, I was looking for a master's degree and art to go with my undergraduate degree and using, uh, where am I gonna end up? I'm just gonna end up teaching academia and I don't know, that's me. And I had a friend that I made it Mills College But Naomi don't remember how excited you got when you saw forget what the name of the movie was.

00:41:12.650 - 00:41:28.950

But it was a trialing movie about a trial. You should go to law school. You know what, Nancy? You're right. I think the will. That's how I went to law school. It's weird, but where did you go? Law school? Um, Hastings, College of the Law. University of California.

00:41:28.960 - 00:41:52.890

On it. It was that z my calling. It really worked. So what's happened? LA. Have you practice litigation against that? In California, California, New York, Massachusetts. But Massachusetts. I will say, I don't have a license, Massachusetts. But you could practice law in federal courts. So why is your only representing Uncle Sam?

00:41:52.900 - 00:42:14.480

I worked for the Justice Department when I was in Massachusetts. Okay. And when did you get married? Yeah. How did you meet your husband? Had that? That's that's That's another long distance thing. How did that happen? Let's see. So I went down to Washington D. C.

00:42:14.490 - 00:42:36.240

For a hearing in federal court When I was in my New York law firm and I was early. The E took an earlier plane because, you know, I didn't wanna be late. Then I had way too much time. So we had a small Washington D C office with two partners in it.

00:42:36.900 - 00:42:55.040

And I had gone down there who, several months before, to work on something. So I knew one of them well, and I called and he wasn't there. Okay, I guess I'm just gonna sit around in court, wait until the case gets called on the other partner got on the phone, You come on down, let's go to lunch.

00:42:55.040 - 00:43:17.170

You don't have to waste your time sitting in a courtroom waiting for things to happen. You've got hours yet come have lunch with. So I did way ended up talking. They said I had this friend. So shall I have him call you? Yeah, Why not? So I was in a New York firm.

00:43:17.180 - 00:43:43.960

This was the Washington D. C. Partner of the New York firm putting me in touch with putting his friend in touch with and his friend Waas in Massachusetts. So I met David over the phone booth, and we dated from Massachusetts to New York for years, several years until his mother told him, you know, things traveling back and forth is nonsense.

00:43:43.960 - 00:44:09.230

You should. Why don't you get married? So way moved up to Massachusetts. Okay. What year did you graduate Law school? 1968 1960. And you started working right away. Oh, yes. What was it like being a female lawyer during that time? I gotta tell you, it was really different.

00:44:09.590 - 00:44:36.220

I sometimes think to myself. I was five years younger. I could be Hillary Clinton, but I'm five years older, so things weren't is easy. Not that I'm sure they weren't easy for her, but they had opened up by the time she started. Oh, I remember being called up for an interview.

00:44:37.190 - 00:45:01.620

I had a very fancy San Francisco. All of them. And the guy having the total nerve to say to me. Well, thank you very much. I want you to see you because you know, you're at the top of your class. And I just wanted to meet you, but I don't think our clients are ready to have a woman lawyer.

00:45:03.590 - 00:45:25.720

Honest to God, Honest to God. Yes, I'm advocating. No, no, I am not kidding. You like the audacity? It's just like yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. And as a Young as a young female lawyer. So when I started traveling, I had to fight my way to When I went to this, I'm jumping ahead.

00:45:25.730 - 00:45:50.200

I'll feel it. I'll feel it. But when I went when I was in New York and I worked my way up to a fairly senior position in a pretty fancy Madison Avenue firm and I was sent out to California with a male junior associate junior to me, essentially the bag carrier, right and I was going there for depositions or something.

00:45:50.200 - 00:46:13.270

I don't remember what we checked into the Beverly Hills hotel and we got our rooms. And I remember getting this bloom closet every room, like a room that had been tucked under a stairwell somewhere and so teeny and I ended up calling. The young man said, Hey, how do you like your room?

00:46:13.280 - 00:46:42.610

Oh, it's great. Is this? It's that it's the other I said, Okay, enjoy. I call the desk and I said, Hey, let me tell you what's going on. Have you ever heard about that book title seven or something? Doesn't book book, book book on Pretty soon I had a new room was a sweet no extra charge for the Swedes, But you have to fight your way.

00:46:43.920 - 00:47:10.960

You had to fight your way And how, like when you were in law school, how do your professors treat you? I was, uh, having come from a all women college. I waas terrifying because I was sitting in class and around me where these guys who had all been to find a fine undergraduate schools, you know, Harvard, Yale, you Oh, my God.

00:47:10.960 - 00:47:26.590

I just want a woman's colleges. I good enough, and I'm gonna you know, am I gonna do well? And then the professors come in and they're very harsh sounding Socratic method. Yeah. And have you have you ever seen? It's an old movie. What's called the paper chase?

00:47:26.600 - 00:47:55.150

No, I've heard it's really good and that I should really was my professor, honest to God, that I had a torts professor who was exactly as that actor portrayed that caricature of a tough law school professor, and he just scared the pants off of everybody. But, you know, they didn't call honey any more or any less than anybody else.

00:47:56.080 - 00:48:21.710

I remember avoiding bright colored clothes. Eso they wouldn't notice me so they wouldn't call on me until until I started getting more and more comfortable. And we were very few, Um, or if you are very few women, uh, less than 10% of the time. Now, you know, it's over 50% in law schools there with, but it was less than it was less than 10%.

00:48:22.170 - 00:48:54.990

And it was the cutting edge. It was the beginning because, like, I mean that interview with that firm on the ice. But, you know, I should have been shocked and aggressive about it, but in that in those days, in the beginning, you took it. I remember well, after I graduated from those college people, I went for a year because by the time I decided to go to law school and implied it was like at the end of the summer and I applied for September and I was No, no, sweetie, you don't do it that way.

00:48:55.000 - 00:49:21.400

You can apply now for next year s o. I waited the year out and I worked for a nice man and accountant in in San Francisco, actually was a Holocaust survivor, and, um, in that in that time, I was my train of thought e forgot what was going anyway.

00:49:21.410 - 00:49:43.600

What was the question e took you? I took you on a journey to I went off on a side tractor with with the guy that I worked for, but anyway Oh, yes, I remember just applying to law school. I got called in by the dean. How they they interview everybody before they admit them?

00:49:43.610 - 00:50:10.590

No. He wanted to see what this music major look like, who had the nerve to apply to go to law school, but who had really, really high else? ATT's things were different. Seriously, But he didn't. Yeah, you made it. Yeah. Yeah, when you went to college, you know that your grasp.

00:50:10.590 - 00:50:45.120

What did you say? Practicing Judaism. No. No. Okay. No, I have drifted away to me, but it is. It is part of my identity. And it's my cultural heritage. And in that sense, it's still part of me. A Sfar as religious ceremonies on beliefs, I would say I'm in the realm of an agnostic.

00:50:45.130 - 00:51:18.020

Okay. Is your husband Jewish? Yes, he is. Okay. Uh huh. Also brought up reform, okay. And foreign and raised in Boston. And my fierce still is still practicing you in the sense that you celebrate the holidays. Okay, I was in the act. So when you start college and you moved to California, I mean, the civil rights movement started, like, right off when you were in school, right?

00:51:18.030 - 00:51:39.770

Yeah. How is that? Like going from living in the Panama Canal zone there, And then just you go to United States and all of this is erupting. You know, it's going on in as in college from 60 to 64. It really didn't seemed to affect California that much.

00:51:39.780 - 00:52:08.660

California was out there from most of the action. Um, but I did have one interesting experience that made me. I think this was the right thing to be happening because I remember. Remember, my parents came up to the States. I guess it must have been my at the end of my sophomore junior year.

00:52:08.670 - 00:52:23.200

Came up to the stage. We drove across the country when I drove back down with them to, uh, New Orleans and they put their car on the boat, went back to span off. I took a bus. Why? Oh, no, it's the end of my senior year.

00:52:23.210 - 00:52:47.830

Was the end of my senior year because, um, I took a bus back from New Orleans to California. Horrible trip. On. The most vivid memory of that trip was a black man, an old black man getting on the bus, and there was a seat next to me on again.

00:52:47.840 - 00:53:19.350

I missed the moment because I was young and powered like the driver said, No, you can't sit there standing well with us. Wouldn't let him sit next to a white girl. Always regretted not having the courage to say something And then, you know, because I've been on Friday from the Panama Canal Zone and there was a gold standard of silver standard, you interact much with the Silver Standard community.

00:53:21.050 - 00:53:41.760

Yes. Okay, but yes and no. I mean, it was strange, um, women who worked in the commissary and the woman who worked in the clubhouse. I remember my my mother being very friendly with, they knew each other by name and being very friendly. And there's, um but you didn't socialize.

00:53:43.120 - 00:54:05.930

It didn't socialize. And I remember being in denial about it all these years, reading David McCullough's book and being annoyed like he keeps talking about segregation. But it wasn't segregation. There's the silver standard in the gold standard. Had to do with citizenship, not color. But I've come to accept the reality.

00:54:05.930 - 00:54:22.530

There's a combination of the two mhm. And it truly was there. Yeah, because and then you get to the United States and the incident happens on the bus. Yeah, but But that wouldn't have happened to Panama, though That person would have sat next to you. That would have been that it wouldn't.

00:54:22.540 - 00:54:40.500

There was not that kind of a I mean, I know they had silver fountains and gold fountains within the canal zone. But, you see, the muscles were Panamanian. The chief is that we're writing in through the zone where Panamanian on there was no such thing as a gold seat was over city.

00:54:41.540 - 00:55:04.160

Mm. And in Panama itself, there is no such thing. Yeah, at the conservatory, there was certainly no such thing made. My professor was a very white Cuban. Luego, the guy who translated for me was a very black, Spanish and English speaking person, probably from Barbados or something.

00:55:04.220 - 00:55:21.670

You know, we're probably from one of the islands, okay? And it didn't matter, and he was standing right there next to me, taking presents from the same teacher. Yeah, okay. But that was on the other side of the line, which is which is what makes my experience.

00:55:22.000 - 00:55:42.270

So why was I shocked when that happened on the bus in the States? Because I did never happened. Event that. And like I said, I'm Indiana. I was in denial about the silver standard and gold standard. I e. Pay attention, but when you're on the Panama side of the line, you didn't have those issues.

00:55:42.840 - 00:56:02.260

Okay, um and you said, How long did your father and your mother stay in Panama? I think that's why he went down in 39 he left in 82 82. So you know what was what were your parents starts on, You know, the flag riots, transferring up the canal to the Panamanians.

00:56:02.270 - 00:56:42.370

Do you have conversations about that at all? No, not really. I have had many conversations with Zone Ian's. Of course, they felt they Jerry, Jimmy Carter did us in on. There's a lot of resentment along those lines, but Okay. Yeah, I felt regret. Mm. That canal was transferred back to Panama that it was the end of an era that that's why I thought I could never go back.

00:56:42.380 - 00:57:08.540

I thought it was feel totally different, yet it didn't people. But I'm sure that my father disagreed with the transfer. But I think he would probably would have acknowledged that Panama was ready to handle it because he had been examiner for various engineers who took engineering exams.

00:57:08.540 - 00:57:34.310

He was on the board of engineering examples or something like that. And, um, you know, people Panamanians were acquiring credentials on the ability to run the run. The place. Yeah. All right. So I just have a couple more questions. Sure. Um, you said the first time that you went back to visit was in 2000 and six, 2006.

00:57:34.310 - 00:57:54.040

That would have been the first time since Oh, well, my parents left in 82. So somewhere between 82 2006. Okay. And did you go see the canal? Yes. And what were your impressions? Well, they didn't. They hadn't started the third set of locks. Yes. Mhm. So what?

00:57:54.050 - 00:58:14.390

I thought I thought it was marvelous. I thought that the tourist station that they had built it. Miraflores, where they had these lovely lunches when you could sit there and watch the transit was was marvelous. And why didn't the Americans figure out? E thought it was?

00:58:14.400 - 00:58:37.160

I thought it was wonderful. And I thought things looked smooth and terrific. Yeah. Okay, Andi, then e was good. Have you been back 2000 and six? No. I intend to go any moment when I get my act together. Okay. Andi, why don't you keep coming back to these reunions?

00:58:37.160 - 00:59:01.900

What makes him so special? E. It's It's a bit of homesickness. I do keep coming back. It's not just for, you know, the big ones where we have a class reunion, E. I mean, sometimes I drive across from Sarasota here, maybe for a day trip or something, just to see just to see what the vendors have and what's going on and get a little bit of that feeling of home.

00:59:02.520 - 00:59:21.340

And it z just the homing instinct. I suppose so. That was you were considered at your home, in a way like very revenge. Calico. Yeah, I dio it is home. Even though I don't live there, even though I haven't lived there in years and may never return there.

00:59:21.350 - 00:59:46.240

You know, I'm sure you've heard this from a lot of people you've interviewed. They're saying that once you drink from the shag rece e heard that you have No. Oh, my God. What? You drink from the shag, issue your own bythe. Okay. And then my last question is, if you could describe your experience living in the zone in one word, what word would it be?

00:59:46.250 - 01:00:16.880

Magical. It's very pretty magical. And why? Why, yes, The physical beauty of Panama is extraordinary. The wildlife. Exactly. I mean, I had a monkey when I was a kid. I had parents. I had I had parakeets, um, uh, somebody in my class and they called his father jungle gym.

01:00:16.880 - 01:00:46.560

He had an ocelot e mean for a kid. What's more magical than that? I mean, that smells the to me. Anything that's of nature makes me think of Panama. The richness of it, the smells, lighting, all of the all of the natural beauty to me is the magic and the character of the people.

01:00:46.570 - 01:01:07.130

Let's not forget that. Yeah, they are a happy people. I don't know why. I don't know why The Panamanian personality is so joyful, but it is okay. All right, then. Well, I don't have any other questions. I don't know if there's something you would like to add that perhaps it didn't cover in the interview.

01:01:08.110 - 01:01:27.000

Um, no. But I will supply you with names of people if you wanna follow through on the Jewish angle, because I think that a zai remember them. But I certainly give you my friends to Rita's, uh, address and, uh, email. I don't have any with me, but yeah, already.

01:01:27.180 - 01:01:48.300

I'm a text. Your temple. Have a Torah Haven't Santora. Oh, gosh. Yes. Okay. Oh, because I just assumed that they had a full art. They had They had the Torah. They had the op Tora. They had the covers. They had the silver plates that they put on it.

01:01:48.310 - 01:02:02.950

Certainly. Yes. Well, that's the command I've been working on. It's from like when they started until, like when the community really developed. So in the beginning, they didn't have a tour and they would have to drive eight hours to go to Guatemala to get a tour for the services s I I asked.

01:02:02.960 - 01:02:23.150

Thing was in Panama City and these people were e so well established part of of life animal that they were well supplied. Okay, well, thank you so much for sharing your story with us today. I really appreciate it. You're certainly well, okay. And this concludes this interview.