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Good morning. This is a chance necessary. But the summer proctor or history program? Um, this is August 15 15, 2000 and 14 were here with Mr Leroy. A lien talking about Cyber city. Thank service. It's not seriously, It's not so Okay, it's gumbo. Uh huh. Okay, um So thank you so much for being here today and dealing with parking on campus.

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Um, if you could please tell us your name where you were born. Where? When you were born. My name is Leroy. A lien on one or seven. Andi, I was born in Gorgas Hospital in an con in the canal zone in Panama. I'm 74 years old.

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Yeah, And what else you wanted Now? Okay, um, how did your parents come to be in the Panama Canal? Well, my grandparents, my grandfather, my grandmother on both my maternal and paternal side came looking for work. That's basically during the construction of the canal. Um, my father was born in 1912.

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My mother was born in 1919 1919. Uh, they were married in 1939 into Panama City, and I'm the product of them. Like I said, I'm one of seven. And we grew up basically in Gamboa in the canal zone for Mike and Allison. Unless Panama went in 1967.

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I always already married. I had my daughter and I, uh, immigrated to New York City. I've been in the state since 1967. My works at several places. You want to know about our working street? Sure. Okay. I was trained. I should say that I did go toe high school.

00:02:28.320 - 00:03:02.870

I went to high school in in Paris. Oh, uh, in a Panama Canal. And I graduated from high school there in 1959. And for the next two years, I went Thio Canal Zone Junior College were I graduated in 61 from got married, had my daughter and I worked at a research lab, mainly at a research lab.

00:03:03.540 - 00:03:36.650

Uh, that deer army conducted in final studying tropical. Uh huh. Mike ology my ecology having to do with fungus. Okay. And from there a immigrated to the United States. Like I said, in 1967 I was trained as a profusion ist a cardio profusion, ist it, basically operating a heart lung machine.

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I did that for 36 years. and I retired in 2003 I worked at two hospitals in your one was Kings County and downstate and the other for six years. And the other was ST Francis Hospital on Long Island for 30 years. So I retired in 2003 on.

00:04:04.120 - 00:04:28.170

I've retired since I haven't been working since. So can we go back up it to your parents? What work did they do independently? Canal Zone. My father, Uh, luckily, he was a Boston on a trench. A dredge is what helps to keep the Panama Canal clear off slides in that kind of stuff.

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Um, what else you want? And your mom? My mom was a domestic to domestic. Okay. And how would you describe your experience growing up and you setting Gamboa was grab. How is it going, boys? Located pretty much in the middle of the canal. And it was It was a town that was separated by blacks on one side and whites and the other on all that's entailing that that history.

00:05:04.840 - 00:05:31.960

I mean, do you want to talk a bit more about that about because we've done several service city interviews, but we usually get more about the white part of the town. Oh, I see. But so well, our way were about 20 miles from Panama City. Okay, that's when the next town was about 10 miles away on and beat.

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We were kind of I wouldn't say isolated, but way. Let me dio described. Right, um, were gone. Boy is in regards to the kind of gone boy is located at the mouth of the Chagres River s So you had to cross a bridge to come to our town, okay.

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And the train, they had a train stop there and so forth. But being we were sort of not isolated but separated. We still had black and white. And but the difference, I think in gun boys that the teachers, most of the teachers lived in community. Her parents knew the teachers.

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There was a commissary. And in theater and so forth, a separate theater three commissary was separated. You know, on one side is blacks and locals, and the other side was what they call it gold. It was with mostly American whites, you know, So But where I think gumbo was different than that.

00:06:52.240 - 00:07:17.460

The education and the people that worked in schools and so forth also lived in the community. And therefore, you know, it was kind of cold. It was more like a a village that nurtured its young. So that's one of the things that that you might find would if you interview anybody from God bar.

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So the concept of it takes a village to raise a child was very, very strong. Okay, gone. Boy. You know, most of the teachers just lived here. Yeah, and you're a parent, so if you act up in school, you know, exactly. So it was very cohesive, and we encourage each other.

00:07:41.740 - 00:08:01.710

You know I am. No. When I was growing up, Yeah, the reason I went to college was because of a friend of mine. Yeah. And, uh, neither of my parents had at any eighth grade education, so yeah, and I was the first one to go to college.

00:08:01.710 - 00:08:26.870

And since then, pretty much every everybody else last week is good. The oldest. So everybody followed in your foodstuffs. Basically The other thing, though, can answer. I will tell you this one thing. It kinda in between the college that I went to only accepted 10 Panamanians When I went per year.

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Oh, well, that's what I was gonna actually, because you said in your section, it was It was like non Americans and in the Panamanian locals as well. So how was that? I guess that exchange of culture, because I imagine you had people from Panama and then, like your parents, he said it from Barbados and from Jamaica.

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Your grandparent's okay? Yeah, but my parents grew up in Panama City. Panama City. Yeah, so you know. But we had friends. I knew I had cousins that lived in Panama City and so forth. So we went back and forth. Eso you said the college only accept the 10 kind of media.

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Wow. Yeah. So that's what I'm on. That's where you are. But you were You were considered a Panamanian. Yes. Yeah. Okay. I'm still gonna see a Panamanian. Okay. E, have you have feel for this stuff? Do you visit there often? Oh, yes. OK, there in April.

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April. Do you stay for extended periods of time? No, I pretty much go back by tomorrow. You at least once a year e still have a broad. And my sister came there. Well, wow. Please did Excuse me. So can you tell me a lot about what was your your middle school and high school experience there like, Well, how?

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The areas. Obviously we went thio all Panamanian high school thing. They thing that that change in 1955 when I started high school with a change in the policy in any educational policy in the kind of zone. Okay, all through my my elementary end, my middle schools, we were taught primarily in English in 1955.

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They changed, you know, all fun of me and our local schools change the Spanish. Why? Well, because the the the negotiations with the Panamanian and Americans and so forth. And it was there a benefit, to be honest, needless, the saying, um a lot of people they won't welcome to change.

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But it was to our benefit. And And that kind of created a kind of cohesiveness to because even other guys from different towns I can still call them e still see them? No. Only then because And I think because of that pressure created that cohesiveness among us.

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Okay. Yeah, Emilio, He grew up on the other side off the Panamericana. Okay, that's where the silver city comes in. OK, defensive excited had Thio not Boca. What's one town? Uh, Theresa was another town. That's where I went to high school. Gun boy was another town.

00:11:52.320 - 00:12:15.620

It was Petr Miguel too. And somewhere else Another town named Red Tank. But by the time I got to high school, but it was no more. But a couple of my schoolmates Yeah, lived in a tank. So silver cities on the other side Your ankle on site called on side of the Atlantic Atlantic.

00:12:15.630 - 00:12:43.270

Okay. Around the Pacific E. Did you have exchanged to a lot of people? Not Not really. Uh, like I said, Grandpa was a little isolated. They changed the name in in In thinking 55. Just our section was called Santa Cruz, which is an old name for that area because there was an old Spanish name for that day or so.

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But so what else? Your fault. Your parents Did they ever leave Anima? That's Kanada Didn't stay there. Well, my father had an accident and he died back in 73. Yeah, okay. On demand. But he lived pretty much well for growing up in Panama City. You lived all this life in the gumbo.

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Mother, my mother will grow up in Panama City to Andi. Uh, she After my father died, she moved into, uh, on outskirts of Panama City, which you don't name was Rio. Okay, so she lived there and she died. She died in that 11 2011. That's recently mhm.

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Um, So you said it was a friend that helped encourage you to go to college? Yeah, Well, what way were hanging out? You know, Aziz guys do high school and so forth way of growing up together, you know, But he it was a little aggressive. And you knew about this, uh, this test that they were going to give Thio.

00:14:12.040 - 00:14:49.370

I'll open a means to come into the college. Some off for people that lived in narrow community had gone before. I would say that, but so we were hanging out one night at night before 2000, And my friend, whose name is Millet building a land. He, um he turned to me and he turned to another friend of mine and ask us if we wanted to goto school College.

00:14:49.840 - 00:15:17.460

I said, Yeah. You know, and then he said Okay, I'll call you in the morning. He called in the morning. I was sleeping on my my woke me up and said, Hey, your friend mellitus is on the phone and she eavesdrops that our conversation and she asked me, asked that we hung up on and so forth.

00:15:17.460 - 00:15:47.070

She asked me, What was that all about? E. Sort of. Well, you know, you mentioned about this test so good Junior college. And she said, What is it? I said today, this was about 66 30 in the morning and she said, What time is that? I said, Well, it's scheduled for nine o'clock, I said, But I don't have any money to take the bus.

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She's having to get up, get dressed. And she gave me the money to go take the test on That was it? It was Leichtman, another friend of mine, Strong. When I became a professor of my own microbiology and spot became a Panelists cancer specialists. Yeah, and it's probably listen in Panama.

00:16:20.250 - 00:16:44.280

He still does. I saw. Remember in April, when I went back, haven't seen that it for a little while, but I understood that he's, you know, living in New Jersey. Yeah. So those are the two guys that I went toe college to it. Quality. It's You might No.

00:16:44.290 - 00:17:20.400

As you know where they're recording the your books. You know, it's your campus. Yes, you could ask. Familiar about. Well, you will see, my your book was one was El Pacifico. Uh, it was my high school yearbook. 1959 and the junior college I can't remember the name of, anyhow.

00:17:20.410 - 00:17:42.880

1961 1961 when you started for the cardinals onto new college s O that that college was run and massage for the Americans. Okay, so s so there's, like, different than distinctions between, like everyone American. You were allowed to go, but Okay, so now I'm understanding it.

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Yeah. Same thing like here. There were only making a certain amount of Latinos are blacks or whatever. I mean, you still kind of dio okay, I'm in college, so we grew up in that kind of a system. Okay, so how was it like them being in that college?

00:18:03.120 - 00:18:26.160

It was only a ton of you that we're allowed to a 10. Yeah, but it was It was great. I think you know way pulled together. We used to study together and that kind of way. So among you 10, there was a very tight relationship. Yeah, they were They among the three of us.

00:18:26.170 - 00:18:56.350

Pretty good that there was. There was e c. Two other guys from Carrizo. Uh, but we used to study together e On What were your relationship with the American students and the teachers? I didn't have any problem. That's the e Didn't have any problems. E. There was one thing that a teacher told us, you know, But it went for everybody.

00:18:56.440 - 00:19:22.000

Hey, said you don't He doesn't give our days mhm point blank. Yeah, that makes it was a hard cross. Well, hey, had a problem, but, you know, it didn't only affect I said affected everybody, you know. And so, how long were you in? Junior college was just two years.

00:19:22.000 - 00:19:45.670

And what was your degree? I had a associate degree in science and science. Why don't you fix science? Well, to be honest with you, I wanted to be a dog there. Yeah, empty, but But it helped me out. I mean, I came to the states and then I took a few courses that Brooklyn college.

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And so for the help me, Okay, because I was prepared for training E. I always actually cousins. I'm in history. I mean, the other side of the spectrum. So I really wonder why people used to go into the side. To this day. I still like popular science is one of my best in magazines and that kind of stuff, You know, e wasn't say nerdy, but e like I like science.

00:20:18.440 - 00:20:48.950

Being a nerd is not a bad thing because I'm a nerd. So s So you understand, e think reading something that you really enjoy that really interests you, e. I like to read it, to be honest with you. And sometimes I find myself up to three in the morning reading and so forth, and it has to do with mostly with science and that kind of stuff.

00:20:48.960 - 00:21:06.440

Okay, I'm curious. Cities searching online for for things. So when when you were in junior college, when you when you started, did you have already the intention that you let's say you wanted to be a doctor in Panama or did you already knew you wanted to leave?

00:21:06.450 - 00:21:33.930

I knew I wanted to leave okay. But I think I got married after day and worked in there Like I said in that research man. Okay. And after that thing, it lived. Um, because I like I said, we've done several of these interviews and a lot of the other students that would leave.

00:21:33.940 - 00:21:52.170

They would come to high school here in the States, especially in Florida. So that's and a lot of would just end up staying here in the United States. So that's why I e Yeah, well, most of the Americans, They Yeah, that's what they did. They came Thio high school thing here.

00:21:53.040 - 00:22:21.410

I don't know if e don't know how how that work for their parents. I don't know if the apparent signed contracts for a certain time and that kind of stuff, but, you know, a couple of people I knew you. I went to high school with me before and after I went to the university of, uh, some of them are our doctors.

00:22:21.410 - 00:22:52.810

Eso you spoke about how your community was? Very. It was very village, very close knit. And you were the oldest of seven Children. So did you feel you have a certain responsibility to your younger siblings. I didn't To be honest with you, I just did. You know, You know, if nobody said that you want, I tell you, my parents were very proud when I got into the college.

00:22:52.820 - 00:23:16.070

Because, like I said, neither one of them. Uh huh. Oh, any a great education. But, you know, studying was very important to them on demand. You know, my father always said he didn't want us to do what he did there to work as hard as he did.

00:23:16.080 - 00:23:41.460

You know, besides my father's job in economics, only also did upholstery in the side, you know? So you worked very hard, you know, and basically did that because I once asked him to two catty but to prepare me to go to the golf course and caddy and told me No, He said I had to do that.

00:23:42.040 - 00:24:01.760

Ondas Long Azalea, you don't have to. My dad says something that is some other because he he works, You know, like candy man. Thank you. You know he does, You know that's it. That was sort of a impetus for us. Is studying. My brother is a plumber?

00:24:02.640 - 00:24:25.100

Yeah, both for ships for ships, e have another brother. My brother in Panama is a plumber to my youngest brother is an electrician's. But he's one of these heavy duty electrician's de even with turbines and all that kind of stuff. My sister is all my sisters are.

00:24:25.100 - 00:24:49.770

Teachers are still teachers on. So you said your sister doesn't Panama. Yeah, she's a She was a teacher. Teachers are awesome. E love my teachers, um eso all of them went to school and all of them e was sister that lives in Seattle. She was a teacher to then she worked for it.

00:24:50.840 - 00:25:22.560

The city of Seattle on my youngest sister. She lives in California on she was early childhood, um, development. Basically, she runner after school center for kids ended. All of them go to college in Panama canals. Um, you have my two sisters in in, uh, the one in in Seattle and the one in, uh, in California.

00:25:23.640 - 00:25:49.670

The one is Seattle left junior college on. Went to school in Seattle, Seattle University. You were one in California. When she left, she went to Sacramento State. Uh, she got her bachelor's in speech pathology, but then she went back and got a Masters, You know, early time development.

00:25:50.040 - 00:26:05.920

So you spend quite a lot of your early years living in the palm of Canal Zone on. And then you came to New York? No, but I got married. You got married, lived in Panama City. And then But then you moved to New York, right? How does that like that change?

00:26:05.920 - 00:26:44.310

Because obviously it's two very different. Yeah, but he I was very excited about it and so forth. And I I saw myself originally when I left, I saw myself, you know, accomplishing what I wanted to do. And, you know, I got kind of got sidetracked. We got this new thing about being a profusion ist and so forth attracted me and e was trained and I was very good at it, and e a enjoyed it.

00:26:44.320 - 00:27:19.570

Yeah, and being a doctor didn't seem that done much important to me after that. Because I contributed to 10 to the house of from kids well operated machine and a 18. Our kid 18 hours old que onda up until 94 years old. So wow, amazing. You know, But I enjoyed.

00:27:19.570 - 00:27:34.620

It s I think it's important, though. You don't get up and want to enjoy the work that you have. What would you say? I think you said you said you have certain goals coming here. But what was that thing? That panel about that told you? I need to go.

00:27:34.620 - 00:27:55.840

I need to go to the United States. One of the things that my wife left. Yeah, she Oh, States. You know, she had some friends here. That kind of stuff s o e joined her. And it was good. Yeah. I mean, my my kids benefited from it.

00:27:55.850 - 00:28:20.660

You know, both of my kids are Kurdish graded, so Okay, Yeah. Um she said your daughter had her masters and textile design. And your son what? Uh, computer e someone little brother wants todo don't understand what he does, but just suppose a lot of time there.

00:28:21.240 - 00:28:43.480

Well, it's not strange. You know, t that was his interest. Because I don't know if you know anything about E No, that I didn't fight, Superintendent, not the guitar E. That was a little bit before I was born. E had all of that stuff E yeah.

00:28:43.480 - 00:29:07.620

I spent hours place to pensando hours. So some matter of fact, is the one that got me interested in in computers. I took a course in computers, uh, back in 95. Yeah. And every so often, when I run into a problem and called him up. Yeah.

00:29:08.120 - 00:29:38.770

And yeah. So he helps people out on the side, too. You know that with their computer problems. Okay. So if there is one memory from your time in the Panama Canal Zone, that's the head. Stay with your one thing. Do you have something like that? I think is the connection and the difference that I have some of these friends I went to kindergarten with.

00:29:39.440 - 00:30:05.860

Wow, e went to kindergarten with them. That's incredible. Okay, Not very many people can say that on some of the other guys that I went to high school with, You know, I can still call them, talk to him and kind of thing. Look out for each other.

00:30:06.940 - 00:30:28.760

Okay? One of the things that always gets very, I guess strong reactions is the whole of the United States giving the Panama Canal zone back to the Panamanians. Do you have any thoughts on that panel? Means are well equipped to run different market. Okay. I didn't say that over and over again.

00:30:29.440 - 00:30:58.560

Ammon, Latin Americans. Panamanians are highly educated, capable people. You know, It s a matter of, like, sometime some Latin Americans. When you say you're from Panama as a whole. Mhm. Well, you gotta watch him. No, but it Z, they're highly educated. The literacy rate in front of my eyes.

00:30:58.570 - 00:31:24.360

About 90%. How did I know that there's a Dominican Republic? It is not that happen, You know, that's what that you know. He's above 90%. So education is a is a is a premium in Panama, as a matter of fact, wanted right now. Well, it started with Madden.

00:31:24.360 - 00:31:53.850

Ellie, who was who was president. You know, they insisted that all high school students has toe have three years of English. The reason for that is they said with commerce, that kind of stuff, then they're going to need English because English is the the language off the internet.

00:31:54.540 - 00:32:10.870

Yeah. So that would you say that that all the year is the U. S. Was there for the department canals on That ended up being a good thing for the country of Panama. Yeah, well, it got them on your feet. basically okay. You know, Andi, um sorry.

00:32:13.140 - 00:32:46.900

My experience in my life. E can't say I don't know if I were born somewhere else. I don't know. Uh oh, it would be. I know my grandparent's the left their home because they they wanted to work. E don't know. That's true. For instance, in Barbados, Barbados was back then was overpopulated on the agricultural economy and so forth wasn't decorate and upward mobility.

00:32:46.900 - 00:33:09.620

Wasn't that great Because you had to work on a sugar cane plantation or something? Okay, so, you know, and they all went to Panama for work, and with the hopes of going back home, most of them did make it back. You don't go back home. Exactly.

00:33:09.630 - 00:33:39.910

The reason is because you can, you know, we both My brother nave. We love Panama and so forth. But we have God knuckles sent to certain things a certain way of, uh, doing things that when we go back upon, get frustrated by, you know, and you know, that's just the way it iss It's changing.

00:33:39.920 - 00:34:12.490

I'll tell you, that is changing. I was changing fast, and I think you know, I'm not so sure that most of the population is prepare for you In what ways we just say that is changing like well in every way. I mean, if you saw the skyline enough of Panama today to what it waas You know, You know, I don't think from modern buildings and it is an indication off the progress of the country.

00:34:12.500 - 00:34:39.980

But just that people are more aware, more aware of everything, more educated and everything, you know. So you go back and you can have a conversation with young people about the Internet saying, Are that kind of so? So you like that it Z it's OK, OK.

00:34:39.990 - 00:34:59.790

Do you think because also in these when we talk to people from the Panama Canal Zone they talk a lot about how your day started at a certain time. You had lunch at a certain time, didn't under certain time. So how was your father's schedule? My father sky do was all over the place because one of the things he he works shift.

00:34:59.800 - 00:35:32.770

Okay, My father was a bolson. What you call a bolson eyes, actually a supervisor, um, under trench. So but sometimes you would work like 3 to 11 or 11 to 7. I told you that my father was probably my father. Used to take me up in the morning when I was going to college on you will pick up my other two bodies.

00:35:34.040 - 00:35:53.940

He was a really good man, you know? But he thought education was the way out. Do you think he was? He was proud, though. The life that he lived and left that he gave to his family. My father's. My grandfather died when my father was eight years old.

00:35:53.940 - 00:36:20.220

I never knew my grandfather on my my grandfather on my paternal say, I don't know. So he did when my father was eight years old. Never union. So? So my father had to do all this stuff. Yeah. Told us they used to shine shoes. You know, Caddy do all that kind of stuff, And not only that, he was there.

00:36:20.220 - 00:37:06.000

This boy see, on case Yeah, my uncle who was still alive. Um uh, never knew his father. Yeah, my grandmother was pregnant when my foot My grandfather died, so Yeah, but yeah, he always looked up to my father, and, uh, yeah, so that's that's one of the reasons why he had you know the way you treated a certain way he talked to us about yeah, trying to do your past.

00:37:06.000 - 00:37:40.540

Then it's good studying. And that kind of Islam. Have you tried to pass that on to your Children there? Yeah, that's why, like I said, both of my kids are college grade is, you know. Oh, my daughters. You know, initially, she didn't go through to college after high school, you know, she had she had her our agenda and one of the things that she told me she went to have her kids before she was 30.

00:37:41.330 - 00:38:05.150

She did. And that's 30. She went back to school. Uh huh. She did very well. As a matter of Frank. In some ways, I thought that was the best for her because at 30 she had a name, and at one point she was living out of her car and I didn't know.

00:38:09.320 - 00:38:36.150

I didn't know that. I didn't have found out that after she got her batteries with her, two were killed. Very Children. Luckily, her mother took care of the kids, you know, But so so she really Okay, that's it. You know, And But she didn't want me to know, you know?

00:38:37.220 - 00:39:02.350

Hey said, Well, did she tell you why she didn't want you to know? Well, I was helping her otherwise. Yeah, that kind of also because then she had a nervous right, Her husband and separated. Okay. Yeah. So you know, she had four kids records. Also, you're a grandfather.

00:39:02.360 - 00:39:33.070

Yeah. My great great great grandfather Allow three great friends. Wow. Yeah, yeah. But the thing that I'm kind of proud off with my kids is, uh, that now, Eric teaching their kids to be aggressive and to be anything It doesn't work for all of them. Like my eldest granddaughter.

00:39:33.080 - 00:40:05.730

She she didn't want to go to college. She wanted to be a beautician. And she pursued that. Yeah, But right now she's enrolled in college because she said, Grandpa, you know, being in a good beautician and being on my feet is not very e mean. Sometimes it's hard to make that decision to go to college because it's sometimes you didn't have that because that's how I was.

00:40:05.740 - 00:40:30.150

My high school teachers encouraged me. My brother, he dropped out of high school and he's just now getting his g e d. So some it takes you sometimes those. Yeah, I understand. You know, e understand that. And I told I told her that I keep telling her Thio, Okay, life is going to slap you down and so forth.

00:40:31.110 - 00:41:09.030

The whole trick to it is getting up. Okay, um e kind of lost my train of thought for a bit. But do you think that, like and where you lived in Gamboa today and really much encourage you to go to college? Because, Okay, because e the the bodies that I have well studied at at school, then we go home on Sometimes we hang out with the guys and to a man we talked.

00:41:09.040 - 00:41:31.500

We talked together and said, Hey, we're not going to discuss anything about school or anything like that, you know? But to a man, they were questioning us. Yeah. One guy in particular was fascinated about psychology. You wound up being a detective in the New York City Department, and he worked in the Bronx.

00:41:31.510 - 00:41:54.220

That's where I lived, Okay? He worked in if you worked in the Bronx, okay? And I'm going to tell you in high school this guy who was, uh, crack up, he's always joking And the other. Yeah, but he wound up being a dick pic. So you have the lessons that you took from your father.

00:41:54.230 - 00:42:20.440

And obviously I imagine your mother to like that That experience something in the Panama Canal Zone. What? What do you think it gave their prepared you for the rest of your life. It gave me, uh, on outlook on life. And look, my mother was was also bright.

00:42:20.800 - 00:42:50.020

My father was the the youngest bolson ever worked. Then you put on my car. He became a both in that 27 or 28. Something like that, you know? And anyhow, so, um, but my mother, you know, she would read a lot, That's what I guess that's where I got seven by am.

00:42:50.800 - 00:43:13.610

I bet about reading. She would realize, and she would talk about it, you know? But she would talk about it in in several ways. Is not that she was preaching to us or anything like that. My mother calls me not to be a drinker. Are they mainly not to drink.

00:43:13.610 - 00:43:36.230

I never drink until I was 21. Okay, Yeah. My father would have something maybe around there or something like that. Once in a while, he would take a shot. But one day in particularly he left it. He had to go and do something, and he left it on the table.

00:43:37.200 - 00:44:02.010

I thought it was was basically it was in liquor. It was vinegar. Vinegar? Yeah. And it was in a shot glass. My mother was cooking. Okay. I saw this thing I said album that left this drink here on and so forth. And I said, Can I have it?

00:44:02.020 - 00:44:29.720

My mother saying it You want? You want that? I say, Yeah, I drink it. But, like, Holy all the folks, you pick up a grass and don't need one shot. That's what I did. E taught me a lesson. You know, she fell on the floor. Laughing E.

00:44:30.090 - 00:45:03.300

Uh huh. But I couldn't run into the bathroom from Fastenal, but it taught me a lesson. No, I almost got in a fight once when I was out in the interior of Panama with some of my friends at work was June Carnival okay? And we talking and so forth, and we were dancing at a, uh, dancehall some other local girls and so forth.

00:45:03.790 - 00:45:29.400

I was married, Danny, you know, But I just went out with them and it z not strange that you guys who would go drinking or whatever. Anyhow, I left my drink and which I knew I shouldn't have done when we went toe. Yeah, I was drinking a cold cut.

00:45:29.410 - 00:45:52.920

That's them. A cement of fame went and dance. And when I came back and think of my drink, he was spiked. I got mad because I they knew that I'd injury. Hmm. You know, and I got mad. If I If I I knew to this day they didn't tell me who did it.

00:45:53.290 - 00:46:14.660

I suspect I knew who did it. But if I had caught him that night, I would have killed him. Good. Uh, that's one thing I don't I don't I didn't You know, I'm a quiet guy, you know, But that I don't I don't tolerate, you know.

00:46:14.670 - 00:46:39.100

I tell them. Tell my kids that way and so forth. My son drinks and so forth. But he doesn't. He doesn't drink. Yeah, e have a beer. So I don't drink beer. Beer runs right through me. I don't like the taste of fear. E don't drink beer.

00:46:39.110 - 00:46:59.270

There's one beer that I I drink, but it it has a stout. Okay, you know, riel stuff. Yeah, but that's the only thing I drink. The only time I had beer and I liked it was when I went to Cuba in March. Yeah, it was really good you went to Cuba in March?

00:46:59.280 - 00:47:21.600

Yes. Tell me about, um one of my e way could relate My professor, She teaches one of my pace Professor. She does Cuban and Caribbean history s. So she took nine of us to keep a for spring break. And we went, you know, way went on research visas.

00:47:21.680 - 00:47:45.220

So the way we did it, it was a class on slavery and the legacy of slavery in Cuba, Flint to Obama, to Cienfuegos, into Danita on e. Really? Because it is really different thio especially her, because she's still knowledgeable about everything and to go into the task that people don't really go on and see the different culture and aspect.

00:47:45.220 - 00:48:01.990

So for me, it was I loved it. I loved and I compared it a lot to Santo Domingo highest What? Za similar was different. And I like it because one most places that you can still kind of feel that people are really proud of, like the African.

00:48:01.990 - 00:48:19.770

I get to the culture and you see that when I watch videos of people dancing in Panama because I'm obsessed with dancing on and you see like the culture, it's very it's very much still there on. And I think it's good that you have. You have that pride because in Dominican Republic it's really interesting because you don't have to tell me.

00:48:19.770 - 00:48:41.220

I know. Okay, alright, e a long time and it's fun as I went back last summer and I hadn't been there since I was nine or eight. So I'm one of the lightest people in my family. Everybody. Yeah, I ended up being the oddball. Yeah, and I go, It's just like, Oh, my gosh, you guys are crazy s o.

00:48:41.220 - 00:49:12.490

It's But the culture is also that the music, if we don't think, is also very much president of immigrant public. It's just Thank you. Yeah, but yeah, you understand? Wouldn't admit it. They won't admit it. Yeah, I know something in Panama. Okay, Typical. That's in Panama is African based, you know, but ah lot of fun me and would have made it the one that made it slave the front of my had slave from the 16th century.

00:49:12.500 - 00:49:51.520

Yes. Okay, so it, um when they the Jamaicans and Barbados with Panama to thio build economic and so forth It wasn't the first time that black people wasn't found Mhm. Okay, that's because I read this. This article that was really interesting was talking about about blackness in Dominican Republic and saying that Dominican Republic is the cradle of Africa's in the in the Americas because it's the first, the first place that come in the first place, that slaves were brought in the Americas.

00:49:51.520 - 00:50:14.740

And, you know, you had the it wasn't ever a big plantation society. But that stuff, you know what people are. Look the way that they dio and I I totally forgot my train of thought normal, but its's just Yeah, because you had. And it's funny, because from what I read, people are very proud of the African heritage in Dominican Republic B s.

00:50:14.740 - 00:50:36.910

So she goes, you know, Haiti comes and abolishes slavery, and the connection is the white elite that when they come into power stories and especially the dictatorship. But you also have a lot of communities of Jamaicans and burritos that come to the Dominican Republic. And then you don't know if you heard all the horrible things have been going on there with the Haitians, so, well, Dominicans that are of Haitian descent.

00:50:36.920 - 00:50:58.670

So it's just ridiculous. So and arm Oh, it's just Well, you said, you know, I know. I know. I have a couple of times, but it's interesting You said that about Panama, though, because I didn't know that, like, certain people would deny. Like the African based of the dancers.

00:50:58.680 - 00:51:27.240

Yeah. Oh, yeah, you know, But what it is is the is the influence I need to the American influence Thio, you know, with movies and that kind of stuff, you know? But right now, in Panama, its's they're recognizing it. And there's a push. Thio do that because I mean, they're facing it, They're facing it, you know?

00:51:27.250 - 00:51:53.480

Yeah. How did this happen on how did that happen? You know, how did how did the forest got cleared for them to bring in cows and develop agriculture and that kind of hold How did all of that happened? You know the natives that they didn't want to work for for anybody.

00:51:53.860 - 00:52:18.060

And they didn't have to. If they lived in the mountains, certainly could eat. And, well, I ain't going to work for this guy, you know? So you think is a society, they're coming to that realization? Yeah. Okay, Panama, 40% off the population and trace your ancestry back to Africans.

00:52:18.550 - 00:52:47.220

40%. 10% is European, 10%. Just 10% is the European. Okay? The rest is indigenous Indians. Yeah, And in Dominican Republic, it's 85 to 95%. Or its African descent. Like the final five or six. It is of European descent. Okay. And we don't even have my father said no.

00:52:47.220 - 00:53:05.410

Indigenous. Just because they were the first place to be colonized. All the indigenous people were dead by 15, 10, 15, 70. It's the same, I think, in Puerto Rico, in in Cuba. But I'm not sure, but but So how was that? Was that, like that denial of the African history?

00:53:05.410 - 00:53:35.390

Was that true? Like when you were living there? Okay. Yeah, As a matter of fact, among my grandparent's generation, they were They were they created schools to teach their kids English. That's Spanish horror. Okay, because one of the things the the case, we're also discriminated against.

00:53:37.050 - 00:54:05.640

That's hard. You know, there's a term for for for black kids in Panama back then. Jumbos. Really? Yes, but it's stupid. You know what Trumble means? Yeah, Columbus used Trumbo's as if the thing. My friends, When he came and saw Indians and so forth, he referred to the most rumbles.

00:54:05.650 - 00:54:38.480

But it's because the Indians accepted him in that kind of stuff, and that's what they would call the kids. But the history of it, though Columbus landed in Jamaica back then and the Latinos, uh, work inhabited the island s O that he referred to them. A strong glass on being your from Jamaica and Jumbo come in.

00:54:38.480 - 00:54:58.810

But it was a directly theory turn do near time. Ze s. So those are the things that experience is your grandparent's? Yeah, Yeah, that's incorrect. Did your parents talk to you a lot about what it was like when they grew up on, like, the earlier times?

00:54:58.820 - 00:55:28.150

Not not. Not a lot way. Learn about these from other people. Way mhm. Luckily, they were still, um, people in my parents age that was around and they would tell the stories, you know? So you know they did. They? My parents didn't in one respect. Didn't want, just tried to shield us.

00:55:28.260 - 00:55:57.990

Okay? Okay. They did a good job, guys. You and none of us believe that were less than anybody. Your father and my father E. Yeah, none of us on Ben. Did your parents ever talk about them wanting to go back to the Jamaica? Barbados? No. Well, like I had told you, I didn't know my grandfather.

00:55:58.000 - 00:56:34.150

My father said I didn't have heard my grandmother talking about My grandfather wanted Thio go back because my grandfather, I think what is the only point? And it is from that. I don't know how they allowed him to leave. Okay, back there to Jamaica had a law that mhm they weren't allowing their Their men are the young men to leave the country to goto work in Panama.

00:56:34.160 - 00:56:59.760

What did Jamaicans did was leave Jamaica Winter, Barbados on then from Barbados Thio panel. Okay, so it wasn't a direct communication and it was, uh so I have one final question. So considering your childhood in Panama, on, then living in New York and I here in Florida, I think.

00:56:59.770 - 00:57:24.790

Are you proud of the life that you have lived on? What you have accomplished? Yeah, E am proud. And I will tell you have unfortunate, you know, to live at this time and in this area, right? So why didn't they in that? I'm lucky to see so many changes.

00:57:24.800 - 00:57:55.300

You know, here in the United States and even in in Paramount on and there there will be more changes. And I'm coming up with optimistic. The only thing I would say to any young person is you got to be prepared because say, for instance, in the days in these days with Barack Obama and this on A You can't use any more excuses because Barack Obama did.

00:57:55.310 - 00:58:25.450

He did it and he pushed ahead and so forth. And I always tell Thio, blacks and young people in general I said, Look, I have traveled to Africa. I have visited five countries in Africa. I met Africans. There's no seven languages fluently, I said. So what's wrong with our brains?

00:58:29.020 - 00:58:54.320

What's wrong with our brains? You know, you meet some Europeans that knows through you languages. Mhm fluently. What's wrong with our brains? There's nothing wrong with our brains. And we could learn anything if we put our minds to it, You know, And that I treat that.

00:58:54.330 - 00:59:17.330

I say that to my grass and so forth. Uh huh. That's really good. I don't have any more questions. Are there any final thoughts or anything that you would want to say? I, I think, is a good thing that you doing these interviews because we have to have Horace side of the story, okay?

00:59:17.720 - 00:59:44.150

And, yeah, it's our responsibility. And the other thing that even my brother and I was talking last night when we were in the other room that if we don't do it, we will. You know, you can't depend on somebody else to do it for you on Not only that, you know there would be something missing if we didn't do it.

00:59:45.220 - 01:00:13.370

And along those lines, I would say this. My brother and I and a couple of other guys are interviewing older folks. Really? Yeah, it's amazing. So what we want to do is set up a website. People could go on, you know? No one know what it was like to be in the town side that way.

01:00:13.380 - 01:00:40.500

How eso We have done a couple of them way. I don't want to house him here. You wanna welcome Thio are kind of Well, uh, that's gonna have to be worked out, but that that's an idea. And that's an idea. I thought about, uh when, uh when I heard about their They said when I heard Emilio, Emilio is the one who broach the subject.

01:00:40.500 - 01:01:06.250

Thio even so forth. And maybe he's a dedicated guy who wants to tell his story and so forth e I applaud him for that. That's why we volunteer. I mean, I drove here e don't don't live that well. Listen, two hours I was here, so Well, we really appreciate that you came here.

01:01:06.260 - 01:01:26.830

Okay? I'm really happy that you told your story that you shared it with us. Okay, so I'm glad Todo basically we would try thio door, please dio Because I work here. I'm just here so we can arrange that and they get in contact with me. We could make it happen.

01:01:27.210 - 01:01:51.240

Yes. I'll be more than happy to. Yeah, well, you keep up the good work. Uh, study hard. Yes. Best of plan A Sfar as you can because you would need it. I'm one. Did I believe that women and men should Of course, far as they can.

01:01:52.010 - 01:01:58.510

Thank you. Thank you, thank God. Well, thats concludes this interview, okay?