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Good afternoon. My name is bringing me here. It is july 3rd, 2000 and 15. We are We are with Mr John Hawthorne, Um, here at the Panama Canal Society with the Samuel Procter Oral History program at the University of Florida. Um, Mr Hawthorne, can you start off first by telling us where you were born, what year you were born?

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On your your early childhood history. I was born in 1942 August 13th and Santo Tomas Hospital in Panama City, Panama, which makes me a Panamanian citizen. And my early childhood was spent and what is known is Canal Zone Panama, the area around the Panama Canal and I grew up in the small town of, uh Katou.

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Noon, which was located next to the gateau, unlocks the very first set of locks on the Atlantic side where my father worked. And this was Ah, very small town of maybe 30 houses, 35 houses at the most, and it was a very close knit community. Um, there was only one church called the Union Church which would combined all religions and our parents all went to the same church.

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And we all went thio Sunday school there and way all went to a small school. Each grade was consisted of only one room. And we, uh, um lived together as Children of and grew up in a very close knit community, knowing each other very well. And And when we got older, once we graduated from grade school, we were plus put on a bus and sent down to Crystal Ball the Crystal Ball High School where we went Thio junior high, great seven and eight and then entered high school for on a great 9, 10, 11, 12.

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However, my mother was a school teacher and she was transferred from the Atlantic side, which is where the town of Mattoon was to the Pacific side of like the canal, Uh, Teoh a different school to teach in a school in Pacific Side. And so therefore, I began my 10th grade education.

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Excuse me, My 11th grade education, my 12th grade education in Balboa High School. And these two high schools were the only two high schools there. And so their high school rivalry was what fueled all the football games and everything like that. However, I walked defense because I was what we call a dual citizen off to different high schools.

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And here we sit now at Panama Canal Re Union on. This is my 55th year since graduation, And I'm here attending the high school dinner of Crystal Ball High School. And, um, afterwards, I will meet with all my classmates from Balboa High School. And so I would say that I have, ah, very complete knowledge of our generation because I attended both schools and met everybody.

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That was my age and age's in the school. School grades around me. Okay, Um, are you were you second generation? Actually, I would have been called a second generation because my parents migrated to, um, Panama. My father was, uh a semen on the steamship line sailed around the world three times, Like Panama is the best place that hey had ever stopped.

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And so he got off the boat there. My mother was a waitress on a cruise ship line that Cruz from United States all South America and Latin America and everything. And somehow her. My dad met in Panama in 1938 and we're married, and, uh, my father ended up getting a job with the Panama Panama Canal Company.

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Um uh, driving the locomotives that pull the ships through the canal. Got my mother ended up getting a job as a school teacher. So both my parents were employed by the Panama Canal. Okay, Um, how often did you get to see or how much? Um, I guess hands on experience.

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Did you get working with your father? Were you ever able to work with your father, or did you have aspirations off getting a job in the canal once You're an adult? Yes. Um, when when we when we became seniors in our last year of high school, all of us young men that went to school there were able to take a test which was given by the U.

00:06:12.790 - 00:06:44.050

S. Government to see, um, if we were qualified for a government job, and so are on, uh, graduation night. We were attended the commencement exercise, and then all of the boys had to go home and go to bed and get up early the next morning to take this government test.

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And the test was in two parts, which the graduation night was Friday night and Saturday morning were up eight oclock and back in school toe. Take this government tests to get a job. And Sunday we had to return for more testing. And so we were never able to celebrate graduation with our classmates because of this necessity of being fully awake for testing the next day, and I achieved a significantly high enough score that I was awarded a job was a machinist apprentice working in a dry docks.

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Uh, and the gateau unlocks that my father worked on. What was the nature of these questions? How What did they test you on? Well, it was it was Ah, uh, mechanical ability, sort of test, which was about mathematics. It was about physics, you know? Um hmm, it Zraly hard to remember.

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But way went to a U. S government school and were educated unknown only at the time for this test because this was one of the main ways that they recruited people to work there. They also hired from different shipyards in the United States. Uh, people who had journeymen qualified jobs if they needed some, uh, some people, but the part about my particular generation, my particular school year of graduation 1960.

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And those of us that qualified for American job was the fact that we were the ones that were running to Panama Canal when it was turned over to the Panamanian government. And so all the people that I graduated webs ended up being in the top positions of the enemy of the canal at the time that it was turned over.

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And so this was a really unique A situation that we were, in a way didn't realize at the time that we were actually being trained to take over running this whole place. Yeah, well, before we get into the politics of the canal, I want to go back on and talk about your education at these schools.

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Was there any difference between the education system on the Pacific side or the Atlantic side? No. Both of these were government run schools and and curriculum was a government sponsored curriculum, and it was a standard more or less followed the standard high school curriculum that was in the United States.

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Um and, uh, going to both schools. The schools were equally well because the teachers that taught these classes thes we're very lucrative jobs for people they involved in the pay was really good. Most people aren't aware that the people working in the Panama Canal received a 25% pay rage over the wages of the people who worked in the United States.

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Because we were working in a foreign country and also up until somewhere close to the 1960 there was no income tax paid by the people working on the canal because they were also working in a foreign country. And so all the jobs were very lucrative jobs, and we're very, uh, they were sought after by the people.

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Thio be involved in this. And there was also another thing that that really happened. Are there a Sfar, Aziz? The work conditions and all went, um, Aziz, you weren't working for anybody or any company. Your job was to make sure that the ships were ableto trance transmit the canal, and that this was a very beneficial to the rest of the world population we supplied to food and goods and all the energy resource energy resource is for the rest of the world moving through this canal.

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And so Panama occupied a really unique position in the fact that they weren't at war with anybody. They were a peace with all countries in the world because they benefited everybody. And so Panama never had a standing army. Never had any kind of a conflict going on with anybody else.

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And everybody who worked there felt like that they were doing something that was creating good above and beyond common community needs. Uh huh. Um, was there any difference in housing, an institution or life experience growing on growing up in the Pacific side, opposed to the Atlantic side?

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Um, the only difference was the fact that the Atlantic side, with a much smaller operation Atlantic side only had one set of locks and in the Pacific side had two sets of locks on the Pacific side. Also had the government center of that ran the whole operation.

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So you could say that one third of the population lived on Atlantic side and over two thirds of the population lived on the Pacific start. And the amazing thing about your question about the housing Waas there again, this was a ah, very unique experience. Um, your housing allotment was decided by your seniority of how long you worked.

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So the longer you work, the higher up the list that you could go. And whenever a house became available, it didn't matter how much money you made or what job you made. The only thing that mattered is how long you've been working. Your seniority was the only criteria that determine where you lived.

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And so any house that became available you could apply toe live at. And if nobody I had more seniority than you had applied, then you got it. And my father, uh, by the time that you know, I was getting into junior high school, lived in Cem very nice houses because there wasn't that many people in the town.

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And there wasn't that much seniority and eso We were able thio, move thio up and up the store and get a better house every time that one became available. Interesting. Um, so you also mentioned that there was a large sense off of community. Um, So my question to you is what were the aspect of your life in Panama that contributed to that sense of community?

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Well, there were There was quite a few things. Um, for, you know, for number one waas is that in Panama there was no stores there was no competition for anything. Everybody bought their food, had a commissary, which was a government run store. All the food good bills were brought.

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Um, everybody ate at what was known in the day as a clubhouse, which was a cafeteria style restaurant with a, uh where you just walk through the food line and were able Thio put the food on your trade 24 hours a day because the canal operated 24 hours a day, and so they had to feed everybody that worked there.

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And so any time you were hungry, just went to the clubhouse and picked up your tray and went through and were able to buy a meal at a very affordable price. And as far as the entertainment went, each town had its own movie theater, and the latest movies from the United States were brought down and circulated through the towns and the price of a movie and the beginning was 10 cents.

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And at the height of when I left, the price of the movie was 25 cents. And so, um, up until, um, the late fifties, there was no television, and so our entertainment was every night we went to the movies, and so every night you met all your friends at the movie theater and everybody sat in the same seat every night.

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And when the movies were over, you could go out to the clubhouse and sit down and have a soda or something to eat or whatever. And the parents appreciated this because they didn't need to watch their Children. The Children all watched each other. It was more like the tribal situation where the older kids watch the younger kids and everybody was in a totally controlled environment.

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Unites the Panama Canal was a very amazing socialist experiment that happened where where society was created to benefit the people that lived there. So their production on the job was maximized and they didn't have to struggle to do any of the things that would keep them from being able to perform the job.

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That's interesting. It's very interesting, and it's one of those things that ended the whole thing because the United States their their whole thing was Maura about competition and Padma. There was no competition, your job with about putting the ships through the canal and you didn't have to compete with any of your friends for a job or or any of that.

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And then your leisure time was for your recreation on. So our leisure time was, of course, spent at the beach and fishing or or camping or going to the interior and doing, you know, whatever you wanted to do in your leisure time, it was, and quite an amazing lifestyle when you look back on it, Um, So you said that at the time you were growing up, there was, ah, Union Church and they had a sort of combination of different faiths.

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Can you elaborate a little bit about your experience at that church and how that was like, Well, my experience at that church is when we were young, all on Sunday, all the kids were taken by their parents to Sunday school. Andi Sunday school. We were taught, uh, Bible stories on There was no slant to the faith for any particular theology or whatever.

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It was all just straight, more or less out of the Bible kind of training. And the Children were downstairs in the church going to Sunday school. Other parents were upstairs in the church with the preacher doing uh, regular church ceremonies. And so everybody was giving Given sort of, ah, background faith on bond As you grow older, it was up to you whether you wanna do continue or not.

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Eso uh It was there for you if you wanted it on beginning. You know, everybody used it as a focal point. Thio congregate and socialize. Um so do you speak Spanish? I speak some Spanish. I I took Spanish every single year in school on unfortunately, the Spanish program theme The curriculum wasn't really designed correctly because we were taught Castilian Spanish Castilian Spanish is spoken Onley in Spain amongst the higher up people in Spain.

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When I visited Spain and saw the government officials talking on TV, I could understand them perfectly. However, traveling in Latin America because of all the different slang in a different dialogue. I struggled with my Spanish and I took Spanish every single year in school all the way through college.

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And unfortunately we were taught the wrong language. Mhm. That's interesting as well. Um, when it comes toe identity, nationality and citizenship, where do you see yourself? And I just want to make a dent into the last statement about the Spanish because are really Spanish was learned from our maids are helpers, people we worked with and our association with the Panamanian people when we went into Panama itself and those of us who were lucky enough to have a closer association with the Panamanian people to somebody that would speak Spanish to us.

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Mawr often learn more Spanish than others on, um, because that I heard Spanish spoken, Ah lot in my childhood and most of my young adult life. I actually have a memory of Spanish that if I'm in a Spanish speaking situation, that memory slowly awakens to the point where I understand Mawr mawr.

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Spanish language is a very unique thing. Most people don't realize that a child brought up can be. It can learn to speak four different languages if they're brought up with four different people speaking languages around them at a very early age and actually trying to teach somebody a language when they're in school.

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It's a little bit past the learning age. Most people don't understand that Children learn around the age of three languages very well, and the most important thing that a child learns is how to walk and talk, and that development starts right after two years old. And that is when the brain is the most absorbing and eso expose the child of multiple language at that time makes a multi lingual when they grow up.

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Yeah, and so that is what I found that it is very amazing that I am in the situation. We're on Lee. Spanish was spoken. Eventually I will. My mind will readjust, and on the way to learn a foreign language is not to learn the word in English and didn't learn it in Spanish.

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The way to learn the foreign language is to pick up the item and learn the word in Spanish by looking at it, not learning an English word of what the item is but learning just what the Spanish word ISS and that way your mind imprints instead of trying toe, translate it back in your mind from one language to the other.

00:24:59.710 - 00:25:30.770

It translates the image of me and and so language in school. There's a little bit behind the way that they teach it. They could be taught easier, and so you'll have to read me your next question. All it's fine we can elaborate on language. So So you said that your your main teachers were the people around you were the actual Panamanians, right?

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Right. Are in our everyday life there listening to the language that our everyday life and looking at the actual things that they were talking about, or the languages that imprinted stuff that we learned in school was more or less a confusing list of conjugating verbs and trying toe learn names of things by reading the English word and the Spanish word, and that causes ah, jump in your mind when you hear the Spanish word trying to translate in English word before you understand it.

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Um, how often were you able to leave the ozone on going to Panama and have experiences there? Did you have Panamanian friends that were on America? Um, we had some Panamanian friends assed faras How often we were able to leave his own. Leaving his own was a matter of crossing the street.

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Uh, the there were no porters, and there was one side of the street. Was the canals on one side of the street with Panama on. And, uh, Panamanians, uh, sometimes came in, you know, in the in the zone, The ones that came toe work in his own or worked in the houses that's maids or took care of the yards.

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Um, and as Children, we walked in Panama all the time. As a 10 year old boy, I walk completely through the town by myself to go to the Saturday afternoon matinee, and I walk the streets of Colon Panama, and the people would laugh and smile and say hi.

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And it was a, uh, amazing journey. You were you felt very free and very secure. And, uh, it was a time that everybody loved everybody on, uh, as we grow older. We ventured in in the Panama. Was was our recreation way went toe restaurants and bars, nightclubs and movies and sporting events.

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And we were mostly totally accepted by the Panamanian people. Um, on. And it was like I said, it was an amazing free time. There was there was a slight prejudices here and there, but as Children, they weren't really directed towards us. Um, speaking of prejudice, what kindof prejudice did you see living in Panama?

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Well, the only the major kind of prejudice was was the income difference the Panamanians had had a very hard time of achieving a job that paid a significant wage. Uhh of the what we would call the local Panamanian through the common Panamanians. However, there was the upper class Panamanians that were very rich and their Children went to school with us.

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And we became close friends with them and still are close friends with them today. Uh huh. Thea upper class cross the Panamanians way. Trying to become friends with some of the for lack of a better word. Lower class doesn't mean they were lord society, but they were the lower class of Panama.

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And, uh, you know, simply because the gap between the entitlement of off things that were available through money or whatever there was really almost too hard to form any kind of a friendship that was meaningful. Uh, there was maybe too much envy and too much out of balance, uh, of of means or or attainment or whatever.

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OK, eso Then you said that leaving high school, you took a government tests on that you were able to get a government job. But then you also said that your generation on your time working for the canal was at that turning point in history where the treaty was signed and those jobs were turned over to Panamanians.

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Um, can you express your sentiments at the time? And also you're experienced. Another thing that was uniquely that happened Thio my group. But my time was when we got these government jobs. It was also the first time that the Panamanians were brought in to those same government jobs.

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And so well, maybe, maybe maybe 15 of us Americans, uh, or offered a government job. They also brought in maybe five or six Panamanians. That's the same time and where they were trained alongside of us. These were the Panamanians that were being trained to take over the canal, and we were being trained to be the last one to run it, and they were being trained to be the first one to take over.

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And my relationship with them was, was, was good, you know, like I said, the yeah, the prejudices didn't really happen at a level where there was communication and association. Way worked with Panamanians on all levels and even, you know, as a government worker, each of us that was a government worker was assigned a Panamanian helper.

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And so, um, I worked in a machine shop and the dry dock and worked on ships on All on, um, my Panamanian helper carried my tool box out to the job, and then I performed the repairs or whatever was necessary. And my Panamanian help her assisted me anytime that I needed help and then carried my tools back and clean them up and put him away.

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And also, at the same time, I employed that same Panamanian helper to come to my house on the weekends on his day off the where you could wash and polish my car or, uh, clean up around the yard is necessary, which wasn't very, you know, really, uh, involving a lot of work because there was already a permanent yard crew that took care of all the neighborhoods.

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Uh, the mower guys and and all swept through every week, swept through all the neighborhoods and workers that took care of all these things so that everybody that worked for the canal, their time could be spent on their job, you know? Then, uh, but you know, the small things we had and we also employed the relatives of our helpers, usually their wives or sisters or aunts or cousins or whatever became the page and washed our clothes or could become the cooks and cook cook the fruit force.

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Uh, when I was my mom because my mom was a school teacher on when I was in junior high school, I lived two blocks from the school, and so my maid came and made lunch for me at home. So I would walk home a touch time and ate the lunch.

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My maid had prepared for me and didn't go back to school. Andi. Eventually I stopped doing that because the camaraderie of the kids in school during lunch was more fun than walking home and eating your lunch by yourself that the maid had. It wasn't about the food.

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It was about the camaraderie with your friends. And so you know, there was a lot of benefits there that a lot of cooperation between us so that everything functioned and the money was spread around a bit on DNA made the people comfortable. This was one of the things that when the canal was turned over to Panamanians, all ended and caused a lot of grief for the people that were involved in these these jobs and lost this income that they depending on, um, what was your immediate reaction?

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When, when you when you took on the position, did you know that in six years it was going to be turned over? No, I didn't. And when I took on the position, remember, I was employed in 1961 on the turnover didn't come to the 1999. And at the time I on Lee worked as a government job for one year.

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Um, I e became concerned about my ability for advancement in that job very rapidly and decided Thio quit and go to college in the United States. And at this at this time, while they were preparing to bring the Panamanians in for transitions to the canal, nobody knew that it was gonna happen for sure.

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Okay. Okay, um, so after working there for a year, you came to the United States to go to college where? Well, I went to the University of Tennessee for my freshman year, and it was a real shock being in the winter and not having ever been in the winter and not having any winter clothes.

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And, uh, the other riel shock Waas is that everything that I was taught on my freshman year in school had already gone over and my government job. And so it was a waste of time on. So then I decided that I had to get to a warm place, so I went to the University of Miami in Florida.

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There again, when I went to the University of Florida, I found out the same thing that I still was more advanced for my government job than they were teaching in college. Because the rial thing about a job is not what you learn in school, it's about on the job training and the think of a college education and sort of a myth.

00:38:08.230 - 00:38:48.990

And like I explained before now it's turned into a very viable form of debt slavery off, causing everybody to, uh, pay vast sums of money to achieve a paltry education about something that really can or cannot pertain to the job that they're doing. Okay, eso Once you move to the United States and now in your adult life, what is it about the Panamanian experience or the experience of living in the zone on seeing that culture.

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What is it that you still hold you you held onto in college toe. And to this day, well, you would have to say that compared to life in the States, the life in the canal zone was closer to paradise than than life in the States. Life in the States that a very crowded jumble of competition of people for space food, uh, recreation on and abilities to do things.

00:39:29.720 - 00:40:03.140

Uh, you have a multi layer of people of all different sources, all colliding together, uh, trying to bump their way through to get what their desires are and or Panama was much more orderly than that in the sense that we had grown up going how to achieve our desires and being able to achieve them with our friends and other people like mine.

00:40:03.150 - 00:41:08.450

Whereas in the United States finding people like mine and very difficult. Uh huh. Um, and that leads me to my previous question. Um, a Sfar is your identity and your nationality. Uh, what do you classify yourself as? E classify myself as a Latin America? Okay, I like I said, my heart remains in Panama because through all my experiences with Americans, I find that Theo Latin American experience has made me a better person as far as being more open hearted, being Mawr, accepting of other people, um, and being less competitive about what I need And mawr, um cooperative and what the group needs and what humanity needs.

00:41:10.010 - 00:41:54.360

Um, okay. Andi, earlier you stated that what happened in the zone was sort of almost a socialist experience our experiment. Sorry. Um, my question to you is how successful do you think that experience Waas? Well, I think that that experience was a very successful on on I think, uh, it became so successful that the powers that be that we're interested in creating money were threatened by this experience.

00:41:54.810 - 00:42:22.830

Because if this experience has spread throughout the United States, they would have lost control. Onda competitive edge of being able Thio manipulate the money out of everybody for everything that that occurred. Um, jobs would have been on a less competitive level, and so prices would not have been eso high.

00:42:22.840 - 00:43:13.620

Uh um And they United States has taken consumerism thio, top level and, uh, the money involved in it. Aziz eagerly sought after by people and power. And so the higher the level of consumerism, the more money that these people make. And unfortunately, it turned out to be that one of the highest level of consumerism in the military the military makes a the military industrial complex makes a product.

00:43:14.000 - 00:43:44.430

It has a shelf life of zero. Once it blows up, you need a new one. And so the economy, the United States is based on the fact that the more things that they blow up, the more money they make. I know this is totally wrong. Um, okay, Yeah.

00:43:45.000 - 00:44:15.440

Eight. Do you consider yourself American at all Do assed faras values identity? How do you relate toe another American now? Um, no, I don't consider myself in America involved because I consider myself a free spirit on a free spirit. My values and their values were completely it Opposites, their values, they're all about themselves.

00:44:15.440 - 00:44:47.890

And and the more money that they can make for themselves and the more things that they could gather for themselves and the higher position that they had to live in, they have a feeling that this is satisfying. That's not what satisfies me. What satisfies me being a complete person and being able thio relate Thio everybody else and being able to be a part of the whole social structure on and being able to be a part of something that advances the life of everybody on the planet.

00:44:47.900 - 00:45:20.060

Not just a particular group. Okay, um, can you recollect where you were or how you found out about the treaty and how you felt at that moment? Um, all right. I don't recollect about where I was when I found out about the treaty on and what I found when at that moment when that happened, O r.

00:45:20.070 - 00:45:46.790

When I found out about it, the way that I felt about the treaty was the fact that, um, you know, this there was there was a lot of manipulations that went on back then for this to happen. And for one example, one example. One of the things was that this canal would have never happened without the U.

00:45:46.790 - 00:46:33.960

S. Government coming in and paying the have it done and bringing in their organizational power there. There might so to say at the time of doing it, which, uh oh was at at an age of expansionism. And in three us, um, the way that the canal, the way that Panama was created in a territory that canal was built on was created happened at the age of expansionism that began in 18 93 in Hawaii when the U.

00:46:33.960 - 00:47:03.210

S. Government, um, back the takeover of the Hawaiian government by a group of American missionaries that lived there. On this was the same gun boat diplomacy where they brought in American battleship in the Bay of Honolulu and threaten the Hawaiian government. Thio turn over the powers of Hawaii.

00:47:03.210 - 00:47:29.300

The Americans that were there, uh, similar to this later on, in 18 97 the same thing happened in Cuba. Where again, the gun boat diplomacy, using a false flag operation of a blown up American ship to create an incident in Cuba where they fostered another war which took over, uh, Spain.

00:47:29.310 - 00:47:57.810

And how did that situation? They received the rights to the Caribbean and they also received the rights to the Philippines. And then the same operation was later carried on in Panama. In 1903 they brought in another gunboat into the harbor. And this time, instead of allowing a bunch of Americans that take over foreign country.

00:47:58.280 - 00:48:35.280

They It took a bunch of people that call themselves Panamanians, which was a country that didn't exist time and allowed them to be the ones that were the powers that be that they put into office and took over Panama from Colombia simply because Colombia wasn't willing to delegate authority to build a canal for the right sum of money and without all these things happen in the Panama Canal wouldn't have happened.

00:48:35.670 - 00:48:51.930

And even though they weren't right, this is the way that it happened. And so then we've had to deal to re progressions of this. We're all these years. And finally, when the treaty came about that this was gonna be settled, um, it was the right thing to do.

00:48:51.930 - 00:49:34.100

Is Farrah settling? However, it was the wrong thing to do by the way they went about it. And unfortunately, there was a lot of circumstances behind us that most people aren't aware of. Most people aren't aware of the fact that the canal was built at the time when they realized when they got into this war with Spain and took over the Philippines, they Philippine people revolted against the Americans.

00:49:34.630 - 00:49:58.060

They needed to move the Navy into the Pacific Ocean from the Atlantic. And the only way to do this with the sail all the way around South America Thio, get the ships into the Pacific Ocean. So the ideal thing would be to create a canal across Panama the speed transportation of the ships through.

00:49:58.670 - 00:50:28.680

And so this was pushed through, pushed through Congress, and it happened in order. Thio, Thio benefit the Navy, And what most people don't really understand is that, you know, in World War Two, the whole time that we lived in and the canals on the World War Two we saw all the ships that fought in World War Two in the Pacific transmit the canal.

00:50:29.260 - 00:50:50.770

We saw all the ships come back, battle damage from there, and we stood on the lock walls through newspapers on these ships that they went through and they threw their sailor hatch to us. Thanks for giving them the news of what was happening in the United States at the time.

00:50:51.420 - 00:51:16.660

It was a very was a very amazing thing. And also when the us as Missouri, the battleship that the treaty for Japan was signed upon, transmitted the canal way were all allowed to go on board. And we all received a copy of this treaty and saw the place where assigned and everything.

00:51:18.030 - 00:51:41.390

And so that was like a, you know, reinforcement of the fact that the canal was built for the Navy. However, at the end of World War, two or two was ended by the dropping of the atomic bomb at the dropping of the atomic bomb. Things changed.

00:51:41.760 - 00:52:16.530

We no longer needed a Navy to protect the United States. The United States would be protected by airplanes carrying atomic bombs. And so the power of the Navy lost its power in Congress in the power of the Air Force. Gained this power in Congress on doll with a no more Navy ships were being produced was all airplanes are being produced, and so they need for the canal became less and less on.

00:52:16.530 - 00:52:50.820

Then it is. And then, as we got into a more modern warfare, it became a war missiles. And so the air Force lost power also in Congress and in reality, when the treaty came about the reason why the treaty eight was passed in Congress. Waas. It's the amount of congressmen that were involved with the Navy was smaller than the amount of Congressman that was involved with the Air Force.

00:52:51.750 - 00:53:25.570

These were the war going on in Congress between powers that be and armament production industry in the United States. And so they wrote off the Panama Canal that's no longer needed and therefore gave it back to Panama. Everybody thought that that was something that happened because of on feelings and United States where everybody felt like, Oh, yes, we're gonna give them back to the canal.

00:53:25.950 - 00:53:48.030

It was a really fought thing that went on, but the fact waas the fact that the powers that be in Congress tomorrow and then decided that the canal will no longer need it and it was a burden to them. However, they didn't realize the amount of money that that canal put into the coffers of the United States.

00:53:48.610 - 00:54:23.180

And so immediately when when that canal turned over, the United States lost a huge amount of income which the people of the United States ended up having to make up for through income tax. And as we see that situation today way say that we're being taxed Thio death for money for the industrial military complex along with the petroleum industry and the medical industry.

00:54:24.040 - 00:54:59.470

Uh huh. So, all in all our your sentiments about the exchange positive, neutral or negative? Um, well, I'm very negative about these things that require vast amounts of money to enrich people that are on the outer edges of it. Oh, and the poverty that has placed the American people in and the loss of statue of the American people around the world because of their military.

00:55:01.540 - 00:55:32.460

Okay, um, at this point, I have any I don't have any more questions. Um, but I would like to ask you Is there anything that we did not talk about today that you would like to have recorded? Well, yes, because the interview was about the conflict between Panama and the canals all over the flag raising incident that occurred and Balboa High School in 1964.

00:55:33.740 - 00:56:43.670

Andi, because of all these different things that have happened between Panama and the United States, um, there has been built up a bad feeling on both sides about what happened. The Panamanians, um oh, want more credit than they've been given and the Americans want Thio keep their, uh, their importance, and I to the public, however, it comes down to the truth, and history is a set alive, agreed upon, and that was Napoleon Bonaparte's up dead and God can alter the past.

00:56:44.330 - 00:57:57.970

History can and history is a myth and arranged, whether real or imagined, yeah, and history or historical events become glittering icons and incident. A flag at the Bible High School has become an icon that both sides have attached away too much importance. Thio, um, they Panamanians believe that there was a fight between the Americans and the Panamanians over raising the flag, and therefore they were slighted and a riot ensued where people were killed.

00:57:58.630 - 00:58:51.720

Okay, and as usual, the media and who, which is controlled by the government, falsely portrayed the event and the truth has never been told. And all those stories in the books the event has turned upside down. They thing that really happened on that day as I was riding my motorcycle down the street past the high school and saw a group of people standing over there, and I stopped and got off and went over there, and I was standing right at the base of a flagpole.

00:58:52.420 - 00:59:22.320

This is a flagpole that came up out of a big cement column that had, like, a bench around where you could sit around that pole. And on this bench they're standing. Ah, bunch of American students and a few of American parents were standing around the flagpole, and what had happened is when the treaty had been signed, the treaty guaranteed that the Panamanian flags would be flown alongside the American flag.

00:59:24.320 - 00:59:59.250

And the college and Panama, where where these students went was a radicalized college a time. There was rumors that communist infiltrators from Cuba and all had been agitating the people in this college. And that is probably a myth. It's probably just the fact that young people can, you know, take event thio whatever level they want.

00:59:59.250 - 01:00:27.420

It would be sort of more like a football game or each side, once their side to be, you know, decide that winds or whatever on DSO these students and their spammy and college got together and marched into the canal zone. Nobody bothered them. They came all the way thio School and brought this flag that they had the hoist on the pole.

01:00:29.010 - 01:00:58.340

However, the Americans that have been living there and working there all those years of feelings were running pretty high about this and they weren't ready to except this, But they happen and they were staying around the black hole, uh, to stopped his event from happening, however, there was no violence involved.

01:00:58.710 - 01:01:35.280

Then there was no violence really intended. It was just a demonstration of each side, more like each school demonstrating before the football game that they wanted their side to win. And I had walked up to this flagpole, was standing right next to the Panamanian kid if he walked up with the flag and this bench was surrounded by a hey hedge of bushes that had all been trimmed, manicure heads right.

01:01:36.010 - 01:01:58.460

And there was a lot of cut branches in this in this hedge, and this young boy tried to step up onto this bench. The hoist, the flag and the people were standing around. There was no place for him to step up. So he stepped up towards the bench on, then took a step backwards because he couldn't be on there.

01:01:58.470 - 01:02:28.230

And as he took a step backwards, the flag snagged in the branch of the bush and tour. And this kid was mentally embarrassed about this and didn't wanna be blamed. We're tearing the flag and he turned around and yell. They ripped the flag and he took off running with the flag back towards Panama.

01:02:29.000 - 01:03:01.510

And they all took off running after Hazel and they ripped the flag. They ripped the flag. Hey, ripped the flag or the flag ripped. Bye, Champs. It was not done intentionally by either side and on their way back Thio, Panama. They broke a few windows out of some cars and everything, and they went across the street in the Panama, on masked and together and all came storming back.

01:03:01.510 - 01:03:38.500

And by that time, the United States military have been alerted that there was an event happening and military was in right positions across the street. And so there was rocks, tear gas and flown back and forth. Um, I have left the flagpole and follow these students back on a motorcycle, along with another friend of mine, and we were parked at an con post office, which was at the intersection of this event.

01:03:38.500 - 01:04:01.350

What's going on? Watching what was happening. It was It was, Ah, a normal riot scene where the Panamanians were charged with rocks and sticks and the military were fired. Tear gas and they go back. The tear gas got to be so bad at our eyes repairing.

01:04:01.350 - 01:04:42.890

We went to the Tivoli Hotel because it was their condition when we went in a dining room in the Tivoli Hotel or looking out the glass window is watching this and this this event had spread. Word had spread through Panama really rapidly. And so, uh, the Tivoli Hotel was at another intersection where Mawr students were coming up from that intersection also, and there was a military police firing tear gas, and finally some of the rocks were being thrown, came to the windows where we're standing and broke.

01:04:42.890 - 01:05:02.910

The windows out of tear gas came in. So me and my friend left a dining room of the Tivoli Hotel and went upstairs to the top floor. We got the top floor. There was a door opened in one of the rooms, and so we went into that room.

01:05:03.880 - 01:05:40.920

And on that balcony of that room facing Panama, there was two solders, um, which are known as snipers with high powered sculpt rivals that we're sighting in on the window of a building a couple blocks away in Panama, where there was a Panamanian person firing at the police down below and the ammunition and that these guys were using within the room.

01:05:40.920 - 01:05:56.300

And so they asked us to give them the push the ammunition out to them. They were laying on the floor before way, but we slid the ammunition out to him as a zeroed in on this window. Thio suppress this guy that was shooting at the police.

01:05:57.690 - 01:06:24.900

And finally a military officer came in and ordered us out of the room because we were surveillance. And but at the time that we were there, nobody was shot. The they merrily returned, fired, suppress this the sniper that was shooting the whole time. All along the line that I had been thio, nobody was ever shot.

01:06:27.180 - 01:06:54.000

At the end of the riots, there was a big frank us because a number of students have been killed and the situation Waas is that students that were killed were killed while they were looting the Pan American building which was set fire to buy other looters.

01:06:54.680 - 01:07:15.790

And so these students were upstairs polluting the offices of the Pan American building, while other students set fire to the building Underneath. On these students, suffocated to death and smoke, and the deaths of those students were blamed on their Americans. Excuse me, what year was this?

01:07:16.380 - 01:07:54.110

1964 and now the main street between Panama on and the ex Canal Zone was called Fourth of July Avenue, and now that is called the Avenue of the Martyrs. And there's a statue where the old canals on police station here is to be of these students that were killed and has them killed has them raising the Panamanian flag on a flagpole and dying doing it.

01:07:56.650 - 01:08:31.410

So what has kind of happened? This as a propaganda event, was created around this to establish Panamanian sovereignty and righteousness in this event, and unfortunately everything is taken out of context. It was a sad event. There was something that really didn't need to happen, And the blame doesn't lay with either side.

01:08:32.870 - 01:08:58.600

You could try to lay the blame on either side by prior events or or prior prejudices or whatever. What the eventual don't lie behind the circumstances what they claim that happened. The students that raised the flag were never assaulted. The flag was never desecrated by any Americans with an unfortunate event that happened.

01:08:59.470 - 01:09:30.410

And history is written by the winners always. And so there's been many books this event written in it, and it is always written in favor of Panama and depressed, uh, desperation of the Americans. My statement is just bring up the fact that the canals of people and the Panamanians had a really pretty good relationship.

01:09:31.190 - 01:09:49.720

This would have never happened. It would have never ended like this. And before I came in here to this room, I also talked with another friend of mine. They were standing here and confirmed the exactly event the way I just explained, it is the way he saw it also.

01:09:51.280 - 01:10:16.990

And so the stories that air read in the books are written by people who were not there. And my account is personal eyewitness and with the highest integrity. And I'm talking about the person who feels like the day our Panamanian and I am in a Latino.

01:10:17.800 - 01:10:33.180

And but I wanna wipe out the animosity between these two groups of people over this event. Yeah. Oh, thank you, Mr Holt. And this concludes this interview