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Good morning. My name is bringing me here. Today is July 2nd 2000 and 15. We are at the Panama Canal Society Convention in Orlando with the summer Procter Oral History Program at the University of Florida. I'm here with Mr Number. Thank you for joining us, Mr McCumber.

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I just wanted to start off with your date of birth. Where were you born? Your early childhood history. I was born in 19th November of 1965 in Rochester, New York. Spent a lot of my time as a child living and growing up in Lake Placid, New York.

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Then we moved back to Rochester town of Webster. And so that's where I spent my 10 years until joining the military and going off to get greater and better things in January of 1985 1985 was that when you graduated? I graduated high school in 1984. Okay.

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The same year I enlisted in the military. So January of the following year in 1985 was when I in basic training, unfortunately. Okay, um, growing up while you were living in New York, what kind of job did your father and your mother have? My mother was a business administrator for Xerox Corporation for about 10 years, and then she went back to school.

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My father worked as an industrial chemical engineer for Eastman Kodak. Okay, um, how what brought you to Panama? The United States Army. Okay. Received orders of overseas assignment reporting to Panama in March of 1988. Um, do you know anything about your duties there? My duties there.

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Where? As a combat engineer, which is a glorifying the treatment. In other words, we carry a lot of explosives. We blow things up. Um, I was assigned to a combat heavy engineer battalion, which was responsible for humanitarian construction projects, is a part of the Department of Defense, State Department and host nations.

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So the time that I spent in Panama, lot of it was out of the country. You know, in places like Honduras, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Salvador, Ecuador, Peru, Colombia, Venezuela, Argentina. Was that the 15th? Did you participate in the 15th Infantry Battalion? No. I was a part of the 5 36 Engineer Battalion, which was a combat heavy engineer unit meaning mostly construction bridges, roads, wells, buildings, airfields, things of that nature on then did a lot of traveling with them through humanitarian programs on then in the latter part of the nineties, um, we return to Panama after departing in 1993 coming back in 1994.

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So in the latter part of 1994 to 1999 I was assigned in an engineer company tasked organized, meaning we felt under the control of the fifth Battalion, 87th Infantry. Uh huh, um, so we're essentially assigned to an infantry unit but still trained, organized to do humanitarian projects in other countries.

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So we did was a lot of platoon exchanges. In other words, a 20 to 30 man element from the US US station in Panama. We do an exchange with a platoon or company sized element from anyone of 19 countries assigned to Central South America in that region.

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So we did a lot of inter exchanges with other nations. When I arrived to Panama in March of 1980 I did not know anything about the Spanish language because everything I learned in the eighth grade is a 13 year old kid. I forgot. So it was.

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It was a fast paced learning environment for me. So it was It was beneficial. Uh huh. To match the Spanish language because I was able to meet people who were the assistant chief to the secretary of Defense or Minister of Defense of Guatemala, Honduras, Argentina, Ecuador, El Salvador, on Nicaragua.

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So I actually interacted with the senior most military counterpart to the United States Department of Defense. That's awesome. Which was enjoyed. Um, can you talk to me about your time in the canal zone? What was the nature of your work there? What were the kinds of things that they had to dio while you were there while working in the canal zone was almost no different than going to work in a military installation here in the United States Way did RPT in the morning.

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We did our weekly tasks in our training events, as you would do here in the United States, maintaining your level of preparation and ability. Thio, if you're called up to perform in a military capacity, you could you could do so, uh, being in a military. The canal salon in itself presented some challenges, one being non Spanish speaking to begin with to the culture.

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Um, and the way that people live in the country of Panama is very different than the United States. They don't have the same. They only have the same concerns that we do here in the United States. Okay, Yeah. They don't have air conditioning. All in their houses.

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They don't. Everyone doesn't have two cars. Not everyone has a job that pays, you know, 30 to 40 to $50,000 a year. The average Panamanian makes less than $600 a month by our standards. Here in this country is very different. But toe live in Panama is very vibrant.

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People are very vibrant. They're very warm there. Vory Welcome there, Curtis. They enjoy life to the fullest, which transitions and translates into us becoming mawr Receptive. Thio. You know there's more to life than just what we do here in the military and a day to day basis way.

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Spend our weekends with friends, other people that were living in based facilities where we would go with them and we would go to the park so we would go to the lake or we would go to the beast. The same things that we do here in America, the difference is the language.

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The currency was the same, which made life easy. But the difference was the language. And once you overcome that barrier and you open yourself up to what? What that part of the world has to offer it za life changing it really is eso what made you go into the army?

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I was the oldest of three. Um, I want to go to college. I got accepted to some pretty good universities. Um, I don't want to burn in my parents with my future. I was raised to talk that you were a man. You're educated, You graduated high school.

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You've done very well for yourself. Time to get a job. So initially joined the military under a two year enlistment just to help pay for college. Um, at the end of that two years, I realized I enjoyed what I was doing. Jumping out of airplanes, jumping out of helicopters, come out during the brotherhood of of that part of life that you develop with with your fellow American or we have people who are from Puerto Rico.

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We have people who are from Guam. We had people who were from Indonesia. We have people who are from the Philippines. We had Japanese U. S. Persons, citizens that came to this country many, many years ago that we're giving back on. I thought to myself, I'm here and I'm surrounded by this greatness.

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Uh huh. You're meant for more than just going to school and getting a mundane job standing in line like a piece of artwork getting shuffle along from place to place a Z, we say in the military, or were herding cats. Okay, Or you're part of the cattle that's going off to work because it's the same routine every single day.

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That was it for me. Even today. It's not the same routine every day. Um, that's why I joined the military. Um, was solidified. Be staying in the military. Um, was that having met my wife was a Panamanian. That's a different story that we're well, we want exposed too much upon here because it might be embarrassing to her.

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But to me, I find it humorous, um, solidify staying in the military because it provided not only for me, but for my family. And so it's given us a lot of opportunities. Um, it's helped us achieve so much independent from the military. Like my daughters, my daughters wouldn't be.

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Wouldn't have attended the University of Florida had I not been where I waas the time when I came here because of the military. We've received so much in return for me, having sacrificed 23 years of my life to public service, right, fighting the nation's wars, going often, seeing different parts of the world.

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I'm 50 years old in November, and I've seen 34 countries in nine major conflicts. That's not so. That's pretty much why Joint military. That's great. Um, from your 23 years of service, Um, what are some of your most memorable roles? Memorable. A venture activities it's been speaking of in Panama or in general, um, Panama.

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My most memorable experience living in Panama. Um, I guess would have to say during the invasion just cause it was the first Christmas of my life, and I, his husband and wife, we didn't celebrate until February on the fact that even though it was a military action in the country, where were where we were living in the military, Um, seeing both sides of the argument, the four and against and the fact that I was in a position to help people who are caught in the middle, both sides of that argument to take care of themselves, to find shelter, to be care for through that 30 day time period.

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Um, for me, it was very, very personal. Um, and at the same time, my most memorable moments of living in the canal zone, um are the people that you meet that you work with and that you live with not only within the military but the people that you meet, who live and work.

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They spent their entire lives generations in Panama and that they welcome their You know, you're you become a member of their their circle or their families, if you will. You know when when somebody comes in Vegas that su casa estas en casa? Meaning you're at home or make yourself at home.

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You're always welcome here. So when you earned that to me personally, the people that we've met, the people that were there were Panamanians that I've worked with in my capacity there, who weren't within a military system, being invited to their homes and being a part of their celebrations.

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The Birthdays and the anniversaries and weddings and baptisms and confirmations. A za Catholic man being brought into this. Those are some of my most memorable moments. Both of my Children were We're growing up in that country. My youngest, my oldest, was born there. Yeah, my biggest and deepest connection to that country is that unfortunately, right after the invasion just cause military actions were all over.

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Um, my wife at the time was expecting our first child, and God had different plans. So she's actually interned, resting peacefully with God in the core is all military cemetery. Unfortunately, Uh huh. So those are my deepest ties to that country to the land? Uh, not just that.

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My wife and her family, but my own. Is there permanently? How much time did you spend in Panama? Uh, March of 88 to December of 92 in October of 94 to June of 1999 s almost 10 years between two tours. Um, at what point did you meet your wife?

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There. That's funny story. I arrived in country on the seventh of March of 1988 going through the in processing and getting situated with the unit and your equipment and going through all the mundane. You know, this briefings for this or this briefings for that. So be it s way to military works.

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Can't do anything without a power point presentation. So I got to my unit, I'm in the barracks and the guy next to me, he was dating this girl who was a roommate off my wife. So they were all living here, these three young women in an apartment.

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Excuse me. And he said, Hey, why don't you go out with us? You know, my my girlfriend's roommate doesn't have a boyfriend or anything. You know, maybe, you know, introduce you to her, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, Alright, Sure, Why not? So my hair was significantly shorter, and I was much thinner than I am today.

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Um, why? When I say thin, I'm saying about £60 thinner. Okay. All right. And so we went to her apartment and were there, and he's big into country music. And I'm like, Okay, I'm here. God help me. What am I doing here? What I get myself into, you know, I don't know anything about this country is in my first weekend second weekend in country s.

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It was the 23rd of March 1988. We go on a blind date, she comes to the door and she sees me sitting there wearing his stupid cowboy hat and drinking. You're doing a Miller beer. I'm still gives me shivers. Um, she looked at me and thought, Oh, my God.

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What did you bring into this place? You want me to go out with him? I think you see the look at her face was hilarious. And so we went out and we were talking. And, of course, she was educated. Graduated high school for Walton Beach, Florida, the same year.

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I graduated high school in New York. 84. Um, she had a job going to school. International affairs. We went out. We had a great time. I don't know how to solve segment. Angry acid are alert. He's me, you know? No, I really don't know Spanish, but I'll learn I'm amenable to about anything.

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And so it took me 30 days for a second date. You're persisting 30 days. I would see her at work. I would call her bringing flowers. Just show her that I liked her everybody thought I was crazy. I was like, What are you doing? I said, don't.

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She is the one that I meant to be you. I knew it in my heart. I did. So I went on a second day, and then things were going along and I met her grandfather on. I think it was your that was your grandfather had passed away.

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I've been to her mother's house once at night. Uh and so they're The family was at her mother's house. And so I got into a taxi and I picked up a bunch of food and I went to Kentucky Fried Chicken. I think it was about all kinds of food, and I stopped and I got some beverages.

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Well, it's a Catholic family, right? So you have a period of mourning, right? The death of a family member. People usually show up with our prayers and food. I'm a Roman Catholic. That's what we do. And so I'm telling the taxi driver in Spanish derecho he scared, left right, straight ahead, navigating through this mountain side community in Panama in the dark.

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And I got to her house. And when I showed up and I said, Hey, I know. I heard your grandfather died. I brought some food. You know, I realized things were the way they are, but I just want to show my condolences. I'm sorry for your loss.

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And I think with her and her mother, um, that was probably the point in time that she realized it. Okay, he's not a bad guy. So you seal the deal? Probably. Yeah, that's great. But I've always been very respectful and courteous and polite. I'm into my nature.

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If I wasn't my grand parents and my my father's parents would probably roll over in their graves and strike me down because that's the way I was brought up. Um, so a question. Your wife, she went to school in the States. My wife was an international exchange student.

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Okay, so in the year, 1980 was 81. She came to Fort Walton Beach, Florida, to live with her aunt, um, her mother's sister. And she went to high school for three years here in the States and graduated high school for a while. Reach floor, then at the end of that term, should return to Panama E Then she continue with her studies and worked life.

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There is not easy. Um, if you're slow and lazy, you get left behind, so you have to work. Um, and mind you, this is only four years between graduation and meeting her. So in the four years she was working and going to college and I had already been to military training exercises in Egypt and Germany and Turkey and South Korea in England, it's almost four short years in the military.

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I had seen quite a bit of the world, right? So I didn't go to Panama. I'm looking for a wife. It just the way it happened. Yeah. Is they tell you as a child, my son. Listen, God has a plan. You just have to open your heart and pay attention to what he has to say.

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Well, at that moment in time, when I met her, I just happened to be listening. Oh, but here we are on this 27 years later of marriage. Yeah, it's beautiful. It z not been easy has been a roller coaster in some ways, but it comes down toe how much you love and care about a person.

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You appreciate them being your life. and their Their words can never be replaced. You know, especially when you when you start a family and you lose a member of that family and your challenge that way, then you pick up the pieces and you start all over again to be graced and blessed with two more Children, you know, and everything that we've achieved in our lives together.

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It's pretty incredible. It is. Okay. Well, I want to go back a little bit, so I want to talk about the invasion. Um, can you tell me a little bit about that? Just what was going on? What was agenda? Well, it was a 1930 separate. And my boss, my supervisor staff sergeant, came and said, Hey, we got a training exercise coming up.

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We're only gonna be out for a few days. We leave before Christmas. You know, I had no idea what was going on, so I packed up a week's worth of stuff stuff in my rucksack. Grab my Kevlar helmet. My battle rattle is we call it, which is the best that we were carrying, you know, canteens and pouches for ammunition and first date kitten.

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But pack and I let other happy stuff. You know, that was a but pack it fastened to the rear. Right. Um, you packed your poncho, some food, some foot powder para socks, the toothbrush. But everything else carried in your rucksack because when you admit military operations didn't carry all of your gear, you staged it and then you went out and came back anyway.

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So here we are. Way get Thio holding area. And that's when we were told the United States is a being valuable. Where to get rid of Marie again. It was Tamora lease up to that point in time because we had seen a change in the climate since about October.

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That same year, Noriega had told his people that you pretty much have free rein on the Americans. So prior to the invasion, a military officer I did was an N c o. My commission officer were killed in downtown Havana. Uh, which kind of escalated again? The climate changed became very, very 10 cious A lot of people the locals were very concerned about Okay, what is going on?

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What's happening to us? How do we deal with this situation? And so leading up until that point in December, military operations kicked off. Good night. Well, I was staged in a in a area along the canal for security. So here I am, sitting, I've got I've got government and family housing behind me.

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I've got the canal in front of him. So here's this young, these young future promotable soon hoping to be Sergeant E five sitting in a foxhole, going What the hell is going on, then it just kicks off. You see it happened. Explosions were going off rounds.

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You're going off. Airplanes were flying overhead, right? People are knocking down doors, especially at the far end to the south, where the military contingent was settled for the Panamanian national defense at the end of Amador Causeway. So the infantry's charging there. On the other side of the town at the airfield, airborne operations are taking place.

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People are jumping in taking control of the airfield. They have all these different activities going on throughout the country and then in the interior in Panama area. Happen was the other military Panamanian Defense Force facility and an airfield. It was being taken over at the same time.

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Reason being is that you cut off the mobilization of your enemy. So what happened is to cut off Noriega's ability to arm himself and employees military forces. Now, with that said, 20 days later, everything is done. Noriega ran off and hit over the the embassy from the Vatican.

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He was held up. He ran to the Catholic Church. So protect me. A lot of his people were rounded up. Um, my role had changed from being security on a canal to the quick reaction force, which means I moved to Balboa High School. So part of my job was patrolling and Con Hill, which is where the headquarters for the Panama Canal Commission sits behind.

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That was the senior officer areas for the Department of Defense Forces in Panama City at all four services in this one building on top of the hill. So we and by night we were on patrol this to make sure nobody was trying to get in. Nobody's trying to attack as nobody was setting movie traps.

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So it basically just declaring operations for exterior security, and we would sleep by day. Don't even call it sleeping. Um, there was always something going on during the day. So for a week, I live in the same clothes, literally. Sorry if you if you you're the kind of person who likes hygiene, living in the same socks, T shirt, uniform boots, no shower, brushing your teeth.

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No shaving, no bathing, nothing for seven days, 24 hours and maybe getting three or four hours of sleep a night. That's that's exhausted. It's exhausting it is. But it needed to be done because what our role became was protecting everybody who was fleeing downtown trying to get out of the military zones.

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So you had men, women and Children and elderly people coming living at a football field. Balboa High School. And these were people in the poorest part of downtown animal. So the area of contrary Julio, Fourth of July go Rondo, right? It's right on the water. But these buildings 100 years old, he's the poorest of the poor.

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Uh, that's who we were taken care of. And those were the locals of locals of Panama. Okay, um, from your experience, do you Is there any inclination that the invasion had anything to do with the canal faras? Maybe the United States trying to seize it back or testing any kind off.

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Noriega was the kind of person who wanted total control. Noriega is a human being. Did not respect human beings. Noriega was your typical Spanish king or monarch from the 17th century of England, France, Germany, Spain and Italy Mhm. They wanted to retain to maintain control of their empires.

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Okay, Noriega probably killed, um, his predecessor General. He's very famous man. I can't recall his name right now. Uh huh. Entering he took power through a malicious act, a family help. He was probably in bed with every dignitary dictator. We stand corrected. Every dictator wannabe in Central and South America who was very bad to help solidify his position in life.

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Um, he treated people very badly. The people who followed him were called dignity battalions. Their fellow Noriega's practice, if you will, they would take to the streets and go up against anybody who was against the dictator because Noriega would give them lots of free things. Thes These were very not very well educated people.

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There were poor people there, easily influenced, and they didn't realize the harm that they were causing to their own countrymen for a handout. We see that throughout the world last 2000 years since we kept modern time. We've even seen it through the previous 5000 years in our global history, going back to earlier, earlier Persian and Babylonian time periods 7000 years ago.

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To maintain control, you have the real power. In order to maintain your power, you have to wield excessive force. That is what Noriega was doing. There are a lot of people in government who were afraid of Noriega. There's still a lot of people in government today who are afraid off Noriega because the man is still alive.

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These people know a lot of things about what he did because they were co conspirators, if you will involving these same acts or receivers of benefits for from him for letting him do what he wanted to do. Okay, so there's still some tensions. Uh huh. Um, I don't think the country could suffer another person like that again, but it was not about the United States maintaining control because it was a treaty agreement that was signed in 1977 under President Carter.

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There was no way the United States government was going to go against that treaty through military action or force, they would have readjust the issues politically at the state head to redefine the relationship. Today. That relationship is that the Department of Defense still supports the Panamanian National Forces, the police force, which has a small military force that is nothing more than National Guard, if you will.

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For the country they have no standing army. They have a small Coast Guard Air Force contingent that protects the country of Panama. They do not have a full standing army. We continue to go there and trade them on both air operations, naval operations and ground operations.

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We continue to train them on how to professionalize the police force. We continue to train them on how to professionalize their special investigative services, kind of like our FBI, our dia, andare, customs and immigrations personnel. We're continually helping Panama to take care of Panama, but this country will always support that country because of our political relations.

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But anybody who says the United States invaded Panama to take back the canal is a liar and a thief and a cheat. It was all about getting the country back to a form of democracy, of parliamentary rule because they have a parliament, their their legislators, our elected bodies just like they are here in the United States of America.

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They represent their townships and their citizenry. They present those tiu, the leader of the nation, the president, the vice president and head of their their Senate in the lower house, if you will, the way that their structure rates for self rule. Noriega wasn't about self rule.

00:32:41.340 - 00:33:10.670

Noriega was about the um Passo otras now one step backwards, and he wielded that. There's their stories about how many people did Noriega really removed from office is that we're threatening you. Nobody knows people talk. Where did this person go? Where did this person go to this day?

00:33:11.240 - 00:33:30.740

Panama's a country on into itself. It's landscape has changed. The government is functioning, working for the people. They have had another election of a new president whose Opus Dei meaning. Before he was actually sworn in as the president of Panama, he went to the Cathedral of Panama on the Catholic Church and attended Mass.

00:33:33.940 - 00:33:59.590

It is a Catholic country, but they welcome all religions and faiths. There's Cindy's, there's Muslims, there's Jews, you name it. They live in that country is very international, and it's very metropolitan. When you fly in, it looks like you're flying into New York City. Really? Yes, the country has grown and expanded that much.

00:33:59.600 - 00:34:29.010

This might not have happened under a person like more IgE, right? The prosperity of Panama's in the hands of Panamanians. But the fact that they have people on the outside such as the United States to help an assistant could only improve their their prosperity not just the prosperity of those top right, but throughout the entire population of the country, I mean, recently, they have improved their police force.

00:34:29.010 - 00:34:51.760

They've expanded their police forces. They have improved upon our national security services. They've increased the monthly wage of what people learn through their jobs. They they're trying to make better improvements, that their Social security of their national health system, Um, they're making improvements and inroads of agriculture and in production capabilities.

00:34:52.380 - 00:35:12.810

They're working with the Italians in the Swiss Thio, amplify the canal at both ends, where it meets the Caribbean, Atlantic side and the Pacific side to accommodate larger vessels. So everything is growing in prospering. But through a plan process, Um and it's You can see it every year I go back there.

00:35:12.810 - 00:35:40.690

It's different. Something's changed, but it's for a good change. Um, e want to talk about the tensions at the time when you were when you were serving in Panama. Uh um, due to the nature, I guess I'm not only the exchange of power of the canal going back toe going toe, Panamanian ownership, but then the invasion after the invasion or even before the invasion.

00:35:40.700 - 00:36:08.970

Um, did you see any change in attitudes between the locals on the Americans? Not really. Um, the biggest change towards the Americans again with these people that were under Noriega that were loyal to him in his cause. Um, prior to there really wasn't a very big change, even from the police force.

00:36:09.630 - 00:36:27.060

Point of view, because americans driving a car stood out like a sore thumb. You have special details yet? Window details. They knew you were in American because of what you drove. Okay, um you really want targeted? You weren't pestered. You weren't harassed. You really weren't picked on.

00:36:27.640 - 00:36:43.680

You basically suffered onto the same things that every day Panamanians fell under. Meaning you had the guy industry who was okay? I clean your window window washer. She know you wanna buy water. Do you wanna buy this? Do you want to buy that? That's what you were subjected Thio okay.

00:36:43.690 - 00:37:07.760

And imposed the invasion. Um, things really began to normalize fast. It was as if nothing had happened. The memories are still there because of the students at the university protests, both against the Americans and against Noriega. So you had two groups of conflict at the university.

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Those who are pro and those were against. So you avoided that area like the plague. You know, when the protests were going to take place, even when the protests weren't happening, you went around in the University of animals just to avoid conflict. Um, post the invasion.

00:37:32.730 - 00:37:55.760

Um, my unit actually set out. We started in the province of Chickie in the city of Divide Way actually went instead of rebuilding schools throughout the country. So we're doing national projects as a military unit from the United States of America in support of the Panamanian government.

00:37:57.190 - 00:38:17.150

We did number of roads, number of schools. We actually drilled wells and brought people water that didn't have water before Um and I had traveled the whole entire country to include the town of Visa, which is on the southern side, near Columbia in Panama, where Noriega's from.

00:38:19.020 - 00:38:38.050

So here's a platoon of U. S. Military personnel building bridges in the town of Noriega, and we were treated like Thank you. Thank you for what you're doing for us. Uh, now we can get to the airfield and we could get medical supplies because we can cross the river.

00:38:40.720 - 00:39:00.330

We can now get to the hospital, because now we can get to the airfield. And it was a major major agriculture. And they were They were forestry. They're cutting down trees. They were making lumber, and they were selling it around the world because it was all mahogany and teak, which is very expensive.

00:39:01.620 - 00:39:26.480

So he had his beautiful redwoods, but people would get hurt and they couldn't get to unearth. So we built on the bridge. Beautiful bridge. Yeah, but the climate after, um, the people were less threatened, Meaning you could speak about things without someone pointing a finger at you or telling you.

00:39:28.000 - 00:39:47.920

Let answer. You mean you don't speak about that? Don't talk about that. Get you in trouble. Neighbors were against neighbors, but everything normalized. You could now talk about the President. You could talk about the vice president. You could talk about what the government was doing. You could talk about How upset you.

00:39:47.920 - 00:40:06.770

Where were the police department? Okay, you could argue that. Wait a minute. Why are you raising the price of the canasta? The basic daily staples that we need to live when you haven't increased our wages. Or why are you rise in the price of gasoline? What?

00:40:06.770 - 00:40:25.340

Do you have an increased our wages? Why are you making it tougher for us? You're supposed to improve things for us. But then again, it went to another transitional period post the invasion where things started to get better and normalize. People were buying houses. People were buying cars.

00:40:26.010 - 00:40:48.040

I think there are more cars on the road today in Panama that I have ever seen in my life where you can't move. Alright, Traffic congestion is just that bad. Um, the country has a whole host. The invasion has done a 180 did return from where it was prior to the invasion.

00:40:48.810 - 00:41:19.130

For the better of the Panamanian and not because of the United States of America, but because of the Panamanian. In the last 15 years, the country has grown. It has more trade and commerce coming in and out. Agriculture is up. Manufacturing fabrication, um is up. Um, people are getting paid mawr on a monthly basis.

00:41:21.180 - 00:41:52.790

Significant improvements have been made to the national health system. Um, it still has somewhere to go. Things could be better. Um, that comes down to the government because his government run. Uh huh. In other words, my nephew was hospitalized. My sister in law was bringing him food because the food that he was getting there wasn't enough or, uh, badly prepared.

00:41:54.710 - 00:42:17.440

Eight people in a room, one bathroom, one shot. There were certain medicines that he needed that the hospital didn't have so in my life. And I would support them and send them wire transfers of money to buy him medicines at the local pharmacy that he couldn't get in the hospital through a medical health care assistant.

00:42:19.300 - 00:42:48.140

That's where the country needs to improve. But you can go to a private clinic and see a doctor, and it costs you $5 for a full exam and you can go to a private lab and get lab work done. I mean, I'm talking full, extensive, full blown medical lab work for $40 and get the results within a week where you cannot get that at the national hospital in a week.

00:42:51.200 - 00:43:23.240

Unless you pay into the social Security system in Panama, you cannot take advantage of the national hospitals and medical. They can't necessarily turn you away, but they don't have to give the same level of treatment. What's interesting? Okay, so as I say that a national health care system where unless you have Social Security taxes being taking out of your income, you cannot participate in.

00:43:26.400 - 00:43:55.510

It's extremely different what we have here in America, the United States. But even so, there's a mirror effects going on between the two right, But overall, I would have to say that the second year in a row, the international community is correct when they say that Panamanians probably have the highest quality of life in the world for the second year in a row.

00:43:56.900 - 00:44:16.230

Because they're able to work, they're able to enjoy themselves. It doesn't matter where you come from in the world. It doesn't matter what your external appearance looks like. It doesn't matter what the accent is when you speak Spanish, if you are born and raised a living in Panama, they consider themselves Panamanians.

00:44:18.090 - 00:44:44.300

So this day, day they're not caveat an extension of being a Panamanian, meaning I'm not an Asian Panamanian. I'm not an African Panamanian. I'm not an American Panamanian. I'm not El Salvadorian. Panamanian. I'm not a German panna mean. No, they're all Panamanians. And that's what they look at themselves.

00:44:45.250 - 00:45:08.060

The national pride of the country is we have one banner and we're all Panamanians now. They might have differences. Which post and pre invasion and at certain countries that moved there migrate and established businesses do not like to hire the local national Panamanians. They opened a business, and they bring more people from their home country.

00:45:09.880 - 00:45:42.820

That is the post conflict. That's the biggest today. Foreign workers taking jobs issue rightfully be given the penalties by other foreign people who have moved there and taking jobs, make businesses and bringing people from their own countries toe work. Right? Namely the far east. Um, I wanted to ask you uhh! When you were going to decide where you were going to live with your wife and your family.

00:45:42.830 - 00:46:05.080

How did you make that decision? And where did you ultimately decide to live after leaving Panama? Well, we left Panama in 1999. I went to school. Out For what? You Carrizo hna For six months. Uh, then we find ourselves living at Fort Carson, Colorado. Okay, tropical.

00:46:05.950 - 00:46:29.920

6000 ft elevation for climate, snow cold, warm tropical. Big change my life. Um, we decided to stay in Tampa, because when we left for Carson, I had received orders to go to the Middle East for a year unaccompanied, meaning? My family had to stay in the States.

00:46:30.980 - 00:47:07.210

So I had gone to my lieutenant colonel supervisor, and I said, Okay, if I take this assignment, I want a choice assignment on my return. Coming back. You said where you wanna go? I said, Well, I want to go to either Central Command or three Joint Command MacDill, Air Force Base, Chapel, Florida, or I want to go to Eggs and Air Force Base Or Hulbert Airport Airfield, which is in the Panhandle for Long Beach area Destined floor.

00:47:08.200 - 00:47:29.100

You said Okay. So I went over there, I got orders bringing me back to Tampa, Florida, to MacDill Air Force Base. Um, em on those orders changed twice before I even came back to the United States. Someone from Central Command over to Special Operations Command. And that's where I stayed.

00:47:30.780 - 00:47:53.420

Eso When we came here, I went to Fort Walton Beach, Florida packed up. My wife and kids drove to Tampa, Florida checked in the base housing and this We decided to stay here after retirement because I was offered a job that, quite frankly, I couldn't turn down.

00:47:54.080 - 00:48:28.780

Um, this is the longest. We've been anywhere in 27 years this January of marriage. Um, this is the longest. I've been home with my family. Well, I haven't go anywhere since coming here to Tampa, Florida, prior to arriving here. Um, in February of 2003, I have spent 11 years away from my family and stuff.

00:48:29.270 - 00:48:58.990

There's a lot of people still going through that today it's not easy becomes challenging. It becomes anxious and a test every part of your being to be separated even for a month. Some of these people have been six months. They've been a year. They've been two years.

00:48:58.990 - 00:49:31.160

They've been in my case over time. 11 years. So between January of 1989 and June of 2006, I have spent 11 years away from my wife and Children, and it was great to be home. It's great to go to work. I'm still a public servant. Do my job support my clients and my customers.

00:49:31.940 - 00:49:49.380

And then, at the end of the I could go home and I could have dinner with my wife. Or now that our Children older and getting their own lives in order, I could spend my weekends with them and fire up the gas grill and cook some dead cow or a chicken or pork or whatever.

00:49:50.170 - 00:50:13.360

Make some arose Camp Oyo or Rose can gondolas or whatever the case might be enjoying my Children on their friends and our friends so it z nice sacrifices worth. That's good to hear. Um, now that you mention that, what kinds of things do you teach your Children now?

00:50:13.370 - 00:50:38.310

Maybe about religion, about your culture, the Panamanian culture. What kind of things do you feel that is important to instill in them? First and foremost, a Z. My wife and I are both Catholic. Our Children are raised Catholic. Um, I expressed to them that this is what you is.

00:50:38.310 - 00:51:17.700

A person have confirmed your beliefs in through the sacrament. And I encourage you to continue with that practice. Yeah, I personally believe that between the time spent away from my family and the military operations and conflicts, the places that I've been that because off my faith it's taught me humility, love, compassion, honor, integrity, courage.

00:51:19.260 - 00:51:55.060

Um, and I honestly believe that a lot of things in my life, despite having some of them gone bad. Then in the end, I am my efforts and endeavors. And my perseverance has given me much on a sure that. But if you're honest, upright, true to yourself, before God and man and most importantly, yourself and you work hard, you will have successes in life with those successes.

00:51:55.760 - 00:52:23.930

Remember to give something back. In other words, be charitably, be compassionate. If someone asked for your help, think about what they're asking. First, make sure that it's not gonna cause you any harm or damage and then help them. For example, today I'm having breakfast in this woman watch into the restaurant and says, Can you buy me a bus ticket today?

00:52:23.930 - 00:52:51.480

I need to get I said I'm sorry. Um, e can't. I was willing to go a step further and say But I will buy you something to eat if you're hungry. But I will not give you money. Do the difference, right? She was a vagrant looking for a handout, and she started become disruptive.

00:52:51.850 - 00:53:06.580

Yeah, And the lady said, I'm gonna You need to leave. I'm gonna call the police department is known our own Call the police. I'm going. And I've told my Children. And when you see these things happen and you see people, if you could help them, help them.

00:53:07.650 - 00:53:38.180

You give them something to eat, something to drink. If you can give them a little creature comfort do. So, um, I've always tried to be Ah, good role model to my daughters and my wife and my friends, my parents, my brother and my sister, Um of what a good man should be, what a good dad should be.

00:53:39.750 - 00:54:12.370

And I don't use the connotation, Father. Father is a negative term towards a man, in my opinion. Really? Yes. Russell any man could be a father. Any man can father a child, but it takes a dad a real man to raise comfort, carry, support, protect, provide for a child and his wife and his family.

00:54:14.340 - 00:54:40.560

I have given everything that I have and still do to my wife and my Children. Yeah, I didn't mean to upset you. I didn't mean to make you cry. It's in his day. My Children go back to Panama every single year we go at Christmas time because it's important to me that they continue to know their family, their aunts, their uncles or cousins.

00:54:40.570 - 00:55:04.360

Their grandmother, who is still alive in Panama E I encourage them to embrace the Panamanian culture because it is part of them. Their mother is from Penn. They cannot forget about the other side of their their family lives, even as they start their own lives. Um, and even our oldest one is engaged to be married to a wonderful young man.

00:55:05.440 - 00:55:26.160

She's gonna have another family that she has to contend with who are her in laws. He's already met to Panama, and he's met the entire family, and he loved it. He enjoyed it and So I go out of my way, um, again, financially as well to ensure that we're together at Christmas time in Panama.

00:55:26.840 - 00:55:39.250

Because I made a promise to my wife that as long as her mother's alive, I'm gonna center as often as frequently as I can. And then we would spend holidays with her mother and her sisters and everybody else, to a point where we just finished building a house there.

00:55:39.940 - 00:56:15.970

That's great. So, yeah, so that's that's where I continue with my daughters in the Panamanian culture and their family. Because it is family. It's blood. Yeah, you can't break those bonds. Well, God could break those bonds, but human beings really shouldn't, um So, through all of your experiences in the military in Panama, outside of Panama, uh, meeting your wife, starting your family what do you think that you have gotten what has resonated with you the most through your experiences?

00:56:19.230 - 00:56:47.060

I would have to say that having married a Panamanian and living there and having traveled there continually through the years, um, to me is through the the love of family that I've learned that I've grown into over the years within the Spanish culture at large, not just the Panamanian culture.

00:56:47.530 - 00:57:12.060

Um, but my what resonates the most of me having lived in Panama and the family that I have there, the in laws is that, um no matter what happens, good, bad or indifferent. The door is always open. Even with the people that we know there who are friends, they have their lives.

00:57:12.070 - 00:57:26.670

We have our lives. But when we come together, it's like we never missed a beat. Does that make sense? You could spend 68 months apart, and suddenly you're there. You show up. It was like, Oh, my gosh, It's so nice to see you. When did you get here?

00:57:26.670 - 00:57:57.160

You know, all. Come on in You Are you hungry? Do you want something to drink? You know, and it's great to be that thought about. And I appreciate it and loved, um by people that you don't spend a lot of time with, but that you've come to know and growing close to over the years that no matter the distance, a soon as you come back together again, it's wonderful.

00:57:57.930 - 00:58:29.960

It really is. And I've tried to express that to my Children as well. That you know, the doors were always open. You just have to show up and knock on the door, ring the doorbell and somebody will be there with a warm heart in a smile and say, Come on in, that's that's what it is when you go back there and you visit and because I have to ask, Um, so how do you feel now that the United States has has relinquished complete control over the zone and now it's, um, in Panamanian hands?

00:58:29.960 - 00:59:01.530

How do you feel about that? I think it's just okay. I think it's deserving that the host nation, um, is given the ability and the opportunity to maintain itself and manage itself to become a better nation for the nation, right? Excuse me and not a better nation for a small group of people at the very top.

00:59:01.920 - 00:59:29.050

I thought it was everything that happens with that canal. The management of the canal and ownership of the canal to the Panamanian government finds its way down to the cappuccino, who's living in a little plot of land growing his own vegetables. He receives benefits from that, and I think the Panamanian government is doing a very good job in the administration of the canal as they should because it's there's things, is the legacy of their country.

00:59:29.820 - 01:00:02.550

This is the future of their country. And it's one small part of the future of the Panama Canal because it za shortcut between two bodies of water. Yes, it is a prominence in the world map. Everybody in the world knows that the Panama Canal, they talk about the Panama Kate, but that's what brings focus on the rest of the country for the Panamanian, because when people go there, they take a cruise ship liner through, and if they have a day, pork called, then they get off the boat.

01:00:02.550 - 01:00:20.380

And what do they mean? They meet the guy on the side selling the spa does, or the shaved ice. They meet the woman on the side who has her basket with their empanadas or tortillas and tamales. And you know, you've got the local food vendor over here selling, you know, a hot dog with coleslaw.

01:00:20.390 - 01:00:38.920

That's what they see. They see the warmth of the country. Then they say, you know, I want to come back and people go back and visit. It is becoming the new Costa Rica for for people around the world. You know, expatriots, they travel and stay for a time, period.

01:00:38.930 - 01:00:55.690

I mean, there are people that go there that we've run into time and time again. All your back. You're back. Yeah, we're back here for a month. Really? Yeah. We love it here. Okay, there, people that air significantly older than I am and they travel back.

01:00:55.690 - 01:01:10.390

And that's the beauty of the canal. Going back to the country of Panama, A zit has opened the horizons of the world not just because of a body of water, but because of the people. The body of water is the knowledge. Yes, it's there. This is where it sits.

01:01:10.740 - 01:01:31.720

But it's everything on the periphery of that canal that brings people to the country of their administration. Handling of it is great. They made improvements. It is very efficient, is being managed very well. And they're holding up to themselves, not the rest of the world, but to themselves.

01:01:32.210 - 01:02:02.610

Because now it's in their hands. They're doing a very good job. What brings you to these kinds of re unions? Um, honestly, what brings you to these unions? It's funny you ask. I like coming here with my life. Because what? It makes you happy. Okay, She gets a lot of enjoyment out of speaking to people about Panama, sharing the culture and the arts and crafts and things of that nature.

01:02:03.100 - 01:02:25.110

But we see the same people, a lot of the same people every year. And so, over eight years, we've kind of bonded with the people that grew up in the canal zone. They didn't. They keep the society and the remembrance of living and growing up in the canal alive because this is the only way that these high school graduates have class reunions.

01:02:25.890 - 01:02:43.250

This is it for that. Yeah, for me, having lived and worked there, it's a means of connecting with the other side of life of Americans living in the canal Zone growing up in the canal zone because their jobs and their way of life was completely different than mine.

01:02:43.660 - 01:03:07.940

I was There is a military service member. They were there because their fathers and mothers worked for the canal zone or their parents worked for the Department of Defense as school teachers or ground keepers or maintenance personnel or office administrators. medical personnel. Um, but they grew up and went to school there to American schools.

01:03:07.950 - 01:03:23.130

But they also interacted with the local culture at the lowest level because they will tell you story. So we got a guy you go, which is nothing more than a dugout piece of tree bark way paddled over here to this island. And we went swimming and fishing.

01:03:23.130 - 01:03:41.720

And, you know, we went over here to this place and, you know, someone so pretended he was old enough and got some boos. And we went out to the island and we got drunk and puked all over the place, you know, then our parents were all upset because we didn't come home until the next day because we were intoxicated or we went to this island and we went fishing and camping and hiking.

01:03:42.300 - 01:04:01.600

You know, I know if I have ever going there as a kid, we find the mountain. You know, it's a whole different way of life for these people. And then you interact with that. You share your stories and your experiences, and then you realize you learn that growing up there was such, um, just an open environment.

01:04:02.090 - 01:04:28.410

There were no restrictions. There were no boundaries. You didn't have telephones and cell phones and computer systems. 10 speed bikes and you didn't. You didn't have the amusement parks. The jungle was your amusement park. Yeah, going fishing in a on a boat with 10 other people was your amusement park, you know, going to the local fairs and cultural festivals and things.

01:04:29.290 - 01:04:46.510

That's that's what life is all about. Learning the language and the colonials and enjoying the food that's you. Come back here and you experience all that again. I mean, the way some of these ladies talk about their lives, you could smell in the kitchen, you know, or you can hear the music in the background.

01:04:48.130 - 01:05:09.070

And when you when you speak with them and you see their eyes light up, especially the older people that you know the graduates from 1950 you're still around and you see them. They're very happy when they talk about their past lives and our experiences that period of their lives and a human.

01:05:09.070 - 01:05:39.550

Some people here they were part of the original Panama Canal Police Department way started in 1920. These people 197 years old when they work for the original people who started all this until you get the history of it, it Z It's wonderful. It really is. Oh, Mr McCumber, At this point, I would like to ask you if there's anything that we haven't talked about, that you would like to get on to.

01:05:39.550 - 01:06:10.100

You, for yourself was a Latin American studies major for for your Children, for your Children. For anybody who's curious about Panama itself, the country in the canal and its history, I would say, Find the time to take a week and experience it and live it because once you're a part of it, it's zlook going to a tattoo shop.

01:06:10.780 - 01:06:33.890

Okay, it gets under your skin and it stays there because when you go when you go to another country and they treat you with with decency and courtesy and respect and a smile. E. I appreciate you for being a human being and not a tourist mhm.

01:06:34.680 - 01:06:55.410

You really have to experience. I would say that personally, having lived there for a long as I did, I think it helped shape me to be who I am today, and I certainly think that it's helped my Children, um, become who they are too, because they still continue to travel back and forth.

01:06:57.050 - 01:07:22.750

They've taken those experiences as they've gone to other countries and have expressed to where they're going and where they've been. Those inter relationships. So it z become a growing part of us. Yeah, but it will surprise you. The beauty of it at its lowest level, huh?

01:07:23.580 - 01:07:44.150

This is there's no difference in being here at its lowest level. It really isn't. Except for being greener and hotter. That's that's about it. Okay. Oh, Mr Macomber, I wanna thank you for your story and your time. You're welcome. Thank you.