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Hello. My name is Richard Lyons, and I am part of the same approach to oral history program. And I am here with Frank Townsend as part of the Panama Canal Society. So, Frank. Mr Thompson, why don't you start off by saying where you grew up? When?

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A little bit about your childhood. Basically on Frank Townsend on the third generation Zona. So both of my grandfathers were involved in the construction of the canal. My parents, My mother was also born in Panama, and obviously she met my father there. And I'm the third generation.

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So I grew up in Balboa. I graduated from Balboa High School in 1958. Okay, so could you elaborate more about what you roll? Your grandfather, your grandparents had as well as your father and mother. And basically, I never knew my grandparents my grandfather's because they passed away.

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They were deceased before I was born. So I mean, basically, it was my father, and I know the stories of them about the canal. But being a university professor and civil engineering, I've had an interest in the construction of the canal. And so I've looked at the history about that part of the canal.

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So that's why my interest are there. Mm. Okay. And then what did your father do and then what stories I could tell you. Also, as an engineer, he graduated from Michigan Tech, and he was employed down there and what was called Section surveys in the engineering division.

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And he stayed there for I don't know how many years I think you did 36 years of service or something. So he basically it's a long time zone. My mother talked to school at Baba Elementary School, Physical teacher And how was school? And on Mobile. The school systems in Balboa were excellent because at that particular point in time, to be able to teach at the schools and the canals and you have to have a minimum of a master's degree.

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So the teachers and education were excellent, and we used to joke and say, if you had a marginal the average from Balboa High School, you could get in and succeed in any university in the United States, and I'm probably a result of that. I I do not have that great of a high school grade point average, and here I am sitting as a college professor.

00:02:37.650 - 00:02:55.520

So that's pretty. The education was outstanding. Yeah, and can you share a little bit about what was thought that subjects that might have been told it's typical that you would have, I mean, really inviting arithmetic. And we took the the math. We had probably more stem work in those days.

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It wasn't called stem. Obviously, then you have today. But I mean from algebra all the way up into analytical geometry was the math courses we took. We had shop, we had mechanical drawing. We had the physics and the chemistry with the typical courses we all took in high school.

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But in those days you had to be both. So in other words, you couldn't say, Well, I'm just good at math and not good in English. You had to know English as well. So I mean, basically, the English and social studies were talk to us as well.

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I was in the band for four years, so that was one of my options. And then I did. ROTC is my other elective, So I had to stem courses, a math and science to non stem courses, which would be English or literature and either social studies or civics or something like that.

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Then we had two electives. My electors were banned, and it's the third of last elected was ROTC. Mm hmm. Okay. And aside from the school, how was your life outside of it In terms of extracurricular? And it was paradise because basically, we had absolute freedom, and you didn't worry about locking your doors or things like that.

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And basically, there was no air conditioning, So you played outside. And so the only rule was you came home when the street lights came on and you could roam wherever you want to do when your parents never knew. And it was a very, very safe environment.

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So we rode our bicycles and played, and the jungle was literally our backyard. So we played in the jungle. I mean, where that was literally in our backyard. And so the childhood was unlike any childhood, you never have the United States. And then with the people you hung out with the group where they're all part of the stone of the Panama itself, or a combination Well, I had a different.

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I had another little history that I've done as well when we think. But I said the thing that makes a zone Ian unique from anybody else in the world is a blending of three cultures Most of us had a made for. The West Indies would be the maid that worked in the house.

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And so the maids came from the islands, and the first language that we learned how to speak was with a very strong vaginal or West Indian accent. And that's the way we grew up, because that was the first kind of words we heard because the mothers and the fathers would every working in the mid would stay at home and take care of us as Children.

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So my maid was Amy. Amy Lewis was her name, and she was a Jamaica woman. And so we have that particular culture of the West Indies, not only the West Indians, but the cuisine. So the food we ate. So we grew up on Purple yam P and Gunga peas and rice and coconut and rice, and these were the kind of foods that we ate when she would prepare.

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So you had that strong West Indian culture. Not so much the music, but some of them call that the American culture obviously were North Americans that were living there. And so we grew up in the food that we had was the hamburgers and milkshakes in the French fries and a standard food that you get in America that you would expect.

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And the music that we listen to was a standard rock and roll of Elvis Presley and Pat Boone and those kind of music's we had in the country Western. So we knew the American culture, and our schools were in English as well. So you have that particular culture, and on top of that, you have the Panamanian influence and the idea that Salvenmoser block Cristiano Ronaldo with the Panamanian.

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We learned Panamanian dances at the very, very early, the music Kaluga used to play at all the high school dances. And so we had that infusion of the Latin music was very, very strong. And the Latin cuisines there. So we ate, cut him in yours and m paternalism, um, a rockin polio and plot acorns.

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That was the kind of diet we have. So now you take those three cultures and you throw them together and you mix them and that's where we are. And the result of it is you have a blending of those. And that's what makes us zone Ian Amazonian.

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Because that's who we hung out with. That's what we hung out with. Okay, so from that, I'm guessing you identify with all three cultures and embodied all three cultures throughout your time there. Yeah, And I know you mentioned the maid and you hadn't made. Could you elaborate?

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Your what? Relationship with what impact she had on you when you grew up? Sure. I mean, basically, she was in the one that raised me. So basically, when I would come home from kindergarten at very young age, Amy is the one that took care of me.

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And it was a very, very friendly environment. I mean, yeah, the Jamaican or the West Indians were very, very happy to work in the canal zone. It was a good salary, and they were employed, and there was the benefits of with it. And so my parents took care of a me and, you know, she would take care of me And the way I grew up, I mean, I'm used to her cooking.

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I'm used to her talking. And when I skinned my knee, she was the one that was comforting me because my mom was teaching. So basically, it's nothing. But there was never what I would anticipate. Hostility. There was no segregation. Your black West Indian and I'm American white.

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I mean, that's that never happened. And there was inequality all the time. And you're speaking to where you lived. I'm speaking on this, okay? Yeah. Okay. And did you ever go outside from Cologne and Explorers? Of course. Of course. I mean, we're very comfortable in Panama as well.

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I mean, the border was just stepping across the street. So basically, you could go from the canal zone across. All you have to do is step across the street and you in Panama, and we're going to go out almost Panama Cristiana, we leave. Our team was almost again to and we just mean Panama was part of the culture.

00:09:08.190 - 00:09:26.920

I mean, it was there's no dividing line as far as islands. You just walk across the street and you're in Panama. So what? What's the big deal? Um, yeah, we speak Spanish. Spanish. So what? I mean, I didn't see anything different about it. The jungle was lit in our backyard and so basically roam the hills and the mountains and the lakes and rivers.

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And how part of it? Mm hmm. And after you graduated high school, what happened after that? But after high school, then basically most of us left and came to the States to go to an education. So I left home when I was 17, I went to Michigan Tuck to get to start working on my college degree, graduated after four years, the Michigan tuck one in the military.

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Because that was the way it was going to be. So I did. Three years, three months and 26 days. So I was with the Corps of Engineers. I was stationed back in Panama because of my language. Mos and I was in the eighth Special Forces, and I worked in Colombia, and I worked in Peru.

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Yeah. And why did you decide to leave Panama goal to the United States when you first. Because of education, there was no, I mean, basically there was no, There was a junior college. There was a two year junior college at in the canal zone. But if you wanted a four year degree.

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You had to go to the United States. So it was. It was known at a very early age. If you were going to go to college, you were going to leave at 17 or 18. And although most of us did, most of us did. Okay. And how was that transition for you?

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Very difficult. Yeah. You've got to experience a kid that grew up in the tropics. I've never seen snow in my life. I've never seen so most people. I asked me. I said, Can you remember your first snowfall? They will say no. I said I can because I was 17 years old and I remember my first snowfall.

00:11:06.510 - 00:11:21.240

It was totally unlike what was expected. It was cold. It was cold. I'd never experienced cold. And I'm I auditioned. The idea of coal was sitting in an air conditioned theater. So I mean, the people that were my classmates at Michigan Tech How'd you shepherd me through?

00:11:21.240 - 00:11:32.820

They literally went down to pennies J. C. Penney's and help Me by winter clothes because I didn't know how to dress for the winter time or what to do. I mean, basically my roommates went down with me and said, Okay, you're gonna need this. You're gonna need Colossus.

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You're gonna need wool socks. You're gonna need this kind of shirts. You're gonna need a hat. You're gonna need clubs. You're gonna I mean, basically, they made the transition for me. It was extremely difficult and extremely lonely. I was 17 years old and I'm 3000 miles from home and I don't have Internet, and I don't have a cell phone.

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And basically I didn't go home for a year and a half. And so when the dorm would close Excuse me, residents home would close at Christmas time. I had to be adopted because I had to find somebody was gonna put up with me for two or three weeks until school opened up back again.

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So I went home with people that would quote unquote a classmate or someone said, Hey, come on and spend Christmas vacation with us because I wasn't going home and I wasn't going to a hotel. So basically, every every Christmas, I was looking for an adoption, so that was what it was.

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And did you ever find someone you could identify with at least someone who reminded you of the people you hung out with when you were back? No, there was no Latinos. There was no Panamanians. There was no zone. Ian, so to speak. That could say, Hey, I know what you've been I know about, I don't know you can totally isolated.

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So figure I have a lot of empathy with an international student at Gainesville, Florida I have a lot of empathy, a lot of empathy. Wow. And so what made you return back to Panama a year and a half when you were well, basically I could get a summer job.

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So basically I went home and work for the summer, earn my money, and then went Baptist. So summer job. I'd go home the first time. I didn't go home because in the engineering program you had to take summer surveying camp. And so I had to stay.

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To stay there for summer school was requirement. And how were the summer's going back? What? Going back to Panama? It's great. I mean, it was wonderful to have to reconnect with with run gets, you know, sleep in your own bed in your own own house. Eat the home food that you used to do and touch your touch your roots one more time.

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See friends of the growing up. I mean, it was, you know, it was a homecoming. It was a homecoming. And then the end of the summer was very sad, because basically, you going back to school. It's going back to school. Remember, there's no Internet. You're not sending an email.

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You're not texting people. And you're not sending me pictures over the phone. You're gone. If the only thing you ever communication had you wrote everything by letter, I mean, everything was written, handwritten letters and their parents were still in published in Panama. Wow. My sister was still there, too.

00:14:08.050 - 00:14:23.970

And how did they feel? So I have a lot of empathy with an international student. International student comes university forward. I got a lot of empathy with them. A lot of empathy. Okay. And around what time period was this when you went back for the first summer around?

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What? What year was it when you first went to the summer? The summer that went home was the summer of 59. Okay. And so were you aware of any of the ever since you were born there and up to that summer, we ever have any of the politics were going on around that time or not?

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As a child, I wasn't aware of it. I mean, we knew the politics and we knew that there was trouble. And the I didn't come into my later years when I was stationed there in the military of the part. I was there in the 64 riots and I was in uniform in the 64 riots.

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I was stationed at Fort Gulick in the Special Forces during the 64 riots. And there's a lot of misconception about the 64 rise and what's been written, and what's precipitated from that are not the way I remember it, not the way I remember it. Um, there was at that particular point in time.

00:15:16.370 - 00:15:34.130

There's an excellent book called Danger Over Panama is used to watch who wrote what the riots were about, what was taking place, but I'd rather not go back and revisit the 64 riots. I think the 64 riots are people that have a grudge or trying to push an agenda.

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It's like picking at old scabs wound. And those people that wish to harbor the ill feeling of a riot that took place 50 years ago are people that are still worrying about the Confederate flag. Their agendas are different than my genesis. I don't really care about the 64 rides, Okay?

00:15:52.350 - 00:16:17.880

We don't have to talk about, I don't particularly. I think it's fruitless to talk about it. I think that people will rewrite history, their own prejudices, and there's no point in that. What, what's the point? And so I'd rather move on. And uh, as far as Panama concern, I've never had a hostile moment or an antagonistic towards any Panamanian I can think of in my life.

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I mean, I dated Panamanian girls like some of my good best friends and Boy Scouts for Panamanians. I mean, for Pete's sakes. I mean, yeah, and so let's just go a little bit back. And then I know you went to university. You graduated and then you decided to go into the military.

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Why? What was your motive? Motive was is called the draft. You are too young. You don't realize it, but this was just before Vietnam had not started up. I came in. I went in the military service at the day of the Bay of Pigs went I was a week before I went into the day of the Bay of Pigs in Cuba.

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And so there was a big, strong agenda in Latin America with Castro, and that was taking place and all that chase you got and all. I think it was taking place in that particular politics at the time. So here I am as a second lieutenant. Wow.

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And so yeah, why do I go in? I didn't have any choice. Yeah, right. And then you went to your station in Panama Station in Panama. And then what was your role there? Well, it was actually very, very altruistic because what they were trying to do was called civic action.

00:17:25.360 - 00:18:00.820

They were trying to counter the gorillas that were working to promote anti Western and anti American sentiment. And so we were trying to show the different countries that we were there to help them. And so I spent six months in Peru building roads, and the way it worked was I was assigned as a tag team to approve an officer's name was her name was Lieutenant for nonetheless are Severo el Chocolate, which is the Jackal, and l shackle and Frank Townsend like brothers for six months.

00:18:00.830 - 00:18:17.820

And we were building roads during the day and at night we would tell stories. And if there was a fiesta in town, El Chocolate and towns were at the Fiesta in town. I mean, basically, he was my shot and I worked with them. And then I went to Columbia for a year.

00:18:17.830 - 00:18:49.790

It wasn't that much of a relationship well, but I worked with a guy named, um Nadia was the Colombian lieutenant, and he once again, wherever he went. So during the day, we worked on roads and construction and heavy equipment, trying to open up roads to open up the country and show the local population that the army was not their enemy, that we were there to help them put it in wells for water and building buildings from.

00:18:49.790 - 00:19:06.480

That's what we were trying to do as part of the objects physic. So it was a counter, a counter positive action. That's what I spent 18 years, 18 months of my life doing, and how did the people react back at it. Like I know you were trying to send a message with with you where the people receptive to that message.

00:19:06.480 - 00:19:25.550

Especially it depends. It's the same as people everywhere. Some people saw me as a North Americano gringo. Some people saw me as a Panamanian to some people saw me as somebody that was there to help them. So it depends. Everywhere you go, it depends on what your agenda happen to be or whatever propaganda with you happen to be.

00:19:25.560 - 00:19:42.580

I don't really remember any episode in my life. When I was with in the military, in Colombia or Peru, there was an animosity. There may be people that thought of it. Some people may have called me gringo behind my back. I mean, no important didn't matter to me.

00:19:42.580 - 00:20:02.840

I don't if you speak Spanish or not. Yeah. I mean, no important, you know, important. Okay, that's not my mantra. Okay. And then So I remember you were saying that you spent three years on stationed or in the military, correct? Under service? Yeah. Okay. And then that was And after that, what?

00:20:02.850 - 00:20:17.400

Oh, Lyndon Baines Johnson signed the GI Bill, and I happened to be at a very young, nice young lady who was studying for a master's degree, and I thought, She's this lady is nice. She's going to get a master's degree if I'm gonna make this relationship.

00:20:17.410 - 00:20:29.170

So maybe I should go back to school. And so Lyndon Baines Johnson signed the G I. Bill and I went back to school and g I Bill and I'm getting my PhD and marrying that lady. Where did you meet this lady? I met her in Panama.

00:20:29.180 - 00:20:48.220

Oh, it was a very nice story. It's a lovely story. She had come home for Christmas vacation and she had brought her roommate home with her. And she was at Duke at that time studying for her masters. And I had come out of Colombia on Christmas break because they shut down pretty much down there.

00:20:48.230 - 00:21:06.280

And my sister fixed us up for a date, Right? So basically I started dating her that Christmas, and we eventually got married. And so when you decided to go back to school, did you go back to the United States and I came back. I went to Oklahoma State, so my degrees are from Oklahoma State.

00:21:06.290 - 00:21:22.840

My advanced my graduate degrees from Oklahoma State, and then eventually I worked for the Corps of Engineers for nine years and then eventually got the position at Gainesville. I want to do Are you see your position now? I'm retired. I'm also an engineering professor. I'm retired.

00:21:22.850 - 00:21:51.980

So I was in Wild Haul for 26 years, and my wife, Marvel, was in the math department. She taught math. She thought she thought all the pre calculus courses in the math department. So Gainesville has been very nice to us. You have been very nice to us, and even after you marry, did you go back and forth between Panama and we went home a couple times on vacation because both sets of parents were still living there, But eventually they retired and came to the States and the reason for going back and lost.

00:21:51.990 - 00:22:10.320

And I went back a couple of times to teach short courses at the University of Technological that Panama, which is the Technological University of Panama, I would teach him one week short course, so I would go back, and I basically would teach a short course for one week come back.

00:22:10.320 - 00:22:33.210

So I went down there a couple of times I talked two or three times down to universities are taking over the Panama. Okay. And of course, my courses on Spanish. So I loved it. So once again, did I feel animals? And it was very strange that here was here was the north of Mada Cano, now at the university, teaching them and years Amazonian at the University of Panama.

00:22:33.210 - 00:22:52.550

Teaching courses. That's my money. There's no problems. Yeah, there's no problems, Okay? There's no problems. Unless you want to make it one. Exactly. Mhm and where you are. And what state or what? What time? Period. Where you basically when 1977 came and the treaty was signed.

00:22:53.540 - 00:23:09.880

Pardon? Where? Where you do you remember the time or the place where you were once, 1977 came and the treaty was signed to handle? Yeah, I was. I was. I was in Vicksburg, Mississippi, getting rid of transition because I came to gain from 1 79. So I was in Vicksburg, Mississippi.

00:23:09.890 - 00:23:32.330

How did I feel about the treaty? I got caught up in the propaganda and I paid attention to it, and I should have been smarter than I was. And so I've come 180 degrees. Yes, I voted. I thought Jimmy Carter gave the canal way, which really was something that I thought that they were given away the heritage of my grandparents, and I got caught up in the propaganda.

00:23:32.330 - 00:23:52.870

I've come 180 degrees. I think it was the absolute right thing to do. I am so proud of the Panamanians. I am so proud that the transition and the treaty was a 25 year transition. The Panamanians and I'm speaking as an engineering are doing magnificent. I am so ecstatic about the expansion is taking place.

00:23:52.880 - 00:24:11.670

It's an engineering marvel. My only regret is that I wish that I could have worked on the expansion and said I worked on the expansion as my grandfather had worked on the original construction. But I am very, very proud of the Panamanians, and I don't look at it.

00:24:12.440 - 00:24:33.220

I don't see an American canal, and I don't see a Panamanian canal. I very strongly dislike people putting labels on it. Yes, the Americans built the original canal. My grandparents did, because why? Because one they had the technology at that particular time they had the equipment at that particular point in time.

00:24:33.230 - 00:24:44.440

They had the financial wherewithal, the building At that particular point in time. We were the only country in the world that could do with the canal at that particular time. So who else was going to do it? Who wasn't gonna do it? The French tried it and failed.

00:24:44.840 - 00:25:04.750

And so, essentially, that's that's why it was. So why is it an American Canal? Because the Americans there, why was the treaty written away? The treaty was because there was no way you could convince the Congress of the United States to put this much money in this much effort into building a canal in a foreign country without some guarantees that it was going to come back.

00:25:04.760 - 00:25:19.900

And so the treaty was signed and we could protect the canal, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. And the treaties were gradually relax. And eventually the right thing was done in 77 when the canal was reverted back to a very, very good transition, and I thought it was an excellent it's born fruit.

00:25:19.900 - 00:25:36.050

I mean, the proof of the pudding is that it's outstanding. The canal functions well. The treaty worked well. Panama's taken over. It's wonderful. And do you think you are in the minority or the majority with No, no, no. I think the majority of us feel that way.

00:25:36.060 - 00:25:52.990

I think the majority of the zone IANS are very, very happy with the way it's going. We may quibble a little bit about Oh, it doesn't look the same as it does, but no place 50 years ago looks the way it did what it does. But I'm extremely proud of the Panamanians.

00:25:53.010 - 00:26:14.310

I'm very, very proud of technologically to happen. I wish more than welcome to U F F. I do have one. PhD, Panamanian, though, uh, PhD Panamanian. Uh huh. And then let's go a little bit backwards to when you're talking about the transition and you mentioned that you felt like it was good transition that happened.

00:26:14.310 - 00:26:27.660

Can you elaborate on that? How was it? A good transition basically was very savvy. In other words, it just wasn't It was It was. First of all, remember, there's no blood was spilled in this. It was done through 25 years, and basically the transition said Okay.

00:26:27.940 - 00:26:48.860

In the 25 years we are going to revert from Americans running the canal, being the operators, being the technological people that make the thing function. And we're going to gradually transition Panamanians into those positions over a 25 year period. And they did. The pilots from all the way down always transition to it and became part of it.

00:26:48.860 - 00:27:11.100

I mean, basically. So it was a changing through time of 25 years of educating the workforce, developing the workforce and get into going. The biggest thing that was probably is Panama has to run. The canal is a business model. Whereas when the United States man the canal, they ran it as a service break, even project totally distinct.

00:27:11.110 - 00:27:27.630

And so that's why the differences between the two of them right now Panama depends on making money that the tools make any revenue. United States was not worried that much about the revenue. They just wanted to break even. Okay, so that's the biggest difference between as I see it.

00:27:27.640 - 00:27:45.270

Yeah, And do you have any Children now? Sure, I have. So I know the daughter and I have two grandsons and we took my two grandsons down to Panama in 2013. So they could see the canal and see where we grew up. And we did all the wonderful ecological things and had a great time, and they enjoyed it.

00:27:45.270 - 00:28:02.310

So we took him around the canal and spent a week down. There is good tour and they stop culture that you and your wife go around and everything. Is that something that they are here? Not about. No. They hear about it from us because basically, I had Grandpa talks a lot about what's going on.

00:28:02.320 - 00:28:19.500

My Children knew about that. I grew up in the canal and they both have been down there. We took them down in 87 so they could see the canal. But since they didn't grow up in there and what I grew up doesn't exist anymore. But like any city 50 years later, the towns have changed.

00:28:19.510 - 00:28:36.460

People have changed, the customs have changed. So you mean you can't go back in time unless you go back to the future with Michael J. Fox. But not you not to do it. You can't go back and visit it. So it's changed. Everything changes. Gains was not the same as it was when I came there in 79.

00:28:37.340 - 00:29:02.300

Exactly. And so do you think Panama was and still is your home or Yeah, I'm basically when I look at Panama and I think about it, it's It's me. But Isis, it's my roots, a party. And they all know, uh, simply cannot on Panama. He'll always be a part.

00:29:02.300 - 00:29:20.120

When I listen to my iPod, I listened to Panamanian music. I mean, that's what I like to listen to, but that's part of my culture that will never leave me. That will never leave me. But I am very comfortable to the United States University professor. But you'll find out if you talk and it took down in my classes.

00:29:20.120 - 00:29:38.880

I'm gonna talk about the canal. I mean, it's natural. You talk about your experiences just the same as if somebody was a professor from take whatever country you want. They want to talk about whatever country they came from, just logical human nature. Oh, wow. And so as of right now, why do you think it is important to attend?

00:29:38.890 - 00:30:01.920

Or that for example, the Panama Canal Society? Well, basically, my feeling is that it was a tremendous engineering achievement. It was literally the moon shot at the turn of the century. It was a comparable to the landing. The men on the moon was the completion of the canal, and so that particular part of heritage needs to be preserved.

00:30:01.930 - 00:30:25.760

It was a good thing. Don't let anybody ever try to convince you that building the canal was not a good thing. And so that particular part of what was accomplished by the American influence in this particular country has made. It's something to be proud of. And it's something to be celebrated and so far as is the society.

00:30:25.770 - 00:30:38.190

We celebrate it because there's a chance of like a home. It's a high school class. Reunion is basically whatever it is. You go back into the old friends, you see old girlfriends and old friends that you played, you know, people who played sports with and you talk about old memories and you can live all times.

00:30:38.190 - 00:30:55.610

I mean, that's part of what human nature is. To go back and touch your us every now and then in the society is the only place we can keep it. But the beauty of it is tonight we will dance to music that existed in the fifties and the sixties in Panama, and you're not going to find it anywhere else in the world.

00:30:55.610 - 00:31:09.910

If you go to Panama today, you will not hear this type of music because it's it's no longer in vote. It's no longer vote. You wanna hear salsa and different types of music? It's all different. It's no longer vote. It's like going back and playing rock and roll in the fifties.

00:31:09.910 - 00:31:33.000

That's what you're going to hear. So that's why the society is important. It preserves all this. Plus what I'm gonna do with all this heritage. I mean, you got to preserve it. And that's why I'm so happy that the Panama Canal Museum is at the University of Florida libraries so that when we celebrated the Centennial Centennial is there was done at the University of Florida.

00:31:33.010 - 00:31:58.660

The Panama Canal Trail is there. If you ever seen and you haven't walked out on campus, you ought to walk at some time. I'm gonna come back and come downstairs and give you a brochure. That's your homework assignment. Okay, Assignment to walk the trail. Okay. And in general, what's your I don't want to say hope but I can find a better word, but your hopes last vision for generations to come in Panama for what you want it to look like.

00:31:59.640 - 00:32:26.470

Well, I mean, if I was, you know, could wave a magic wand, I would my first. My first thing was, I think there's a misconception that there's an animosity that existed between Panamanians and the Americans and the Americans in the West Indies. And all this time I don't I don't know of any animals, and I can't think of any institute in my life where I felt that.

00:32:26.470 - 00:32:46.880

And so I'm totally naive when I hear that type of thing. My feeling would be that I would love people to go and visit Panama. I would like them to see this canal, which is a tremendous engineering achievement as an engineer. If you're an American, I'd like you to take proud in it.

00:32:46.890 - 00:33:09.770

If you're an engineer, I'd like you to take pride in it. If something you've done if you're a Panamanian, I would like you to take pride in something that was created in your country, and it's very, very part of your history. It made you what you are if you want to compare Panama and Nicaragua, Remember, the canal almost went to Nicaragua by two votes by two votes.

00:33:09.780 - 00:33:31.550

It did not go to Nicaragua and look at where Nicaragua is today. And compare the gross national product on Nicaragua with the gross national product of Panama. And I rest my case. Arrest my case. So take advantage. If you're a Panamanian and you want to think in that light, take advantage of this tremendous heritage that you received.

00:33:31.560 - 00:33:47.130

It's been beneficial for your country and grow on it. I would just like you to see what I am seeing. I would like you to grow old. I would like you to have grandchildren. And I would like you to pass through life very, very calmly and enjoy life.

00:33:47.140 - 00:34:04.460

Don't get hung up on all these animosities that our preconceived by somebody because they don't exist. And what would be my wish for the Panamanian people? You've got the best. Everything you've got the food you've got. You drink cafe around in the morning. You have papaya con Limon.

00:34:04.460 - 00:34:25.170

When you want to you eat a rockin polio. You've got corvina to eat. So you've got the food there to have one of the time you've got the music. You've got the culture. You've got a beautiful country. Mhm. You know, it's wonderful. It's paradise. So and if you haven't been to paradise, go visit it, go visit it, enjoy it.

00:34:25.180 - 00:34:52.530

See it. Hm? Well, I agree. And so I don't have any other questions, but I'm not sure if you have anything else you want to add. Um, I think the museum at the Panama Canal Society, the museum that's now at the University of Florida, is extremely important, and I hope that legacy comes.

00:34:52.540 - 00:35:16.810

I hope that it gets on people's radar screen that they come and visit it. And when they come to Gainesville that that becomes part of their visit just as much as they would go down to the Butterfly Museum that they would say, Hey, let's go up to Smathers Library and see the Panama Canal exhibit as part of it.

00:35:16.820 - 00:35:39.720

Or if I go to the Museum of Natural History to see the dinosaurs or the bones that I would want to come in two Smathers Library and see it because it's the only place in the United States where this exists where you're going to have a museum that's dedicated to Panama Canal, and if you want to study the Panama Canal and learn about it, that's the place to do it.

00:35:39.720 - 00:35:53.360

So if this becomes interesting to you, whether you want to study the people or the culture of the Latin American Studies group, whatever group you want to do, that's the place to come as University of Florida and hope that people will take advantage of that resource.

00:35:54.440 - 00:36:17.310

I mean, much as you want to study Clinton or Carter or whoever. Bush's library, You've got to go to Bush's or one of those presidential presidential libraries to see about that individual. Well, if you want to learn about Panama Panama Canal, you come to Gainesville, Florida I mean, that would be my my hope and my legacy that people will do that.

00:36:17.320 - 00:36:23.560

Okay, well, this concludes that interview. Thank you very much. Fun