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I'm Matt Simmons. And today is August 15th, 2014. I'm here speaking with Mr Carlos are alien about his experience. Um, in Panama, more specifically, his experience living in Silver City. Um, not out living in Silver City. Okay, Okay. So in a different location in Panama. Okay, great.

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So but still discussing Panama broadly, Thank you for being here today. Maybe we could just start. You could tell me a little bit about your family background. Um, in your parents and maybe siblings things of that nature. My grandfather came to Panama during the construction period.

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Hey, passed through Iran 1904 which was in the early stages of the building of the Panama Canal. My father, who was born in Panama by my grandfather, came from Barbados, the Panama. My father was born in Panama, and he was eight years old when his father passed away.

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I mean, it was he was eight years old. That's right. When his father passed away, Uh, my grandfather's name was Alexander a lean. My father was Leroy Alina. I am the second off seven Children. Um, my father, Leroy and my mother, Louisa Barkley. Allene. Now my mother's parents came to Panama during the construction period to where they came from.

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Jamaica. So my parents met in Panama, and that's where they got married on. Like I said, raised seven of us. I am the second off seven Children. I was born December 11th, 1941. Um, Okay. Okay. Um and so maybe you could tell me a little bit more about what your father did, What he is work, occupation, waas And maybe even what your mother did as well.

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Um, kind of their experiences? Yes, my mother as a young woman, she after finishing high school because of limited employment opportunities, she did, uh, domestic work. Childcare for U. S citizens living in Panama Canal Zone. And that's how she met my dad. My dad was an employee of the Panama Canal Company and remained unemployed.

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E until is that in 1972? Um, my my father is the eldest boy off his family. Oh, like I said, he was born in Panama. His parents came to Panama marriage, so he had one older sister who was born in Barbados. Oh. Okay. Um and when he was working for the Panama Canal, was he What kind of work was he doing there?

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He worked fund the dredges in Panama Canal. Because of the way the construction was done, there were areas of the Panama Canal had to be dynamited in order for them to excavate and those areas because of the rocks or information in that area. There was a lot of slides in the Panama Canal and continues, even though today toe have slides, well, these judges would go out to the slide area and oh, actually claimed that debris from the area where the slight place and so I can say that's on ongoing problem, particularly in certain areas on the Panama Canal.

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And so that's what he did. The work on the dredge and he was what they call a Boston on the dredge, which would be a leading seaman on the dredge supervisor. So you're talking about a boat? The dress? Yeah, the dredge was a floating craft with a bucket on.

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It's sort of like back whole kind of thing, but a much larger scale and later on the dredges that they brought the Panama Canal. Think they brought one that was a suction dredge. Instead of using a bucket. It was a suction type. Treasures that would remove the debris from the slide areas in the canal.

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That must have been much faster. I would imagine that suction would be Yes. The debris was loaded on barges, which were then take in tow. A dump site along the Panama Canal. Okay. And before he came to Panama, did he do similar work back where he was?

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No. My dad was born in Panama. He was born in Panama. Alright. Is that came from? So how did he get the I guess the know how to do. Did they train him on the job? How did you come into that work? You know, they started this helpers in different maintenance divisions of the Panama Canal Company.

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Mhm and and progress. And that's probably wasn't this awkward line of progression. Yeah. Okay, so he started out kind of as a laborer, and they discovered that he had some acumen and promotions, etcetera, etcetera. Exactly. Okay. And so you said when when he ended, he was he was a Boston.

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Right? Okay. Okay. Okay. And then your mother, you said that she waas She did domestic work until she married my father, which was probably around late 19 thirties. I would say 38 39 1939 on. Then after that, she was a homemaker. She never worked after that.

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Okay? No. And the family she worked for, they were just Panama Canal employees. US, uh, citizen Panama Canal in, uh, employees. Okay. Did did she ever tell you anything about that experience work? Did she work for multiple families or just the wand? You know, I'm not sure.

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Okay. Yeah, I'm not sure. So she never really discuss that? No. Never did. Okay, The only time she never making her friends, that is in preparation of males. She would say some of these means that she learned to prepare working for us families. Yeah. Um okay, so maybe let's talk a little bit about your childhood.

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What was what was that? Like, Maybe your school experience or you're out of school experience. I mean, it's it's really kind of a free flowing interviews. Okay, um, I grew up in a town called Gambo Can Al Zone. You made reference earlier. Thio Silver City. Well, all the communities that housed, uh, employees the Panama Canal who were off Caribbean ancestry.

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We're called silver towns. On that name was the result of the pay scale used in the canal zone. The U. S employees or referred to as gold rate employees and the local rate are mostly Caribbean descendants were called silver rate employees again that originated with the with the pay scale.

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And of course, it was later are not later. But it was deemed to be a sort of a racial on a tone to with this this, uh, naming of these pay scales because then the town's continue to be called silver towns. And, of course, the goal rate towns, you know.

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So I grew up in Gambo, which was about the halfway point from the north to south end of the Panama Canal. The town again was established in the 19 thirties, and it was a town that housed what they call the dredging division. Um, and the reason that area was chosen to build this town was because of the advantage of being able to get toe these slides in the Panama Canal.

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It was halfway between the dumpsite on where most of the slides took place. So if there was an emergency in terms off slides in the canal. It was an easy access point toe. Have this maintenance outfit called the Dredging Division. So did most everyone in the town work with the judging dish was very specialized.

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Most people are Panama Canal employees in Gamboa worked for the judging division. Uh, some work for the vision of schools because there were people from Caribbean that came to Panama who were professionals in their own right, even before coming to Panama. So they didn't come to work on the Panama Canal, But they were like teachers, nurses, uh, carpenters.

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One of my mother's father happened to be a carpenter when he got to Panama, so he worked as a carpenter and family company. I could tell you a little more about him. Yeah, yeah, yeah, My father, my mother's father, was Joseph Palmer. He was a carpenter who worked for the Panama Canal Company and early on and his working years because of an accident in performance of his duty, he lost an eye on and was was terminated after that.

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Those days there was no union benefits are, you know, compensation. So? So he didn't get any kind of payout when that happened? No, he didn't. He he continued working in Panama City as a carpenter on his own. Basically that Z, I think later on, years later, some of these former employees were given some compensation.

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Okay. And how was it that he came to be in Panama in the first place? Just work on a Chinaman, come out with the kind of company not on the ballot, but with Panama Company s O. They were advertising abroad, I presume for these important How would you even know?

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Right being in a different country, A lot of workers. Most of the laborers on the Panama Canal came from Jamaica and Bar Billa's. They migrated to Panama in the early 19 hundreds and worked on the Panama on the construction of the canal. So was the pay better in Panama than it would have been in Jamaica or Barbados?

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I presumed to leave your country. Well, opportunities weren't there. Yeah, well, even in Panama they were weren't that many opportunities for the offspring of these men who came from the Caribbean when I was a young man. Uh, most of the jobs in the canal zone were done by us predominantly white employees and a lot of jobs.

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For instance, jobs in the post office policeman, Um, one of the job there. They were concerned security positions. So they weren't given to these, uh, uh, offspring of the West Indian workers who came to Panama. Okay, okay, okay. So going back a little bit are going forward, I guess, actually, from where we've been discussing.

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So your childhood growing up in Panama maybe describe that a little bit? Yeah, Well, I was born in in the Canal Zone and Con Canal Zone, and that's where I lived. Um, until around 1965 that I moved from the canals on into Panama City. Um, growing up in Gamboa, I I had a very, very pleasant childhood.

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Very. All of us were very, very happy Children. Uh, on my early recollection of school was being taught by teachers who had come from the West Indies, and they came with a lot of their values. Uh um, those ethics, I was very strong influence and us as Children.

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Um, and at some point, the the town of Gamboa, because that was the on the canal zone town were whites and blacks lived in the same town, but in separate sections of town. The powers that be decided to name our section off the town. Santa Cruz.

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I am not sure. I've seen different reasons why that name was chosen. I have No, no, a sound information about that. But I know that it was predominantly because in my assessment, uh, there were two schools. There were schools, were the US kids went. And then there's our school Santa Cruz School.

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But one time the old time was called Gamboa. When I was a child, everything was gambo eso. When that division came, our schools called Santa Cruz School. Of course, the old school continued to be Gamboa school. Now there was, like I said, to schools to club houses, they were toe athletic fields.

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Sounds like the United States. Everything was in that time. Yeah, I'm talking about a town that was less than a half a square of my own, you know? So I was including both sides. It's probably, uh, to be genocide. Said that Tom was probably a mile square, but again, like I said, it was divided in two.

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And what was the popular? Could you estimate the population, maybe Oh, okay. It's fine. It's just I have trouble visualizing with square miles. I could Yeah, I couldn't. Small. Yes. Small where it's very small. I mean, now we go back, it looks even smaller. But like I said, everything was was golden silver US and local rate in in our town.

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Like I said, most descendants off Caribbean workers and some Latinos. Um, for some reason, at some point, we had Latinos from El Salvador, remember, as a child who worked in town too. So not necessarily locals. It could be from other neighboring countries. Exactly. Yeah. And did you have any?

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I guess when you were in school so you wouldn't have had any contact with necessarily the American kids. Children of the American US citizens, uh, again, you know, going back to you guys and with my childhood. Like I said, we had community leaders that were very interested in us.

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There was a lot of athletic programs there was during the summer, particularly. There was a lot of activity for us as kids. We had physical education. Teacher seemed like for life who was a former Caribbean. Uh, Kathleen Champion s O. We were introduced to most of the Olympic sports, like javelin through high jump acrobatics discussed RL tennis, baseball, basketball.

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And we not only learned the sport, but he had us draw dimensions. We had to draw dimensions of basketball. Of course, we have to know the dimensions of baseball field tennis courts so that he was really, um, well around the teacher of not only the physical performance but the dynamics of off every aspect of the sport, right?

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Interdisciplinary, almost zmapp, basically that different dimensions. Okay, it's really interesting. And so for those those of those different sports, I guess that were kind of team sports. Did you compete with other towns, or how did that work in baseball and in a couple of other way, had intramural sports were, our school would compete with schools from other, uh, Panama Canal towns.

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Um, so we had way had inter Scholastic competition, and besides that we had like, for instance, our Little league teams were from different towns. Although not related directly to schools, there were teams from different towns, and as a result, we competed as towns against other towns.

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It was it always Silver city towns against Silver City. Exactly. We never. We never competed against us. Uh, towns? A Some point, I think there was some track competition that took place. I don't quite remember the details of it, but that might have come later. Yeah.

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Okay. Um, were you were you a good student? Did you enjoy school? Or I think I enjoyed. That's a loaded question, I should say with a good student. Sure you were. Well, um, I don't think I applied myself as well as I could have. I had my brother who is one year older than I am.

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He was a very good student, very much into from a kid. I mean, he loved reading and and on my sister was one year younger than I am. She was a very good student to very. She applied herself where they both did on I was in between the both of them.

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So I was ableto right there fame for some time because teachers would see me show up in his. That's in a lien. So, you know, he's a high performing guy s o take them a while to realize, But I think what? I was average student and was there was there a library.

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You said your brother wanted to read. So you have, like, a school library? E library. I love to read, too. As a kid. Um um, un besides, besides formal school, I think there were a lot of things that contributed to our education. I was involved in church churches.

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We had about five or six different churches in the community. It's a small community. It is, um, some, like on the churches I attended, they had essay contests. So we way learned to write essays not necessarily in an academic setting, but in church. And I think that we had positive peer pressure because we had friends who, uh, would make fun of you if you didn't perform well.

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I mean, if you had to read and you're making mistakes, your friends will be laughing at you, getting stuff like that. So we really had a positive peer pressure that forced you to perform. So, being in that kind of environment, I think most of us the worst of student was a pretty good student.

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Yeah, um, I'm kind of curious. The church's What were the different denominations? Do you remember that you had there? We had a Catholic Church. We had Anglican Church, Seventh Day Adventist Church Baptist Church. Those are the four I can remember. And besides, they were different religions.

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There was one called Christian Mission on. I believe that originated in, uh, in Barbados, initially being a British type poverty. Now, as a child, I attended something that was called the Edith Capital Society on for most of my life. I never knew what that was until recently.

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I looked up online, I so that Edith Capital was British nurse who was executed. She was accused of espionage and I don't know how to society camp, but but again because people that came from the Caribbean and at that time the Caribbean were British subjects. You know, I think they brought a lot of that influence.

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Now this Edith Capital Society. Although it was conducted like a sort of a Sunday school class where we learned Bible verses, Uh, in addition to that, we learned how to conduct conduct ourselves in meetings like parliamentary procedure, that kind of thing. We had re exactly with all that stuff, and I had to be no older than 10 at the most, or maybe even less one when we attended that kind of I think so, Yeah.

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Um, something came to mind when you were in school. Was did everyone speak the same language? How were you instructed, I guess, is the question. Initially, all the schools, because they were US run schools were conducted in English on at some point in the early fifties.

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Um, there was Spanish being taught as a subject. There was one teacher who would rotate between the canal zone schools and one day a week and and teach Spanish as a subject. And then around, I believe, was 1954. The Panamanian government and the U. S. Government came to an agreement that these schools had to be conducted in Spanish because the students in these schools or Panamanian citizens on DSO then the whole conversion took place were schools who were changed over the Spanish and then English was taught as a subject flip.

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Yeah, yeah, exactly. Now, as a result of that, quite a few of the instructors who were off Caribbean descent they were not burst in Spanish on the ones that couldn't adapt or are convert lost their jobs. So that was an interesting time for us A students.

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I don't think we found it that difficult. Um, on Dykan. See you. Why? The Panamanian government insisted on this change partly because just imagine, our grandparent's coming from the West Indies on having their Children in Panama who spoke their parents language, which was English. And then there are parents.

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Their parents were became our parents, who also spoke English in the home. So conceivably you can have a Panamanian child on Spanish is the national language of Panama. But Children not on speak Spanish, right? Although their citizenship is Panamanian, so this had to be corrected on it was, and I could go on with my younger siblings.

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I can see where there was a total, um, conversion because of their fluency in Spanish as compared to mine. Okay. Okay. And that is that brings up another question. The citizenship. How did that work in Panama? Was that if you were born there you are a citizen, or I know different countries have different.

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Yes. No, as long as you're born in Panama, your Panamanian citizen. Um, the only way you could be considered U. S. Citizen is if one of your parents was a US citizen. Uh, then you would qualify the U. U S citizen. Even though we were born in the Canal Zone territory.

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We were still Panamanian citizen because both of our parents were Panamanians. Azan Example. John McCain was born in a zone in the in the hospital there. Right, But because his parents were U S citizens, he's considered a U S. Citizen s. So there's a couple of hoops.

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It's not just enough to be born in the canal zone. Your citizen that your parents also have to be citizen Exactly. S Okay. Eso your home growing up? Maybe you could describe that a little bit, or the house is very different there than they are saying The United States are in the Caribbean.

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Yeah. The housing that was built for Panama Canal employees. Yeah, it was different. I don't think I've seen that type housing and in places. But any off the buildings that we we lived in were 12 family buildings. They were divided into three sections. Each section had, uh, two units on the lower floor off.

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First of all, the buildings were built on sort of like on stills. Eso the first living quarters would be on the first one would be above the first floor on stills, you know, And then above that were two units. So each section of the building had four families and the total bill and had 12 families.

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So just like an apartment building. Almost sort of. Yes. Yes. Pretty. It was an apartment building. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you said you had a number of siblings? Um, yes, we were seven altogether. My eldest brother was born in 1940 eso. My last brother was born in 1957.

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So Wow, that's why 17 years off s Did you did you share rooms? Yes. We shared rooms. We had thes apartment, had one thio kitchen to sleeping areas. Then what was considered living room, which had to be converted to sleeping area, too. Because on although I'm from a family of seven siblings on nine altogether, my parents we were in the largest family in town.

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I mean, families larger than our Okay, um, So as you were going through school, did you kind of have an idea what you wanted to do later on? Or maybe not. I'm thinking, you know, once you got older you know, kind of approaching your teenage years.

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Yeah, not really. In terms of career? No. My father, besides working for the Panama Canal Company, um, also was the only opposed from man in town. He had his own shop around the house. He he upholstered furniture and cars. Um, and that's how he supplemented this Panama Canal income and a skids.

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You know, of course, I worked with him. And But I knew even then that that's not what I wanted to do, you know? So, um, I was very good with mechanical drawing in high school. I thought I would want to get into architecture or something like that, you know, although I didn't have a great love for math s Oh, my first year out of high school, um, I went straight to night school to take math, improve my maths skill, and that was Was that a local community?

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I'm wondering what kind of higher education there waas there? Well, a time you could go toe night school, which would be comparable to an adult school here in the US, But there was also a junior college that existed from in the fort. Is one was it was called normal school.

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They trained people to be teachers in their school. I don't think I had an ambition in that area, but I knew quite a few people who had gone through that. Some of them became my teachers to, um But there was, yes, Junior college. Start off, um, that you could go onto.

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And then quite a few students from my era got scholarships to come to us to the United States to study. So quite a few people came here. There was also the University of Panama. Uh, that was in existence at that time, too. But there was opportunities for higher education for somebody who wanted to go on academically.

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And so, if you would say, wanted to go to the university that was in Panama City, Was that where was you would have just paid the same rate as everybody else? Yes, it was very inexpensive. Almost almost free is really even even today. It's very inexpensive to attend the University of Panama.

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Now they're private universities in Panama. A little more a little more costly, but the university, But for me, growing up in a kind of his own, um, my my brother, for instance. He went on toe Canal Zone Junior College s O. And he was always interested in the sciences and kind of stuff.

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So he ended up working for they called a research unit in Panama. Yeah, but the opportunities for yeah, for further education we're there. Yeah, okay. And so then, um, you said you went to the night school for for a while, so I did that. You're mad skills that improve my maths skills.

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And then, um, again, the Panamanian government made some changes in the canal zone because, like I said earlier, there was no opportunities for silver. Great employees, bond, Children. I mean, a lot of jobs were locked up, and they're being called security positions. But by that time, a lot of that started to open up.

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And the Panamanian government negotiated where U s had to train a minimum of 25 apprentices every year in the different trades. So in 1963 I've got into the the apprenticeship program as a marine pipefitter. Andi, I went through that program. Did you have to compete with other individuals to get into the program?

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Yes. Yes. There were tests given an aural interviews that you had to pass. Toby accepted to be one of the The Apprentice is that program? Brother started around 1960 and I like I said, I got it in 1963. Andi, I have two other brothers who also completed one as a plumber and the other one as, uh, electric motor repair man.

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Yeah. Okay. And how long did the program last for? It's a four year program. Oh, wow. It's a college education. Zits accepted for two years of college credits. Now, because there were subjects. I mean, trade algebra. Uh, physics. There was a lot of we studied, uh, metallurgy, behavior, medals and classifications of medals.

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So it was a wide range of matter of fact. I think that apprenticeship the Panama Canal apprenticeship program is second worldwide Onley One program, one in Germany. Yeah, Yeah. In your instructors, Were they Panamanian US citizens? When I went through, they were all U S. Citizens.

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Later on, there were some Panamanians I think that got in his instructors. But at the time that I went, it was strictly us employees. Okay. Okay. Um, four years. That's kind of a while. Does anything stand out about those four years that comes to memory in your interactions with the other students or the teachers, or just anything generally, Yeah, I learned early on in the program that the students who weren't students from the Canal Zone school students who went to school in Panama City they were much stronger in the sciences, math and anything to do with physics trade.

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They were much stronger, as a matter of fact, because it wasn't. I can't say it wasn't competitive, but it really wasn't. I mean, those guys were really helpful to us. The canals, Canal zone students who were weaker in these subjects. And they helped us tremendously to get through the program because in that program you're allowed, I think one failure of a class you could repeat it a fallen year.

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But if you didn't pass it them, you were kicked out of the program and a lot of the help. That's what I remember Mostly A lot of help in the science is that I got and quite a few of my friends who went school in the Canal Zone came from students in Panama City, which indicated to me that the school system in Panama City was much stronger in terms of math on sciences in general.

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Yeah. Why do you think that was kind of this difference between the strengths and their programs? I am not sure if it's maybe the emphasis that they placed on these subjects. A supposed No. We had pretty good math teachers and stuff like that. But for some reason, the students in Panama City or a lot stronger matter of fact, later years.

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One of my daughters, Kim so California. And she attended junior college class. One day she was this year temporary. And she attended a junior college class and she came home and told me that the stuff that they were getting there she was getting in high school.

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And this was junior college. Here s Oh, yeah, I think the schools in Panama City they've always been very strong in the sciences and particularly math. Okay. Okay. So once you completed the training program, what was your first job after that? Actually, by the time I completed program, I came to the States.

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Oh, really? I worked. Uh oh, yeah, right. That makes sense. I'm looking at the numbers now that I've been writing. Yeah, I work in in San Francisco off in ship repair. Okay, Um, and then I worked in Oakland, California, with a company that was building tuna boats.

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So we and what I found was that when I came here, I thought that the the equipment made job so much easier to me. It was amazing how easy it was toe work. Um, here in the States, because of the equipment they add on, I guess the training we had was so good that I have no difficulty adapting toe working.

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Okay, here. What prompted the move was there was there just not opportunity there or no, I just always knew that I couldn't stay my experience working as an apprentice in the canal zone. Um, sort of solid defined my my intent to get out because the racial thing was still there was to me, it was very strong.

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Um, the opportunities for progression weren't being given. Thio us Panamanians who went through these programs, um, on and but our apprentices who came through these programs, these guys were very, very skilled. I mean, most of my friendship was I was taught by fellow apprentices who had gone through the program before.

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I did s o the lack of off opportunity for advancement sort of embittered me in a way because I just knew that I was I couldn't e couldn't stay. I mean, a lot of people stayed and did well, too. I mean, I probably would have done what if I stayed, too, But emotionally, I think it would have been just too much for me.

00:37:46.540 - 00:38:05.140

Thio stay. And so I got eso was I guess, some of the racial friction. Was it just between three US citizens and the folks from the Caribbean or then the Panamanians? Tua's well, because you've got kind of three different groups, right? Well, there were there were working in the house, and of course it was.

00:38:05.150 - 00:38:30.060

It was mostly between us. The workers off Caribbean ancestry on the U. S. Uh, workers are supervisors because they were primarily the ones who in supervisor positions. But, yes, there was there was conflict that took place over the years in with Panamanian side and us. But that really wasn't the same was two different issues, actually.

00:38:30.070 - 00:38:52.040

Yeah. Okay, um and so California. How did you find out about the job there. I'm just kind of I mean, because you could have gone presumably anywhere. Well, that bills. While I was working early on in my friendship, I had been to New York there, E no, I didn't want to live there.

00:38:52.590 - 00:39:15.530

And also, I decided to try the West Coast, and I I went out and I realized it. And and I decided that would go back from London, Migrate legally come from here on at the time. Uh, immigration had a schedule of jobs that were needed in the United States.

00:39:15.540 - 00:39:39.040

Eso Based on that. You could apply for residents a songs. You can prove that you're journeymen in this particular field on. That's what I did. I I came here based on the need for my type of work. Okay, so it was a high demand fields, So yeah, OK, e am kind of curious.

00:39:39.040 - 00:40:02.710

So, marine pipe fitting. I don't really know anything about that. Maybe for the lay person, you could just kind of explain what that was exactly. Well, um, just think of a plumber. Plumber handles primarily piping and residential or commercial buildings. Well, a pipefitter does the same thing basically, on ships the Marine pipefitter would do it on any kind of watercraft, you know?

00:40:02.720 - 00:40:37.950

So it's basically the same thing. Pipe systems I've worked on building tuna boats, installing refrigeration system I worked on Oh, what they call a submarine rescue vessel, Andi. They had life support systems that had to be installed and then maintained by flushing because these lines carried oxygen's eso they needed to be to maintain, to be sure that there was no no contamination.

00:40:37.960 - 00:41:12.630

So it's much more than, say, sanitation kind. It's a very different Okay, exactly. It's Yeah. Yeah, it's steam systems s. Oh, yeah, it's any kind of piping in. Call it the the comfortably big compared to your veins. You know, Carrie, Carrie, different kinds of systems. So pipe fitting is basically to may for the lay person does think of a plumber marine pipefitter with a plumber works on watercraft, you know.

00:41:12.610 - 00:41:32.090

Okay. Okay. Oh, that's good. That's a very distinct way of putting it. Thank you. On dso how long did you stay in California? For? A long time after the Adam. Yes. I stayed in California for almost 40 years. Um, I didn't save her long working as a pipe fitter.

00:41:32.090 - 00:41:56.780

I fund that I needed benefits, which were first of all, I worked through the unions in California, which was pretty good. Uh, but I wanted employment that had a lot more benefits because having a family. And so I ended up working for Pacific Gas and Electric Company.

00:41:56.790 - 00:42:15.020

It was the largest utility company in, uh, Northern California. And so I worked there for 23 years, and that's where I retired. Uh um, when you were working at the previous job, was that your first experience with a union? Did they have unions in the ground and canals?

00:42:15.020 - 00:42:41.660

All we had unions and on That's what made it easy for me to get employment when I went to California because I went with of letters from the Union in Panama, which then was the A f l c e o. I took that with me. So the union in San Francisco I was given employment right away.

00:42:41.660 - 00:43:05.740

Of course, I had to take a test there, and after that, I I got a job quite easily, I believe, because of, uh, the strength of unions. I mean, I think unions war wide at the time anyhow, was very effective in a very strong group to belong to.

00:43:05.750 - 00:43:24.590

Yeah, Yeah. But you said that with that job, there weren't any benefits. There wasn't any health insurance, retirement or anything like nothing. A long term. You could Yeah, you know, some hospitalization. But I wanted a long term benefits. I needed hospitalization because of having Children. I needed to be sure I had that covered.

00:43:24.590 - 00:43:44.960

So but I I really enjoyed the physical part of the job. But I needed to look at what? The benefits. And so I took a considerable cut in pay. Thio, leave that field. Yeah. Okay, so, So lower wage, But better benefits was kind of a more on more long term employment.

00:43:44.970 - 00:44:00.510

A supposed work and sort of like contracts and then going back to Union Hall. I OK, short term kind of things. Eso your wife? Did you meet her? Was it in Panama and Panama? Okay, So you both came. You came over together? No, she came before I did.

00:44:00.520 - 00:44:17.750

Told me about it, and that's when I went to California. Really? Yeah. And what was she? What was she doing in California? Just studying, working and studying, and then She eventually always wanted to be in there. So she went on, became a nurse, and so Yeah, okay.

00:44:17.760 - 00:44:36.480

But that that was the reason that I got curious about going to California. Okay, so she she kind of led the way in some ways. On Do you said you stayed there for 23 years with that with the company, that company. And that was in California as well.

00:44:36.490 - 00:45:01.340

In California. I work. The company retired from my work for them for 23 years, but I was in California from 68 2 2000. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And then after that, you moved. I moved to South Florida. South Florida. Yeah. And what prompted that? Did you have family in South Florida?

00:45:01.350 - 00:45:28.180

No, I have no family here. I came to South Florida after my wife passed away in 1986. And after I was here 14 years after that and uh huh, reconnected with my present wife. Said reconnected because I knew her from before in Panama on. Yeah. So we met coincidental itself in Panama, and I eventually came here.

00:45:28.190 - 00:45:51.890

Okay. Yeah. Do you frequently go Go back? Yes, I go. Every year I go to Panama. I used to go maybe three or four times a year with after my mother passed away. Yeah, basically, I go once or twice, sometimes that year. Yeah. OK, what is kind of some of the changes that you've noticed over time since since you left, I guess in the sixties.

00:45:51.890 - 00:46:12.910

And since you've been kind of going back since then, I know that's a long period of, you know, but yeah, the the most impactful changes a complete turn over of the Panama Canal Thio Panama. And it's, um mm. Yeah, it's for May. It's a big change to see.

00:46:13.480 - 00:46:37.620

Um, Panamanian is running. Everything I mean is the the When I was growing up, like I said, there was certain jobs we couldn't get. And now to see that we're capable, Onda, we always were, because I think the schools, particularly in Panama City, train them. The students were were prepared, you know?

00:46:37.710 - 00:46:59.000

So I believe that even in my time they were, um, they would have been ableto handle. They put him out of operations. Did most of the workers who came over initially or of Caribbean descent did they stay on in Panama? Or did they kind of some of them go like you did Or how did that work did become more integrated, I guess.

00:46:59.380 - 00:47:22.550

Well, you talk about the offspring of the one. Yes, yes. Um, yeah, I would say, Well, now it's more than 50 50 that have left. But again, when I was growing up, very few left because you needed somebody in the United States. The sponsor. You need to have a relative with somebody here, sponsor your migration to the United States.

00:47:22.560 - 00:47:51.990

Not too many of us had that now. In the early fifties, during the Korean War, Panamanians living Canal zone, even though they weren't U S citizens, they were allowed to sign up to be in the US Army. So there was quite a few people who were inducted in Panama and they joined US Army during that Korean period.

00:47:52.580 - 00:48:21.420

And so the ones that stayed, they became the vehicle to sponsor relatives that wanted to come to the state so that that was one of the the the factors, really, that helped a lot of families have the opportunity to my great United States. Because then you know, one would come and then maybe Inter Marie and more and more people that opportunities come because of having connections here in the United States.

00:48:21.430 - 00:48:44.600

But like I said when I was very young, that was very few and far between that we would have people who are relatives who lived in the United States now, some men who became merchant seaman years ago. I'm talking about maybe 19 forties. Ah, lot of those men who eventually ended up in United States.

00:48:44.610 - 00:49:10.410

They were able to sponsor read ITU's in Panama. But like I say, there were very few so that that provided that period of time really, to me, was the biggest opportunity. Really for for people like myself to be able to come to the States, I personally didn't have any relatives live in the United States.

00:49:10.420 - 00:49:33.620

Uh, was until sixties sometime I had an uncle that migrated to the United States. Okay, on my migration really was like I told you already was based on employment. Wasn't because of a relative here who could sponsor me. Okay. And then you still have family in the West Indies in the Caribbean to at this time, did you stay in contact with any of them?

00:49:33.620 - 00:50:02.450

not that I know of. I never knew any of my grand parents relatives in Jamaica or Barbados. I'm sure. You know, one could probably trace on find family members in these places, but I never have been able to do that. Okay. Okay. Um, and Gamboa, Um, is it still a city?

00:50:02.450 - 00:50:30.770

Is it? Did they abandon it? No, it's still It's still, uh, a town. It's owned by the Panamanian government. And, um, yeah, people still reside. There are quite a big part of the town, is now run by the Smithsonian Institute. They have some botanical projects in that area.

00:50:31.660 - 00:50:49.830

Onda. Apparently, they're even acquiring them. Larger portions of of the town for whatever that project is. I'm not sure what it is, but I see the science when I go back where the Smithsonian Institute has bean. Probably I don't there, bought or leased from Panamanian government.

00:50:49.840 - 00:51:14.000

But anyhow, they're conducting quite an operation down there. They always have not particular in that town, but they've always had some botanical projects off off the coast. There's an island called Barbara Colorado from I was a kid was there, and I know that was Smith's onion operation.

00:51:14.000 - 00:51:36.770

down there. Okay, um, in your siblings did did a number of them also eventually come to the U. S. Or did they say in Panama of the seven of us suddenly to reside in Panama? Now, um, one of my younger brothers who, like I said it was, was an apprentice at one point, any a graduate of the German plumber?

00:51:37.360 - 00:52:03.770

Um, my elder brother went to New York and ended up working with a hard team at ST Francis Hospital in New York. A Z what they call a profusion ist these guys operated heart machine that takes over for your heart while they're doing okay. Yeah, my one of my sisters.

00:52:04.450 - 00:52:33.940

She went to University of Washington in Seattle and she retired from King County. Is, I think, a budget analysts or something for the King Kong and Washington State. My younger sister also migrated to California. She graduated from University Sacramento on, and she retired to from, um, head of a program called Kids Country.

00:52:33.940 - 00:52:53.880

And then they had on campus site care for kids whose parents had to goto work in the morning to drop them up before enough school programs. Eso they she here on that program. Um, my youngest brother will also venue from friendship. He now lives in Maryland.

00:52:54.650 - 00:53:22.350

And you worked for the medical office there? Yeah. So pretty far dispersed. It sounds like, you know, not everybody settled in the same. No, we were quite spread out. Okay, that's interesting. Um, I'm curious. So when you were in the United States, I guess during the seventies and the eighties, I guess there was a big, big push in Panama for sovereignty.

00:53:22.360 - 00:53:42.250

Ondas being someone who had lived there and kind of seeing, I guess, the newspaper accounts and things like that. What was your impression of what was going on back there? I guess. Were you been paying attention? Yeah, I thought it was. It was long overdue in the seventies.

00:53:42.260 - 00:54:18.740

Yeah, it wasn't until the inn is when when Panama was invaded, supposedly to remove Manuel Noriega from office. Well, not obviously with military general that took over the country at some point. Um, that was an interesting time. Um, because before he was in power, there was a military general.

00:54:18.740 - 00:54:45.900

Also e the name of Walmart Oreos who signed, treated with Carter to turn over the Panama Canal. to Panama by the end of 1999? No. Although he was a military general, too. Um, he was able to negotiate this turnover with the U. S. Which I've never heard Reason Azan issue.

00:54:45.900 - 00:55:12.610

But I've always wondered since he was not a democratically elected president in a country that is a democratically democracy, he overthrew a democratically elected president and run the country. I must say, very effectively because I think there was more progress under his rule than under all the democratically elected president that I know of Panama.

00:55:12.620 - 00:55:36.280

But nevertheless, it was a military takeover. It was not a democratically elected. So when this treaty was signed with Carter, I always thought that there was a loophole because of the fact that this man was not a democratically e, you know, it would be invalidated. Yeah, but it's never, never has been challenged.

00:55:36.280 - 00:56:09.240

And, of course, the eternal took place. Um, And after he died, uh, in a plane crash, mysteriously. But anyway, that's when, uh, Manuel Noriega took over. And so for me, your question was about the turmoil in Panama. To me, that was the most, uh, impactful thing that I paid attention Teoh is the invasion off Panama to remove one man.

00:56:10.510 - 00:56:27.450

And the destruction that was caused on the area in which a love instruction took place is an area I'm very familiar with because my father grew up in that area. Is uncle lived there at one point and there was no military is right in that area.

00:56:27.460 - 00:57:00.910

There were mostly poor people of Caribbean descent live in that area. And the stealth bomber was used for the first thing I have in Pama where there is no no air force, no kind of threat along that line, you know, so that to me, since I look back at the events in Panama, to me, that was the most impactful because, you know, I know the layout, and I know so until today, I still have questions in my mind.

00:57:00.920 - 00:57:18.100

Were you in contact with any of the people living in that area that you said that your attack? No, no. In that area and know because my relatives that long moved out of that area. Yeah, but what I find interesting too is that, like you say, you asked me if I wasn't something with anybody.

00:57:18.100 - 00:57:41.890

Now not only wasn't I in contact but of all the people. And I know a lot of people. Nobody's ever told me that they have a relative who was affected by this on bond. It just seems so mysterious to me, that whole a whole thing. But like I say, there is an area member familiar with.

00:57:41.900 - 00:58:10.370

Since then, they've rebuilt a lot of structures there. But as far as the people that were affected by that invasion, I I am is a very little less no. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, um, trying to think of any other questions you mentioned that your father was doing who's had his own business doing upholstery and things like that.

00:58:10.370 - 00:58:32.310

And you mentioned that he did that in cars. I was wondering, what was the transportation like back then? Was did a lot of people have cars or No, no, that not, um, silver quote unquote employees. USCs most of the U. S. Resident in the canal zone.

00:58:32.320 - 00:58:53.780

Yeah, s so you could drive around the canal zone. But maybe not out anywhere else or I'm way had bus. I mean, it was bus and train transportation. I commuted toe high school early on in Busses. Their school bus is on. Then we later commuted When the high school ball we committed by train so we could walk the train station.

00:58:53.790 - 00:59:11.970

Dick train goes, go to school. Um, my people had cars. This wasn't a lot of people that had No, I mean, today, of course, is different. Everybody's garbage. A day that time? No, I was just thinking that probably wasn't necessarily an interstate. So I guess they have to just use the cars locally made.

00:59:11.980 - 00:59:31.760

That's what I was. There was No. There's one main highway that we run from Panama City down to our tongue. Gum. What was the end of the line there? Um, two lane road, you know, Um, yeah, but no, my dad, because he did both automobiles and furniture.

00:59:32.530 - 00:59:52.270

And you you always had at work. I mean, as faras. Yeah, that's side job doing upholstery on. He was the only one that did upholstery within, I'd say because the next closest art was eight miles away. And I don't know anybody did the poster in that town either.

00:59:52.280 - 01:00:10.160

So, pretty much all anything I've been to do with upholstery. Yeah. Now the furniture there was it. It's kind of a wet environment, isn't it? Kind of kind of damp. So it was that maybe one of the reasons or people just just were replacing old stuff with new stuff.

01:00:10.160 - 01:00:27.870

Or did you need Was there a lot of turnover? I guess I'm saying in the furniture, you know, did it get no repair repair? Yeah. Most people, mostly us and most of his business came from U. S citizens who are living in Panama. They wanted toe re oppose your furniture and so just normal wear and tear.

01:00:27.880 - 01:00:58.820

It didn't have anything to do with climate or anything. No, no, no, no. I'm not doing anything. And it worked. That was affected by climate. Now, uh, drapery, that kind of thing. He did thio Great. Pre. Like I said, automobiles on furniture. You? Yeah, yeah, yeah, But going back toe Gamboa was was like I say, the only town that had that split off citizens agree.

01:00:59.210 - 01:01:43.760

And it was for us. It was a very happy, um of childhood, um, and the influences off community leaders And what not having that, um, Caribbean background and, of course, British influence. It was very, very great. I wouldn't trade that childhood for anything, the values that we were taught and ethics was so strong and the community spirit because of living in a sort of an isolated community because we were at the end of that main highway to me.

01:01:43.760 - 01:02:11.020

But we were across the Chagres River. It was one bridge, one way to get into town. And for some reason, the town of Gamboa slash Santa Cruz was was a tight, very tight knit community. Even today, because even the office, our offspring, I feel a closeness that eyes pervasive even today, you know.

01:02:13.200 - 01:02:37.090

Okay, Um, so this is kind of e guess, uh, stereotype, maybe of the era, But you didn't. Didn't necessarily need to lock your doors or you trusted your neighbors, that kind of thing. You know, you're saying the community was very close knit, very close knit, no crime that I can think of No crime, no crime.

01:02:37.090 - 01:02:56.820

I can't remember any particular incidents. Even though, you know, the canal zone government that there was a prison system, there was, you know, the court system and whatnot. And there were guys that were incarcerated. I mean, for maybe petty for, um, one of the things they we used to call it.

01:02:58.900 - 01:03:23.410

It was another word for trespassing, but anyhow, the canal zone area. No, not loitering, Really. It was people that that had gotten involved felons or whatnot on. They were barred from being in the canal zone area E s, Panama, the Panamanian territory. But if they were caught in the area, they were re incarcerated.

01:03:23.410 - 01:03:48.610

So how they've been banned. Yeah, eso. But like you say, as far as trust and peaceful and no fear of of any kind of crime, that was the kind of town we had. We had Boy Scouts, which was we had marching bands. Um um, Girl scouts were there.

01:03:48.620 - 01:04:11.620

Um, of course, team sports, always. We always had a team, community, team, sports, softball, baseball, cricket, soccer. Uh, did you do a lot of camping with the Boy Scouts? I did. E must have been quite an experience. I mean, you went out into the jungles, I presume?

01:04:11.630 - 01:04:32.030

Yes, some, but, you know, looking back at it now, like, for instance, are in town. It's called the Rainforest. I mean, it's good we didn't term. Rainforest wasn't even used. I mean, you know, but it was there a thick jungle right behind where? But we never Probably That's such, you know, we would go out in the hills.

01:04:32.030 - 01:04:49.510

I mean, it was no big deal. I think it was after a Jurassic Park. You start hearing all this about rainforests and all this stuff, you know? But what Panama is, that's Padma is where they trained. Oh, Special Forces, U S Army Special Forces that we're going to Vietnam on those places.

01:04:49.520 - 01:05:04.640

They were training in the jungle school in Pama. Survival training stuff took place there because of the type forestry we have their, you know, But I could say a lot of these things on terminology. It's applied the areas where we grew up. We never thought about that.

01:05:05.210 - 01:05:29.840

Did you have any interesting experiences with wildlife Or not particularly, I mean, we saw a lot of things, but like I said, when you grow up with it is just there. It's just write a second nature. Yeah, it's not okay, you know? Okay, um, while is there anything else that you would like to discuss or mention that I may have left out?

01:05:29.850 - 01:06:06.560

Well, one of the things is I'm involved right now. with a project with other people from my community were trying to launch a website. Um, hopefully by September. And the focus is on the history of our town. We use the word gambo even though the word the town is spelled Gamboa g m b a way say gamble because that's the way the West Indian dialectic pronounce the word.

01:06:06.570 - 01:06:32.220

And so we use that on, um, we feel that ah, lot of the history even know that you're celebrating that 100 year anniversary of Panama Canal. Ah, lot of the history having to do with the laborers who actually came from the West Indies and working about has been left out either left out not being told whatever.

01:06:32.230 - 01:06:56.540

But we feel that a town that we had it was so unique in a lot of ways that we want to preserve that. And so right now we're doing this project trying to gather as much history as we can. Um, in front. Last February, we did these, uh, video interviews with about seven off former residents off that town.

01:06:56.550 - 01:07:17.130

They were all in their nineties. Matter of fact, one of them was 97 years old. His name is Cornelius Gilling on? He passed away about a month after we did interview with. So it's really on exciting project. And like I said, the goal is to tell the story of our town.

01:07:17.680 - 01:07:51.050

Andi, I think that the uniqueness comes from the way the town was isolated on the fact that it was tell that hosted both us and, uh, West Indian. Uh, workers are migrant workers in the same town. So, um, that's what I'm involved in now. And I'm hoping that were ableto thio not only do the website, but now that I'm up here, I'm hoping that we can also How's that as part of the Panama Canal?

01:07:51.310 - 01:08:13.810

Uh, museums effort to thio Depict what? Tama on the Panama Canal Zone history was like because I think too much of that has been left out. Yeah. Now there is. I don't know how involved you are with the with the museum. Not a whole lot. Honestly, there's something I'll show you.

01:08:13.820 - 01:08:37.460

Yeah, that'd be great. Okay. All right. Well, if you didn't have any further points you want to discuss, I guess we'll just in the interview there. Yes. I really enjoyed speaking with you. Yes, I enjoy doing it, Thio. Like one of the things that we see on our website is that we owe a large death a gratitude to those West Indians who came to Panama.

01:08:37.470 - 01:08:57.320

Uh, some of them are grand parents, but just in general, those guys brought such a strong ethic and culture that has really influenced most of our lives. People who were born in forties like myself. All right, well, thank you so much. Thank you.