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Good morning. My name is Britney Mania. It is july 4th, 2000 and 15. We are with Mr Bill Morrison with the Panama Canal Society here in Orlando. Um, Mr Morrison, I would like to start off with your place and date of birth. Summit New Jersey. And that was April 10th, 1960.

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Okay, um, So how did you end up connected to the Panama Canal? My dad was with Exxon, actually. Technically, it's S O. And he was working in a refinery in New Jersey, so I was there the first three years of my life. Then he moved to Miami and was in the Coral Gables office.

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And they did international operations there. And we were in Miami four years and then moved to Panama, 1967. Okay, um, do you have any recollection, Um, of your first experience in Panama, First experience? Um, yeah. Second grade. There is a friend of mine I still keep in touch with today from second grade, and we got to be pretty good friends.

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Um, mhm. Johnny Mazzetti used to go to his house and eat dad, and, uh, the weird way pancakes today is a result of that things of that nature that I remember from second grade and I went to Bob Elementary School, and I still remember that. So I went to from second to sixth grade Elementary.

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Okay. Can you tell me a little bit about your dad's job in Panama on what was it that he did there? He was with Esso Marine Supply, and he provided gas to a lot of the military bases. That contract was in place, actually before he got there.

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So he assumed that he also provided fuels and lubricants to ships that went through the canal. Okay, so he provided anything from various types of oil to various types of lubricants, and he had a couple of other. He was involved, actually, the pipeline to win across the isthmus near Costa Rica.

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That's pretty cool. Yeah. Did you ever get to see her? That work? Yes. Because his office is right below our house is very unique situation. The whole upstairs. It was duplex that we took over because there were five kids in our family, and so his office was downstairs and it was just one large building.

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Involve Oh, Okay. Um, do you remember what year. That was that. You guys migrated to Panama? Uh, 67. My dad went down there for six months prior to us moving. So he was there to get familiar with things, set up the help set up the office and so forth, or take over the office, I should say.

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And your mother? What did she do? Uh, she Well, I say she didn't work, but she actually took over a lot of volunteer organizations. Uh, she was the first American president of the Inter American Woman's Club, which is both Panamanian women and American women. That was at least 125 membership, if not more.

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She was at one point. I guess that was a paying job. Executive director of the Girl Scouts down there. My dad was very heavily involved in Boy Scouts as well. So my brother and I were both, uh, Eagle Scouts down there. So, uh, but to answer your question, she was involved.

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Mostly is, I guess, a housewife. But she had a lot of other things going on sometimes in conjunction with my dad with Boy Scout activities. Okay. And when your family arrived, and when you got to see Panama. What was you guys' reaction? Um, for us, I guess for me being younger, it was probably I was, I guess I adapted a little bit better.

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My sisters were in high school, so for them, it was a big change from being a high school in Miami coming down there. But they did make a lot of friends pretty quickly for me, though. I thought it was pretty close knit community made some friends again, some of which I still keep up with today.

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And just you kind of made your own things. I mean, the TV was 10 years behind the states, things like that. So we were always out going to the beach or doing something else. Okay? And when your family arrived there, how was your relationship with the other zone?

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Ian's where they're welcoming. Or was it something that you had to slowly integrate yourself into the community? I think for the most part, they were pretty welcoming, and my dad got involved in a lot of civic activities. Um, he was involved, As I said in Boy Scouts, Navy League.

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Um, he did other things with United way, so that probably helped grease the skids, if you will, and integrate us a little more quickly. Uh huh. Um, as far as the education that you received over there, um what what is the most natural thing about going to school there?

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Um, the schools were pretty good. We had heard somewhere that they were supposed to be in the top 10% of public schools because the teachers were a little bit better paid, were able to take advanced math classes, for example, calculus as a senior. So it was also walking distance from my house, so that was convenient.

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Oh, really? The only time I took a bus was in junior high school, which was a little bit further away. Uh huh. And actually, my elementary school in my high school were very close to each other. But in terms of are you talking about classes or just social?

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More of the social aspect. Mm. Mhm social aspect. It was, I'd say, pretty typical. High school, a lot of sports track, baseball, football. I was involved in football. Um, we started a rugby team down there, Uh, in terms of other social, we just We had a pretty good sized high school is about a little over 400 graduating class.

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So good size from 10th to 12th total of about, maybe close to 1500 to okay, students. So it's good. So I'd say what four a. Is the classification up here? Um, so you said that you arrived there in the second grade. You started second grade in Panama.

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Um, did you get to go all throughout high school? You did? Yeah. I graduated from high school there. Okay. Um, what were some of your experiences? I guess middle school and high school. What? We're kind of some of the things that those age groups did in Panama.

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Um, the experiences were went to the beach quite a bit. Uh, nice beaches about the best beaches were about an hour away. There were something that were closer, like on the military basis. But usually we went more into the interior Panama for those beaches sports, you know, Friday night football games again, somewhat typical of some high schools here, and, uh, just like, I guess, like any other high school you had certain groups that you hung out with.

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We got to know a lot of people Since It was a small community. So if I didn't hang out with this group, I knew of them or knew knew them. Uh, and some of which has redeveloped over the course of these reunions. Like guys I didn't hang out with in high school.

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I still see here, and I chat with them quite a bit somewhere on my football team, somewhere affiliated in other ways. Um, so I want to talk about language. How fluid were you at your prime in Spanish? I was probably, um, not completely fluent, but fairly close.

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And I maintain an accent, so people sometimes think I know more Spanish than I do. But I guess that was a point later in life that I wasn't fluid, and that was, you know, something I'm actually working. Correct. Okay, Um, and and during your youth, uh, learning Spanish.

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Was that something that happened in school, or was that something that happened outside in your environment? Both. I think because in school you're you know, you're saying Okay, this guy is going to the library, but you never use that out in the interior when you're at the beach and you're buying stuff.

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So, um we learned it that way. We learn not slang, but just more conversational Spanish. Um, And did you end up having Panamanian friends where you were able to refine your Spanish speaking skills with the people around you? Or was it something more that you used when you went into the city into Panama?

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Um, I'd say a little bit of both, but it was more used, probably outside school, but yeah, we took Spanish classes in school, and we had a lot of Panamanian friends because it was a good school who attended our high school. Um, what are some of your most memorable, memorable experiences?

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I know you talked about the beach. Um, well, we're kind of the other things that you were able to experience outside of the zone inside of Panama. Um, I'd say so. A lot of my Boy Scout experiences going into the deep jungle, looking at a lot of the floor in front of the rainforest jungle.

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Whatever you wanna call it. We did that almost every Easter that Easter break. We did a 50 mile hike taking up this six or seven days. So jungle hammocks the whole nine yards. Uh, let's see encountered, um, various local Indian tribes in the jungle. Some of them who helped with carrying our gear.

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Uh, we, the Choco Indians grimy, Mhm. There's one of their tribe on missing. Um, but we got to meet them in their environment as well. Uh, sometimes we kill some wild animals to supplement our food. Wild turkey, wild paid one time. Also got a chance to hike to the top of L Baru, which is near the Costa Rican border.

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It's close to 11,000 ft. Um, let's see a lot of hiking along the Campana and some of the other smaller mountains around Panama. Uh, so I was lucky, and I got a chance to go pretty much all over the country. And then when the pipeline was being built, we got a chance to go to Puerto Moya's way up where they brought the supertankers down from Alaska, offload the crude first before the pipeline was built and offload the crude.

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Put it on the eight smaller ships 7800 ft. Then those will go through the canal before the pipeline was built. So I got a chance to go there. Boquete Cheeky coffee plantation, banana plantation. Got to see some of the strawberries and oranges and where they were growing up there.

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I miss those quite a bit. What is what is that you miss? About those? Uh, the freshness. The oranges are the size of a grapefruit. Um, in Boquete. They're very sweet. I missed the coffee. You know, cause coughing the U. S is very different. Um, and just, uh, you know, you got to experience a lot of the native foods.

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I still like the cuisine from Panama, uh, data cones and, you know, arroz con boyo and some of the other dishes that we grew up with. So there was a nice blend, I think you in the canal zone. You had a choice. Whether you were more in the canal zone or, uh, some of us who just went and did things throughout the country.

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There are some very unique experiences, Like going to the French cut, um, where the French first started building the canal. And that was a place kind of a local swimming hole, if you will. So that was kind of unique to that's interesting. So I want to talk to you a little bit more about your Boy Scout experience because I imagine, you know, growing up in Panama and having that organization in Panama, there had been a difference between a Boy Scout experience there and in the United States, and playing into that your parents were actually in charge of all of that.

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So I wanted to ask you my question is, um how do you think those boys Boy Scout experiences differ from the one that you experienced then in Panama. So the American one that most art, um, most boy Scouts will experience here. I guess one of the one of the differences was that we got a chance to go to some jam what they call jamborees, which are large, uh, national or international, uh, groups that get together, like every four years.

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I got my brother and my dad got a chance to go to one in Idaho with scouts from all over the country, as well as some from different countries. And then I got a chance to go to one in Pennsylvania when I was old enough, and I also went to an international jamboree down in Suriname, in South America.

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So that was a joint, um uh, joint group because it was Panamanian Boy Scouts as well as us boy scouts or canal Zone. Boy Scouts, if you will, Um, how was how will those kinds of relationships between the Panamanians, maybe the Panamanian Boy Scouts and the American Boy Scouts was it something that was normal?

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Mhm. Um, we did some things with the Panamanian scouts. That was probably one of the more significant ones. Uh, we did some, uh, a minor what we call a Campari where we would do, like different crafts or something like that with some of the Panamanian scouts.

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It wasn't as integrated as probably We could have had it over the years, but there was no, I think more of a healthy competition versus, like, animosity or something like that. But, you know, we were at an age where we were more, I guess, trusting and so forth with with the scouting experience.

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Okay, Um, can you talk to me a little bit about your experience the first time you saw real Indians? Um, trying to think it was pretty. It was pretty young. I mean, we saw pictures before. Sometimes we actually saw them in the jungle. Um So it wasn't that big of a shock or a difference, but they were.

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You know, we actually use some of the Indians to help us build like the bow heroes and stuff that we use for Camp Aries or displays Uhh. Very different because they only wore I remember this. They wore a string around their calf which they said prevented cramps, para shorts and that was it.

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No shoes, no shirt. They just carry the backpacks 60 £70 because it had our pots and pans and stuff in there, um, and just, you know, pretty friendly. I mean, we were able to communicate with them, and we had some a couple of guys who were translators.

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So in addition to the Boy Scout leaders, we had usually want to. Guy's name is men. I still remember that he was able to translate with the Indians and talk and so forth, especially when one of the wild pigs we killed turned out to be one of the local Indians.

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So we smoothed that over, you know, and gave them compensation for that. But, you know, it ran through our camp at night, so we didn't know. Um, so you said that there were two kinds of people that grew up in the zone. You said there were the zone Ian's, that they like to stay in the zone and there were other people that like to explore.

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What do you think, um, attributed to your exploration Besides your scout experience, I think you know, there was probably a very small population among the younger crowd that didn't venture out too much because really, the zone was pretty limited in terms of restaurants and things of that nature.

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So if you wanted to go to a nice restaurant, you went into Panama City. A lot of different types of restaurants. If you wanted to go to a nice beach, you went to the interior or various other places. So I think it was just a lot of the people that you hung out with.

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I don't think anybody felt constricted going into Panama except when there were certain tensions. Or, you know, certain things going on, you know, like during the treaty or with the issue with Noriega or something like that. Then there were tensions, and you have to be a little more on the cautious side.

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Okay, Um, I understand. At some point, there was an invasion where you did to experience that. No, I wasn't. Some friends of mine were okay. Um mm. Interesting. Because, girl I dated in high schools. Everybody had a quote unquote safe house. So they were, you know, she said Okay.

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She was given instructions. You have two hours to get to your safe house in the canal zone. So does she packed everything. Not knowing whether she'd see everything again. Um, but where Noriega's, uh, boat was parked was down the street from my house and kind of around the corner, which they wound up disabling.

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And the police station that was housing some of the guardian nationale I understood. Got an RPG or rocket propelled grenade through it, which was at the other end of my street. So I guess it's probably better that we weren't there at the time. Uh, because I guess it was pretty crazy time.

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Where were you? I was in the States. I was going to school. Was that after you graduated high school? Mm. Yeah. So that invasion was what? In the early nineties, right? Yeah. So, yeah, I would have actually been finished with school, and I was working in the U.

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S. Okay, so I want to go back a little bit. Your experiences, maybe in high school or middle school. What? We're kind of the political or social issues that you have either heard about or experienced. Well, we we got involved. We were, um, with the Miami Herald.

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They had the international edition down there so that we were more in tune with not only our own situation, but I think a little more global events going on. So, yeah, there was some animosity. Uh, there were a few tensions between some of the Panamanian students and American students when things like the treaty were who was being voted on?

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Um, honestly, we were We recognize that I think is inevitable, but just didn't like the way it was done and pretty much ran through Congress and so forth because there were at the end of the day, there were a lot of the middle class Panamanians that I talk to you later who were not happy with the provisions of the treaty and some of the things that went on because it was it was a cap of both the capital and a human flight from the canal zone.

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I think people who could retire, you know, wanted to retire, and they part of it was being unsure of the future. So there were some tensions there. We You know, sometimes we skip school and gathered on the admin steps and kind of a protest and so forth, but, um, the administration building Sorry.

00:22:34.300 - 00:23:02.060

That was right near my school. Uh, and I think there were There were tensions there. Neither. We didn't like it. I remember driving over a friend's house, listening to the phone on the radio. I still remember that day, and by the time I got over his house, it was done, it was decided, Okay, we're now going to, you know, give the, uh, operation over to Panama.

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Um, I'd say that cause that was intentional, because again, the being unsure of the future and also, you know, not knowing what was gonna happen And if, you know, we knew Panama was going to take over certain areas of the land are they going to maintain it?

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Are they gonna you know what's going to happen to those families in those areas where they're going to have to move. Are they going to, You know, So this affected a lot of my friends and people I grew up with, Um, but, you know, there were some.

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There were some benefits. Obviously, that came out of that, too. There was a development I talked to you earlier about in the causeway. Some of the houses, you know, we're putting private money into the houses, which you couldn't do under some of the government contracts. You couldn't spruce up your house the way some of them were nice.

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A spruce up. Add additions to your house the way you can do now. So that was a benefit for some of the people who stayed there. Mhm. Did I cover your question or yes, Um, prior to the treaty, did you have any aspirations of working in the zone?

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May be taking over your father's job. Was that something that you envisioned before the treaty? No, not really. Taking over my father's job. He was a chemical engineer, and I took some chemistry classes when I went to college and determined that wasn't my path. But later, actually, after I got my MBA, I was thinking about doing teaching down there.

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But by that time, things had transitioned. And, you know, the treaty was in effect, and most of my friends who were teachers were going to other parts of the world. A lot of them went to either Japan. Germany. Um, just various other locations as part of the Department of Defense school system.

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Okay, you mentioned something about protests or gathering in front of the administration building. Were you there? Yeah. I mean, that was a lot of the high school students who were protesting. And, you know, sometimes we had banners and so forth, but it was pretty peaceful and okay, I guess one excuse to skip school was this you were you in high school when you first heard about the treaty?

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We we kept up with it. Um, you know, there was mhm. There were things going on both in Panama City and in the canal zone where it was it was hard to avoid. So that period that year leading up to the vote and there were some tensions and so forth on Carter, actually, I think it came down to Panama, and we were we were there when that happened as well.

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So, um, what was do you think the I guess the leaders of the protest, What do you think was their goal? Um, just to awareness And, you know, to make people aware that we weren't happy with a lot of the provisions that would be done. Um, some of the I guess the treaty in general because it was it was, you know, fairly idyllic lifestyle down there.

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But at the same time, I tell people it was probably one of the most. How do I put this classless society is not lack of class, but lack of, Oh, like in India, like a caste system. There was very little of that. I mean, there were generals and admirals that came over to my dad's house as well as plumbers and everybody else, and everybody was treated fairly.

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Similarly, I would say, because in the States, I came to find out that, you know, knowing the governor knowing, you know, high ranking general was a big deal. And I guess it really wasn't as big a deal down there, Believe it or not, I mean, it was that kind of community, small community.

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What do you think attributed to that? Um, I think part of being an expat community and just being close and getting to know people. And you knew it was like a small town in the U. S. You knew people. You knew their kids. Um, if their kids got in trouble, you know, et cetera, et cetera, So just very open.

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And, you know, I guess, unassuming, even on the part of, you know, people like the lieutenant governor, the governor, or some of the I ranking military folks. So I guess more of a integration into the community and getting to know people. And my dad was also with the Navy League, so he knew a lot of the It was like a support group of the U.

00:28:31.370 - 00:28:55.730

S. Navy, and they have chapters up here as well, but he was involved in that. So yeah, And for us, just, you know, getting involved in We had different clubs, different organizations in high school. Uh, but being aware, I think just being more aware of what was happening in our own community.

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Okay, um What? We're kind of the relationships between the military families and the zone. Ian's, the people, the families that worked on the canal. I'd say for me it was pretty good. And for most most I think in general it was It was good. I think the military there regret was, you know, having to move in, you know, maybe after four years or something like that.

00:29:26.630 - 00:29:54.260

Some state. I don't think there were many tensions there. The only tensions we had were sometimes when, um, some of the military forces were new to Panama and they would, um, mhm do crazy things like, you know, if they went to the French cut. I remember one of them died there, and it kind of put pressure on us to, you know, be more careful about where we went in Panama.

00:29:54.260 - 00:30:24.770

So in terms of that, that was the only tension. But between the families themselves, I don't think there were many tensions. We got along pretty well. Even in Fort Amador. There's what they call a colonel's row. And there was a general. General Tang was at the end of that row, and his daughter, you know, used to went to school with us, and we went to beach trips and other events with them.

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So for a big deal, in my opinion, Um, in your experience, growing up there, were you ever able to, I guess, experience. Any kind of tradition or traditional Panamanian culture, Maybe music, food and dances? Yeah, especially during carnival. Okay. How was that crazy? A lot of fun.

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Uh, if you go into Las tablas, uh, you had to make sure you wore just bunny clothing because there's one tradition. I don't know where it came from, but they have little syringes in the squirt blue water and, uh, just you'll be covered in blue water.

00:31:13.640 - 00:31:40.690

But also, I think we came to appreciate a lot of the the native folkloric dances you'll still see at the reunion. A lot of people will go to the what they call the Despot data on Sunday, and we have a very, um, I think, high appreciation of the native dances, and you'll see a lot of the the Toyotas and Montano's in people's houses.

00:31:40.700 - 00:32:16.240

Paintings of it. We have paintings at home of those. So in that culture, there's even a devil mask that our family donated to the cause. That Yeah, and you know, the mask like that that we collected. Um And so, yeah, I was interesting. We got to experience different parts of the culture, including the food, and I still miss some of the real empanadas and things like that.

00:32:16.250 - 00:32:51.880

So, um, what do you think was one of your favorite things about being able to experience a completely different culture? Um, I'd say, being able to get out and go into the different different parts of the country, Uh, experience just different people, different lifestyles, different scenery, everything from mountainous country and near the Costa Rican border to great beaches.

00:32:53.440 - 00:33:17.510

I think we got an appreciation of international culture very early on, which helps, especially when I travel today. Like when I went to Italy is a great case in point. I fumbled my way through, but you learn to bridge the gap with local people. Yeah, you know, you never want to be classified as that ugly American overseas.

00:33:18.050 - 00:33:40.540

I think growing up down there, we were much more aware of things like that. And so that was probably one of the larger benefits living down there and experiencing that and just the lifestyle was good schools, which is one of the reasons my dad stayed and just good community.

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A good place to raise. Raise kids. Okay, Um, is there anything about the Panamanian culture that you still include in your life today in the States? Um, yeah. Various aspects. I mean, I like collecting the art. Like Alice Break was an art teacher down and Panama in our school, and he still does paintings that we collect.

00:34:07.080 - 00:34:31.080

And it's all, uh, everything from native dances to scenes of the Panama Canal Zone included. Uh, we still collect those. We still like, uh, some of the cuisine. Even on a dinner at a dinner party a couple weeks ago, we made empanadas. So we include all that, um, I I think it's just kind of ingrained.

00:34:31.080 - 00:34:53.960

And and most of us who grew up down there, um, when it came time for you to leave high school, What what made you choose a university in the States where that was my dad. Um, I wanted to stay down and they had a junior college down there.

00:34:54.640 - 00:35:16.060

Can. I was in college, Panama Canal College. Um, and I wanted to stay one or two years down there and get some general studies out of the way, But I actually started at Furman University and then moved back down to Panama for a year, got some general studies out of the way and then transferred to TCU for worth.

00:35:17.040 - 00:35:45.060

Um, but to answer your question, the university system can only take you so far down their associates degree was pretty much it. And then if you wanted, uh, bachelor's or master's, then you pretty much went to the States. So, um, I understand that as Amazonian you guys, um, families were able to travel to the States every so often.

00:35:45.440 - 00:36:06.050

How was that? Um that was very beneficial because we have good relationships with our cousins that all lived in the states along the eastern seaboard. So I was able to see them growing up. Uh, we were able to do vacations, um, in Colombia and also Mexico.

00:36:06.530 - 00:36:26.250

So well, let's see, did that. And then we were able to travel. So I was able to go to different places in the US And also when I was in college, I was able to come back during Christmas, and I think we're allowed to trips per year as long as we were in school.

00:36:26.730 - 00:36:56.930

I think my dad's company, especially during Christmas, I bet. Um, so my next question is, how how was it moving to college? How was the college experience coming from a tropical place, A certain very specific lifestyle. And then moving to Tennessee and starting school. Well, it was probably Yeah, it was different and firming.

00:36:56.930 - 00:37:26.150

But in in Fort Worth, it was pretty different from for me because I had already attended two colleges at that point, and I was transferring. I ran into people who had not been out of their hometown, which was very kind of foreign for me. Uh, I ran into, um, more designer clothing, which has also foreign to us because most of us weren't into, you know, the designer clothing.

00:37:26.160 - 00:37:57.760

Except for if it was tropical designer clothing. You know, back then it was some lightning bolt, and, you know, hang 10 stuff that goes way back. But actually, one of the the guy who started that company came from our high school. Uh, so it was more like a surfer type stuff that if that was going to be your designer, uh, those types, shirts and things like that, but I guess somewhat upscale.

00:37:57.760 - 00:38:13.740

But the designer clothing and the polos and all that when I got to TCU was, um, different. And you just blend it in like, yeah, I'm not going to say I didn't do designer clothing now and then, but it was just not a big deal for me.

00:38:13.750 - 00:38:39.540

I wasn't I don't think a lot of us were caught. Kind of like, at least at that point in our life anyway, Mhm, um, going to college at that point, you're an adult. Um, so my question is what? We're kind of like the major differences, um, that you got to see between the Americans that lived in the zone and then the Americans in the United States.

00:38:40.420 - 00:39:09.430

Yeah, um, I think we had kind of a and this is basically just living from an overseas. I think we had a little more awareness of social and political events. We had a little more awareness of dicey situations where you tend to develop 1/6 sense, Especially when there were tensions in Panama.

00:39:09.430 - 00:39:28.830

And you're going on, you know, going into the interior, you just had to be very cautious of, you know, getting stopped by the local police, and, you know, what you might do and so forth. Um, not that we ran into a lot of trouble with that, but Mm.

00:39:29.820 - 00:39:46.240

You know, I think that gave us more of a six cents when we got to college, and we, you know, we're in a If we ever were in a, like, a part of a neighborhood or something like that that, you know, we were a little less trusting in that regard is how I want to put it.

00:39:46.620 - 00:40:09.550

Okay, But in terms of other areas, no, not not a big deal. I think everybody quote unquote blended in. Fine. We went to colleges all over the US. Oh, um, as far as safety being that at the canal zone, there was a military base. Um, it was a certain stretch of land.

00:40:09.560 - 00:40:41.250

Um, how safe did you feel in Panama? In the zone. In Panama, Um, or compared to the United States. Well, during that time, I think I felt, uh, in some areas of Panama a little less safe than the zone. I mean, I think the zone was, you know, patrolled well and with the military, but I didn't feel that uncomfortable traveling and almost any part of Panama City.

00:40:41.250 - 00:40:58.660

There were certain certain areas that you obviously avoided. There were certain parts of Tokyo and in other parts of the city that you just, you know, really didn't venture in. And that went for both, you know, Panamanians and Americans. You know, it's just one of those things.

00:40:58.660 - 00:41:19.940

You Jacksonville. We don't go to the certain parts of the West Side the same thing, but, um, I think from that aspect, you just you were cautious but not intimidated, if that is a good way to put it. Okay, Um, so now if I may I want to talk to you about faith.

00:41:19.950 - 00:41:44.250

Um, was that something that in your childhood, um, and your experiences in Panama did that play heavily into your life? It did. We come from Presbyterian background that goes back a number of generations in our family. And so that played in in both, uh, my dad raising us.

00:41:44.260 - 00:42:07.600

And we went to what was called Union Church Bobble Union Church. But it was really a combination of Presbyterian Methodist and probably Baptist, because they did have, like, a separate Baptist church down there, but really not a lot of Presbyterian or Methodist? Um, went to church pretty much every Sunday, whether I wanted to or not.

00:42:07.610 - 00:42:32.320

Um, and excuse me. I think that played a big part because my brother is the minister play. And he's in charge of point of churches up in New York City. My sister works for a church in Kansas City. So excuse me, That definitely played into hard growing up.

00:42:33.000 - 00:42:59.480

Did you Did that translate into your college experience and into your adult life? Mhm. It did. Um, you know, you Sometimes you reach a point where you break away from the church, especially in college. If you have a lot going on and so forth, and then after you get out of college, you migrate back on your own accord.

00:42:59.490 - 00:43:25.480

So I think that happened to a number of friends. Yeah, we partied pretty hard, but at the we still had a faith, you know, core faith and guys. I grew up with one of the biggest party responded being a minister himself. So, you know, it's you look back to all of what we did.

00:43:25.480 - 00:43:54.110

And when we went on all these crazy adventures and you know, now director of it civil engineer, PhD teaching students. You know, just all kinds of stuff. Uh, what do you do today? I do analytics for Citizens Insurance Company, which is one of the largest property and casualty insurers in the state of Florida.

00:43:54.120 - 00:44:17.210

So, technically, my role would be a business analyst. Senior business analyst. Okay. And where did you decide to live now? Uhh in Jacksonville. Okay, so we've been there 10 years I came. I originally transferred down. I was doing some work for a health care company and then wound up working for 80 p for a number of years.

00:44:17.210 - 00:44:36.460

And now this. I just started a less than a year ago. Um, and do you have Children? Uh, through my wife? Yeah. We met later in life, but she has grown Children, uh, one of whom lives in Jacksonville. The other goods and, uh, right outside of ST Louis.

00:44:36.690 - 00:45:00.290

Have you ever gotten a chance to talk to them about your experiences living in the Panama Canal Zone? Yes, I have. Um, and in fact, when uh, David, um, was 17, he actually came to one of these reunions. Really something, huh? I was an adventure for him as well.

00:45:00.290 - 00:45:26.720

as us, but it was fun. Um, how often have you been able to go back after moving after college? I went back in, um, 93 which was the first time I've been back since I graduated from college. I went back in 99 for the last, but I think that was the last graduation bubble high school.

00:45:27.090 - 00:45:51.620

And in 2000, we took a cruise that went through part of the canal. Okay, then finally, in 2003, get a wild hair and decided to do the Cayuga race with three other friends who I graduated from high school with, actually two friends and friends. Wife. Um, So I did that in 2000 and three.

00:45:51.620 - 00:46:14.880

That was the last time I was there. Okay, um And as time passed and you got to go, what were some of the differences that you saw? That certain things stay the same? How did you view it? As time progressed? Quite a few differences. There were differences with our house, for example, because Esso took over the entire house.

00:46:14.880 - 00:46:49.100

Once we moved out, turn it into a office. It was an office on the downstairs. But then they converted the upstairs as well. So, um, our garage is that we had in the back became conference rooms and things of that nature. Ah. And then there was more development in general in Panama, Uh, in the town of Abu, uh, I was telling you, especially along the causeway lot of development there with the marina, the hotels.

00:46:49.110 - 00:47:06.560

Um, mhm. I think the last time I was there, there was a Miss Universe pageant going on, and they were doing that near the base of the causeway. Uh, so there was a lot of development in association with that. So, yeah, those were changes that we saw.

00:47:06.570 - 00:47:23.960

But things like Elva and the markets we went to, um, didn't change as much. There's still a little store called castles. Chela. That's been there for over 30 years that we used to go to on the way to the beach. Um, and let's see what else?

00:47:23.970 - 00:47:46.480

Um, yeah, just certain areas like the our school got was turned into an office office building. My high school. Wow. Um mm. And the plaque from our high school is actually in the room in the vendor area. So that was a tradition. You never step on the plaque, especially if you're a freshman, because you have to polish it.

00:47:46.480 - 00:48:14.590

If you do, uh, so things. You'll see reflections of that that were traditions that were ingrained. So, uh, yeah, and I I don't know if is that answer, or do you need more details on that? My next question is, do you ever see yourself moving back?

00:48:15.970 - 00:48:38.590

Possibly. There's a lot of expats and not just Americans who moved back there. You see a lot of Europeans up in the book at the area and things like that. I think the cost of living the health care, um, in some ways in my opinion, tends to surpass the US in certain areas.

00:48:38.730 - 00:49:12.680

More expensive. You mean Well, the cost of living is cheaper, but the health care is comparable from what I've seen and heard. Yeah, and just the development. I think last I heard, Panama's GDP was 68% which is far surpassing the U. S. Of course, it's smaller economy, but, uh, there's things that are attractive to people who grew up there, you know, we tend to draw the infrastructure, is there by that?

00:49:12.680 - 00:49:49.520

I mean the shops, the different buildings, affordable housing. Things of that nature don't have to worry about schools at this point. So yeah, it's on the radar, so to speak. A couple other things. Okay, well, I want to take, uh I want you to take me through kind of, uh, the process of, um I guess analyzing what happened with the transition of the Panama Canal going to back to Panama.

00:49:49.530 - 00:50:18.770

So if you could please kind of explain to me how you felt when you first heard about the treaty And, um, how you feel now, Has there been any change in the way that you view it or how you feel about it? When it was partly the mindset of being 16, 17 years old and, you know, thinking, Okay, now my home is going away.

00:50:19.160 - 00:50:40.850

So in that regard, we were angry at first and disillusioned by, uh, we felt by the U. S. Um, Panama was obviously gonna push for it because it was in their benefit. But we felt disillusioned. And that was, I think, the first break from zone IANs who were very close to the U.

00:50:40.850 - 00:51:07.360

S. And also appreciated Panama. But I think that was put some strain on those relations later. I think we, you know, again came to see it as inevitable, but just some of the mechanics of the treaty we weren't happy with. And I think in some regards, we felt that Panama wasn't.

00:51:07.370 - 00:51:27.600

And I'm not trying to sound biased or anything, but we felt Panama was not ready to take control of all the moving parts that were going on, which was evidenced by some of the upkeep in, uh, like towns of Gamboa. Mattoon, uh, gamble on the Pacific side.

00:51:27.600 - 00:51:50.470

Get tuned on the Atlantic side. They went a couple years after the treaty passed and everything was transitioned. They went into disrepair. Um, and even in the town of Gamble, or sometimes if they don't cleaned out the sewer systems properly, like church was almost flooded. Um, that happened about a year ago.

00:51:50.480 - 00:52:19.470

So there's just maintenance issues that they had to assume that, uh, it being a jungle, a lot of rainfall, there's just maintenance that you have to do. So, uh, in terms of the actual, uh, governing of the area as well as the operation of the canal, I do believe they raised tolls a little bit right after the canal.

00:52:20.050 - 00:52:47.430

But there's also maintenance of the canal that needed doing like dredging and so forth. So those operations, I think they were with respect to Panama, they were thrown into the deep end of the pool fairly quickly. So the maintenance of all those components, along with the potential for minor corruption or I'm going to do this.

00:52:47.440 - 00:53:19.770

You know, we understood that was part of the Panama culture. It happens in a lot of cultures happens in US culture. But assuming control of that, I think it went into disrepair, and then it started coming back up. Once you've got a lot of the money and people who were moving from Panama into the zone doing things on their own houses and, you know, building up some of the supermarkets, the local supermarkets in the Canal Zone, that was a good part of the development.

00:53:20.150 - 00:53:38.040

I think there's in some ways there's a lot more opportunities for, like families of ours, we weren't able to shop in the military P X, where a lot of other families were, especially if you're a canal employee or your military family. So when the treaty went into effect.

00:53:38.050 - 00:54:03.680

That's another aspect. We actually had to start shopping in, uh, supermarkets in Panama. Um, which was a little tougher for my mom because she wasn't as well versed in Spanish is as we were. Um, but those types of transitions for us as a family as well as I think a community put some strains, a few strains on it.

00:54:03.690 - 00:54:29.660

But eventually, the people who stay were able to overcome that. A lot of people just unfortunately left. You saw the population just go way down in the former canals. Yeah, but you know, again, I think there were certain benefits in terms of the infrastructure and some of the hotels and other things that were came to the community.

00:54:30.540 - 00:54:53.420

How do you think your experiences in Panama has, and everything that has transpired has affected your family today? Um, I think we're we We still love Panama. We still love the canal zone, and we we don't cling to, you know, the canals will never should have changed type mentality.

00:54:53.420 - 00:55:22.010

It's just embracing what's happening now. And, you know, looking any one of us would still want to go back down there for any length of time. So we don't We don't harbor any ill will of that nature at all. I think we still have. We still wear not typical Panamanian clothing, but we have Panama items throughout all our family.

00:55:22.020 - 00:55:42.380

Um, as a family, we're pretty close, so yeah, we we, like, come to the reunions. Two of my sisters are here for the reunion. Um, my brother wanted to come. Could make it this year. Uh, so, yeah, I think it's a way that the reunion itself can be viewed in a couple different ways.

00:55:42.380 - 00:56:05.260

Yeah, you have this congregation of canals and people. But you also have a congregation of people who love Panama and appreciate the lifestyle we had growing up in a foreign country and able to experience everything that a foreign country has to offer. Um, what brings you back to these conventions?

00:56:05.270 - 00:56:32.550

These congregations, These major parties? Um uh, seeing a lot of old friends, um, chance to get together with my sisters ones in Kansas City ones in Virginia. So, uh, that was a big draw for me this year. Class reunions? Because this services an umbrella for class reunions underneath it, you've probably seen?

00:56:33.530 - 00:56:53.790

Um, you know, I have a chance to chat with people I haven't seen in a long time. A good friend of my brother's. I ran into last night from Boy Scout days. So things like that that you just Yeah, you can connect on Facebook and social media and all that, but it's obviously not the same, right?

00:56:53.910 - 00:57:17.950

So those types of experiences and just yeah, you know, bringing the culture of Panama to the U. S. Since we can all get down there all the time. Nice. Alright. Well, at this point, I don't have any more questions, but I would like to ask if there's anything that we haven't talked about that you would like to house documented.

00:57:18.530 - 00:57:51.570

Mm. Um, I I think just in terms of the society itself, there are a lot of books that have been written, and I still go back to my sense of classless society. And how really kind of tight we were. And we were is a great community, and I think we integrated.

00:57:51.580 - 00:58:17.660

Uh, do we integrate a lot of Panamanian things into our community as we could have known? But I think for the most part of being an expat community. It wasn't like one big military base where you're, you know, not integrating whatsoever, even in places like Germany and things like that where it's much more closed in, if you will.

00:58:18.030 - 00:58:36.960

And I just appreciate the fact of growing up with people where you're you know, what your dad did or your stature wasn't as big a deal. Okay, Did my dad know a lot of people in the community? Yes, but he also did that because of his involvement in civic activities.

00:58:38.730 - 00:58:48.450

Other than that, I think we pretty much covered it. Also appreciate your time. I appreciate your time, Mr Morrison. I'd like to thank you. This concludes our interview.