00:00:00.640 - 00:00:26.650

All right, Mr Hudson, you are explaining that these were some of your identification documents. Yes. This is the, uh, I D That was used for the employees in the canal zone. Thes e post pass, us post path. Ah, federal driver's license when you work for the canal zone and drive.

00:00:26.940 - 00:00:50.600

And I was own equipment. In addition to the canal zone rising, you have to have a federal license. Okay? And you are working. It looks like International Association of Firefighters. So that is the firefighters union card. Okay, So you remember the firefighters union and, ah, firefighter and, um, member in good standing.

00:00:51.140 - 00:01:16.780

Wow. It's all a firefighter for 25 years there. And where did you do You have? Ah, station? Yes. I was stationed on the Atlantic side. E was an officer, most of it for 13 years. So we moved from station to station. We had a station and mountain, which was a central station on the Atlantic side.

00:01:16.790 - 00:01:41.320

You had a station in cartoon? Yes. We had a substation. And for Sherman. Yes, sir. On one in cocoa, Sollitto. Okay, I'm not familiar with that. I remember for Sherman Cartoon Cocoa, Sausalito, Sausalito, was on the other side. Okay, Yes. So on the Pacific side? No, it was on the other side of the Atlantic side.

00:01:41.320 - 00:02:03.470

But on the other side of this waas on the other side of the highway. Oh, I see. Okay, So you are a firefighter for many years. Yes, I was. Mr Hudson. I wonder. I'm looking at the this the document here, a tribute to our educators, and this is looks like a high school kind of memory book.

00:02:03.840 - 00:02:30.560

And I wonder if you could tell me kind of starting with life history about your family's history, Um, in Panama and how your family came to the country. Well, I my family originally was from San Andres Islands, uh, migrated the Panama. Probably. That's where they met the Mara Panama.

00:02:31.240 - 00:02:55.280

But from my memory memory, I remember moving into the canal zone when I was about, I lived in the Republic of Panama and I moved to the canal zone when I was about six or seven years old. And did they talk? Did your parents talk about or any family members talk about, uh, life before that time, like early in the 20th century.

00:02:55.290 - 00:03:25.150

So they weren't living there in the 20th century. Um, they came their little before. Yeah, we're all when I can't remember when I moved into the canal zone, there was segregated mhm. We lived in a mature here. We call Silva City, where just people of color lived there.

00:03:26.240 - 00:03:54.050

In other words, when I finally history of Parma, is that people of color like myself that kept can ozone or descendants off most people from the West Indies? Yes, sir. Because there were the label force that actually build the Panama Canal. So they brought. They brought the mirror on contract, do the menu of manual work.

00:03:55.340 - 00:04:19.490

The technical jobs were reserved for, like us citizens, which they paid more. Also, they had a system where they paid gold and silver. The U. S. Citizens made more money, and they were bid in goal is that way, were paid in silver. We had living quarters.

00:04:19.500 - 00:04:45.620

We had communities that were segregated. The non civil cities, the civil citizens live in the civil community. The white people live in the ghost communities in that system of segregation. Um, did your family, uh, talk about the separate life? Was there a sense of of inequality.

00:04:45.630 - 00:05:06.170

Uh, at that time, it was just accepted at a way of life becomes. Most of them came from other countries where they're practically had nothing on but the little that they are. They thought it was a lot, even though we were segregated and the U. S.

00:05:06.480 - 00:05:42.490

At the time at the canal zone, which was dear territory that they run as they please. Well, in the contract that added with Panama after the independence that their own government which include police, fire courts, the laws were geared to the New Orleans state laws. So, you know, in New Orleans was deep South and segregated, so anything that applied in New Orleans applied in the canal zone, and that's the system that we live honorable way.

00:05:42.490 - 00:06:03.080

We didn't know any any other system. So in many ways, as you got older, you you started thinking about how life in the canal zone was very much like life in New Orleans or in American south. Well, there, you know, we got from that life in your limbs.

00:06:03.080 - 00:06:29.170

Sweet. Didn't recognize what it was real life because we were segregated. We are not to do with the US whites they live in separate communities. We live in separate communities that provided those things for them. Provided housing for us. They had shopping areas, commentaries, they call them, which were like large supermarkets where they shop.

00:06:30.140 - 00:06:53.610

We had silver commentaries where our people shop. Mr. Hudson, your you were talking earlier on. Do you showed me that this this'll looks like a kind of a high school reunion. Can you tell me about what your school was like? It looks like Silver City Occupational High school.

00:06:53.620 - 00:07:18.060

What was the education? Well, it was basically, um occupational school. In other words, the curriculum was different from the curriculum in the U. S. Schools. In other words, we're prepared to do menial jobs, like working the commissaries, work as laborers on the docks and things like that.

00:07:19.840 - 00:07:48.530

The courses we have basic freedom, writing arithmetic off of the day. And then we had a shop. We had shop periods. We had carpentry way, had printing. We have an auto mechanic, former economics. These were the subjects that they were taught tailoring. So these were different jobs.

00:07:48.540 - 00:08:09.460

Aziz, I've been interviewing some of the people connected to the Panama Canal Museum. They referred me to people who had worked, as you know, ship pilots and people like engineers. But it sounds like for people of color you were not. I mean, your educational system was not designed to help you get those types of jobs.

00:08:09.460 - 00:08:35.760

It wasn't it wasn't in the beginning, but the first. The first change came when the ice in our Ramon treated. They signed a treaty then to make changes. Got prior to that, some people got together a farmer labor union toe oppose these conditions. But right away, the Brandon was communists.

00:08:36.100 - 00:08:59.320

Fire them on, even put some of them in jail. Who formed the labor union? What kind of union was, um, it was affiliated with F L C I O. But I don't remember exactly the people that were involved. Then that was during the 19 fifties. That was in the early forties fifties, Yes, or the Eisenhower before the ice in our treaty.

00:08:59.330 - 00:09:23.190

But after that, there is an hour treated. No. Some of the jobs they decide that the natives could do it are people there. So they started training programs. One of the first group to be integrated was the Fire Department. That That's really fascinating, Mr Hudson. It was.

00:09:23.200 - 00:09:43.480

I've interviewed, um, black firefighters in the United States who talked about integrating fire departments in the late 19 fifties or 19 sixties in some cases, but there was always a struggle to do that. What was it like for, you know, what year did you start with a fire?

00:09:43.480 - 00:10:04.490

Come in 1956. Well, what happened at the time? The fire department was lily white, all whites, But they did not The manpower on at the time. The sign are treated to take care of all the fire fighting on the canal zone, including the military. So they had to hire more people.

00:10:04.500 - 00:10:32.060

So they decided out that it would are locals remember they advertised. There were 76 positions on out of a tree. 3 to 4000 applicants. Mhm. So what? That was the beginning. Because at the time, the minimum or interest was in the about 40 cents. 30 for 30 to 40 cents an hour on these jobs were starting at 76 cents an hour.

00:10:32.540 - 00:10:55.870

So it was a big jump. That's your did you have. And you so in terms of starting out is ah is a firefighter. What? What kind of application process do you have to go through? But first specified education. You have to have a high school diploma, which basically we had.

00:10:56.240 - 00:11:21.550

Then, um, you have to be a certain way that height. Then you have to pass a physical. Then the screen, you till they decide what I wanted on then I didn't make it easy. The training was tough. The eliminate you for simple things. So the few that survive the colors, um, the selected few or something like that.

00:11:22.240 - 00:11:39.260

But they didn't make it easy on. Then. We we were assigned just to write the back of the trucks. Their drivers there were, they promote them out, the officers, those that could make it. Onda we really the back of the truck that so it started out.

00:11:39.270 - 00:11:58.210

So the people of color were in the back and the drivers of the white individuals on the officers in the office. That was 50 Mr Hudson. I wonder if we could take maybe just a step backward, because I don't wanna forget the school. Your school experience?

00:11:58.340 - 00:12:23.150

Did you have a favorite teachers or educators that made an impact on you as a student? Yes, I did. I oughta, uh, miss McDonald, The Susa on the thing of all our teachers were from the West Indies, mostly blacks, people around the school, superintendents. They were white.

00:12:24.040 - 00:12:48.620

But all of our teachers were West Indian and prominently block. And did they have a sense? I mean, within the limitations that have been placed on them and on the school, Um, did you have a sense that they were really trying to give you the best education they possibly could?

00:12:48.630 - 00:13:26.880

They did. They did. E lifted. What were your favorite subjects? Well, I like science. Biology, mats. Oh, and so that was something I am vocational like to printing. So I graduated with basic for printing, printing and bookbinding A Z, a young man in high school. Were you thinking of, like, what types of jobs you that you might wanna have?

00:13:26.880 - 00:13:47.640

I mean this. But even before the firefighting career, where you were people talking about occupations, well, the opportunities were just limited. So when you get out of school, we think about one thing getting a job, especially in the canal zone. Because if you got a job in the Canal zone.

00:13:47.640 - 00:14:14.520

It paid a little bit more than the jobs in the republic did. Thank you. And did you have looking at the education book again? What year did you graduate, Mr Hudson? Uh, what year did you graduate? 1950 53 1953. I'm just kind of looking here at your fellow graduates.

00:14:14.520 - 00:14:37.250

And so you had a class off course about 50 people in your class about that? Yeah. That's one of the smallest class. Really. What types of where were the students from? Primarily at that time? Were they from all throughout Panama, where they living in the Atlantic side primarily.

00:14:37.940 - 00:15:02.670

This is from the Atlantic side. Most of these on. They all lived on work. They're probably worked in the canal zone because what happened? Three people that worked in the canal zone in certain jobs were given housing in the canal zone. So to go to these schools, you have to be a resident that you can also Mhm.

00:15:03.240 - 00:15:29.840

Yeah. Wow. And you have? I see the president. Vice President Viktor Smith. Albert Brownie. Uh, were these friends of yours? Did you have, like, a social kind of a class? The class president. Yeah, We had social groups. We had photo clubs, we had music. And this is interesting, too.

00:15:29.840 - 00:16:00.740

On here. It says many members of the class of 1953 in 1954 volunteers in the US Army during the Korean conflict. Okay, so many of the cloud of your classmates served in Korea? Definitely. It was a way out for the kids in the canal zone. You know, they come to the state, joined the US Army and get a break mhm on June, the Korean War.

00:16:00.740 - 00:16:25.880

What happened? But the took a lot of kids from Panama. Yeah. Can I over you something? Oh, coffee would be fine. Thank you so much. There in a minute. Make it get something else. Uh, Mr Hudson, I'm just gonna You just handed me a book titled Panama Isthmus.

00:16:25.880 - 00:16:51.790

The Canal in the Country by David R. W. Jones. And if you wouldn't mind, I'm just gonna read uh, there's a photograph of you next to a fire engine and you're standing in the middle of two, uh, co workers and it says the man, I hope fire Hall serves the communities of Rainbow City in Margarita as well as the few people who still live in Crystal Ball.

00:16:51.800 - 00:17:10.690

It has the job of putting out fires on ships at the northern end of the canal. If there really is a serious fire, get oon. The man hope men may be called over to help. They also help in their bad fires in the city of Cologne or in the American military bases.

00:17:10.940 - 00:17:28.450

Before we left, Sergeant Hudson gave us these pictures of his family and said that he hoped we could come around to meet everybody as soon as he was off duty. And so you have. So there's a picture of you in front of the fire engine that you you served on.

00:17:28.840 - 00:17:58.720

What were some of them? The I'd use this term, but memorable fires or some of the fires that you remember from those years. One of the worst fires that I've been to is a fire that we had on board a ship, the MV Pan, and it was in a fire inside the ship or yes, it started in one of the car goals.

00:17:58.730 - 00:18:22.150

When we got to the Pierce, the ship was the blaze, so we had to call in the tugs that cut it off and took it out into the bay. The class about treat is fighting it. What had started the fire was that, well, cargo. What happened on certain cargoes shouldn't mix with other cargoes on what happens.

00:18:22.150 - 00:18:56.570

Sometimes these ships come from other countries. They violated these laws and things, cause this problem, like combustible most of like fish meal was one of the products that, you know, with dampness in a shit hole with other things like cotton. And so you without fires. So to be a firefighter in the canal zone, you had to have a really special a group of skills in terms of learning what types of, uh, products or things you could have together.

00:18:56.570 - 00:19:19.170

But also, like, what might be combustible on the ship, the chemistry of firefighting. Yes, we did. We were trained. We got most of our training from books from the Texas A and M college firefighting. Okay, now and I see here too. You brought out a document?

00:19:19.640 - 00:19:54.450

Uh, New York City technical colleges. Oh, no, that zone here thes are certificates from high school. Okay, that your high school certificate? Very good. Most outstanding and citizenship. How Did you learn that? Yes. About being a good student. Okay. Oh, yes, ma'am. Thank you so much.

00:19:55.140 - 00:21:25.440

Oh! Oh, Your coffee. Oh. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. You get a strong as you want. Get a good cup. Yes, man. Yeah. Thank you. You have a treatment, sugar. Oh, okay. Okay. E o. You can't drink something. Just okay, Mr. Hudson, we're looking at you. You brought out the Rainbow City Occupational High School diploma on.

00:21:25.440 - 00:21:51.030

So this is the diploma you graduated in 1953? Yes, that's it. So it was a really interesting time to graduate from high school because earlier you were talking about how there was some changes that were occurring. Even though the society was still very unequal on people of color were still in a very much subordinate status.

00:21:51.040 - 00:22:25.690

There were these small changes occurring There were there were smart changes. Did you have a sense? And in a you know, looking back now, there were these changes happening in different parts of the Caribbean, the anti colonial movements, the civil rights movement in the United States, where black people were organizing, trying to improve their educational opportunities, as as a young man did you?

00:22:25.700 - 00:22:47.150

Did you and your classmates talk about those kind of broader movements, or were you kind of really focused on? Well, we weren't really aware of it early in the fifties. We're because I know when I came with a school, I got a job in Canal Zone with the government in the Heroes as a low German.

00:22:47.160 - 00:23:11.810

That was my first job. I was pretty satisfied, came out of school that great yet I got a job and I stayed there for about a year. Then I went to the commissary, which was one of the supermarkets type store where our work of the Butcher Helper and I stayed there until 56.

00:23:12.440 - 00:23:39.570

I transferred in 56 to the Fire Department from the commissary, and you are really focused in those days on career on trying to improve your job, trying to make jobs appear the most money. It wasn't wasn't much about career, but what happened with the people. It all started from the construction of the canal.

00:23:41.940 - 00:24:03.280

Our people were brought from the West Indies, the work in the canal after the completion of the canal now so they were on contracts. Most of them didn't go back to their countries. They stayed right there in Panama, where they work in the canal Zone. But they were treated different that were paid less money.

00:24:03.940 - 00:24:32.810

They were given the menial jobs, all the prefer jobs there for us citizens, which they brought from the United States. They paid them for hazardous conditions and everything like that, which there were none. But it was like a paradise. When I talked to some of those, some of the individuals that came from the United States, the white individuals, it was surprising to me because I didn't realize that they had such amazing benefits.

00:24:32.820 - 00:25:31.300

Vacation and, uh, people toe watch out after their yards even clean their houses. It was astonishing to because they hire these people at a menial salary on they paid them a lot more. For example, when I went on the fire Department, the starting salary of 76 cents an hour, but a white firefighter was making $2 on 76 cents to do the same job with probably the same educational level and what we what we discovered after we got into the Fire Department that our educational level that we got in the canal zone school was even better than some of the white firefighters that we were dealing with because we would have it came where we had to have classes where we integrated and discussed on the black fire.

00:25:31.300 - 00:25:49.860

Fire is always there in the class. The dummies were these white guys and they were from the United States Why they started. You know, they start the fans them out, those that they could pass them, make them officers even though they weren't bright. They made them officers, those that they couldn't.

00:25:50.820 - 00:26:09.870

They put pressure on them and try to get them into other jobs. That's where that's where the beginning of integration that we really okay, these guys that couldn't cut it with their own no, started to try to size with us. And by siding with you, what were they doing?

00:26:09.880 - 00:26:30.640

Well, I would want to come and hang out. They would want us to go places with them, which weren't even allowed. Somebody guys see them close to us. They didn't like that, you know now And even the officers those are made. Officers were like they kept the distant at their quarters.

00:26:30.650 - 00:26:53.340

We had our quarters. It was really a segregated e mean people like, say, a college student who was studying the United States during segregation. If they looked at Panama and the Canal Zone, they'd see a lot of similarities between the segregation in the US and the segregation in the canal zone.

00:26:53.340 - 00:27:16.120

And really, so far, Mr Hudson, what you're telling me is that just like in the US I mean, they're really the centerpiece of segregation was the unequal wage system in many ways more than an equal wage, unequal living conditions and everything. But I told you before, the canal zone was geared to the New Orleans State lots.

00:27:16.130 - 00:27:39.040

So anything in New Orleans apply here. I see. Now we're there people, Mr Hudson, where the people of color who during those years sometimes might have push back or challenge those laws of times. Where there Yes, yes, we had quite a few people that did, but they put them in jail.

00:27:40.340 - 00:27:59.870

Could you describe some of those some of those incidents or some of the situations where they, for example, um, people living in the Republic working and living in the Republic, that we're living in the canal zone. They could be picked off a lighter in for just crossing the border into the canal zone.

00:28:02.840 - 00:28:39.440

So it kind of almost like a vagrancy act or loitering. You don't often do anything a times, you know, you're hung around, especially if you're going. The white community they call a Blackman is here. The next thing you know, they're picking up for littering. Whether whether people Aziz, you remember any politicians or any, um maybe union leaders or people in the community who would, uh, speak out and maybe even just in the community on say, you know, this is wrong.

00:28:39.440 - 00:28:57.270

We need to try to change this. Um or was there a sense that the power was in earlier? Is there wasn't much. You had a few people like they weren't like Jorge Wilstermann. He wasn't living in the Republic, but he was living in the Republic. But he was adamant about it.

00:28:57.270 - 00:29:20.080

He used to write articles in the paper. You called upon a March Tribune? Yeah, Foster born was he was He was one of the members of this union or I told you about, but they were fired on Brando's communists. But all the changes started in 1956 differently.

00:29:20.080 - 00:29:47.980

56 earlier, over the remaining ice on our treaty. That's when they decided toe of these jobs. And it created on communities councils in the different communities where they would meet with the governor at least once a month. I make changes trying to make changes. What community were you living in at that time?

00:29:47.990 - 00:30:05.820

We were living in Silver City, huh? Silver City All my life. But then the name eventually changed the Rainbow City after they tried to cut up in school and silver. Uh, after trying to eliminate the gold and silver instead of call it service today the gender of the Rainbow City.

00:30:05.830 - 00:30:28.100

Okay, so that was This is interesting. I'm gonna have to ask you a few questions about this because eso in Silver City you had the school that you attended, which, at that time, Well, so it was titled Silver City High School. Okay. And then it changed to Rainbow City High School.

00:30:28.110 - 00:30:47.310

Now, when it changed to Rainbow City High School, did that mean that it became integrated or was? It's just still was practically the same. But what they did, the curriculum changed a bit because when I went to school was predominantly English. Everything will start in English.

00:30:47.320 - 00:31:16.960

But when with Rainbow sited the change after 56 they start. They brought in a Spanish curriculum which was the native language of Panama. So they started to treat speech. Teach Spanish in the school. Andi, that was one of the changes I see was that talking thio these some of these white individuals I don't recall them talking about a Spanish curriculum because they didn't have it.

00:31:17.540 - 00:31:38.410

They didn't have it. That was the difference. The Spanish curriculum Mazzoli in Latin America in schools. In other words, it was no longer, um, black and white. But they call it Latin America. Mhm. But it was still now that when it became Rainbow City High School, I'm sure it says somewhere here, But this was after you graduate.

00:31:38.420 - 00:32:12.370

Eso was this in the 19 seventies or changes? Uh, my kids were in school then. Remember what, Tonto? No, that's 52 is Rainbow City. That's me. Oh, so that would be probably early sixties Now the last 1 61 about 61 is the last year in this booklet is 1960.

00:32:12.440 - 00:32:37.590

Don't you. So by this time, by 62 it's already rainbow. Okay from there on, because that came on 64. So okay. And by the time of your schools, Okay. But you did not have There were no white individuals who are in the class. Yeah, there was No, no, wait.

00:32:37.600 - 00:32:55.940

Okay. I see. And see in the United States way had a few military families, black military families that lived. I can Coco Solo are probably even for Davis. Where you were that they went to schools in the black community because they were blocked. Okay, I did.

00:32:55.940 - 00:33:19.680

And I didn't know that it wasn't. Wasn't. Wasn't a lot of them, But there were a few about two or three military families that the kids were black, but they didn't attend the white schools. They came to Rainbow City because it looks like and it looks like the class size stayed about the same over time, maybe.

00:33:20.340 - 00:33:48.390

Well, wait a minute. No, it gets a little bigger. 1955. And were there more people going to school in the mid 19 fifties? Or is it just maybe everybody? Oh, you could, uh, Mr Hudson, when you were when you were in school, Who were you, or did you have role models?

00:33:48.390 - 00:34:07.950

Did you have heroes? Do you have people you kind of looked up to. I'm just looking here in some of the some of the teachers, some of the teachers said, Try to set a very good example like we had a teacher that thought much Ford, you see through that you learn Griff it Miss Shirley or and be Shirley.

00:34:15.940 - 00:34:38.360

It looks like a very good school. It was, You know, one thing coming to America. I realized that it let me appreciate the educational system at the time that we didn't think much of it. But I think it's a lot was a lot better, even though it was segregated than a lot of the educational system that the blacks got in this country.

00:34:39.350 - 00:35:08.240

And it's interesting that that you say that I've interviewed a lot of black people in Florida and other Southern states, and they believe that there were some advantages in their schools during segregation, that the teachers were more involved in the education of the student. All they're all around on that when the schools integrated that there was some losses that occurred.

00:35:08.240 - 00:35:26.760

Well, a lot of in a zoo. You know, in the United States, a lot of one of the advantages that we had to with going to school on learning the teachers live in the community so that that that made a different That's a big deal. Very, very important.

00:35:29.940 - 00:35:58.680

This is a great you're back. Do you have Aziz? You were so in 19. You graduate from high school, Mr Hudson, in 1953 and you worked in a few different jobs, and then you talked about the process of becoming a firefighter. Um uh, can you talk about your early years on the job and some of the experiences that you had go on early Earth of the Chaperone?

00:36:00.530 - 00:36:25.860

I work about 11 years of the firefighter, get periodic car races. I wrote the back of the truck most of the time, and I did a lot of clerical work because, um, we did our own dispatching and everything like that. And somehow the captain that I work with at the time select me to do paperwork.

00:36:25.860 - 00:36:47.640

So I did a lot of clerical work in addition to that. So after about 11 years, after this one of these treaties to they decided that they stop bringing these officers from the United States because every time you had a vacancy for officer in the fire department, that would recruit somebody from the U.

00:36:47.640 - 00:37:04.260

S. And bring them down while we are there on the job. But after a while, let's stop that and decided to open it up so we could be supervisors. So we they made a test on. I passed the test, and I was selected on became a sergeant.

00:37:05.630 - 00:37:37.260

Uh, that was by the time that this book was published here. Do you remember what year you're promoted to, sergeant? 1966? 66? Yeah, 1966. And when you became a sergeant, Mr Hudson? What? How did your responsibilities change? Um, in the fire finding businessman. What types of new things did you became in charge of a company?

00:37:40.430 - 00:38:07.120

I would have a in charge of a a driver on two or three firefighters on a station, so that was a lot of responsibility. And can you talk a little bit about your personal life? When did you meet your wife? When did you? Well, I met.

00:38:07.130 - 00:38:35.790

I met my first wife in high school in high school way married on our kids. But over the years we separated. Then I met my present wife. That was in the seventies. I would say it's something. Okay, What was community life like as is You became a sergeant and got older in terms of Rainbow City.

00:38:35.790 - 00:38:56.750

What were some of the activities that you would do like in terms of like, social life or well, at the time after I got involved with the City Council, which this council meet every month with the governor on, I got involved in the community with Little League Baseball's because we had things like that.

00:38:58.020 - 00:39:21.500

So I kept me very active with that when you were with the Civic Council. So that was, Ah, Council of Leaders and rain. Most city city gumbo, which was another black community, Petro Miguel Parry. So on then you are a concept for the white community, but we never meet at the same time.

00:39:21.500 - 00:39:44.660

We met separately. What did you try to do? Is a council trying to get improvement for the community, try to get equal things that we had another communities like improvement and the housing improvement on our education and things like that. Although we're at the time the canal zone was run by a governor and the governor was usually a general, a military man.

00:39:45.120 - 00:40:05.330

So they were setting What the way things should have. Bean remember one of the community that was in about the educational system comparing them on. We brought it up to the governor and he told me straight himself where, Mr Hudson, when we provide education for your kids, we didn't tend for them to go to college.

00:40:05.340 - 00:40:25.650

How many of them go to college anyway? And you're so that was the kind of mentality that you had thio Deal it e. You're trying to get better educational and housing opportunities for people in your community. But the military leadership has that kind of segregation mentality.

00:40:25.650 - 00:40:56.630

Definitely E. That didn't change on 19 it. That changed after the 1964 riots. What class of 1964 riots again, was there the segregation? You see, the people from Panama didn't like what up there and you can also. So the students went to put a flag on the administration building in Balboa Heights on the police came and tried to take it them and started a riot that last for a boat.

00:40:57.890 - 00:41:21.810

The riot stuck last for about a week, a week to 10 days. Lives were lost, buildings were burned. It was in 1964 64. That and I apologize. I forgot. Can you tell me what kind of flag that the students have put out? A Panamanian flags of Panama United States flag flight on all government buildings in the canal.

00:41:21.810 - 00:41:43.020

So these students tried to raise a Panamanian flag, and so that caused some of the white individuals to be very obsessed calling the police and the police started and the students fought back. And next thing you know, the army had to come in and it was chaos in the country.

00:41:43.510 - 00:42:29.490

It's spreading. It started on a passive excited end up on the Atlantic side. Do you? How did how did the right impact your life at that time? By that time you were already a firefighter. It was tough because there's a firefighter. We at the man. The lines we went out there on the front on was our own people on the other side and in some in some ways, though, even though the riot was, um, a tough situation, it sounds like it has a way of bringing some changes.

00:42:29.500 - 00:42:56.880

It did. It did and surely did. How quickly did you notice the changes? Right after the riot, we had, um, Korea's Carter Treaty, where they decided toe relinquish this perpetual control that they had of the canal, the canal, the original treaty that it would belong to United States forever.

00:42:57.830 - 00:43:22.250

They gave Panama, I think, less than a million dollars a year for it. But this treated change that we're over a period of time will be returned to Panama. Panama Control. That's what we got today. Now that's where Tory a scarred treated started because right now the Panama Canal is run by natives, guys that run in the canals.

00:43:22.250 - 00:43:49.360

Kids that grew up with me that I see grew up like the poor captain is everybody name or the name Colburn. His father was his uncle was a teacher. He grew up in a community with me. But what they did after that that it started a apprentice program where the natives no start to apply for jobs like talk about captains, launch operators pipefitters so skilled.

00:43:49.360 - 00:44:17.250

Skilled? Yeah, these were the changes that they remember. I said, what treaty? I mean, the Koreas Carter Treaty started. And that was when that was that the trees Carter treaty Was that when Jimmy Carter was president? Okay, I see. Um, this is embarrassing for me, but I grew up in a Navy town in Washington state, and as a young boy, I was born in 1964.

00:44:17.250 - 00:45:01.380

I can remember adults complaining and they would say Carter gave away our Yes, yes. E didn't know. I would just hear them, E. Yeah, it was just amazing. But you had a very different perspective on it. Yeah, card game. But we're kinda was the top. But I thought what the one of the other things I find interesting is that some of the people that we've interviewed because we went to a couple a couple of these reunions that the museum association, Pamuk and association has had some of the individuals.

00:45:01.390 - 00:45:21.260

Some of the white individuals have even said, you know, the canals run much more efficiently now. Then it was run back when we weren't charged, which I find to be an interesting kind of, uh, I went down there on silicon. Oh, the people are running it.

00:45:21.270 - 00:45:46.000

My own people on one time. That was They think that was impossible. That would have never happened. Mr. Hudson, When you What year did you move from the from Rainbow City? Or did you always live in Rainbow City? Did you ever move from there to another part of the country or No.

00:45:46.000 - 00:46:06.940

I lived in Rainbow most most of my life until I came to the United States. And so you were involved in the Civic Council for most of those years. For a few years. Not most of it. A few years. I did it. It was involved with kids that they were in little League baseball.

00:46:07.180 - 00:46:36.960

Completely league, amateur baseball, things like that. Were there a lot of, uh Did you have a baseball leagues? Uh, yes, we are. We are a little league baseball. We have baseball leagues. Yeah, the government did did, um, support us and that they gave us equipment, balls, equipments and things like that.

00:46:39.650 - 00:47:01.380

Were there baseball players that you you kind of looked up to or followed during those years? Well, June knows here is, um I played some baseball, but during those years, to even the baseball was segregated because we are the Canal Zone League, which made up of four white teams.

00:47:02.480 - 00:47:30.750

They brought players from the States, plus guys that were in the military station there. They played professional ball. You had 14 Crystal Colon. The obliges on Balboa on these were all white teams. But then you have the Panama professional Leagues where there were black and people from the Negro Leagues come there, came there on play.

00:47:30.750 - 00:47:49.600

It also, but they never integrated. At the time, we were able to watch any of those games. Yes, way watch. We lived in Rainbow City on the crystal ball was in the Mondo ballpark, so we had access to that. We will go there and sit on the fence and watch the games.

00:47:51.580 - 00:48:12.090

Were there players? Um, some of the names that I remember, people like Satchel Paige and some of the great, uh, Negro League baseball players. Do you have a chance to watch any of those? Well, I never Actually, she's not such a people have seen ah, lot of great Negro League players like Dan Blanket.

00:48:12.970 - 00:48:37.550

Aren't you aware? Do you, Alex Smith, Because I got something I gotta try out with one of the professional teams on. And these guys came down the spring training, so I worked out with the team. Sam Jones. He went on to pitch for the Cardinals. These guys, that I met them work with one of my classmates.

00:48:37.550 - 00:48:56.980

I'll end up in the major leagues. It was the class of 50 actor Lopez he played with the Yankees. Mhm. Wow, that was Yeah, right around the time because I'm trying. Remember the year that Jackie Robinson that was 40 40 46? He went with Montreal 47.

00:48:56.980 - 00:49:24.190

He went 47. Okay, so where you I saw Jackie Robinson came to Panama? The 1947 do toe segregation again. The Dodgers couldn't do spring training in Florida because of Jackie Robinson. So they did a lot of the spring training in Havana, Cuba on day came to Panama.

00:49:24.770 - 00:49:45.180

They came not only with Jack Graham. They came with about four black players. Jackie Robinson, Dan Bank. It was on a team, right? Campanella on right part law, four Bloods. But they couldn't do spring training in Florida, so they had to do spring training in Havana, Cuba, and in Panama.

00:49:45.190 - 00:50:02.580

Uh oh. And so you saw them in Panama? Yes. Wow, we did. A lot of people come out to see them. Was that a yes? People came out, came out So a lot of people were interested in baseball. It's Yes, Mama. That was That was one of our primary sports in Fatima.

00:50:02.590 - 00:50:26.600

The Yankees came there in 90 days off training games there in 1946 to with Joe DiMaggio and these guys. So we saw some good talents. Then they used after where they had the Caribbean. Siri's where the every winter ball pretty become from other Latin countries on plus Siris in different countries.

00:50:26.610 - 00:50:56.220

Panama A little A few times. What positions did you play in baseball? I used to catch catch our souls. And when? When did you start playing baseball? Great. Start playing this far from over 10 or 11 years old again. The exposure to the canals only We used to go there, watch the games, get the crap bats.

00:50:56.230 - 00:51:24.900

And then we would stadiums were burnt like these modern stadiums. Full balls will come on the outside. We're not out there and collect the fall balls? Uh huh. Very. Yeah. And then you could play with the ball way are dozens of bars, man. Sometimes when we go to the games, instead of watching the game, we just decide we're going by the Communist behind there on every time a football come over with me and my gang, we get dozens of bottles.

00:51:25.460 - 00:51:51.710

Yeah, and so you started playing baseball? About 10. You're about 10 or 11. Yeah. Were there other sports that were popular in Rainbow City at that time? Ah, little soccer. Replace some sucker, not as much. And volleyball, playing a lot of doubt into school, track and field.

00:51:51.720 - 00:52:13.530

That was That was very popular, that we had some pretty good runners. But again, it was left to compete between just covered schools. The white schools didn't want. They did everything on their own. Even they Everything was black and white, but that's the way we knew it.

00:52:13.540 - 00:52:34.270

And that's the way we accepted it. Even they are the railroad Panama Railroad that trained that run between the Atlantic and the Pacific side. You had one section white, the baggage car in the middle of next sex and black next to the engine. Just like the United States.

00:52:34.280 - 00:53:00.190

Uh, yeah. When did you come in? The supermarkets are the commentaries. You know, we are those in the black communities goes in a white communities. But most of the employees now beside the supervisors are blacks. If you work in the white commissaries, you could shop there if you worked here.

00:53:00.650 - 00:53:15.770

If you don't work that you can shop there. On what? We don't work there. We go in. If you're going to shop, you go into our early. You select what you want, you pay for it. They put a tag on it and they leave it. So when you leave, you pick it up.

00:53:16.950 - 00:53:38.890

So that allowed That allowed them to maintain the illusion of segregation. Yes, that's that's the way. But unless you work here, you couldn't shop there. Were there differences in the types of items you could purchase in a different commissaries? Some of the stuff in the white comments, areas where other stuff that we didn't purchase.

00:53:38.900 - 00:54:10.830

You know what I can remember When it started out the data system where they didn't have money, use a coupon book used to call it commissar balls. In other words, these coupons were, uh, meant a small pieces. I think they inter sense there was that much and they would subtly coupon books.

00:54:10.840 - 00:54:28.960

And you buy purchase with that? Our it was part of your pay. In other word, used to get paid once a month. They used to pay the people with coins. I remember you saw what you call the pay car come down and 1/10 of the month park on the people Go get the cash.

00:54:29.340 - 00:54:59.360

But during the month, if you need money, you could get a commissary. Book was in five or $10 denominations, but at the end of the month, and they deducted from your salary. Oh, and so they would just pay you once a month once a month. Okay, but the system was kind of I was kind of know that I know determinedly like a socialistic system.

00:54:59.740 - 00:55:23.880

The people that worked on live on the canal zone, anything that wanted represented this ID number and they got it. Credit in the commissary, the rent, the light telephone. If you go to the hospital lab. Ilya on when? That month Come there. Just the doc. Everything from your salary.

00:55:24.110 - 00:55:47.280

So what you get is the spin I see. So it created a kind of dependency, especially, and all the people. But the older people didn't have a retirement system. Their work out After 45 years, they were. They call it pension, but they didn't contribute nothing into it.

00:55:47.290 - 00:56:09.990

So the government would give them a dollar for every year that they work. So if you work for the five years, you get $45 a month. Mhm. That doesn't seem like a lot of money and that those were people that worked in the Canal Zone work for the Panama Canal Company for years on those that live on the zone.

00:56:10.000 - 00:56:30.830

It hurts them more because the useless, socialistic side of life where when they get paid, everything is taken care of. Get off a worry about paying rent, anything like that, just buy food. But after they no longer work for the Panama Canal Company, they had to move out the court.

00:56:30.840 - 00:56:51.410

The other thing that was provided, most of them are the sick chosen in the Republic of Panama. No, they have to go to Panama and pay a red. But now so I usedto not pain. A lot of them moved to Panama. Next thing they're in problems, they get a $45 a month and they do everything else and they don't pay.

00:56:51.420 - 00:57:08.210

Then they end up with problem not living anywhere and things like that. Some of them went back to the to the West Indies on their country, but that was a sad part of it, because these people paid with their lives, they're on their forefathers that build a canal.

00:57:08.570 - 00:57:32.710

And that was the gratitude. $45 a month after that, no longer leave them. What's it? Mm hmm. Except for my father. Didn't work for five. You took sick. I think he used to get $30. $30 a month. Yeah. And your father had worked in the canal zone?

00:57:32.720 - 00:57:55.690

Yes, he was. He was a land Sheiman. Oh, you say in the canal zone with ships. Once the ships get into the canal waters, the captain is no longer in charge. Panama Canal Pilot takes over. The ship crew is no longer in charge. Cannot see men.

00:57:55.700 - 00:58:17.450

Border ship does the work of the crew. And that's the work that your father Yes, he was a lunch. Semen. The lunch no. Takes the pilots and go to the ship because the ships don't stop. And so is the ship. Is his work he beyond the ship as the ship was going through the canal?

00:58:17.460 - 00:58:37.640

Yeah, they do all the time up to the muse. Something like that. Oh, that's right. That's when back when they had. Now I've seen pictures. And of course, when I was there, it was It was a different system in the mid eighties, But back in those days, they actually had mule.

00:58:37.640 - 00:58:55.230

They still do. They still dio. And I didn't know that your ship don't when the ships isn't the locks, it doesn't go through on its own power, right? The mule is is a drag it true. Okay, so I was thinking it was the train. Well, the music is like it's like little locomotives.

00:58:55.240 - 00:59:18.050

Okay. Okay. See, I was thinking of riel meals. Yeah. Okay. Thistles the mule. Okay. Okay. So this is the mule. And I did see those things. The ship goes through the locks on this without any power. It's fully true. Okay, on these seamen no have to keep it taut from boxing on each side.

00:59:19.220 - 00:59:49.600

That's a difficult job, because the ship, you have to keep it right in the middle. Wow. And so your father did that for about 30 years working the show. Did he ever talk about his experiences like early in life? Do you remember ever him talking about or your any parents or elders talking about family history?

00:59:49.600 - 01:00:19.310

Really? You grew up in San Andres, and he was in his thirties or something when he met my mom. So E didn't know much about it. I met some of my uncles, but this my grandparent's from my father's side. I don't know. Okay, but it sounds like that some of the families in Rainbow City had a connection to their earlier communities in the West Indies.

01:00:19.310 - 01:00:54.090

Yes, some of them did, Uh, what were some of those connections or what? What kind of role did that play in Rainbow City having a connection to the West Indies? Well, um oh, the western. Your way of life, for one, the food, the customs, were there certain countries that had mawr that people had more connection to.

01:00:54.100 - 01:01:24.530

But what I what? I phone where I was growing up. Well, mostly Barbadians. A lot of the people that I grew up around came from the Barbera's. Okay, a few from Jamaica. But a big majority of people that I grew up around from Barbara. Barbara. And do you still keep contact in contact with with high school friends, or you contact with quite a few.

01:01:25.480 - 01:01:43.070

Although most of them e already gone. You know, e looking at my high school. A lot of not much. I must leave. Really. But over the years, it sounds like people did have a sense of community. Yeah, we did. For even even in the fire department.

01:01:43.070 - 01:02:02.050

After we retire and came here, we used to have a re union every year. But then the guys that started it died out. The younger is the one don't participate. So it just do it. No, on then. Most of the guys that started it died. Yeah, Most of us is up there.

01:02:02.050 - 01:02:51.400

In early eighties, early eighties, I lost some things low seventies. Okay? Yeah. This'll is really an amazing story of really struggling toe in your life. There's been an example of struggling to overcome inequality and trying to achieve a sense of justice and fairness and did, um And then when you were working a Zaha firefighter, Mr Hudson, you became a sergeant in the mid 19 sixties or you're saying 19 sixties 66 7 66.

01:02:51.400 - 01:03:14.140

Okay. And so you were in charge of at that point? Three engines, Uh, engine company engine company. Okay. And then from being a sergeant, uh, in in the late sixties, where did you go next? In terms of your career, Um, I end up being a lieutenant for a year.

01:03:14.150 - 01:03:36.640

Was a temporary position. Went after the tree went into effect. So I was a lieutenant the last year on the job. So that was in 1979. It was 79. Yes. Okay, nine the lieutenant. Then I was with a lot of the lieutenant the sergeant. I was in charge of a company that I signed up for the day.

01:03:36.650 - 01:03:59.820

But the lieutenant I was in charge of a station which comprised of two ships. I say which which station? I was in charge of Cocoa Salido Fire station on on the days when they are the senior officer is like a k a day. I would act as a acting captain for the day, I would go into the Central station.

01:04:00.690 - 01:04:24.200

When you're in the central station you're in. You're in charge of the entire district. That's the Central station with two companies on a ambulance outfit. Plus the other companies, which was Cocoa Salido cartoon for Chairman, plus the dispatching and the clerical. So when? When? When I worked at the acting captain.

01:04:24.210 - 01:04:46.290

That's what I e Yeah. What were some of your challenges when you were, um, active in acting captain and Lieutenant? I mean, how did your life change at work? What were some of the things that you had to deal with? Well, um, the responsibility was there.

01:04:46.290 - 01:05:07.830

And then one of the things that you deal with tooism some of the guys that you come up with, you get that closeness on. Then there are times where you have to put that apart, and it can be difficult. Some of them don't accept it. You really have to take charge.

01:05:07.840 - 01:05:32.100

Yes. Okay. Even my own brother. You work. You work at the fire Department on at times, they were slightly conflict because we have a different personality, you know. Right, Mr Hudson How did the I know over time in dealing with fires and situations, you know the technology might change a little bit.

01:05:32.110 - 01:05:58.370

What kinds of experiences did you have? I mean, how did firefighting change in the sixties and seventies? But, um, basically, it was the same, but in this in the sentence, we took over the ambulance score. So we have to get into the medical part of it, get certified as E.

01:05:58.370 - 01:06:22.210

M. T s. So you had to do more medical? Yes. And then way. Handle a lot of shit fires in the canal zone. So what happened to we had to be familiar with ships? Oh, they are built. Oh, the Congress stored, for example. We have a we get a ship fired.

01:06:22.210 - 01:06:40.410

The first thing we want to know is the manifest. What's in Chicago? Holes. Things like that. Oh, yeah. Excuse my ignorance, but how do you if if a ship is in the is in the water, how do you get? I mean, how do you fight that fire?

01:06:40.410 - 01:07:01.870

I mean, where do you How do you bring the hose out? How do you, um, in the canal area? We have talked bullets which they used the doctor ships and on every one of the talk, goats are equipped with a fire pump on fire fighting equipment Way Check a, maintain it.

01:07:01.870 - 01:07:17.420

Every month we goes out on driven the cruise, the fire, both the fire dog cruise. We grill them on fire fighting that they would assist us on. If you have a ship. The first thing that we do we call the port Captain because he's in charge of the talks.

01:07:17.420 - 01:07:36.620

Ready? We roll down to the docks. Get on the tugs go! Oh, I see. So they you have specially trained fire tug crews? No way were the firefighters. We just trained the tugboat cruise to assist us guys that work on the chalkboard. But we use the talk Both sides that way.

01:07:36.630 - 01:07:57.210

In case of fires, we use the talk. Both of the words. I see a way out. Equipment that we placed their maintained. We make sure their working conditions on the attack the total scale without fire pump. So they have on the tug ship itself. There's a fire pump.

01:07:57.680 - 01:08:28.050

Um where is the water coming from? His 30 from the sea. Okay, I see. I didn't I didn't even think about. So you're using seawater. You drafted from the UK? Are there any types of fires where you don't want to use seawater? Or can you use seawater with all types of well, when you see what we all want to see, what choice you electrical and we are dry chemicals, which we usually don't have the time to see.

01:08:28.410 - 01:08:52.900

But okay, because I was thinking sometimes if you have a stove fire Yeah, well, that's right. You can't use a water on that. Yeah. Yeah. What kind of you're mentioning as you were kind of moving up the ranks in your career? Um, in the kind of in the background, there were treaties and changes occurring.

01:08:53.270 - 01:09:20.890

Um, what kind of impact did the 17 1979 treaty having on your life and people in Rainbow City? Well, what happened? A lot of people that changes in the housing for one, the hoses that were reserved for the whites were open. No. Did the lock up to the black that they wanted it?

01:09:20.900 - 01:09:44.290

A lot of rents for iron, because this is a time nowhere in the canal zone started to face. So that stop important workers from the state has started to fill the jobs with the local talent. So the white started get smaller and smaller. It becomes kind of in the community to become more integrated if you wanted it.

01:09:45.790 - 01:10:10.540

I see. So So the segregation. That's really part of the impact of that treaty. Eyes that the segregation is beginning to kind of be phased out. That was part of it. Okay. Did you see in terms of at that time now, you were no longer working with civic Council or you kind of e I was still the up when I left.

01:10:10.540 - 01:10:33.730

I was still a part of it. Okay, So were you trying to? Were you still working on issues like housing And yes, but these weren't serious issues anymore, because you could move into the better else's if you wanted. The rents are a little more, but, you know, did you hear complaints from white individuals about that way?

01:10:33.730 - 01:11:05.390

Always have that. You know, you always have of whites that complaint like that. But it sounds like they were moving to the states because, for example, um, or that there when we went out a fire department, we just wrote back on the changes came that I have a picture of your where one day I look at it and we were in charge of the entire district for two days.

01:11:05.390 - 01:11:43.760

Just all blacks, Which at the time, when the iron is 56 they thought that would have never happened. But I have a picture with off five officers. She Oh, you are all black. Oh, so this way were changing shifts. Way we're all black. He was captain of the Group Four subjects.

01:11:43.770 - 01:12:18.050

Were you struck? Oh, wow. This is from the 19 seventies. Yes. This is 1979. All I ask here, that's why I like that. That's really nice. Yeah. You have your values. Oh, and I see the e m t. You're talking about that? There's a lot of changes.

01:12:18.650 - 01:13:09.700

Sorry. It waas that's made back its What was the president among from my retirement? I don't know exactly what me That's where it has. So you're retired in 1980? Yes. Oh, there's your family members. Uh, remember. Remember, there was one picture I was looking at. Where was this?

01:13:09.710 - 01:13:40.580

E Think I lost my place here? Yes. What? Yeah, correct. No, I lost my place. I was looking at a picture. I was gonna ask you a question. I can't remember what it was. But so Mr Hudson, he retired in 1980. Um and did you continue to live in Rainbow City?

01:13:40.590 - 01:13:58.290

Migrated to the United States? I lived in New York. Okay, so but you move when you retire. Okay? What part of New York did you live in? Queens and Queens. Okay. And had you planned Thio move once he retired? Or was that something? Yes. What happened?

01:13:58.290 - 01:14:22.130

I had planned to move because all my kids were living here in the United States. They are migrated here, join the military and was living here. So most of your Children went into military service. You have three of them for you. I see. And what was retired?

01:14:22.130 - 01:14:43.800

Life like he did it. Well, um, he was kind of shocking because I'm coming here on vacation. I saw it different when I came here to live. I wonder what I was doing here. The changes was kind of drastic, you know, I was still pretty young.

01:14:43.800 - 01:15:07.270

I had to find a job. It wasn't a surplus. I thought it would have been, you know, I was a little They could well, the culture show what were some of the biggest cultural differences between life and Panama and then coming to the United States in the eighties.

01:15:09.040 - 01:15:40.360

Yeah, well, life in Paramount was a lot simple, with a lot simple and a lot cheaper. That's the big difference. Act in one of the big difference that shot me right away. Well, the cost of housing mhm housing is very expensive. And New York but also it could be very expensive and parts of Florida.

01:15:42.240 - 01:16:04.970

Now, do you ever have the opportunity, Thio, go to Panama? Yes, I've been a several times. How is it my wife go more than I do? The car models still live here. What were what have been some of the changes, or even some of the continuity ease in the country?

01:16:05.330 - 01:16:31.950

Well, what I'm impressed with is the roads improvement and the transits maker between Paramount along the road does improve the arm. The canal has improved things that building the country has improved us all since the Treaty. Of those things that's gotten a little more tough on some of the people actually the U.

01:16:31.950 - 01:16:55.110

S left. What country is coming back? There's the especially Panama City. Panama City is in a moment like like New York are Miami. Yeah. I don't know if you ever been back since you live I have been back since 1986. We need to go back. Yeah, I've heard it.

01:16:55.110 - 01:17:23.120

Z Really nice. See, when I was stationed there, we spent I only went to Panama City. Maybe once was wise, but yeah, I've heard It's very nice. That's the international highway has improved that you can go Even the Bocas del Toro from the international highway. One time the only way to Bocas was heroes by the sea while and I will the roads between Chiriqui and Bocas.

01:17:23.120 - 01:17:43.750

So you go right across. Oh, yeah, I remember. Didn't used to be a very e. Used to be a hard trip. Wow! What have been do you think? Do you have you kept in contact with any of the firefighters? We talked about how you had a re union.

01:17:44.230 - 01:18:02.390

Um when you have the reunions, what would you talk about? What would you kind of We were minutes on All times We have a dinner dance. We have parties with make tours because we used off Alternate. We have one here in Panama. One year in Miami.

01:18:03.520 - 01:18:34.160

That's right on. Did you have a Z? You were doing the re unions. Did you reflect on e mean earlier? We were talking about how some people looked at the treaty from the from a US kind of perspective. And they would say, Well, you know, Carter gave away the the the Cabot you, but it sounds like the many in the community you work with saw it differently.

01:18:35.020 - 01:19:15.160

Yeah, way restarted. Is there an effort to try to preserve this history? Um, even though you were saying that the reunion is kind of, uh, not as strong as it Wasat, one point is there are there still efforts to preserve them? The other day, one of the guys called me till you was thinking about getting together again instead of group in Panama was thinking about it, but I haven't heard back from him, but we have not already in for years now.

01:19:17.520 - 01:19:54.550

Okay, Well, if there are other individuals that you know that you worked with that would be interested in being interviewed, I'd be happy Thio to interview now. E, think about Vivian Smith. He lives in a You live say no born e could contact them. You and I And I was the first two guys that actually the clerk out of work in the fire department.

01:19:54.550 - 01:20:15.200

He wasn't one shift when I was on the auto. Okay, so we were, like beside the guys assigned on the truck that assigned somebody as a dispatcher Because we do not like here where you gotta call system. We handle everything. Our calls, everything came in. Oh, and you did all that job.

01:20:15.210 - 01:20:39.710

You have a switchboard on people work. Wow, That's a lot of work. Realize it That we sure did. So what happened there in this country where everything is separated on every group is specialized? We did it all. Even the fire companies here you've got You got the pumpers.

01:20:39.710 - 01:21:02.890

You got a lot of trucks. You have the rescue. But we took it all. One company did everything we did ladders. We did pumping. We did rescue. Yeah, Mr. Hudson, if there are people like I said, you know, if there are other individuals that might like to be interviewed, Um very interesting.

01:21:02.890 - 01:21:37.910

Could check with Vivian and see if he's interested. He is in metal born. I don't think I know how off living here in Florida right now. Most of them died. Well, Mr Hudson, are there other experiences you wanna talk about that we haven't haven't covered or Yeah, You see what E?

01:21:37.910 - 01:22:09.020

No, you have a meeting coming up. So I didn't wanna hurt women. Guess what we can talk about. You have anything todo good. I just My thing is, is when we're talking about this six or four riot. One of the things that's been overlooked most of the time that can be e.

01:22:09.400 - 01:22:38.820

Is that that 64 right? Came about because of the people in the republic. So the Children that started that right there were more sort of more educated than this canal zone. So the canal so kept kept us restricted with, you know, with education and everything. But in the Republics, all these colleges think there were more advanced, and it's the Children.

01:22:39.200 - 01:23:22.650

The college students from the republic is who started this whole thing because they on the outside looking in on, know that it's unfair. That's going on And I guess that's where you know started started because the canal zone, they are in your republic. And you have all this restriction like you're a foreigner and those are those college students are the ones, I guess something like in the in the Martin Luther King in that civil rights e think those were the people, Nobody in the canal zone because the people in the canal Zone thought it was okay.

01:23:22.660 - 01:23:40.510

They didn't know no other life and to them or she said to us, way were getting the better part of because the people that lived in the kind of don't even thought that they were better than the people that live in it. You know that certain privileges.

01:23:41.200 - 01:24:02.660

But you on the outside looking in your sample. What's this This is my country on? I guess that's how the guys decided to put your flag beside yours because you are in Panama. Why is an American flag flying? And my flag is not fine and it's my country.

01:24:02.680 - 01:24:27.850

That's what started that that riots on DSO Because of that. A lot of the changes then because I'm not a lives were lost a not a riot, just like the same result we get here when we riot or when you fight. After that changes begin, say it.

01:24:27.850 - 01:24:55.830

But it Z it was. It's an interesting topic, but it's needs to be much brother, so we only look at the cannot zone part of it because that's what your interview is about or the whole. But it z more than you have to get into another area with different people with that part of it.

01:24:55.840 - 01:25:47.050

But that riot started because off that the Canal Zone or the American they in Panama and they think that Panama belongs to them. Yes, ma'am Andi, the people that born and lived there and being dedicated to the education system in Panama, in the Republicans, more advanced in the Canal Zone, way more events because the the canal zone kept us in the A B C 123 But you know you're doing colleges and these guys were more educated, so they are seeing more than what we are seeing in this bubble right here.

01:25:47.240 - 01:26:08.290

And that's what really I just wanted Thio stress that that's a very important part of that history, because that's what started because even when I was stationed at Fort Davis. And like I said, we only most of the time I was there. I was in other countries.

01:26:08.290 - 01:26:32.890

But I do remember the college students from Panama City would do protest once a week and it would shut down that highway way. Never, really. I mean, I at that time I was so focused on, you know, the job I had and most the time out of the country.

01:26:32.900 - 01:26:54.390

But out here about this and I can remember asking people, you know, of course, I was 19 or 20 at the time. And I would say, Well, why Air? The and I had never been to college, and I would say I would ask. Older people will wire the students protest ing and they would say, Well, they're always complaining about something, you know, about something.

01:26:54.400 - 01:27:18.850

Just complaining about the interference right off the whole thing. Because those guys were in universities, not high school. They're done with high school. They you know, they're university, so they are educated, you know, more advanced. I'm saying so. And they're looking in there. They're seeing they can't get no jobs because only these white people they?

01:27:18.860 - 01:27:48.890

They're not expanding anything. You can't you're trespassing. And that's one of the things with Korea's. The Carter treated Tereus is saying I cannot be trespassing or loitering in my own country. It's impossible. This is my country. How are my lawyer or trespassing? If I cross alive, right?

01:27:49.780 - 01:28:11.150

And the people in the canal zone, they could go. That could cross. They couldn't get arrested for loitering. Because you you you in my section Now you get. But if I come from over here toe over here, you pick me up on some trust us and our lawyer.

01:28:11.150 - 01:28:34.220

And And that was one of the things that started this old thing I say because it was crazy. You there are these American soldiers came that stationed in the cancel. They go over to Panama color. They commit, you know all kinds of crime and think on the canal zone.

01:28:34.220 - 01:28:53.900

Police commentate If if the If the police picked them up, let's say they do something. Are you? Arrest them the canal zone, the MPs and then come and get them and bring them started back home. You can't touch them. You can't punish them for none of the crimes that they did.

01:28:53.970 - 01:29:11.680

But on the other, if I come over here now, you arrest me. My people can't come and get May, um, stuff and some of the inequalities. Those are the things that the people were looking at and you know, you studying it and it doesn't seem right.

01:29:12.170 - 01:29:42.980

And that's one of the reason why those guys were always always protested, Tim, that got all the bases covered because after what both flags was planning, because this is my country, I they're not done that it would have just stayed down because the American people never wanted to leave Panama because they live like kings on Queens in Panama.

01:29:42.990 - 01:30:08.570

They didn't want to leave when that treated over there. There, some of them kill themselves because they're coming back to the U. S. Toe the regular life now. But in Panama, they have made they have somebody wash my mother wash my I mean a particular but somebody garden toe, wash the cars and have to watch the kids.

01:30:09.260 - 01:30:29.690

Everything was here and I can't afford it. So they were like queens and kings, and they didn't. They never wanted that. Treated to go into thick they never want anything on. When they decided to leave, they destroy a lot of the things when they dig. There weren't that nice either.

01:30:30.460 - 01:31:05.960

You know, that destroyed a lot of the things that you know. There's a lot of things that didn't do. But that's water under the bridge, so to speak. That's just part of the history. But it was a struggle. What did they what did they destroyed? I mean, some of the things that they did because they had a lot of minds and landmines and stuff in garlic and those places they had and they never what you say, the tone them or take them out are you know, they didn't destroy them.

01:31:05.970 - 01:31:25.070

They just sort of just left them there. A lot of military supplies, things that that shouldn't be exposed today, you know, they're not try public. That just left it because I guess they were angry too. They didn't want to leave. So, you know, there's a lot of little things that we really don't know.

01:31:26.260 - 01:31:52.130

You know, the old inside of it because, you know, you don't know what the people in the republic can tell you. Some of the differences, You know that destroyed along called it destroyed. But I guess when they're getting ready to leave the stop maintaining, like, let it run down, you know, because we live in It's sort in that, you know, in 99.

01:31:52.130 - 01:32:13.480

And you know, that sort of hurt the country somewhat, too, because a lot of people depended on a lot of jobs were in Los because at least four people in the republic working for one person that because, you know, I'm the garden, I'm the car washed.

01:32:13.490 - 01:32:31.440

So at least four people have jobs. So when they left really, really hurt the economy because a lot of people are all the jobs, you know, toe to a certain degree. But no, it is what it is. But and then what year was the invasion happened?

01:32:31.440 - 01:33:04.050

And 89 89? No even talk about that invasion that that was so horrible, but that that falls in tow. August politics against between government because the people really had nothing to do with it, needed a kind of zone or the people's Republic That was between the Bushes and the Noriega, that type of politics.

01:33:04.050 - 01:33:26.340

It, uh, what is affected the country. A lot of people time were killed. A lot of people lost their lives in 89 on for no reason. I was shocked because I had left. I left in 1986 and I was living in Washington State. And when I heard about the invasion, it was really shocking.

01:33:26.340 - 01:33:48.760

Terrible. I mean, it was it was terrible for one person, you know, destroyed because they really destroyed Panama big time in that invention, but, you know, kind of building up from it. But a lot of lives were lost. You know, a lot of destruction and also what you know.

01:33:49.450 - 01:34:12.880

Sorry. Asses. Mommy, You guys still alive that invaded Panama? They took him. I'm brought into Miami and had him in prison. All I have learned some self while you destroy Panama and take this 11 person because it wasn't any problem that we're having with with Panama are nothing is just the politics.

01:34:14.140 - 01:34:49.950

But so, yes, it's back in Panama. I mean, Noriega is back in Panama. So, you know, at the end of the day, it came full circle. If he's right about your final on all of that for what? That e guess that's another. I really appreciate your your insights because, as you can imagine, these air very different, um, insights than we've gotten from some of the other individuals.

01:34:50.540 - 01:35:22.560

It looks like roses all around. But it wasn't easy. It really it. It really wasn't easy. And this that segregation thing because I lived in the towns on to my father was one of them that really was against. He went to jail because he cuffed them one of those white guys one day, you know, because there's some of them rude, you know that your bosses But they you know, you send your kids to the commissary.

01:35:22.570 - 01:35:47.440

And if that's to them coming in commissary more than once or twice there, ready to stop them to question them and you have all rights to be there. But you know what? I guess The mentality. I don't know. What was that e. I was gonna ask a question about segregation, and when did you first become aware that about about segregation?

01:35:47.450 - 01:36:05.980

Was it something your parents or was it like like you was an individual? What was your first? That's after you grow. You realize it's on your own your parents didn't know nothing about your parents and, you know, just, you know, just accepted. Oh, well, life didn't see that segregation, because you really didn't.

01:36:05.990 - 01:36:34.560

But when you look back in retrospect, know that you you step back looking in, right? But that's what it waas it. That's what you're saying. That your father, at a certain point you work for them. We lived on the canal zone, too, but I'm saying he that was just an experience with my younger brother.

01:36:34.570 - 01:36:50.770

He sent him to the commissary, you know, to get something, And you forgot. My father sent it back and the inspector stopped him. You know, I wanted to know what we have to call my father when my father came down. And you don't matter why why you stopped him.

01:36:50.780 - 01:37:25.240

It's not like he's stealing or anything. I send him back. And some argument that they arrested Amanda. Uh, e O s. So your dad went down to the commissary? Thio old my brother is a minor. Yeah. We owe you hit a video, but there are a lot of people that didn't agree with it, But you had no choice.

01:37:25.250 - 01:37:51.960

That's the way I live way beyond you went at most of the women especially. I said women. They encourage their husband toe work for the Panama Canal because you get housing. You know, after you get your housing, you can breathe outside of relief because you're racist pain because they controlled you.

01:37:52.330 - 01:38:07.440

You weren't a man. I mean, that's my looking back. They took care of everything. They pay the rent to pay. You like to pay your telephone? They pay you. Did your pay you that? So at the end of the month, where you work that give you this?

01:38:07.450 - 01:38:24.530

That's just for you to spend their already taken off all their expenses. They gave you no response, no sense of responsibility. So the women love that. Because at least I know they don't have to worry and not to read this pain on. And I guess I look at a test of that.

01:38:25.620 - 01:38:56.530

Right? Um Alright. Alright, everybody. You wanted that. So you think it was a good thing? You think it's a good thing? I don't My rent this pain, I'm living in this nice little house. And so too. So you didn't see anything wrong with it until you grow now when you step back and him when he got integrated in.

01:38:56.530 - 01:39:13.280

The fire department already has grown now, so you can't see the difference. He's a little more educated and then you can see. But something is not right. But it's still accepted because he's still in a better position than the other guy now, because he's a firefighter.

01:39:14.090 - 01:39:38.450

Andi stepped up a little bit, so he's not looking at it from that perspective too much because it is benefiting him and his family or most of the guys. Not in a particular but the other man is still looking in. I'm fussing, but it was just a way of life.

01:39:39.120 - 01:40:01.240

Andi. It was for the better. It did good. It was a good for most of the people that lived in the Canal Zone because I'm telling you up to today we have a set of friends that he grew up with. All of them grew up in the same community where they're me.

01:40:01.250 - 01:40:35.980

That's all they talk about. And they thought that that life in the Canal Zone was it. They all know nothing else. They knows nothing else but that little community. And sometimes I'm amazed. When I listened to them, they thought this discussion of this argument They only remember the people that live in these four buildings that you know in the Canal Zone.

01:40:35.990 - 01:41:12.590

Yeah, they believe they thought that their world different. Many people that even the cousins and because you know it's not Everybody lives in the canal zone. You know, your cousins and things live in Europe. They taught themselves different. They, they, they they felt a little more privilege, privilege a e never a never even expose themselves with a Panamanian cultures.

01:41:12.600 - 01:41:37.930

Some of my friends that I did because I e went to Colon. I played amateur baseball in Cologne, so I was more into the republic. But I have a lot of friends that e Republic of Panama. That's within the cardinals. They don't realize I e don't even consider them e they that they're so brand.

01:41:37.940 - 01:42:09.330

I call them Bread waas. They're so brainwashed that they does not consider themselves Panamanian. They have this notion that there from the canal Zo try T o Canal Zone is column. It's cool. It's incredible. Good, you hear and you won't believe it. But the American, the white man and the Americans didn't know it did a great job on them.

01:42:09.900 - 01:42:33.230

Did a great job, the well indoctrinated. I call it brainwashed, But well, isn't that how colonialism works? In a way, because, you know, the colonial power, whether it's the British or the French, the Americans, you convince one small segment that you're better than Yeah. Yeah, that's all.

01:42:33.230 - 01:43:05.770

It waas kind of divide and conquer conquer in a way way. Have a meeting here with a few. You would have a interested Ducati. Oh, fascinating. It's just it was just one of those things. Well, they do stick together until today. Most of them. You're seeing that because we have our re union.

01:43:05.780 - 01:43:33.660

Because right now I'm getting ready to go to Panama in February. I'm from the class of 64. We're having our 50th, um, 50th reunion. Congratulations way have every year. That's true. All the classes me All every year we have everything. This is about 58 years, so we're doing that sort of big spray that'll be in Panama City, Panama City.

01:43:33.670 - 01:43:59.760

Wow, that'll be fine. But they stick together that way. All keep in communication because I'll tell you, we were like a separate set of people per se. You know, we thought we were No. I realized we weren't very just regular people, but e have my brothers and sisters.

01:43:59.760 - 01:44:22.840

They went to school in the Republic. I didn't go. I went to Canal Zone. But you're not going to get older. You send them to school. You know, it's a big difference. Big difference. But it's all good. And I don't know if I have any regrets looking back, but things could have been better, but it was what it waas you know?

01:44:22.850 - 01:44:45.590

What are you going? Thio? Moving far? It's not gonna happen again so that that's not gonna happen. These kids are way more educated, were more wear Maurin form, and they're not well tolerated. Not this new. Yeah, that means I'm gonna have segregation and you will always have.

01:44:45.600 - 01:45:09.360

But if you notice it's it's totally toned down big time. They don't have no outright segregation. You open them up to do so on the d l e understanding for that people. You know you well, even when people talk about the silver and gold wages E.

01:45:09.370 - 01:45:34.120

I mean, that's something that's so blatant that but they didn't see this, That Yeah, our parents, they don't. Then they didn't see. That's that. Tow them. At least there, this civil group was better than the group that's in the republic. So I'm still a little better than John.

01:45:34.490 - 01:46:03.080

In other words, the gold man is better than Silver Man way Bear with the Superman. Still think is better than the man that lives in the republic. So I'm not feeling anything because I'm doing okay here in my silver. I'm moving up the gold soon. I'm just saying, but I'm comfortable here.

01:46:03.090 - 01:46:32.400

And the thing is silver. So I'm not seen any type of segregation. I'm not seeing that. I'm just seeing myself being in a better position than the other guy back there. But again, as after you step back and look, then you see the the segregation. You know, you have these fountain.

01:46:32.400 - 01:46:54.520

I didn't I didn't know that Just found that this gold fountain but the Goldwater's air cold. But you don't realize that you can't e I don't even know that you want came straight from the fussing. Yeah, like in public places. Er a water fountain. Mm. Cold water here.

01:46:54.530 - 01:47:17.210

Silver. Oh, And that was how it was labeled. Yeah, Silver. You can't drink from me. Go like nice and cold. I'm from the silver. I know I'm not to go over there, but it doesn't Even I don't know it occurred. Thio Enemy are the silver to step over by going and just tried.

01:47:17.460 - 01:47:34.640

They never did. They know that the silver is the earth. They stay in their silver lane and the gold stain in the only. So it wasn't. It wasn't labeled like it was in the because, you know, in the U S. Would be labeled Negro and white.

01:47:34.650 - 01:47:57.870

No, this was still a okay, e. They weren't so label, but silver and gold A. But you already know you have been told that silver is yours. You know this because nobody on this from the silver side never make a mistake. I dropped on the goal.

01:47:58.780 - 01:48:23.560

So you know, the goal was generally refrigerated. A off water fountain, electric cool water. Civil funding was just a little speak a way. Have it's interesting is when I teach about segregation in the United States. I'll show students there's a photograph, a lot of photographs of water, separate water fountains.

01:48:23.560 - 01:48:37.250

And there's one photograph I used. When I talk about, I'll ask the students what was segregation and let's say, Well, you know, it's just we've been told by our parents, and a lot of times these were white students. Oh, they just kept people separate. But it was equal.

01:48:37.260 - 01:48:55.690

I said, No, no, no, I said, Look at this photograph. There's a photograph of a white water fountain. It's refrigerated. And then the colored water fat as it was titled Eyes just like you're saying spigot. You could see it's It's not even the term segregation makes me a little uncomfortable.

01:48:55.690 - 01:49:18.470

I, I used often say, Well, it was in inequality, you know, It was a system designed, but even in the US, there would be the way the system sometimes worked with, with a few people privileged would be given certain privileges, um, within a community, a city like Miami or Atlanta on.

01:49:18.470 - 01:49:42.380

Then they would be kind of deputized to try to keep the rest in control. Yes, yeah, so similar to a colonial system. A little different some ways, but a lot of similarities. That's just so it waas. That's just Oh, it waas even when the Ronaldo started this civic Council told you about.

01:49:42.390 - 01:50:09.570

I think that was the intent, the group in the city council to keep the rest under control and maybe to see some, maybe to control the changes that were occurring but to keep them from moving too far towards equality. Exactly. But there were always people that saw it different, you know?

01:50:09.580 - 01:50:33.880

Yeah, people that I guess I'm certain purpose is in life born. And those guys, they they saw it, they could they could see Bladen when they try to do something about it. You know, like anything is they get thrown in jail and but in a nice, quiet way Not in this, like in the civil rights time.

01:50:33.960 - 01:51:04.380

Not that type, because Panama was not that type place. Anyway, People are more subdued and more so, but people got jail and people got fired and people got, you know, another thing got punished for trying. But just in a quiet way, it was It was just a few, you know, But people were always people always saw something wrong with it.

01:51:05.660 - 01:51:58.080

But just the people that were weren't part of it is who's seen the wrong the people. That's part of it. They don't see. They comfort they. The Children is okay. Yeah. And so but the other man, he's looking like what? What's going on? You know, then because some even my lovely the kids and economist on their eventually went to school in the republic because they knew that education was better Folk line that and a lot of them decided to send them school that you went to school in City Republic Kalata my my tree because the education was much, much, much, much better More advance.

01:51:59.560 - 01:52:27.280

So when they cannot zone, you know, in itself it wasn't all that. Yeah, the oh, it was changing. Your and your Children went to school in the republic, might treat the youngest one e o Republic on. That was something you wanted to dio because they wanted it.

01:52:27.250 - 01:53:03.730

The Even when the Latin American school converted, the Spanish wasn't that good. So my kids went to college a robbery in the republic that was predominantly Spanish and was a better better? Uh, yeah, a e throughout. Was it that education system? Most important, it can counsel, you know, that's listing, but it was It was for something else.

01:53:03.740 - 01:53:30.390

It's unbelievable when you sit back and look, it's like we were, really? But you weren't beaten and you weren't hang, you know? You know, they didn't put no old no dog. And you didn't have that type of thing because that people weren't rebelling. They they just was living.

01:53:31.750 - 01:54:12.640

They thought that they were doing good. They were in a good place. Did the yeah did the when, when the civil rights movement was happening in the United States and when some of the other anti colonial movements were happening? Did that start to have an impact on life in in Panama, where people kind of maybe younger people watching you, the younger ones is the one that that that start noticing the younger ones is, you know, noticing because the older one they they already accepted this way of life.

01:54:12.650 - 01:54:38.520

And that's the end of that. Some of them didn't know toe interact no other way. Where they left the canal zone. They lost. They don't know what todo because they when they shop in the commissary and they tell you they can't eat the rice from cologne because I'm only a custom toe, you know the right sort of milk.

01:54:38.530 - 01:55:01.750

It was ridiculous, but that's the way it waas. So when? When Andi, When? When the Americans finished with you. Then they throw you out. You gotta go. You. So you have to go down in this republic that you actually knows nothing about. You hardly go to call on most of them.

01:55:01.750 - 01:55:19.820

Go to the market, the big markets and stuff. But they don't. They don't. They don't go in and they don't work. You know, they don't know nothing. And then when you finish, you have to find a place in column. Where do I live? Because then I'm accustomed to this nice community.

01:55:19.830 - 01:55:39.460

You don't have the community college, you move in a building and you live on the you know. So it was a culture shock. Pregnant culture, shock. Some of them called crazy or decide to just go back to wherever that came from a region that they are.

01:55:40.840 - 01:56:11.360

You know, they mentioned they had to adjust. But it was difficult. Then that can handle mentality. Stay now. And that's all they can talk about. Nothing else. But they kind of cancel, cancel, But it gives them something to talk about everything with this too. Well, Mr Hudson, you told me that you had an appointment, and I don't want to keep you.

01:56:11.370 - 01:56:29.310

E wanted to ask you a favor to I My camera is not working, is there? Do you e o Can we take a picture together? Would that be Yeah. Possible? Okay.