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from Gainesville, Florida five. Live presents Conversation from the University of Florida, a discussion of social, political, scientific and religious issues of the day. Your host is Dr Michael Vegan and professor of history and Ethics, an assistant dean of the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences at the University of Florida.

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Hello and welcome to another conversation every Monday night, and this is our ninth year. We four gather here in the studios of Channel five in order to have a conversation with an interesting individual and the very few individuals I find more interesting than Philip Callahan, research entomologist with the United States Department of Agriculture and a member of the Department of Entomology of the University of Florida.

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Phil, welcome back to conversation. Thank you very much, Michael. It's good to be here again. I think it was about six or seven years ago that we came together here in the studios to have a little conversation about electricity and Tesla coils and things like that.

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And did you not put the terminals of some electrical system in my hand and generate an immense amount of voltage through me? What was that about? I've forgotten I must say, Well, I did. It was a Tesla coil, and, uh, it puts out about eight or 9000 volts, which ordinarily, you would think, would electrocute somebody.

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But it's harmless because instead of getting it 60 cycles, it's about 10 to 30,000 cycles. And biologically, it's very little amperage, so it doesn't harm you. So no amperage, but 8000 votes and I survived another conversation. And then four or five years ago, perhaps fewer than that, we got together to talk about your ingenious, as I thought it explanation for flying saucers or the sightings of flying saucers, which are either real or alleged.

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And your explanation I, as I as I remember, was as follows. There are certain times of the year in which bugs swarm an enormous groups, and they pass often at night through electrical fields, and in doing so, they achieve a certain luminescence that shows itself in pulsations of light and thus appears to be to the very imaginative layman looking up from the earth to be a very picture of a flying saucer, that is that correct?

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That's correct. And since then I've got more and more correlations with, uh, this is what I call them lit up insects and doesn't really take that much bullets to do it. Anywhere from several 100 to several 1000 votes will do it in the lab laboratory in which duplicate an electrical storm, which they'd be passing under a dry atmospheric conditions.

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And they light up light up quite easily. And in the last few years, I've correlated spruce Bud worm infestations all over the country with UFO sightings. So there's a good correlation between the sightings and later infestations of these insects. So I've got some pretty good proof that that's the way a lot of these sightings are.

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There was one swarm that you tracked out in the far West, and you called out, as I remember and asked, um, was there a swarm that passed along such and such a route? And then you ask the meteorologist, was there an electrical storm at this particular time you received affirmative answers and to you that explained why there was a remarkable number of sightings of alleged flying saucers all along that route.

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That's right. And that one time and that one about one month period, they had something like 200 sightings and during that time they had quite a few electrical storms. And right after that they had two minutes outbreaks of spruce budworm. So that was my first correlation.

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Find saucers, bugs, Bugs is flying saucers. I got a kick out of that story for a number of reasons, because two years after you and I were on this program and you gave your theory with the evidence for it, Walter Cronkite on the CBS Evening News made a very big deal out of this.

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And to think that our humble program conversation scoop CBS by two years is really quite remarkable makes you feel real good. There you go. Now what are you up to? Well, I I know one of the things that you're up to, and it's what we're going to talk about tonight, So let's get right into it, all right?

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I'm up to studying miracles, and I guess that's one of the things that seems to be getting a lot of newspaper headlines a day from what happened with the Shroud of Turin, which is totally inexplicable as near as we can tell. In fact, there's three good books out on it now, and over 30 scientists worked on that.

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So my effort isn't anywhere near as tremendous as that, because the miracle that I worked on and it's very strange the way it happened. Uh, friends saw me on TV actually talking about this insects as flying saucers on the, uh, Good Morning American show. And he's a philosopher and also understood a little about art.

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So he called up and said, Well, he would like to go down the Mexico to see if this Virgin of Guadalupe, which is another miraculous image like the Shroud of Turin, was really, uh, could be a miracle or if it was just a forgery. And although he's a philosopher, he understood that infrared radiation could be used to study it.

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And so, just on the spur of the moment, he and I flew down there, and one of the real miracles was that he and I together talk to Mexican government, which is very conservative in the Catholic Church, which is also a fairly conservative into taking that picture down for the first time and literally hundreds of years, actually taking it out of the glass frame.

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There's a lot of people studied it through the glass but taking out the glass frame. And we kept the officials down there, up from nine o'clock at night till five o'clock in the morning while I took 60 photographs and infrared radiation of it. Now let's tell the story of Our Lady of Guadalupe and of the picture, which appears on a cloak called Thelma.

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What is the basic story or legend behind the image? It's a beautiful story. Juan Diego was an Indian who had been converted to Christianity. And this is when about about 15 31 about nine years after Coronado landed, just shortly after nine years 15 31 and he'd been converted and he was walking along and he went by a hill called Tepeyac Hill.

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In fact, this is a rock from that hill. That's a piece that are knocked out of the hill itself. To test for some magnetic qualities of it. He approached his hill. Uh, he had a voice calling, and he stopped and he saw Beautiful lady, and she essentially, it's almost like the story of Lourdes said, I'd like you to go to the bishop and television.

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I want a church built here. So, of course, Juan Diego went on after Mass. He went up to see the bishop, and the bishop sort of condescendingly petted him on the head and said, Well, you know, that's a great story, but I don't I think we can do anything about it right now.

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So Juan Diego went back, and on the way back he was again saw this apparition on the hill and the Virgin talked to him again and, uh, said she would want him to really go ahead and try again a second time. So the next day, Juan Diego went back to the bishop and because the bishop this time said, Well, if you can bring me some sign which is almost again, like the story of Lourdes, you can bring me a sign of some type.

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Uh, you know, maybe we will investigate it further. On which is really, really is the philosophy of any religion that when you have a miraculous a clapping and the claim of a claim of a miracle takes a considerable amount investigation. So Juan Diego went back, but the third time, his uncle was sick, so he couldn't make it back the next day, and the Virgin showed up and said, Well, why didn't you go?

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And then the story goes on Well, because my uncle was very, very sick where he said, Don't worry about that. I'll take care of your uncle. So he went again and again. You got turned down. So finally, on the fourth try a total of original. I need some kind of a son, and the Virgin said we'll go to the top of the hill.

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This is Tepeyac Hill again, which is right now in Mexico City. Surrounds it. But then, of course, it would have been 10 miles the other side of the lake. Mexico City is built on. And, uh, this story goes in that there was birds singing there and he gathered.

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He found flowers growing in December. This was December 12th now which the feast that Mexicans celebrate. And he found these flowers and he picked him and put him in his Tilman Tilman as a cactus cloak made out of a plant called an agave plant. It looks almost like burlap, very crude sort of cloth.

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And he came down Virgin re arrange these flowers like a woman will do, and his Tillman said, Don't take those back to bishop. And when he went back to the bishop and he opened his cloak, then this image appeared. The flowers fell out. And of course, the bishop was surprised to see flowers in December.

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So that was one part of the miracle. The other part was imprinted on. The quote was a was a figure of the virgin, and that is essentially now, this is much better documented say, than the Shroud of Turin, which disappeared for about five or six. Know about seven centuries.

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Actually, this, uh, has been there in a church, not the not the present day basilica. And, uh, the smaller basilica and then the next one for a long period of times as well documented has never been moved. Yes, let's identify a few persons and things the Virgin alluded to, of course, is Mary, the mother of Jesus.

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Uh, the Shroud of Turin is a cloak believed to have covered the body of Christ after his execution by crucifixion at the hands of the Romans and which shows up in Europe very mysteriously some several centuries later and disappears for a time reappears. It's been the subject of intense scientific investigation within the last five years.

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But you were the first to be able to subject the timber or cloak of the, uh, the, uh, Mexican Christian convert with the image imprinted on it of Mary to some kind of scientific test. I wonder if this wouldn't be a good time to turn to the photographs so that we can see what we're talking.

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All right, all right, Let's do take a look at the first of the photographs. It's it's lying on its side so that we can cover as much of it on the normal television screen. Ordinarily, it would stand upright, as any figure would. Go ahead, fill and tell us what we have.

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As you notice. This is a very unique picture of the Virgin, and this is This is the original, as you could see it, photographed by myself from about 10 ft away without the glass on it. Several things you notice about it as as far as art is concerned.

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It's a Spanish Gothic figure that is, it's highly decorated. It's got a burst of light around it. It has, uh, stars on the battle the Blue Matal, and it's trimmed in gold and it has a sermon on the sleeves. You also notice that the face is very dark or Indian looking.

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Now, Uh, when you look at this face up close, it looks almost white. So one of the things that is astonishing about it, when you take the class off and you get like I did three or four feet away, 23 inches away, I took pictures from three inches to 4 ft away.

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The face itself, which is white when you're close to it as you back off, turns almost an Indian olive color. In other words, the colour you'd expect of an Indian. And therefore it's not in the pigment that it has to be a diffraction or a physical type, which again makes it very difficult to imagine somebody painting that type of thing.

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It's the same thing you get on certain birds and insects, where, instead of having a pigment as you shine light on it, you see a reflection of blue, light or green or any other color. It's a prismatic toward diffraction tonight, a light. Now if we go to the next when you get close again, you see that the blue of the battle is bright and beautiful as it would have been.

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There's no fading. There's also is no absolutely no varnish of any type over what's around it. The sunburst has obviously been added. And what I'm saying here is that using infrared radiation, of course, these are color slides and infrared wouldn't show up too good on your color monitor.

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So I don't have that we're using infrared. You can detect what was added and what was there. Originally, the blue was there. Originally, you can see the stars have been painted and some of them are fading because if you look at that painted afterwards afterwards, these were added.

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Uh, all of the Spanish Gothic decorations are not only cracking off and are fading, but we're obviously added afterwards because you can see through and see the original. Uh, are you the first one to discover Fill that that sunburst design along the bottom and the stars were added at a later date?

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Yeah, In fact, I'm the first one really did using use any recognized scientific technique, which is what? Infrared radiation? It's radiation. It's a It's a form of film, uh, in which you can detect for instance, where there's some of the pigments might be organic type or rather their mineral type.

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In other words, and as far as I could tell some of the some of the pigments, I can't even tell what they were. But none of them are organic type, and some of them you can see through so you can see through parts of it and see if there's, for instance, the drawing under it.

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Can we have the next? Here you see, the half moon, which is really an Indian symbol, is breaking away that the angel is very poorly painted, the face on the angels partly breaking away. You can see on the lower right hand corner there that the wings at one time went out further.

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In other words, they've been painted over and manipulated. You can also right where the angels hand is holding, even in color. You can see a very light line above that where the original a dress would be, and that this this was added to give something for the angel to hold on to so you can tell what was added and what wasn't that the angel was added.

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The angel was totally added, and certain portions of the garment were added. Of course you're the angel, right? So you have something to hold onto? Exactly. I'm going to have the next one, please. This again shows the wing a little better closer, and it also so some of the gold breaking away it shows again where the wing has been changed and painted over and made shorter.

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You can see the hand of the angel was very poorly done. In fact, the angel was obviously done by an artist who really wasn't up to par. Whether when you look at the face of this thing, in my opinion, is more beautiful and then the mano Liza, it's a face that really grabs you.

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It's got a beauty about it, and yet when you get up close, it looks almost like, uh, pure white. There's very little shadowing in it, and the other thing is, it takes advantage of the film itself. In some places, there's no there's no pigment of any kind at all, so it takes advantage of the of the Tillman to give it three dimensional effect on which the painting was right.

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The fabric on which is made can we have the next one. This shows my composite on the right or on the top. Rather where you see you can see I painted in much deeper color the Spanish Gothic decorations. The Tillman was sold right down the middle, and that line down the middle shows the break in the Tillman.

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The Indian Tillman was made in two pieces because they could only weave the cloth so wide. So they sold two pieces together. So we see that line from left to right. You see that line from left to right, right down the center, and there's a shadowing that looks almost when you look at it as just a shadow.

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And I painted it green, just for effect. That looks almost like an agave plant, in other words, the folds of the shadow and looked like a shadow cast and agave plant on the lower part. You see that the original image would have been without any decorations.

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Added to it would have been just a white face and a sort of rose white roses, white dress and then a blue light blue model. And that's the part that was original. Everything else above that break in the two of them would have been. It would have been added or painted on and is now cracking off.

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And there's no drawing under this. You can't see, but a There is a little sketch I did to show that any good portrait artist is going to do a drawing first. I've challenged several artists to make a portrait of me without drawing. And I haven't any takers yet, you know, And I'll sit here and post for three hours, and I want you to think a painting of me without drawing and drawing.

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All right. Very difficult to do so you can do it. So you find it extraordinary that there was no cartoon beneath the paint? Yeah. When you get into painting, this is one of my You can't see the head of it. But this is an Amazon. Parrot is one of my paintings.

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Did you want to show that that several painters have said Well, it must be oil. It must be this. It must be that. And I've painted since I was 12 years old. This is a watercolor in Science 83. They had an article on this and they called up somebody in Holland and art expert art experts as well.

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I don't believe in this work in first place. It might be a watercolor. It might be this. Or it might be that in other words, the criticism bordered on ridiculous because there's no way you could put a water color onto a piece of cloth like Gunny Sack and get a picture.

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You have to have very fine paper like I got here, and they say, This is my own painting. So I do understand art, and you cannot shadow or create depth or shadow or feathers like that or anything else with watercolor on a on a burlap back.

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Uh, it would be impossible. All right, let's go on to the next picture. Uh, this gets into again A little bit more of what I would call the philosophy of what we're talking about are in the Shroud of Turin and in this version of Guadeloupe, are we getting into an area where physics and metaphysics come together?

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Now, if you look at if you look at the Shroud of Turin, there's several things historically that show that it's inexplicable. One. The nails are through the risk, which nobody knew until in the sixties. Sometime they begin digging up crucified grades in Israel and found that the crucified slaves did have a nail through the wrist.

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And then the doctor pointed out, if they went through the hands, it would just jerk free. It couldn't be helped. The wounds were all right Where there should be eight tests done by Dr Heller Yale were positive for true blood, where the blood stains on the shroud.

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The most astonishing thing is the three dimensional. Uh, if you take a if you take a picture of flat picture and scan it with an image analyzer. Since there's no relationship between the shadows, say the highlight on my nose and the shadow here, there's no relationship depth relationship.

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If you put that into computer and image analyzer, you you get a distorted picture out. When they put the picture of this route in, they've got a three dimensional picture. It's hard to conceive any artist being able to do that with this, because that's what makes the shroud inexplicable.

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Now what makes this inexplicable inexplicable one is the blue, and the film has not faded in 400 years. The tomb itself hasn't rotted. So you have to say, Well, they knew how to preserve cloth that we don't know if somebody did it. A new pigments that don't fade, which is which is unlike third.

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It is like I say, there's no drawing under it now, somewhere in the world and maybe somebody they can do a painting without drawing on it. But I doubt. And I'm still waiting for somebody to show up and do my portrait that way. Uh, fourth, there's no varnish over.

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So why isn't it cracking? Any time you go into an art museum, you would see these cracking little little hair like cracks in the paint where they're cracked the other. The other thing that makes it like I say, totally inexplicable is the fact that, uh, the original figure really was an Indian woman.

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And what what the Spanish did. I guess they wanted to make it a Spanish thing to they came along and and they decorated and made a Spanish Gothic figure. But when you do get rid of all of that, what's left is what you'd expect the Virgin.

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If she was going to a period on Indian, she would look like an Indian. She's going to appear to European. She looked like a European, and this picture is very definitely, uh, an Aztec figure. The short It's short and stocky short legs compared to the proportion of the rest of the body.

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What what? The putting the angel, where did was make it more Spanish looking. It's an optical illusion because on this just picture here, I don't know where you can see this on TV or not. But this picture here, I've taken the angel away, and you can see that she's very short.

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Should not be. That is the picture that we saw, the one that you did now fill. Weren't there some other changes in addition to those that you discovered by infrared photography, weren't the fingers truncated in some way? The fingers were changed and slightly painted over. And, of course, the infrared you can see right through, and you can see whether they've been painted over.

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It looks like at one time they decided to make them longer, and then they changed their mind and put them, maybe didn't look too good and put them back where they were. All of that sunburst is just cracking off now that was added. It looks to me like, uh, like, originally as it hang there, hang there for centuries that they just it got dirty.

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The same thing happened to shroud of tour and it was in a fire and it got burn. So they sold it and they repaired. It looked to me like to get around this this dirt it was collecting from people remember how people were kissing and touching it over centuries because it was only within the last, uh, 60 or 70 years has been under glass, so it probably got dirty around the edges, and they just they just actually get a fresco technique on it.

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They just mounted it against a piece of metal and embedded this slimline fresco on it and then put the sunburst on that and that's all cracking off as well as they did it. It still didn't last. Probably more than 100 years now. When you found out this information about the Lady of Guadalupe painting information that was not available to scientists or church man.

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Before you communicated it, I assumed to the church authorities in Mexico City what was their reaction to this discovery. At first they didn't. You know, they were kind of neither here nor there on it kind of middle of the road. When I finally wrote my report, and I think they had time to sit down and analyze what I said, they were delighted because I know that in their minds they were wondering if this was a miraculous picture, why it was why all the outside of it was cracking off.

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And while that it was peeling off and they, of course, had no way of knowing that the original was still as good as it ever was. They were still convinced that it was an inexplicable. And of course, there's a scientist, you say, Well, can you call it a miracle?

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And Jack Perkins, who's an old War correspondents, knew this was on NBC to NBC magazine, and he tried to pin me down there. You know how they like to pin scientists down as well. You're a scientist, he said. You believe in miracles. And I said, Well, Jack, about all I can say that, I says, Do you believe in life?

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And he says, Well, of course I believe in life and I said. Well, isn't life itself a miracle? And I think when you start getting physics and metaphysics together, that's what you're up against. You're up against life, which exists in two realms in one realm, in the physical realm and the other realm, the metaphysical realm, and that sometimes you get crossovers between these two realms.

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And I think if we go on with these slides, maybe I can explain some of this. There's places all over the world where things like this have happened. For instance, the Holy Mountain in Ireland is a is a mountain called Crow Patrick, and it's a very strange mountain.

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And all of these places I studied and they're like this rock that's on the table here and we can see that rock. They're all gotta. A physical property called Para magnetism, which is a susceptibility, is not magnetism. It's a susceptibility of magnetism, and I call it the yin and the yang of agriculture.

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There's nothing in any soil books about this, but I'm studying it right now. Soil is ground up, rock good soil. If you want to grow a plant, it has to be highly para magnetic coil. You can't grow it. A plant is die magnetic. Now all that means that a plant would be repelled by a magnet and this die magnetic para magnetic rock we pulled to a magnet.

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So they're opposite forces. All of these places where miracles have taken place are highly para magnetic. Now that picture again is That's the crow Patrick in Ireland. There's several places that are sort of magic places in Ireland, where I found, for instance, let's go to the next one.

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I've been there, Alan Morris. I'm using that instead of Mexico because I haven't studied anything but Peacock Hill in Mexico. But when you grow up this mountain, for instance, when you get on top of it, you feel almost like you're floating. You get you get a feeling that that you could fly.

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It's a very strange sensation. You get the sensation, and it's always been places where is rough. And, of course I'm an old mountain climber being a falconer, and I've always wondered why you never get fatigued climbing a mountain. So there's some forces in rocks that we don't understand.

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The Egyptians knew about it. The Celtic people knew about it. The Aztec Indians knew about it. We don't understand these forces and we tend to look at him and I have a feeling our next program is going to be on pyramids and pyramid power. It might be, Let's have the next one here now This is another strange place.

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This is a rocket castle in Ireland and I'm sticking to Ireland because I've studied rocks and Ireland more than half in Mexico. And they built these round towers there, and I've made models of these round towers and I can take around Tyre model exact model steel model where these round towers are to see the next one.

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There's a better round tower, I think, in the next one, the next one you can see this is an around Tara. That said, Glenda Lock. I've got an exact scale model that I can take that scale model. Put it into a pot with the exact same soil.

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Georgia potting soil. The best potting soil er, is as far as I'm from Georgia. So I said, good potting soil plant radishes and one is a Czech plant, radishes and the other, and the only difference is have that round tower sitting in the middle polarizes out in the radish of the weigh twice as much and have six times as many fine roots on them.

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This para magnetic energy can be handled like an antenna, and we just do not understand these type of energies. Now what? I'm saying that as far as miracles are concerned, if you're gonna believe here's physics and here's metaphysics that we live in a crossover as life as living things, we live in a crossover life.

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For instance, I use the ficus plant as the ficus plant right there in the back of the neck. I use that as a detector for something called to Keown's. That's a particle faster in the speed of light. So instead of using a physical something a physicist that make I used a plant and I got the exact thing that was predicted.

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With that, attacking on is supposedly a particle faster and be like, I think in this report that you've written about the film A The cloak under infrared radiation. There's a quotation by from G. K. Chesterton. May I read that? Read that. That's a good one about that.

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Gets it all together. All right. Uh, this is your belief as G. K. Chesterton and expresses it is my belief that miracles have happened in human history is not a mystical belief at all. I believe in them upon human evidences, as I do in the discovery of America, somehow or other.

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An extraordinary idea has arisen that disbelievers in miracles consider them coldly and fairly, while believers in miracles except them only in connection with some dogma. The fact is, quite the other way. The believers and miracles except them, rightly or wrongly, only because they have some evidence for them.

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The disbelievers and miracles deny them, rightly or wrongly, because they have a doctrine against exactly that's the point, the doctrine against it. And I think that's interesting. I think that the more we begin the scientists to study these sort of things, the more we may find out that physics and metaphysics do go together, that you do live, and not only and not only a physical life but a spiritual life, and that what God is doing is just manipulating nature.

00:27:25.550 - 00:27:41.360

And we don't We will never understand nature well enough or good enough as talented and says to tell your Desjardin says you get closer and closer to God by studying nature, which is what science is, but you'll never understand it completely. So God can continue to work miracles because we'll never catch up to God.

00:27:41.940 - 00:27:56.310

Miracles do not have to contradict nature. They can only be, in my opinion, the manipulation of nature by God in such a way that we as poor mortals still don't understand it very quickly filled. Do you have plans to go back to Mexico City to continue These studies have the permission to do so.

00:27:56.310 - 00:28:14.410

I have the permission to do so for providing excuses, saying, providing I don't bring too many people down with me and interfere with the religious church in the masses. They have there that I do have permission and I haven't had time to yet. But I do plan to go down probably sometime either this year and next year and do some further studies.

00:28:14.420 - 00:28:28.290

I also have some of these rocks from there, and I'm studying right now in my lab studying the This papaya here was highly para magnetic. So this forces in that hill and I think this forced me entering. Well, when you come back from these later investigations.

00:28:28.300 - 00:28:48.950

Let's talk about it again. My guest has been Phil Callahan. It's always a a great experience to chat with you, Phil and your various adventures. And I learned a lot from you as I know our viewers to my guest, Philip Callahan, professor of Entomology and the Department of Entomology at the university and also entomologist with the United States Department of Agriculture.

00:28:48.960 - 00:28:52.550

Thank you very much for being with me on conversation.