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from Gainesville, Florida Yeah, hello, I'm Mike Gannon, and this is conversation. I've been reading a working document printed for internal use by the Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences at the University of Florida. It's entitled The challenge. Develop a new low energy agriculture. Now I found out, among other things, that Florida has more bugs and less fertility than any other state in the American Union.

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What does that mean for Florida's agriculture? Well, it means that we need more pesticides and more fertilizer than any other state in the American Union. I'd like to read one short paragraph from this document. Both fertilizers and pesticides require large amounts of fossil based energy for their manufacture.

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Mm, fossil based energy oil, for example. In recent years, rising oil and natural gas energy prices have doubled and tripled the costs of these vital agricultural inputs. By the most conservative estimates, world oil and natural gas prices will at least double again by 1985. Florida, which uses more oil and natural gas per acre for agricultural production than do other states, is hit much harder by each new price increase, eroding any competitive edge in the states.

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Agriculture any competitive edge that our states agriculture once enjoyed. This is a major problem facing Florida agriculture today and more particularly tomorrow. How to answer that problem will attempt to come up with some answers when I return in a moment with my guest conversation from the University of Florida, a discussion of social, political, scientific and religious issues of the day.

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Your host is Dr Michael Vegan in Ring professor of ethics on assistant dean of the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences at the University of Florida. My guest on this conversation is Dr Kenneth T. For Taylor, vice president for agricultural affairs in the University of Florida.

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Ken, welcome to conversation. You're long overdue, is a guest on this program, and I have long wanted to talk with you about agriculture. And now when we finally do get together, we appear to be on the brink of some kind of disaster. This is a rather pessimistic report.

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I wonder if you would elaborate a bit. That brief paragraph that I've read Yes, Mike, it is good to be here, and I would say I simply your statement probably summed it up best. That's we've got less fertility and more bugs in the other state union.

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And this is important, particularly since every day the energy price goes up. $4 a Bera fall number years ago, 14 to $16 now And I think we've got put together for agriculture. At the time, we had cheap energy and we no longer have cheap energy. So simply means, very simply, we got a problem.

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No, the use of the energy sources oil and natural gas. Is that a recent phenomenon? Or has Florida agriculture always been characterized by the use of these? Yes, we've simply been characterized the very beginning, like is a strong use of those. It's been really masked by the fact that we've that we've essentially had cheap energy, and it wasn't that important.

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Um, you know, really, 200 years, the Spanish tried toe settle Florida, and you speak better than I what success they had in the mission area. But I would say in the farming area they had farmers coming in, uh, spend 20 years and give up and go home.

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That went on for 200 years. Uh, American agriculture was developed. We came late. We're one of the late newcomers in agriculture after the turn of this century. Before we really had a modern agriculture in Florida. There's many because even then there was difficulty people coming, other parts United States using Midwest technology or even Georgia Alabama technology and finally couldn't make a go of it.

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There's still people remember. Their grandfather almost went broke until they found out he had to deal with the Florida's unique problems as reading. We've got research education centers throughout the state, and essentially that came about of working with Florida's problem, developing the answers, our own unique technology, then very, very cheap energy.

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Um, for a number of years, we put together essentially one of the major agricultural states in the Union. We're essentially 13th largest in the country. Is it not our primary industry in Florida or is tourism? Uh, it is our primary industry. In fact, the uh, tourist industry is the second largest industry state and a very strong industry.

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But agriculture Just today we got the report in the cave that there's a $3.3 billion of farm sales. As of now, that's the first time I've ever broken a $3 billion mark for farm sales, and that means something like a multiplier effect around $12 billion industry.

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And this is what makes it so serious is that Florida economy is so closely tied to agriculture, in a sense, the growth of agriculture that it will make a more difficult adjustment if we end up being one of the minor agricultural states in the very near future or even distant future.

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So we think, really, the importance of developing a low energy based technology is an important all the systems of Florida, as it is for the farmers. All right, before we talk about how you might develop such a low energy agriculture, I want to find out what's wrong with Florida soil.

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Is it sandy or, uh, lacking nutrients? I I think of the rolling, fertile hills around Tallahassee, and I think of the rich, uh, fields around Hastings, the potato capital and and of the horse farm country around Ocalan going on down to the Glades. Uh, what's wrong with the soil?

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It looks rich to May. It's made deficient in key minerals. It's say Well, you have the the dark muck are the sand or something in between. We've got a few areas in the state in West Florida, a few others that have some fertility most of them are essentially it Z all right, is not, ah, addict minerals in any of them.

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Since it is, most of it has been using a wide range of fertilizer. It's just basically infertile soils from from the beginning. Now the fertilizer does it have a annoy oil base or ah, fossil base? Or are you talking about the use of oil and other energy?

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Resource is in that the fertilizer must be mined, distributed and then, uh, scattered over the land by tractors. You some of both the essentially. It is more and more expensive for any kind of transportation in mining. But, uh, natural gas and fossil fuels is really a major source of much of our pesticides and fertilizers.

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So it's really both all right now, with the tripling of oil prices, with fossil energy becoming increasingly scarce over the next decades, with some people projecting that shortly after the turn of the century, there will be no oil for for these uses, I presume, or for any uses Florida in order to survive as an agricultural state in order to preserve its number, one industry must come up with a whole new plan for agriculture.

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So let's look at that now. You're low energy agriculture system. Very good. I think the one alternative, um, is one will continue to work on that. Since 1973 we'd like to rest. The country has been very active in conservation of energy with existing technology, some some improvement.

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And I think we've done a tremendous job. I can't extension offices throughout the area. Courses have made major adjustments here, uh, towards more conservation of energy. But the problem, I think, is it That's not good enough. There's no way you conserve your way out of this problem in Florida.

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Agriculture is not like the household, this type of thing. So I think it is gonna take a new technology and we think this could be done. We're not talking about going back somewhere to the time of the hand labor, the mule. This is not what we're talking about.

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We're talking about going forward with basically using more biological control, less chemical, uh, finding plants through genetics. Uh, that will use less nitrogen and be more resistance to to bugs of all types. And let me take that first one of finding, uh, what insects that would prey on other insects.

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Instead of abolishing the abundant insects with chemicals, you would find other natural species that feed on those pests and what this would be essentially we call integrated pest management is simply using all the methods to control our past. Uh, chemicals lawyers remain a major part of it, but culture approaches biological, other bugs on other bugs, in other words, and we think out of this that our objective would be to minimize the amount of chemicals to be used and still effectively do the job.

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And that's basically, uh, at least cost approach to doing a particular job because with the expensive fuel today, at least cost away. And now the turn of the century is gonna be to use less nice chemicals, and it also is environmentally more sound. Most sound. So we will always use some chemicals.

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Yes, we don't see, uh, you know, and I think a great drastic chains and other chemicals used overnight, but I think it, uh, I think we could be compatible with the kind of the things we're using now. with rest of Florida. We've shown that the last several years, and that's the issue is not is.

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Can you be competitive and we're using every time it changes your less competitive in other parts of country. We've got more incentive to develop a lower into based technology than any state in the union. And so that's the driving force is probably very rational to use a lot of chemicals.

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Back in the forties and fifties, when we did not work that environmentally sensitive, we didn't have EPA and chemicals extremely cheap. But that world is no longer with us. Uh, and so we're in a different ball game and we see ourselves with a major push towards balance.

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Can you give me an example of how one species has been introduced into Florida to control another species? Yes. One example is the, uh, white scale and Citrus and exam recently, some progress, we think, in the black fly that's just recently had some research success there.

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Uh, there's others that that we've made progress in across the, uh, other state. Now, you also spoke when I interrupted you. I'm sorry, but I was really interested in that biological control of pests. You spoke of the genetic, uh, control of certain plants. Well, the greens, one of the rial successes.

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I think much of the success of putting together Florida agriculture has been from Sinus going about their way of finding the right problem. Work on, I might say, our own Sinus since 73 have made major adjustments and being able to carry on the program. I think I got me these problems, but I think one of our great strength has been genetics.

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But we've used genetics in many ways developed disease resistant varieties. But we've also used the major thrust on making maximum years. We may find that genetics is used more than future of dealing with Dr developed plants. That may not necessarily how the maximum yield, but our disease Resistance perhaps can grow with left fertilizer.

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So we see this is a tool in terms of developing low energy based technology is using genetics is one important tools. So in the Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences, one of your principal thrusts is the development of strains that can grow in a soil that's as infertile as Florida's and also resist pests and disease and and and the like.

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All right, so we have biological control of pests. We have genetic control. What are some of the other things that you're working on? One of the things that we think it has a real place in this area is the is developing through various methods what we call nitrogen fixation.

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Plans have a fixed. It's on nitrous. Since we know of the clover, the lagoons, that has been this way for years. But essentially again, the cheap nitrogen. For a period of a number of years, it almost became, uh, obsolete. In a sense, toe work with Legans that's been essentially active, much more active in last.

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Our sign is much more involved in this the last six or seven years. Also, they're involved in using bacteria that would actually assist in fixing the nitrogen fixing type of plants that are not liking. So that is an area that's very high risk area. The chances for or payoff in It may be rather slim, but we think the payoff would be so great if you could find some grasses friends and they would fix £25 of its own night.

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You look at the statewide the number of acres. So that is an area that our science last number of years of a several departments of working together in terms of the national program. That's what are the principal crops of Florida. Well, it's one of the other reason that we're the major industry.

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We are. We have so many crops. We have 37 crops since the above $5 million sales third largest in the country. And we're really the most diverse agriculture. But of course, out of those, the horticulture crops essentially the Citrus area. That whole area of Citrus and fruit crops makes up about 25%.

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The vegetable crops make up something like another 25% and the ornamentals in Agra gnomic crops are also three other two large, larger. Now I noticed in the working paper that you put together a number of alternative energy sources that you've considered the first is solar energy.

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How would solar energy be applied to agriculture? We think the solar energy area again, like for the nation in the country. We do not think it's a since we solve all the problems, but we do think has one very important role to play in agriculture. That's in the area of drying.

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We spend tremendous amount of energy drying soybeans, peanuts, all the various crops, particularly state like ours, with with high humidity and with all the abundant sun that we have here. We have essentially more opportunity for solar because the humidity and the kind of variety of crops will grow and a tremendous amount of energy used on drying that that would be the rial place, that complaint and the wind.

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When I was a boy growing up in Oklahoma everywhere from farm to farm, I saw the windmills. And are you suggesting there that we're going to go back to the windmills? I grew up in Oklahoma and I saw those same windmills. Mike and I don't see us that being a major, uh, area source of energy again, I think there's probably gonna get solved if we have it.

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By exploring all the alternatives, it may have a place. I think most of this point in time that many people see much hope in the winds. Least the windmill approach t to solve a problem. Now here's a new term for May Biomass. What does that mean?

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well, it's essentially a matter of harvesting, Ah, crop for the energy that it might produce. And this is one which I think is a lot of people are talking about, and at some point in time, the price of energy that we're importing is enough. It'll probably fees, but most areas right now, it is not feasible to go out and plant a crop harvested hall in all this produce energy at it.

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Uh, if you find a residue somewhere that you may have a resident like the Citrus pulp and other kinds of things, you it's more more practice. But again, it's the type of thing we should be working on, not necessarily what's feasible today, but projecting ahead what will be essentially the type of things that might be feasible with, with important all twice the price it is today.

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Yes, and coal and renewable resource is, I think we again see our role in some ways in agriculture is to stay abreast of all the type of new alternative energy sources that may be coming down the pike and making sure we can adapt in agriculture. And it all depends what morning you get up.

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You know what seemed to be the most likely alternative source. But but those again, if that come about, of course, in the renewable resource. We have a major stake in that because we're the sense, in many ways the steward of the renewable sources of Florida, because sensitive producers of agricultural producers of crops and livestock have more responsibility for making sure those resources, uh, stay renewable than most other areas I've been reading recently about one of the Midwestern states.

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I believe it is Iowa, where gasohol eyes so legally at gasoline stations mixture of gasoline what 80 or 90% to assert 90% to 10% alcohol, which is derived from agricultural products. Do we have the same kind of agricultural products that would, um, produce the alcohol required for gasohol in this state?

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This is one thing we're looking at this point in time in Florida. I can. Everyone knows a lot about the, um, history of the what we think of is gasohol and a steel form. And that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about a major effort of producing energy from from a mixture of water in gasoline.

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Um, I think probably Midwest has an advantage in there because of tremendous production of grain and so forth. But I think we're looking at it only from a user of it, but also a producer of it. And we have such a wide variety of crops that we very well could have a place in in producing this.

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It does again. Florida has a disadvantage again because it takes more energy, you know, essentially to grow anything. So where we're actually competitive, that area not is a question mark, but we'd be happy to see it developed somewhere because it means would be less dependent on imported all if it meant that energy we use in Florida agriculture, even though we didn't produce all of it way, welcome break through that area.

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I asked a question earlier about the energy required to create the necessary fertilizer is not phosphate, a principle ingredient and fertilizer. I'm showing my ignorance of these matters. Now on, def. So does not Florida possess one of the most abundant sources of fertilizer of phosphate in the world?

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We truly so. It is one that Florida is a no exporter of, and in many ways it's a nitrogen fertilizer that farmers most efficient in and it's the one what is the biggest user of natural fossil fuels are natural games? Well, uh, phosphate does not. Phosphate alone does not answer the fertilizer needs.

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It's one important area, and it's important to Florida. Many parts of Saul of assaults in Florida. There's only one of the three major chemicals, and it's nitrogen is one of the most critical from standpoint of possibly Well, I asked that question because I did not think it would take much energy to get the phosphate from Florida to Florida farms.

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We haven't adequate supplies. Now we've talked about the 37 major crops, Uh, in Florida. Do you, uh, foresee is part of this revolutionary low energy agriculture that you see Florida developing or having to develop? Do you see perhaps Florida changing the nature of the crops that it grows in order to accommodate itself to the kind of soil?

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It has a very good question. Like I think it, uh, again the set of crops we have now in many ways developed because we had cheap energy. I think we're talking about us turn in a low, injured based agriculture with the turn of the century and much much before then.

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And I will take a really shaking out to see what crops were going to survive because you know how to competitive area. Unless you can make the adjustments and technology compete other parts of the country, they'll shift to something else. Uh, and some extent this may be because of, like, adjustment in area, but probably more importantly because of the are the problems some commodity to be more difficult to develop a large based technology for than others on.

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I think we're fortunate, our science and office to be a part of at this point in time with this major issue ahead of us, that part of a great university, that one of the two or three language university United States, which has all the distance on this campus and that's extremely important to our science, to be a part of this type of a campus because it will take a a total, interdisciplinary, multidisciplinary type of approach to get at this this type of problem.

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I wonder to what measure the farmers of Florida are aware of this problem of this oncoming problem. I ask that because all the polls indicate that a majority of people in the United States do not believe that there is really is a shortage of oil. That's another very good question.

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And I think it's one that we had a recent meeting of all of our county extension, uh, frankly throughout the state, you know, 67 counties, and they're very, uh, concerned that they're not able to help us. Many people that I think the producers they do help feel more of a need.

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They will tell you for, uh, essentially improved technology than ever before. I think one of the things, because there's not mawr of essentially a crisis at this point in people's mind is because much like the cheap energy in the fifties and sixties sort of covered up the fact we had a problem at this point in time.

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Strange enough for that. We have essentially many commodities beef, cattle, Citrus are almost at the top of a cycle, and all these tender cycle but lower prices and just so happened at this point in time that these are relatively high prices. Therefore, it covers up the real problem and we cycle back toe, you know, cheaper beef cheaper Citrus, cheaper, other kinds of commodities.

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Then we're gonna find the early eighties. We think, with a constant increase in energy prices with mawr what you think more normal prices of these commodities, at least another part of the cycle that we're gonna have a major problem of making that adjust, can you? And I remember what things were like back in the late sixties and how many of the young activists in the university and many of the people whom you might call progressives criticized the farmers or agribusiness for being reactionary and standing for different values.

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And I rather believe that the agricultural community in Florida looked askance at the activists who were marching and demonstrating, and I cannot but think of the possible irony that might be present in your mind as it is in mind when the university students now we're sitting back and watching the farmers, uh, in tractor demonstrations in Washington.

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Eso how things have have have turned. I'd like you to comment on that, but if you would, I think there has been a great concern by American agriculture which stemmed in agriculture movement. Ah, because essentially everything they buy, uh, essentially bought at the retail price. And everything has cell.

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Yes, since there are price takers and a small amount of do the elasticity of demand for most of the commodities they have a small amount of oversupply were great. Depress the price. And not only does it depressive, it sometimes puts it levels beyond lower their cost of production but constant.

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Everything they buy goes up in price all the time. And so there is a a concern. Uh, this movement has not been, you know, that successful is, you know, But it is. It does express a concern that young farmers particular these were many of our young farmers had going in business in last several years.

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And we're in a substantial amount of debt. And I think it's one that that expresses, I think, a problem that relates directly this energy thing. One of the reasons costs have gone up in the last 73 much of this has been energy projects have not kept pace with.

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Just the other day, I was driving through Wisconsin Dairy country and my driving companion said, You see those fields over there? I happen to know, uh, those particular fields. They were purchased by a Japanese gentlemen recently. And up the road away. I know. Ah, great tract of land that was just purchased by some German investors.

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Oh, this whole state's gonna be bought up by Germany and Japan before before the centuries out. Are you concerned about these foreign investments? I think I am. In a sense, there's been great interest in the area. I don't know. Still, what percentage were talking about that most evidence we have that the people that buy most of the farmland are the neighborhood by the other neighbor's farm.

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But this may be changing faster than we think. And as you know, there's been a recent law in the book with cumbia essentially a record made of all sales. You have to report any foreign investors to report what he bought, what connections he had, how he's gonna use it, the price he paid.

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So we'll know fairly soon. Just how substantial this is in this country. Is Florida affected by this problem? Yes. Uh, it is, uh, we're one of the states where this purchasing is going on. How widespread it is is a question. I think we're gonna have answered with this new reporting.

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Now, if agriculture of the sort that we described in terms of crops is affected by the low energy situation, what about, uh, cattle? Cattle would not seem to be affected at all. It's, uh, since the equally affected in many ways because, uh, the livestock industry has built since the on on the fertilized business in Southeast cheap fertilizer.

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So most of things that the ranch in this state produces is is related to highly twos, grasses and ability to put up a in this type of thing. So it's indirect. It's one step removed but essentially faces the same problem. And essentially, he's been through about four years, you know, very low prices.

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And on the now this price is getting back at a time when the with the livestock person can I say So you need mawr. Food that is readily available from natural sources in orderto have the same level industry that we do today in cattle. And we can't just go back to the days of the Spaniards.

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When here at around a la Chua, they had their cattle ranches just a few 100 head, perhaps, Yeah, the problem going back is that the world has changed. And since we're feeding most of the world right now and many ways Economy of Florida Bill on agriculture and they're probably going back is you're doing very little producing.

00:25:42.240 - 00:26:09.220

You may be very compatible, but I think would be compatible and go forward. And I believe the turn of century we can usher in the new agriculture that is low energy, based at same time, very compatible with urban Florida. I think that's important for no other reason, like is the fact that the movement towards a low in debates agriculture is mainly because the price of energy, but if we're able to accomplish is, uh you can sure can easily visualized that this is the kind of agriculture would want in Florida being one of the most urban states.

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So I think it has a positive. You know, it looks like a problem now. In many ways, it may look back on it someday and say, Well, this colleges, to make some adjustments that that we need to make America as a whole has been a bread basket to the world.

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Do you foresee the same problems that you've talked about here in relation to Florida, affecting the great crops, the wheat crops, for example, of the Midwestern part of the United States. Not as much. You know. They're they're less concerned that we are, and rightly so. They have natural fertility, back toe collector age.

00:26:40.100 - 00:26:54.860

They have essentially a different set of insects were in the tropics will never get a free hard enough toe to kill insects. They get deep freezes every year. That kills all the insects. So the insect pest problem a lot of natural fertility, they have less of a problem.

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And fortunately that, um, that I think that agriculture throughout the country needs to be strong because the export area that we have now that essentially about half of the oil imports is paid for by agriculture exports. So you can imagine if, if the full nation had the problem Florida has and took him to threaten our export market, it would be more than just The economy of the state is effective, but the economy of the country So I do think we're fortunate to have a nation is not as effective as much as Florida, and I wonder if the rial sufferers in this oil crunch are not the developing countries because they would not have access to fertilizers or pesticides either with the price is going out of sight.

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How could they possibly afford these? And how then, could they develop the necessary food to feed their exploding populations? This is true. They particularly they have, you know, high energy technology that they're gonna be affecting more than someone positive effort. Perhaps in this area that I think many of the developing countries will never, never developing a intensive energy technology.

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Now they're probably more likely develop a lower into based technology Essentially would not have to go through. Uh, this is just what we are. We lead the nation and still doing agriculture. We are the superpower and food, but we have to go through the biggest adjustment in Florida.

00:28:10.270 - 00:28:24.170

Probably biggest adjustment in the nation. We were on the the end because we went so far in terms of energy intensity. Ken, thank you very much for being with me on conversation. Dr. Kent, vice president for agricultural affairs in the University of Florida