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Oh, hello, I'm Mike Cannon, and this is conversation. Very recently, I had the opportunity to accompany to University of Florida researchers on a mission to Cuba. It was an academic mission to discover and study Spanish Florida materials that we hope to find in that country's history and archaeological collections.

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We expected much, and we found much, and what we found helps us to understand much better. The 2.5 centuries that Florida spent under Spanish rule Florida and Cuba were twin outposts of the Spanish Empire in the Caribbean region. ST. Augustine in Florida and Havana, Cuba, were sister cities under the Spanish flag.

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Our expedition was to find the remains of that common history, and it was the first such expedition or research mission from Florida to Cuba since the 19 fifties. What we experienced and what we found will be the subject of this conversation. When I return in a moment.

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Yeah, Live Live presents conversation from the University of Florida, a discussion of social, political, scientific and religious issues of the day. Your host is Dr Michael Vegan in professor of history and ethics and assistant dean of the College of Liberal Arts and sciences at the University of Florida.

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Okay, my guest on this conversation is Dr Kathleen Diggin, archaeologist and staff member of the State Museum of Florida, on the campus of the University of Florida. Kathy, Welcome to conversation. Thank you. We've had quite an adventure. You and Bruce Chapel and Woody, Keister and I and will describe that cast of characters in a moment.

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We made a trip to Cuba for purposes I described, and some people might wonder, Did Florida really spend 2.5 centuries under the Spanish flag? And I like to reply, It will be the year 2055 before Florida will have been under the American flag as long as it was under the flag of Spain.

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So there's much defined, isn't it? There certainly is much defined by historians, much to be found by archaeologists. The archivist on our expedition who could not be with us this evening was Bruce Chapel from the peak, a young Library of Florida history. But you were looking for something other than documents.

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What was it exactly that you were hunting in Havana and a province outside Havana? Well, um, I was looking for material evidence of Florida and Cuba's linked history. Historians, sometimes called archaeological, remains words from the Earth because a great deal of what we know about the daily life of people, what they ate, things that aren't usually included in documents can only be found archaeologically so naturally.

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We hope that that kind of information would be present in Cuba to amplify our studies in ST Augustine and other parts of Florida of the Spanish occupation. Now you've been working for many years in excavation of the colonial life of old ST Augustine, and you hoped I supposed to find in Havana and around Havana artifacts of the same sort that you had turned up at ST Augustine.

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That's right, too, established the kinds of links and the kinds of things that were traded back and forth between ST Augustine and Havana and also really important where the architectural resources, because ST Augustine, the historic ST Augustine preservation word in particular, has been charged with reconstructing ST Augustine and interpreting the Spanish life to the American public.

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And because Havana is so well preserved in those material things, it's really a help to add that to what we already know about ST Augustine. It's our best analogy, I think. And after some 30 years, a group sponsored jointly by the University of Florida and the historic ST Augustine Preservation Board did go down to Havana to discover what was there.

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We're going to show some photographs in a moment. But were you satisfied? Gratified, pleased. Whatever is the appropriate term for all of the above, all of the above. It was a real success, and it was really appropriate that oh, some Saint Augustine Ian's were included in the trip since 219 years ago, another group of ST Augustine Ian's went to Cuba as refugees when Florida became a British possession.

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And we, I suppose, in a sense, almost followed their footsteps to the town that they eventually settled in. Yes, we want to talk about that, too, when we show the photographs, because I think that's one of the most interesting discoveries of of your trip. I should explain that four of us went down to Havana originally, um, doctor Elwood Keister, professor of music emeritus from the University of Florida, who was our chief pilot.

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I went along as part of the scholarly troop and co pilot and chief bottle washer and then yourself, Kathy as archaeologist and Bruce Chapel as archivist. Woody and I, having landed our private plane at Jose Marti International Airport outside Havana, spent a day and a night making sure that everything was in order for the expedition.

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And then we came back to the University of Florida, returning just short of two weeks later to pick up you and Bruce. And I remember seeing your faces when we got through customs after arriving back at Havana, you were full of delight and excitement about the kinds of things that you found.

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Yes, I'm afraid we kind of monopolized you that evening. Well, that was, well, I I was really thrilled to hear the kinds of things that you turned up. We knew some of the things that we might expect because does not Havana have houses, perhaps other buildings as well that were constructed at the same time, certainly in the same century as buildings in ST Augustine that you and others have been studying for some years?

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Exactly. But the difference is they've stayed standing in some cases in Havana, and only a few examples of of buildings have survived from the 18th century in Saint Augustine, so it was a great help. Didn't you find some pottery in Havana that surprised you greatly because it originated in Florida?

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Yes, this was a kind of pottery that archaeologists have been arguing about for some time, whether it was made by Florida Indians or Florida slaves. But it was definitely a locally produced, hand molded kind of pottery, which we wouldn't really expect to be part of the trade system between ST Augustine and and Havana.

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Possibly it might be a clue to some of the Indians, the Florida Indians, who went to Havana in 17 63 with the Spaniards when they evacuated. But now the our colleagues in Cuba are alerted to this, and they've promised to search their collections for more evidence of that sort.

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You brought some pictures back, pictures that I have seen only very briefly as we were setting them up for this evening's program. Let's take a look at them first. Here is our intrepid band of flyers, From left to right, Bruce Chapel, archivists from the PK young Library of Florida history, uh, yours truly and then Kathy and finally Woody keister and behind us, the Beech bonanza that took us safely in and out twice.

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And that's Jose Marti Airport in Havana. Or, I should say, outside Havana, because it's quite a drive from the center of Havana to the airport. And that was on our last trip as we left for the final time and going over water. And that accounts for the life jackets.

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Let's take a look now at what else we have. I'll let you narrate these, Kathy, as we go along. Well, this is the skyline of Havana, the new part of Havana, which is strung out around a beautiful blue bay. And this is a sea wall next to El Morro Castle.

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Lots of boys were there fishing of the seawall, and here's El Morro Castle, built in the 16th century and has stood there ever since at the mouth of the Havana back the same century from which the city of Saint Augustine originates. As a matter of fact, one of ST Augustine's governors, governor Juan Marquez Cabrera, was imprisoned in that castle in 16 87.

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Yes, and this is part of the city wall of Havana. There are remnants of this wall that once encircled the city all the way around, and today you can see that the portions of wall are carefully tended. There's a bust of Jose Marti and plants planted around, and they're very well taken care of.

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Jose Marti being the great Cuban patriot fighter for independence around the turn of the century. And this is the Cathedral of Havana, and it's set in a square. The Plaza de la Catedral, which is beautiful, cobbled little square. Actually, the cathedral was built in the 18th century, was the second Cathedral of Havana, and this is part of central Havana, just outside of the historic old Havana district.

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You can see in Juxtaposition part of the Old City wall with a sentry box next to a modern sort of Gothic interpretation church. This is across from the Museum of the Revolution in a park. I remember seeing that structure when we took a nighttime walk conducted by one of Cuba's leading historians, Moreno Frog, now one of the notable things about Havana, where the parks just parks and boulevards.

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One Sunday, our companeros and guides, lords and Faye took us out into the country to visit Sabah, Moshe and this is pretty much what the country looked like between Havana and Matanzas, about 70 miles to the east. And the town you were going to visit was originally called San Augustine Della Nueva, Uh, Nova Florida.

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Yes, they yes, Nueva Florida, Uh, Saint Augustine of of the New Florida. And it was founded by Spaniards who left ST Augustine and Florida in 17 63 when the British took over Florida for a 21 year period and many of the families settled in this little town.

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I think you have a close up view of the town itself, and and and some of the buildings this being one know this. If you noticed in the last slide, there were some small white dots in the hillside. This is a closer view of these, these structures called bo heroes.

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And they are, according to the architects and archaeologists. They believe that this was probably the kind of house that the very first settlers in both Havana and Saint Augustine may have lived in but their traditional and have persisted until the present day in Cuba. And that's a thatched roof thatched roof with palm walls, palm wood walls Mm, that's that's interesting.

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And here we are in Sabah. Moshe, This is the ruined church of the town. First call ST Augustine after ST Augustine, Florida. Yes, and this church, the curate told us, was constructed in the 17 eighties, which means that probably the sons of those who are in daughters of those Floridians may have attended Mass here.

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And here is where you and our archivist, Bruce, made a striking discovery. The discovery that amazed your Cuban hosts. That's right. Let's take a look and see what it was. It was the what appears here to be a pile of dusty old books was actually a set of parish records from that church going back into the 17 eighties.

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At least we didn't have a chance to look through all of them. But the first book we picked up was from the 17 eighties containing names of families that we knew had once been in Florida. It was a very exciting moment. Well, it surely was, because that means by by these books we can follow the histories of those families who originated in ST Augustine as they began new generations of life and service in Havana, Many of them apparently, uh, went into the sugar industry, which was the leading industry then, as it is now, there is Bruce Chapel, who could not be with us this evening pouring through one of the oldest of the volumes are those are two friends.

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Yes, there. It's a little hard to tell, but Faye and Lord is in the background. And those They were so surprised by this discovery that they took the books back to Havana for safekeeping because in their present place of storage, they were deteriorating only the moisture and insects and so on.

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All right, but they're safe now. And this was the street next to the town square in, say, Bamaca. What about the buildings there? Do you have any idea their provenance in time, I was told that most of them date into the 19th century. The town was largely rebuilt then, but there were a few structures that may have been there in the 18th century.

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I think one of the next slides shows one of these. This building painted well whitewashed with a pink tint in it. As so many of the houses in Havana. I noticed that along the harbor. There were pastel colors on the fronts of the buildings, the facades pink, blue, yellow and, so far, lively site.

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This is back in Havana, a small tower, which functions in the same way that Fort Matanzas in ST John's County functions that guarded the mouth of a river that was the back door to Havana, just as the Matanzas River was the back door to ST Augustine.

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And they're about the same size. This, uh, I'm sure remember the restaurant that was inside this. It was a delightful spot for a. And in Morro Castle there was a bodega or tavern, which was a lot of fun. These are some of the Children in the square in Havana who wanted to pose like Children everywhere, and this isn't a very historical interest.

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But I couldn't resist being an old American car fan taking this photo, which shows five 19 forties and fifties American cars in perfect condition. And it was this way all over. It is amazing, isn't it? A car buff would go into ecstasy in Havana, seeing all of these wonderfully kept 19 forties and fifties Chevrolets, Kaiser's dead souls to Sotos and apparently to keep them going.

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The Cubans are very adept in manufacturing new parts. That's right. Well, those are fascinating. I have a list that Bruce gave me of the archives and other collections that he worked in. I'd just like to, uh, to name them the National Archive of Cuba, the Biblioteca Nacional, Jose Marti, the Archives and Museum of the City of Havana and the archives of the Archbishop Rick of Havana.

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Then, of course, he made with you an expedition of the province of Matanzas, where you and Bruce discovered those remarkable perish registers. Just to give you an idea, I don't know that you've seen Bruce's report yet. Kathy Bruce talks about the protocol is Habaneros the notary documents legal instruments which duplicate the, uh, notary documents and legal instruments of Florida, which happened to have been lost in a short live U.

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S invasion of Florida in 18 12. Now, with this discovery, uh, that Bruce has made, we would be able to replicate that whole collection that had been lost previously. And this is a very exciting fine. Thousands and thousands of pages containing information on on Florida. Well, I know that Bruce will, uh, continue his interest as you will.

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I expect you have a desire to go back if the opportunity arises. Certainly. One of the things I know that Bruce would like to do is to microfilm many of the documents that he discovered there. Um, what about your, uh, continued, uh, interest, Uh, was your appetite wetted by any one particular collection of materials that you found or any, uh, set of buildings or sites?

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Well, I think the restorations of 17th and 16th century structures in Old Havana, And also the artifacts that came from the excavations done before the buildings were restored would be of just immense value to our work here. And there have been studies done of the evolution of all kinds of architectural details that would be greatly useful.

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But the archaeologists, I found, are working on many of the same problems Spanish Indian relation problems as we are and could really help us in our You were impressed, were you not by the amount of archaeological work that's being done in Havana? Yes. Is it of the Is it excavating that constitutes the majority of that labor or what?

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Well, there's a lot of excavation, but there are teams of historians, archaeologists and architects who all work together on the same sort of thing and have a lot of exchange. And it's a situation that we try and strive for here in this country as well. One of the leading archaeologists of Cuba, you hope to have the chance to meet and lo and behold, the Cuban Foreign Ministry made it possible for her.

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Lord is going to spend the entire two week period with you. That was a guide and helped her a great treat and privilege for me. And I think it is important for us to mention that in no way where you are, Bruce hindered in your research there were no limits placed on what you could see or do, and the Cuban authorities where, uh, as helpful as one could dream of of there being completely true and the few things that they didn't think of ahead of time that we might want to do that we asked for later.

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We're always immediately taken care of anything that we wanted was what about the rest of Cuba? Wouldn't it be worth the trip? We could all make it again sometime. Yes, back to save a motion for oral history talking to the townspeople into Santiago, which is the oldest city in Cuba.

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Yes, at the farthest end of the island to the east is Santiago de Cuba, and it was there, in the basement of the Church of Santiago that the parish registers of our ST Augustine were found in 18 70 and eventually, after much negotiation returned to Florida in the first part of the present century.

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And it's thanks to those parish registers that historians are able today to reconstruct the population, um, figures and also demographic shifts in population that occurred in ST Augustine and Florida. And one hopes that we can do the same thing with those documents that you discovered along with Bruce.

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Perhaps we'll find some shifting patterns there that will help us understand what happened to the people of Florida. Yes, when they went to Cuba, and I know that Bruce will join me in saying that we have every intention of using the documentary finds made on this trip to the advantage of Florida history.

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I'm excited about the discoveries the two of you made. I know that Bruce is too, because it will help flesh out the collections that we have at the peak. A young Library of Florida history and Kathy, perhaps sometime our Cuban friends will let you bring home something that you can put in the State Museum collections.

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I want to thank you very much for being with me on conversation. Dr. Kathleen Deagan, archaeologist on the staff of the State Museum of Florida, on the campus of the University of Florida. Thank you, Cathy. Welcome. Mhm, mhm.