00:00:29.640 - 00:01:20.710

from Gainesville, Florida Mhm hello and welcome to another conversation, this one on Historic Preservation, which started out as a movement and then became an enterprise and quite fairly, could be described as an industry today, as government and the private sector combined to restore the historic fabric of our national past and our regional past and our local passed.

00:01:20.870 - 00:01:47.610

And I have the opportunity to chat this evening with two gentlemen who are intimately involved with what the state of Florida is doing. George Percy, who is the director of the State Bureau of Historic Preservation in Tallahassee, and Roy Hunt, who is president of the Trust for Historic Preservation in the state of Florida and recently has been appointed by the secretary of state to the Historic Preservation Advisory Council.

00:01:48.040 - 00:02:02.440

Well, these are titles which led me to believe, gentlemen, that you have all the answers to any question that I ever had about historic preservation. Of course, I know that this is a very ambiguous feel, too, because preservation means a lot of different things to different people.

00:02:02.440 - 00:02:23.620

George, Let's tackle that for a moment. What do you cover? What is the umbrella agency? The Bureau for historic preservation. Well, let me let me say, First of all, the preservation means basically preserving old things. But it's come to mean a little bit more than that recently, rather than the traditional view of taking the best and the brightest.

00:02:23.630 - 00:02:44.520

The Mount Vernon's, for example. Preservation now means more an environmental movement trying to conserve old buildings and also archaeological sites, but basically trying to create an environment that's a happy one to live in, one that has some sense of tradition, some sense of place and time, uh, a much better sort of environment than one.

00:02:44.520 - 00:03:07.750

That's plastic, totally down the main street in the Bureau of Historic Preservation. We deal with a variety of things. We're concerned with the built environment, and we're also concerned with preserving archaeological sites, both prehistoric ones, that our Indian remains in Florida and also historic ones, for example, from the early Spanish settlements or from Seminole wars or the territorial period.

00:03:08.790 - 00:03:36.960

We don't do a lot of preservation directly ourselves. What we try to do is facilitate the work that others do. We're particularly interested in helping local preservation groups, and there are at least 250 around the state undertake their projects. If they want to save an old house, for example, we can provide them technical assistance and tell them how to do it or offer them the encouragement they need and in many cases offer them grant money to assist the work that they want to do.

00:03:37.840 - 00:03:54.370

We have an architect on staff. We can look at their rehabilitation plans. We can help them publicize the work they want to do if they're interested in a community fundraising event and we can actually get down And, uh, not only help them, though, their rehab plans, but as I say provide the money.

00:03:54.380 - 00:04:15.330

It's always matching money. They have to show some good faith. But we do that. We also I should say, um review under the authority of the National Historic Preservation Act, every project in the state of Florida that has federal money in it, every development project for its impact on both historical and archaeological resources.

00:04:15.340 - 00:04:40.110

And we look at over 3000 of these each year and where a project endangers valuable building or an important archaeological site under the Preservation Act in office, like ours has the authority to, uh, not stop the project. But make the planners in the project take a look at it and find out some way to rework the project so that it won't have a bad effect on a building or an archaeological site.

00:04:40.120 - 00:05:01.930

Could you say a little bit about the differences between and among preservation, restoration and reconstruction? Sure, preservation is probably the broadest of the three words, and it encompasses the field of attempting to conserve the at least in historic preservation, to conserve the historic buildings and the archaeological sites.

00:05:02.740 - 00:05:32.670

Restoration is a particular technique of preservation. And, uh, if you think, or if anyone thinks of an older home that they know, uh which is deteriorated or run down, restoration means essentially putting it back exactly the way it was. That would be contrasted with another term we frequently use, which is rehabilitation, which means putting it back into good shape and being sensitive to the historic character, the quality of the structure, but not necessarily doing it exactly the way it was adapting it to some current use.

00:05:32.870 - 00:05:50.430

An older home adapted to become a law office, for example, and reconstruction is a term which is not particularly common in the field of preservation. Reconstructing is, I suppose, restoration is a form of reconstruction, and rehabilitation is a form of reconstruction. Putting something back together again.

00:05:50.440 - 00:06:14.360

I mentioned reconstruction because I'm aware that in ST Augustine, the historic ST Augustine Preservation Board has reconstructed some Spanish buildings on existing foundations that have been excavated and according to plans that have been turned up in Spain. So this sort of thing I know has been done and enables ST Augustine to project the appearance of an old Spanish colonial city.

00:06:14.640 - 00:06:28.390

Whereas most of the original Spanish buildings were allowed to collapse, fall into ruin or were burned, this would be reconstruction where there was actually nothing standing now. But using documentary evidence to put it back, I want to get back to the public sector in just a moment.

00:06:28.390 - 00:07:03.700

But Roy, we have to define the private sector for a moment here. The Florida Trust for Historic Preservation is that entirely financed with private grants. Um, it began as private sector organization and remains so in terms of its corporate charter. We began as a companion, I suppose, to the National Trust for Historic Preservation, and this was really a pilot project for the National Trust to try to create comparable organizations on a state basis.

00:07:03.710 - 00:07:34.800

And we incorporated about six years ago in the last session of the Legislature. We did receive an appropriation of a million dollars, which is a maintenance endowment fund for a property which was given to us a few months ago. A very impressive and very significant early Florida state in Broward County will be operating that state as a museum house in years to come.

00:07:34.810 - 00:07:59.060

And so we did have a direct legislative appropriation, uh, to help with that project. But basically it is private and private funds or are involved in what we do, and what we do is to educate the public two historic preservation in Florida. We advocate preservation as an ethic in Florida.

00:07:59.840 - 00:08:33.350

We provide liaison with the 240 private sector organizations George mentioned, and we are developing resources. Ah, and view all of this is a very important part of the environment. We're concentrating on the built environment, although we're quite sensitive to the natural environment at the same time, are you surprised at the momentum that has developed behind preservation in this state?

00:08:34.040 - 00:08:53.360

This is supposed to be a forward looking, progressive new frontier type of state building, all the while laying down concrete. And yet, at the same time, there is this, uh, movement, which I've called an enterprise in an industry now to preserve and restore. It's as though Florida has come of age and wants to recapture and preserve its past.

00:08:53.640 - 00:09:13.350

George, I I see you 13 to get at this. I don't think that as I mentioned, there's a traditional sense of preservation, which is preserving the individual building and treating it as if it were a museum piece. But really, the approach of preservation today is to get along in the modern world, and we believe very strongly that older buildings are not just older buildings.

00:09:13.350 - 00:09:37.010

Their space, uh, that's needed for downtown revitalization for neighborhood improvement. Uh, it's a lot more energy conscious. It's cheaper to take advantage of an older building and restore it, or put it back into use than it is to make a whole new construction. And our point is that all the while using these existing spaces, it also makes for a much more pleasant environment.

00:09:37.010 - 00:09:51.450

If you use something which has part of the tradition character of Florida involved in it. So we don't see any, um, any contradiction in terms between preservation and growth. We think the preservation is a way of facilitating growth. It's it's one direction that growth can go.

00:09:51.460 - 00:10:09.960

I want to jump in on that way. Well, I think that we would not have seen the amount of rehabilitation we have seen. Were it not for the fact that the federal tax laws changed rather dramatically in 1976. Prior to that time, the federal tax laws encourage destruction of older buildings.

00:10:10.440 - 00:10:42.490

And in 1976 for the first time, there were positive incentives for restoration and for rehabilitation of older buildings. Uh, in 1981 the federal tax laws were revised and I think are still very favorable to this kind of project. And I wonder if communities in Florida, as elsewhere, did not learn that preservation is labor intensive and that most of the money or a larger proportion of the money remains in the community.

00:10:42.630 - 00:11:10.920

A local craftsmen are are given work who might not otherwise be employed in construction, and thus some of the, uh, the money that is invested remains in the community instead of going to outside suppliers or outside construction workers who were brought in. I think that Florida, along with the other states in the United States, has learned that to a certain degree, this this past year, Congress passed the Emergency Jobs Act for 1983 and a component of that for every state was money for historic preservation.

00:11:11.250 - 00:11:35.550

Florida, for example, received almost a half a million dollars. We awarded that in the form of matching grants for 13 projects around the state, and we expect that that will create, over the period of a year, approximately 200 full and part time jobs. I think that there are many people who are beginning to discover that preservation is very labor intensive, beginning to realize the other economic benefits of preservation.

00:11:35.560 - 00:11:54.320

For example, Roy mentioned the tax benefits this past year. There was 16 to $20 million of investment in rehabilitation work throughout Florida that would not have occurred had it not been for the tax breaks to enable the restoration of historic buildings. Now you've been selling preservation to the people of Florida through public service announcements.

00:11:54.320 - 00:12:11.920

We have one such let's put it on the monitor and take a look at it, and then we'll show another as well. Some people think that history should be kept under glass. At the Florida Bureau of Historic Preservation. You believe historic building should be worked in, lived in, even played in.

00:12:11.940 - 00:12:36.810

We can show you how to preserve Florida's past Contact Historic Preservation, the capital, Tallahassee 3 to 301 in Florida, It pays to preserve this message, sponsored by Secretary of State George Firestone, so communities and individuals can write to your bureau and obtain the kind of assistance you described.

00:12:36.810 - 00:12:49.700

And actually, we're asking the preservation groups around the state to help us distribute this and to help monitor the stations to see that these announcements are played. The whole point of the announcement is to try and raise the visibility of preservation and get people to ask.

00:12:49.700 - 00:13:02.310

Well, what is this? Uh, maybe I'll go all the Bureau of Historic Preservation and see if I can learn whether or not it's going to help me in my community. Well, I want to talk a bit at some point about the Capitol building to which was shown briefly there.

00:13:02.460 - 00:13:18.560

That's one of the more remarkable, uh, preservation actions taken in the state of Florida in recent years, and it's it's extraordinary to see today in It's icy. Call it as present form, which really is an ancient form. Let's take a look at another one of those public service announcements.

00:13:23.640 - 00:13:47.650

Florida. We're investing in the future by banking on the past. Saving a sound financial advice. Saving Florida's past can be good for your pocketbook to the bureau. Historic Preservation has information on how you can receive federal tax credits by restoring historic buildings. For more information on whether you qualify, Contact Historic preservation of the capital Tallahassee 3 to 301 in Florida.

00:13:47.680 - 00:14:19.300

It pays to preserve this message. Sponsored by Secretary of State George Firestone. Roy, That blue Victorian building was from Gainesville. It certainly is, and we're very fortunate. See, it's still standing. Some people in Gainesville may recognize it as having once been next to Holy Trinity Episcopal Church, and, of course, it was moved several blocks and rehabilitated as a group of apartments on the land That's behind the, uh, what was the Oliver Austin house?

00:14:19.310 - 00:14:41.220

It's a very great success, and I think it sort of, uh, substantial example for people here in Gainesville. And that's just one example. If one goes to the near northeast sector of the city and the Duck Pond area, one can see house after house being rehabilitated and and sometimes to new, adaptive use as condominiums or apartments.

00:14:42.040 - 00:15:01.200

Uh, we have some slides, some pictures. George. Let's show those and develop this a little bit further. There's the Capitol building and with the new capital behind it, Yes, this is, uh, looking at the old Capitol building in the foreground. This is after restoration. It's coming down the Apalachee Parkway.

00:15:01.200 - 00:15:24.580

It's the main gateway into Tallahassee and the government complex in Tallahassee in this next picture Oh, well, uh, we'll get a next picture, maybe in a minute. But tell me, how old has that capital been restored to not back to its very original configuration. Its original configuration was in 18 45.

00:15:24.590 - 00:15:46.460

Uh, it was added to in 19 oh two again in the twenties again in 36 47 it's been restored to its 19 oh to form Uhh. The Legislature decided to make the restoration. Finally, after much debate in 1978. The restoration was completed in 1982 had its opening.

00:15:47.040 - 00:16:02.190

It's been an extremely popular place since then. I think there was a lot of divided opinion at one point, but now that people see it, they like it very much. Most people, they see it as a symbol of Florida government. And after all, there are 130 years of Florida history that's taken place.

00:16:02.520 - 00:16:16.950

Yes, absolutely. And in these pictures, do you have photograph of the red and white striped awnings that caused a lot of comment when they went up? Alright, I think our pictures are ready again. Let's go on now. What do we have here? Well, we that's an interior picture.

00:16:16.960 - 00:16:39.260

Uh, it's in the rotunda of the Capitol, directly under the dome. It's the main staircase leading up to the second floor from the ground floor, and this is after picture after restoration. These are the original colors and, of course, uh, restored original woodwork. Mhm. This picture is from Macintosh, uh, intellectual county.

00:16:39.260 - 00:16:53.660

It's a district which has been recently listed in the National Register of Historic Places, and this is a typical home in the Macintosh district This is a very good example of the kind of, or at least the beginning of the kind of preservation work which is typical in Florida.

00:16:54.040 - 00:17:12.660

The old capital is rather spectacular and rather different. It is one of the best and the brightest kind of buildings. This sort of building is is the sort of structure we're after, generally with the preservation message. This is the kind of building that participates in neighborhood revitalization or that is converted to other uses.

00:17:13.140 - 00:17:38.700

And this is, as I say, a typical home in a Macintosh. Yes, we know that area well here. This is the railroad station at Macintosh. It's also part of the district listed on the National Register, and, uh, presumably someday could become the focus for a different type of use, rather than a railroad station might well become a A store or a series of offices, the in this picture and the several which follow it.

00:17:39.340 - 00:17:58.270

There are examples of a rather different kind of activity in a rather different kind of threat. This is a picture of an archaeological site on the ST Johns River. It's an Indian shell mound. It was inhabited many hundreds of years ago, probably from about four or 5000 BC on up almost to the period of historic contact.

00:17:58.840 - 00:18:21.450

The shell is the refuse from years and years of living, and what's happening here is that the site is being destroyed. This sort of thing doesn't happen anymore because of an office, a state office like ours. But it represents, uh, well, I won't say the state Department of Transportation, but someone borrowing the mound for Phil Uh, most of these mounds went for road fill in different areas of the state.

00:18:22.340 - 00:18:45.800

This is another example of sight destruction. These are perhaps well intentioned amateur archaeologists out for a good day. Finding a little bit of history in what they're doing in the process of it is destroying an archaeological site. The picture following this is a trash dump, another instance of sight destruction, an archaeological site in the background and the trash in the foreground.

00:18:46.400 - 00:19:04.240

And I think the last picture is an example of sight destruction in the course of road construction. This is a matter of fact, is Interstate 10 being constructed in the vicinity of Tallahassee. The person in the foreground is an archaeologist salvaging archaeological remains. This is not quite as bad as it looks.

00:19:04.240 - 00:19:21.370

The Department of Transportation did provide funds for the salvage of archaeological materials. I did think that we had a photograph of the red and white striped awnings on the new capital. That was the one that, uh all right, So, having seen that and I I missed it in looking at the monitor.

00:19:21.690 - 00:19:37.160

Tell me a little bit about that because, uh, obviously you had some record of the colors, and it's startling to see the capital now with those with the the awnings, the style of warning and the colors that were used on the 19 oh two version of the capital.

00:19:37.940 - 00:20:03.870

And I know in Tallahassee when they first went up, of course, the local newspaper took a poll on who liked them and who didn't. And a lot of people went by and said they looked like, uh a fast food place. I think one of the things we have to remember is that the fast food places got the idea from on things like this which occurred there you are the century, uh, you know, in Saint Augustine, the Castillo de San Marcos, the great Spanish fort has suffered over the years.

00:20:03.870 - 00:20:26.030

It suffered more destruction from tourists than it ever did in the two sieges leveled against it in 17 oh two and 17 40. And the walls are particularly vulnerable to moisture and have experienced some deterioration. The National Park Service some years ago tried a number of theories on how the walls might be stabilized.

00:20:26.190 - 00:20:44.280

One of the solutions was to apply, uh, plastic covering, uh, polyurethane covering or something like that, too. Seal the walls and prevent any further intrusion of moisture. But the Park Service has a rule that it will never do anything that it cannot undo and that it could not undo.

00:20:44.280 - 00:21:08.670

And so it throughout that solution, well, the solution a number of others proposed was put, um, stucco white off white stucco over the walls because that's what the Spaniards did. Many people are unaware that the Castillo did not have the rustic bear cocaina rock appearance that it has today but was covered with a white stucco around with a red band all the way around the top.

00:21:08.670 - 00:21:25.560

Just below the parapets. Uh, the population of Saint Augustine who were apprised of this plan were outraged by the suggestion that a white coat would be put on the Castillo. And I'm sure tourists would be appalled to. But that would really be an act of restoration, wouldn't it?

00:21:25.940 - 00:21:42.760

Yes, it's also a good example of another point, which you touched on. And that is, uh, not only should a rehabilitation work, be sensitive, but in many cases, particularly where there's an adaptive reuse, it ought to be reversible. Uh, if you can take it off, you haven't destroyed the original fabric of the structure.

00:21:42.760 - 00:22:08.860

Someone really does want to come back and restore it later on. I want to go back to this estate in Broward, which you alluded to. Roy and the state Legislature appropriated a million dollars for its preservation. I know that you are aware that Marjorie Merriweather Post gave to the National Park Service her fabled estate, Mara Lago in Palm Beach, and the Park Service was not able to come up with the funds to restore it.

00:22:08.950 - 00:22:32.790

And I don't know what it's disposition is now. But there is an incredible example of a of a state building in the 19 twenties, such as we'll never see again in the state, and I don't know if the building is going to be preserved. Well, um, I think that there are various ways in which it could be preserved, and one of the ways is to, uh, create within that building.

00:22:32.790 - 00:22:55.300

And the dependence is a condominium arrangement which would save the building and keep the grounds is open space. And I think that that probably is the only way in which many large estates can be preserved. Certainly this has been done in other parts of the country and those who by the units, have the pleasure of living in an historic structure.

00:22:55.740 - 00:23:22.760

The structure is essentially maintained and for that matter, remains on the tax rolls. Um, and that certainly is away. This structure could be preserved in Palm Beach. Um, it is my understanding that many in Palm Beach have been opposed to that particular solution. And I know that a private buyer who would occupy the building as a home or a winter home is being sought.

00:23:23.310 - 00:23:41.300

It will be very unfortunate if the building is torn down for high rise condominiums, which is what many in bomb beach. Apparently that favor Oh, they do the favor of God doesn't wish to see the tax rolls increased. See that as a way of doing so.

00:23:41.310 - 00:24:04.360

Well, that would be a great loss. It would indeed. Um, there are other such buildings I know around the state of Florida, and they're being preserved by ingenious means. I hope some solution can be found there. And when we talk about preservation of remarkable structures, I I think of the fantastic collection of Art Deco buildings that one has in Miami Beach.

00:24:04.430 - 00:24:28.860

I think there's some 700 such buildings within one square mile of of Miami Beach, the largest such collection of Art Deco buildings in the world, I guess. Is that right? That's correct. That's correct. I say a little bit about that. What happened, Really. One of the more successful to the state, at least preservation efforts in the state of Florida, largely due to, uh, the initiative in the drive of Barbara Kappelman in Miami Beach.

00:24:28.870 - 00:24:55.690

Her family and her associates, um, in the Miami Design Preservation League. They have taken a downtown area hotel area and preserved it. They made it a tourist attraction again. It has an international reputation. Ah, in addition to an important national reputation, and it's a one of the important parts of an Art Deco association across the United States.

00:24:56.200 - 00:25:22.750

They also have now annually, um, an Art Deco Week in Miami Beach. I think this year it's going to be January, the week of January 13, 14, 15 and 16, where they have a fair. They have booths. They have lots of activities that generally try to take you back to the 19 twenties or so and have you participate in an atmosphere that's conducive to feeling sensitive about preservation.

00:25:22.760 - 00:25:47.700

And then they also hit you with the preservation message. While you're there, it's a very successful downtown preservation effort. It's unlike preservation efforts elsewhere in the state. It doesn't necessarily depend upon, you know, federal funding, community development block grant funding, as you might find in the West Tampa area, for example, uh, it does not necessarily depend upon a lot of the tax benefits that some have taken elsewhere.

00:25:47.700 - 00:26:09.860

Certainly some, uh, it's more a movement as well as a preservation effort. One of the interesting things about it is that is an example of a district that is not 50 years old or many of the buildings are not 50 years old as a general rule of thumb, a building or a district must be more than 50 years old in order to be listed on the National Register.

00:26:09.870 - 00:26:29.400

This is an exception to that general rule, and I think that Fernandina Beach has the largest collection of Victorian homes in Florida. There are fairly well bunched together, and I suppose that's a district to that has been recognized a very homogeneous area. And it's an example of a principle of preservation that poverty is the friend of preservation.

00:26:29.940 - 00:27:13.420

Uh, when the center of the town moved from, uh, north on the island, Amelia Island to to the middle of the island, um, to accommodate the new railroad, Um, the present town was all built in a 10 or 20 year period. I had occasion to take the keeper of the National Register there some years ago, and he was extremely impressed with the homogeneity of this collection, and the reason they remained in that state until preservation became of interest was that people there were not able to do anything with them.

00:27:13.430 - 00:27:32.270

Yes, they couldn't afford to to change them. There was no demand for the real estate there. Well, we're very fortunate that we have that collection, and I hope that more architects who are turned out by universities such as our own have a sense of history and will look to the field of historical architecture.

00:27:32.440 - 00:27:49.570

Crucial Shepherd is a good example in our area of somebody who has an example. Yes, he was the architect of the Capitol, I think also right here in Gainesville, Blair Reeves is an excellent example of yes, Blair reefs on our training students and students who are becoming interested in preservation architecture.

00:27:49.820 - 00:28:16.860

Blair is also organizing architects from the Florida Association of Architects. Getting a preservation architect for I believe it is each county area in the state, someone who will yeah, well, first of all, develop a guide to the important architectural resources of each county, but also will serve as someone who keeps an eye on the architectural resources in the county and, uh, will encourage interest.

00:28:17.240 - 00:28:35.930

Um, and also report instances where valuable historical buildings are in danger of destruction or something along those lines. And Blair has done an extremely good service to Florida preservation. He certainly has and has also worked at Nantucket in restoration activities there. He is one of the truly gifted people in the field.

00:28:35.930 - 00:28:52.220

And I hope that more and more young people who pass through his tutelage will go out into the field and do the kinds of things that you've worked hard to do in your ways. And I'd like to thank you. George Percy, the state historic preservation officer for the state of Florida, And Roy Hunt, president of the Florida Trust for Historic Preservation.

00:28:52.220 - 00:29:49.160

For being with me on conversation. Thank you. Mhm. Uh huh. Yeah.