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mhm from Gainesville, Florida Yeah, by Mike Cannon. And this is conversation. Representative Don Fuquay has been a member of the House of Representatives for 19 years. He represents the Second Congressional District in Florida, which is composed of 21 full counties and parts of two other counties.

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He is the chairman of the Science and Technology Committee of the House. Very important post and one with special interest to me and to others who were fascinated by the recent successful launch and landing of the Columbia shuttle. It's that shuttle that we'll be talking about at the start of this program, and then we'll talk about other interests of Don Folkways in the fields of science and technology.

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Join me as we return in a moment on conversation conversation from the University of Florida, a discussion of social, political, scientific and religious issues of the day. Your host is Dr Michael V. Gannon, Ring professor of ethics and assistant dean of the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences at the University of Florida.

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Oh, well, don, welcome to conversations. It's nice to have you here. Thank you, Michael. It's nice to be on your program. I've watched it many times, and it's I'm honored to be a guest. Well, I'm honored to be with you on this particular occasion, as I was honoured also to be with you.

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And thanks to you at the launch at Cape Canaveral, that was one of the most dramatic moments of my life to stand there and to watch that magnificent technological achievement take place in front of my very eyes. And we were up pretty close, weren't we? Well, it was about three miles from basically from the vertical assembly building that we were right near to the launch site.

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It doesn't seem like it's that far, but it's a long way. Well, I was just like a tourist. I took my camera along. I'm going to bore you for just a moment with no more than five quick slides. Um, I can always prove that I I was there that day.

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I I think if if we ask the technicians to show us uh, that first slide, we'll have somebody. Well, there you are, as a matter of fact, down. If you want to take a look at the at the monitor you're being interviewed by is that Senator Smith Senator Jack Schmidt from New Mexico, who was on Apollo 17, the last, uh, Apollo flight and, uh, was one of the last people to walk on the moon.

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He's now a United States senator from, uh, from New Mexico, serving his first term and as the chairman of the Senate, Uh, Space and Aeronautics Committee of the subcommittee of the Senate Commerce Committee. So he is your counterpart in the Senate? Yes, he is. And we worked very closely together.

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I've known Jack, uh, many years, even back when he was an astronaut. I apologize for the photograph. It's not the best in the world. That brown color that you see in the foreground is the top of somebody's head. I still haven't got my camera work down.

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Pat. Yeah, let's take a look at the next picture. Now that's a little bit better. Yeah, that's the vertical assembly building in the back. It's probably one of the second largest buildings in volume in the in the US today. I think the only other larger building is a Boeing company building out in Seattle, where they build the some of the new airplanes.

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But you really see the role of cameras that are there by a lot of the news media that was taking photographs and others and some of the people that were there at this at this particular site. I understand that there were 3500 accredited news people there, one of the largest we've never had.

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Yes, and in the background or the stands where we found ourselves with some 4000 people in front of that huge building. Uh, just another note about that building. Somebody told me that three and three quarters Empire State buildings could fit inside that vehicle assembly building. The volume is so huge.

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Well, more pictures. Let's take a look at this next one. Ah, I only show this because one of my heroes is there in the very top row of the stands at the end of the stands, Neil Armstrong, the first man to walk upon the surface of the moon.

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I had the opportunity to shake his hand and talk with him. That was quite a moment. Yes, I talked with Neil after, and he was very elated. He's a very wonderful person, and it's contributed a great deal to the space program. All right, now, Let's go on to the next picture, and this will be our last one.

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I did take more of the launch, but this is one reminder, Don, of what we saw, what were your feelings at this time? You oversaw this program for many years as chairman of the Science and Technology Committee and more particularly as chairman of the Subcommittee on Space, and this must have been a great thrill to see that happen.

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Well, well, it was one that it was safely operated. But having been involved in the space program my entire career in, uh, in Congress to see this program which I've been involved with since its exception inception. It was a great thrill. I've known the people that built it.

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I've known people have tested all the equipment the astronauts had suffered with before they left, and, uh, I know them very well. So it was a lot of personal emotion with me, and, uh, I'm just very delighted that it was successful all the way through. Didn't you also sit in the simulator where they were able actually to simulate parts or all of the flight?

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Yes, They have a very, uh, probably one of the finest simulators in the world. Uh, that's one of the spinoffs we get of the space program. You develop these things and they have other use for pilots training. And but I have flown a simulation. I've never flown the shuttle, of course, but the flown the simulator with Bob Crippen, and it's a very thrilling thing.

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You get a lot of the sensation that you do if you were actually flying in the shuttle, except maybe some of the vibrations that they had when they're going through the sound barrier. But it was a very thrilling experience. Some of the sites that you see made from pictures of others that have made you feel like you're right there.

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Well, I I wondered what it would be like to be inside that vehicle when it first blasted off the pad pad 39 down at the Cape because the ground shook where I stood 3.5 miles away and the noise was deafening. It was really a remarkable. I don't think they had some vibration, but I don't think it was that that greatest matter of fact, according to the to the crew, it's been it was a very comfortable ride.

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Now, after the launch, you went to Houston to the space center, where you observe the work of Mission control or a shuttle control. Whatever it was going to make a little bit about that. Mission control is where the entire mission once it's lifted off from the Cape, too.

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Control shifts to the Houston center, and they monitor the entire, uh, progress of the remainder of the flight. As you know, right after liftoff, it was concerned about the tiles that had left. We were very concerned that that whether that was limited to the maneuvering pods on the back of the shuttle or if in fact, there have been some underneath or other indications when we arrived in Houston that afternoon, they do have monitors underneath the belly of the spacecraft.

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And no, none of those sensors had indicated any any activity. Of course, the crew had been able to another critical movement was the open and closed the doors. If they open them, they couldn't come back unless they closed them. But they they did those maneuvers. They tested the equipment and found that on the wings that they made some observations that the tiles were still on and we monitored how they were going.

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It was It takes about 90 minutes to orbit the entire earth, and it's really quite a way to travel if you've ever traveled a long distance on even we think Jets are fast. But you told me a comparison, uh, about going from Shanghai to Hawaii and the shuttle going from China to Hawaii.

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The shuttle, Uh, we flew nonstop in a jet and it took us approximately 10 hours and a lot of jet lag. The shuttle makes it in 15 minutes. Comparison of the speed that they travel in. A lot of people were worried about the tiles, and I was among them.

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I remember how so many of the tiles blew off when the spacecraft was Ferried on top of a 7 47 from the West Coast to Cape Canaveral. And I thought that if in that relatively mild turbulence so many tiles were lost, what would happen during launch and they were very critical, weren't they?

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Because those thermal protective tiles, um, enable the craft to re enter the atmosphere without burning up and burning up the people inside. But, uh I understand that the Air Force had cameras with high powered lenses, uh, secret cameras, I'm told, which succeeded in spotting the shuttle as it went past.

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And they were of the lenses presented a picture of such magnitude that they could actually see the underside of the craft and determined from those shots that there were no tiles missing. It appeared from the photographs that they made that there was no damage, But the towel you mentioned, they serve a very useful purpose.

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A matter of fact we couldn't go into and from space without some type of protective coating. Uh, these are very, uh, made from a silicon base, but there are about two inches thick. They're very light, almost as lighter than a sheet of paper, and can can absorb intense heat 234 degrees Fahrenheit.

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But the plane that was not understanding all of the problem, and the engineers finally understood the problem. We're able to make the Kyle stick. They even use stethoscopes as a doctor uses to test as he thumps on your back to thump the tiles type device to see that there were no echoes and that the towels were in fact sealed 100% underneath.

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Plus, they had to put a mesh gauls under the bottom to absorb the torque. That aircraft has summer, too. If you take ice out of your refrigerator and a plastic ice tray and turn it upside down and twisted a little bit pop out, well, that's what the problem they would have with the tile.

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Uh, they were able to do that, and it withstood all of that very well. And that appears to be not a problem. That's great. I remember at the launch talking with one of your aides, Scott Crossfield, who is a famous former pilot of the X 15 rocket plane.

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And that was quite a thrill to talk with him. And I asked him about the tiles and he said, No, that problem has been solved. I wouldn't worry about the tiles. I would worry about a problem that perhaps we haven't stopped because something else could come along.

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That's right. And as it happened, there was a problem with the computers. There was a very unique problem with the computer that there had four computers and a memory computer, and these all made they talk to each other, and they told the memory computer what happened.

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But in the test, there were not Two of them were not talking to the memory computer. It was off of sequence by about 1/40 of a second. And, uh, they they were able to understand that they could reproduce that every 74th time. So it was an anomaly that, uh, I'm sure computer people have never witnessed before, But in a space venture, 1/40 of a second and on a computer is very, very important.

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When you got out to Houston and talked with the people responsible for this successful launch, did they explain any of those details? Did they stay up all night working? Yes. Yes, they did. And, uh, they stayed up. You want to reproduce it to see what would happen if it reproduced itself so they would under understand it, they were able to reproduce it.

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Uh, they said then had they known what they knew then that they could have gone ahead and launched and corrected it. But because they did not know they were not going to launch. And I think they made the right decision. Don't take make reckless, irresponsible decisions in matters that important.

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And we'd waited that long for the shuttle to go. We could certainly wait another 24 36 hours. You went out to California, then to Edwards Air Force Base to watch the landing. Uh, most of us watched that on television. I'd like to know what it was like to be there in person When you you first knew what was your first indication that the shuttle had made it through the atmosphere safely.

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Well, we were there at in the Mojave Desert at the Edwards Air Force Base, and the afternoon before we had flown around the summer of the flight pattern that the crew would take. We were briefed at exactly how they would come in. They had some loudspeakers giving the countdown when the Columbia notified Houston that they made it through OK, there was a great deal of joy and relief, and we felt like there was no problem.

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But there is a very critical problem coming through back into the to the atmosphere. We've been able to do it routinely, but it is a very, very critical maneuver and one very essential, just as the burn that you have to Deorbit is a very critical maneuver, and this is very, very critical.

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But then we really knew they were back when they they were coming right over where we worried about 50 ft. Of course you could not see them, but there was a clap clap about the sound of a shotgun going off, which is a sonic boom. We knew they were there, and it was a big cheer when that happened there made their turn and came back into land.

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Actually, on television there was better view of what happened, and we could really see from on the ground until they came in on the final approach. But to see him put down and know that everything was okay and the crew was fine and had made such a pinpoint landing, uh was certainly spectacular in itself.

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Oh, it surely was. And it gave a lift of the spirits of America, and it gave a lot of satisfaction of a deep sort and well deserved sort to the many people who have worked on this project over the course of years and years. And yet, in the House and Senate, there are critics of this program uh, one of them, Senator Proxmire of Wisconsin, and you have discussed this matter with him, perhaps even debated the matter with him.

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What is the criticism and how do you respond to it? The criticism being that the shuttle is not as useful of vehicle as it has been argued by NASA to be or that it is only good for military purposes. And so on. What? That's one of the issues that it's that it's a military vehicle.

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Well, the shuttle is a transportation system is not designed, uh, to carry a military payloads as we generally think of it as bombs, or are to be a NASA to be, or that it is only good for military purposes. And so on. What our That's one of the issues that it's carry satellites that are used for surveillance.

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And this surveillance helps us better understand what's going on in the world and, I think, helps reduce world tensions, particularly in the Middle East. The maneuvers that of Poland. Recently, I think, had we not had very verifiable satellite pictures, that we could prove to the Russians that we knew what they were doing, that this did in fact create world opinion, two other people nonaligned as well as aligned countries to put pressure on the Soviets not to invade Poland.

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And I think here again is where Space has added in trying to reduce the worlds tensions. And that's worth. That's where the military payloads coming. We have military communications, satellites, military weather satellites. Uh, and it's important for our military people to know what the weather is in the Soviet Union.

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Uh, if they wanted to launch an attack, could they, in fact, if it were fog? It's very important to know those things. We study the weather in other parts of the world more than just our weather service does, uh, and and in communication is very important to communicate.

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One of the worst things we can have is a breakdown of communications between our own forces so that a lot of communication, weather and reconnaissance satellites at the military use is now one of the other arguments that it could be used in social programs here on Earth.

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And I don't think the space program or any other should be a W p a make work type program. But all the money spent in the space program is spent here on Earth. No money spent in space is to develop technologies, develop new methods that we can do things to better understand through flying experiments that we have.

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For instance, one of the new one of the pharmaceutical companies is planning to fly one of the early flights to develop a better way to make serum that can make it more pure in a vacuum. Zero g atmosphere. We have others who want to make manufacturing.

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The other is the cost of it. Senator Proxmire makes the point that that it's we could still use the expendable vehicles well. It costs about $25 million every time we use a delta. Now that's a small vehicle for most of the communications satellites. It won't put any of the reconnaissance satellites because they are larger.

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It won't carry any laboratories in space. It's a small because $25 million for one payload. The shuttle will cost about $40 million per launch, but you can carry four of the delta payloads in that, so it is economical. We have a laboratory we're doing with the with the Europeans, European Space Agency.

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That will be a fantastic operation where Nobel Laureates can be in their laboratories and communicate with their students in space and conducting very exotic experiments that cannot be done here on Earth. Very fascinating. And also an orbiting telescope is in the orbiting telescope. The space telescope will be put into orbit by the shuttle will give us 10 times the resolution that we can get in any other place and review of the planets and so forth.

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Plus the other thing, the shuttle can retrieve satellites. Getting from Earth to orbit is a very expensive proposition, getting escaping the earth's gravity. From then on, it's less energy. Uh, it takes less energy to get into geosynchronous orbit or even to go out into deep space, as we did with the Voyager where we went to Jupiter and Saturn.

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Uh, and those are very important programs, and they have suffered because of the shuttle because of the tremendous money that went into the shuttle. But I hope now that we can get more of the space science programs back on because they are very important for us to to understand our own Selves and what happened to the planets and to their their systems that they have their environmental systems, their air there, the arid conditions that many of them have, the temperature variances that they have.

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I think we can learn a lot about what may happen to us on Earth Don. One of the more technical objections to the shuttle that I have read in the last several weeks is that it occupies too low and orbit to be effective for many of the programs for which the shuttle was originally conceived.

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I understand that the shuttle, as originally designed, would have been larger, for one thing and would have occupied a much higher orbit and that, as it is now, to put satellites into space, the satellites carried in the cargo bay of the shuttle would have to have small rocket boosters to send them into a much higher orbit, say, 22,500 miles.

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Isn't that the geosynchronous? Yes. Um, how do you answer that? Well, the shuttle, it was always, uh, envisioned that the shuttle would have to have an upper stage, but the main part was the was the getting from Earth to 20 G gravity and into orbit. That's where it takes the big, big payload to get up there.

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The propulsion. Once we get there, it's very easy. You can almost have a a match to get somewhere else. I'm certainly oversimplifying it, but the we will have to have something to get out into geosynchronous orbit. We have various types of of expendable vehicles that can be modified for that.

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Eventually, we will have an all purpose type, uh, upper stage that can be used for various various types. Uh, and if we have man going to any of the planets, we will have to have even more of of a propulsion system and electric island system or some type of system that will give a boost as they go through space.

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Even as fast as that is, it took 1977. The Voyager was launched, and it was only last fall and earlier this year that he gave went to Saturn. It takes a long, long trip. It's but but there will be and, uh, and that can be developed and well and will be developed.

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It's amazing what's happened in our lifetimes, isn't it? I was reflecting last night that I was born the year that Lindbergh flew the Atlantic, and in that short, comparatively, I like to think a short space of years, Uh, we've landed on the moon. We have created a true spaceship that can land and, uh, that can take off from Earth and land back on Earth.

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It is just incredible to think of what is going to happen in the decades ahead. The young people at the University of Florida. Now we'll see marvels and wonders which we cannot even imagine. Yes, I think, back of my father, who was born at the beginning of this century and still alive, uh, that it was only in 19 3 that the Wright brothers made their first escape from Earth only a very few moments.

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But then we saw Lindbergh. We saw the Apollo program. We see the space shuttle, Uh, and, uh and I wondered now I thought in 1969 when my son, who is a freshman here at the university, was seven years old and so the Apollo program, where would be when he was 20 years old?

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We did not envision the space shuttle at that time. We have the space shuttle and and I think it would be around for a while because of the immense cost that it is, too, to do something else. But I think you're in another 2030 years. The space shuttle will look like a Model T and we'll have much more advanced space shuttle type vehicles and probably have an orbiting platform in space that people will be working from building some type of large structures that probably manufacturing.

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You know, if you manufacture ball bearings in space and everywhere out because they're perfect, perfect and the theory of a ball bearing is it. There's equal weight on all sides, but we can't do them that way on Earth because of gravity. We do a lot with blood, plasma and many other things that it has tremendous benefits in space and the couple of minutes remaining.

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I want to mention the fact that you are a frequent visitor to our campus, not only because we are in your district, but also I understand, because there are many things being done here by our physicists and chemists and engineers that contribute to the space program and, uh, for example, the development of certain liquid fuels, I think was a major program here.

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That's correct. We're very fortunate that the University of Florida is is a very fine school and not because it's my alma mater, but on our Committee on Science and Technology. We have jurisdiction over all of the research and development, non military and the federal government. And I go to a lot of universities.

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I go to a lot of labs, visited a lot of foreign countries and see a lot of very exciting things. I'm always very proud of the University of Florida and what it does in the contribution that it makes and the excellence that we have in many of our disciplines that are that are pursued here, uh, and materials and so many things that we have that, uh, we can all be very proud of this university, and I would put it up among any of them.

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What about the funds that support the research that is done here in the President Reagan administration? Are we likely to see a cutback in those funds? Well, there's been a general retrenchment of all types of funds, but I might say in basic research that that has been the most sacred of all of them.

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So while it will not be expanding, as we maybe had hoped that he would, I don't think basic research is going to fare too badly, even under the Reagan numbers. So we there is great hope and it's great. And I think that's a recognition of the importance of basic research to to are not standing as a country, standing as a country, not only in such programs as space but also the general productivity level of our society.

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We are suffering by comparison with some others are very concerned about that and that this contributes to all of that. As a matter of fact conversations with the president. He has indicated his support in the tax package for some type of expanded relief for industry that so that they may support university research and increase that participation Well, that's very encouraging to hear and once again, Don.

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It was a thrill to be with you down at Cape Canaveral, and it was fascinating to hear your experiences, which I did not have the chance to share at Houston and out at Edwards Air Force Base. It was a momentous event in our lives, and perhaps it truly is as one of the astronauts.

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Younger Crippen once said The dawn of the true space age. Thanks very much for being with me on conversation, Congressman Don Fuquay, that was