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Hello, I'm Mike Cannon, and this is conversation. No virtue was more assiduously cultivated in the antebellum South than was honor. We may say that honor was the measure of how a person stood in society, or at least how a person thought he should stand in society.

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And what a person thought about his dignity, his inner personhood and honor felt was honor claimed it stood for the very essence of a person. Thus, for one man to call another a poll Troon a coward or a liar was to invite very frequently a physical challenge.

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Such challenges sometimes took the form of ritual combat, which we call dueling. We'll be talking about doing on this program, and we'll also be talking about honor in a larger context, because it may well have been this concept of honor, so all embracing it proved to be that stands at the origins of the greatest duel of all, which we call the American Civil War.

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So a conversation about honour, duelling and war when I return in a moment with my guest Mhm, Yeah, yeah, yeah! Conversation from the University of Florida and exchange of ideas in the fields of history literature, science, religion and public affairs. Your host is Michael Gannon, professor of history and associate dean of the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences.

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My guest on this program is Bertram Wyatt Brown, Richard Jamil Bauer, professor of history in the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences of the University of Florida. Burt. Welcome back to conversation. Thank you very much, Mike. It's very good to be here. We talked a couple of years ago about a book that you had recently published at the time called Southern Honor.

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Ethics and Behavior in the Old South. It has been much acclaimed and justifiably so. And very recently you have published Yankee Saints and Southern Sinners, published by the Louisiana State University Press. And in the context of both books, I'd like to talk with you a little bit about something you address called Dueling.

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Dueling seems to be a physical and combative expression of what you've described in detail as Southern honor. At least Southern honor offended. Let's talk about some dueling incidents, and perhaps in so doing, we can get at what you mean by honor. For example, would you tell the story of Andrew Jackson and Charles Dickinson and their duel of 18 oh six.

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Well, Mike, that's one of the most interesting duels, I suppose that took place in the early 19th century. One does have to remember that. There was, of course, the famous duel between Vice President Aaron Burr and Alexander Hamilton. That rather overshadowed this other affair. But in terms of Southern history, the Dickinson Jackson duel was certainly one of the most interesting and also from a national point of view, because Jackson, of course, became president later, and this duel was to haunt his presidency to some degree.

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Yankees, of course, thought that he was guilty of murder in actual fact, because there had been such a turn in the North against the practice of dueling. The Hamilton Burr duel had actually spawned that hostility in the North, and there were very few in the North after that.

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It became strictly a Southern style, continuing on into the Civil War period. The Jackson Dickinson duel took place in Nashville as a result of about six months of acrimony between these two parties and their friends, and I emphasize that it was that long time that was required for the duel to actually take place, and it also is interesting that it was a matter of politics as well.

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Jackson was at the time Brigadier general of the Marrow District and the Militia, a very prominent man, a man of rising power and wealth, as well as political presence and stature. Dickinson, on the other hand, was a relatively young man, but a very ambitious one. He'd come from Philadelphia, and he came with with a reputation for being an excellent shot, a very good sharpshooter.

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And, of course, it was known that Jackson was not really much of a shot at all. He was a great military hero already, but certainly not known for his marksmanship. The reason for the dual actually arose from another great Southern customer of the day, and that was the matter of horse racing.

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Everybody enjoyed that sport in those days. It was indeed the sport of kings, but also the sport of frontiersmen. And Jackson had a very famous horse named Truxton. It was an Arabian, and it was well known. Actually, it was nationally known for speed and endurance. Um, Major Irwin, who was a relative of Charles Dickens Dickinson, was the owner of arrival mayor named Plow Boy, and he put his plow boy up against Truxton.

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And there was to be a very large pool of money. Bet on the two horses. And unfortunately, though, according to the Irwin camp, anyhow, Plow Boy came down with an illness and couldn't actually run, and so we had to forfeit the some that have been put up.

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Jackson's people said, Of course he was just a coward, and it was a matter of his really trying to get out of a bad bet, a bad deal. Well, acrimony did develop over the accusations back and forth between these two camps, And what is interesting about the duel is actually that it was not really fought at first between the principles.

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In fact, it was not fought for those purposes at all. What happened here was that one of the members of the Dickinson Irwin Group or gang, you might say, almost like a two gangs in West Side Story or something of that sort, one of them, by the name of Thomas Swan.

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A young lawyer, uh, made an attack on Andrew Jackson's reputation, saying that, uh, he had understood that he was spreading rumors that Jackson was spreading, spreading rumors against uh, Major Irwin and against his own friend and, uh, and sponsor Dickinson. Jackson heard these remarks and threw him into the fire at a local tavern.

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Thomas Swan then challenged him to a duel, and he said, Well, you're just a young whipper snapper and I'm not gonna fight someone as menial as you. And of course, this was very important. A dual had to be fought between peers. It couldn't be between one person who was too old and another two young or between individuals thought to have different social standings or moral standings, for that matter.

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And so, of course, Swan went back to his friend Dickinson and Dickinson, then felt it incumbent upon him to represent his friend Swan in a duel. And so he then wrote a card, which was placed in the local newspaper, which accused Jackson of having maligned his family, the Irwins, and of having failed to live up to his own reputation of being a man of honor by refusing to fight this duel with Swan.

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And so, of course, Jackson then had to respond by sending a challenge. Now all of this and actually there are many other aspects to it, too. But all this took place over six months. Time before you get to the actual dual, there are a couple of points that are very striking here.

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One. The fact that Swan was considered by Jackson as not having the same social standing. Therefore, Jackson felt no obligation to duel with him at the same time. That would have been a slight to Swan, wouldn't it? Uh, it would be to put him down very much very significant way.

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So Dickinson then rallied to the cause of his friend, sensing, I suppose, an honorable obligation to do so. That's right. But the second point I want to make is that when Dickinson posted his challenge, that was something personal and direct on Dickinson's part. If, on the other hand, Dickinson had made slurs against Jackson's wife, Rachel, from a distance, and it only reached Jackson by second or third hand, it would not be a matter for dueling.

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That actually did take place. There was the question of Rachel's status. You see, she had married Jackson at a time when she thought she had a divorce from her previous husband, divorces were very rare in that time. But the Virginia Legislature did not record any such divorce, and it became known that there was a misunderstanding about this.

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And so it turned out that Jackson and Rachel then had to remarry after a divorce was finally granted. But they had been then, technically, living in sin. And in those days, all of this was, of course, taken as not just an accident of fate or something of that kind, but an actual slur on on one's character.

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And Jackson was very sensitive on this issue. And apparently Dickinson had made some remarks of that character about Rachel. Jackson had confirmed him and said, I understand through second or third parties, whatever that you made these remarks. Dickinson then apologized. He said, I am sorry. I did So I was in my cups.

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And what the man says under the influence of alcohol must be excused and so on and and I take back whatever offensive remarks there may have been. Jackson was then satisfied, all right, but now we have a direct personal challenges. Dickinson posts is notice. That's right, and once it's in print, it cannot be retracted because there it is in black and white.

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No one can dispute what was said, if it's if it's left in the realm of verbal abuse of one sort of another, their methods of resolving the issue. But it's much more difficult when it's in print. And so the dual did take place took place in Logan County, Kentucky, across the state line.

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Why? Well, that was to avoid the charges of of, uh, murder or manslaughter. That and there were actually anti dueling laws on the books in most Southern states. So that, um, if that took place across the line, well, then you would have to have an extradition.

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But no one is going to be extradited to a neighboring state to stand trial. And so it took place then at this tavern on the other side of the Tennessee Kentucky line. And, uh, the principles were there, of course, as well as their seconds. Uh uh.

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An evening was spent and rather enjoyable company the night before. But then at dawn, of course, the affair usually does. It usually does take place at the early hours. Not exactly sure why they wanted to get up at such a a time to die, but so they did, and and it's all very well orchestrated.

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There's a ceremony of ritual surrounding this event. Yes, and that's a major point of the dual itself. It was to prevent the impulse murder. It was because that could lead to feuds. And in this time, so many families were related and if the few to develop it caused all kinds of anarchy and emotional and psychological and political difficulties.

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And to avoid that, this was these rituals were performed so that no one could say somebody has violated the Queensbury rules in effect. But instead it's, you know, at a certain number of paces and with certain weapons that have been inspected with surgeons, present witnesses and so on, so that there isn't any charge of a stab in the back in the middle of the night or something of this kind.

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And so it was now, when the duel took place, Dickinson fired first, as you would expect, being the sharpshooter, and he was utterly amazed when Jackson just swayed a little bit and then stood. His ground did not fall down dead because he swore to himself that he must have struck him.

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There was a puff on his jacket that he could see was there. There was a little dust from the dusty jacket of the highway, you know, on the trip up, I suppose. And yes, there was signs that he did hit his target. But Jackson was still standing, and so Dickinson moved off ground.

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He moved back, sort of in shock. And And Major Overton, who was the second for General Jackson, said, Move to your mark, sir, because if you were to violate this and you were to move either forward or to run away, you could be hit by B shot by the seconds your own second by your own second.

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Or by this probably the second of the other party party, uh, for violating the rules. So he had to stand his ground. Needless to say, he tried to make himself as small as good by moving sideways in Haley, right? But Jackson then lowered his gun and click, and the gun did not explode.

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There was a misfire. At least the gun was at half cock, and so I didn't actually go off. And there was a dispute over that because he then deliberately re cocked the weapon and then came down a second time. And at that time he did strike him in the stomach and and Dickinson was on the ground, and within 24 hours he was dead.

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The bullet went through his back. As a matter of fact, you wrote, That's right, That's right. And he hemorrhaged so severely that he died shortly afterwards. It was a very, uh Well, it wasn't a quick death. It was a very agonizing one as often. What was the dispute about about having cut the pistol twice?

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Well, that meant it was deliberate. It wasn't in self defense, and you could always claim in a dual, I suppose, if it came to a trial or whatever, that you were firing in self defense. Of course it was arranged that you would be defending yourself in that fashion.

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But by deliberately firing a second time that this indicated premeditated murder. That was the political opposition would make such a claim as that. But he had every right by the rules of dueling to fire the second time. And then, of course, Jackson moved up towards the tavern and Major Overton came to him said.

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Did he hit you? Did he hit you? We all saw the puff of smoke, you know of dust. And he said, Oh, he picked me a little. Jack had done more than that, but he managed to make it all the way to his bedroom so that he would not give the advantage of knowledge to the opposition.

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And Dickinson died not knowing whether he struck him or not, because no one in the Jackson camp we're going to tell anyone on the other side whether he had struck or not. But the bullet had actually bruised or broken Jackson's ribs, two ribs and lodged near his heart.

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That's right. It was a quarter of an inch of his heart, and it had gone through a punctured a lung as well. Uh huh. Jackson was to carry that bullet thereafter, because no surgeon at that time was skillful enough to remove a bullet that close to the heart.

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Um, and it gave him a great deal of pain and agony, physical agony thereafter. But of course, he did survive it, and it was a, as I say, a dual that was going to affect his career very much in the future, too, but he could claim that he had salvaged his honor.

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He had one of the interesting things about honor. However, in this respect in dueling is that while that is always the claim, I demand satisfaction was the phrase that very often was used in making the challenge that usually the individual who survived the duel was not satisfied.

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That is, um, there was an emotional, uh, consequence that they hardly ever anticipated. And that was the recognition that they had killed someone else and that the party who died usually was honored more than the man who survived. What an irony is very ironic. And sometimes it led to mental depression, and you find that duelists who fought more than one and had killed more than their share of individuals.

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Usually we're trying to re establish their own sense of of happiness or self satisfaction and never quite getting there. And the more they dueled. Of course, the more people became afraid of them, the more they were shunned socially, uh, and or at least not in any overt way.

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Because, of course, you could move in the regular ordinary circles of society as you had before, but nevertheless, people are gonna be a little wary of you, you know, a little concerned. It's almost like having an evil eye that people are going to be mistrustful. They don't know when you may explode again.

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Yes, One of the most famous duelists of the early 19th century in the South was a Mississippian named Alexander McLean. I think he fought four or five duels, and his reputation gave him many more than that, probably, or at least legend has. But he finally ended up committing suicide on the grave of his wife.

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But it's also thought that it was not just her death, but these duels that had led him to this end, where he felt he could no longer vindicate himself in any fashion. And so he died in that in that way. And he's not an unusual character in that.

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Along those lines, I believe that you have written birth that most of those who fought duels were lawyers, editors and legislators. That's right, and of course, very often they were all three because in those days there wasn't a great deal of specialization and a journalist might be a legislator and a lawyer as well.

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Uh, that's true. Something like 90% of the duels were supposedly fought by lawyers. And the reason for it is that it was in the realm of power. Of course, that we're dealing here lawyers, politicians, editors, All our, uh, individuals seeking to make their reputation before a larger public and power is is the name of the game and duels.

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Then figure in the whole process of of a power seeking so that you find that very often, as in this particular instance of the Jackson Dickinson duel, that the young lawyers surrounding these individuals and politicians are the ones who are doing the actual fighting. Sometimes it's to vindicate their own honor, sometimes to vindicate the honor of what you might call their patrons.

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Now in politics today, um, to get on a good committee in Washington, say, in this last election, it's very helpful to have a patron, someone who is senior to you, who's been around, who knows the ropes. You're a freshman congressman, and there's another senior from your home state of Texas, say, Sam Rayburn, in relationship to Lyndon Johnson, this sort of thing, and so they can.

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They can smooth the way for you to get the good appointments, to be nominated for a particular office or for a particular committee assignment. And so there is a loyalty that builds up a sense of father son personal loyalty. And so if someone attacks, uh, your your sponsor, your patron, you're gonna feel obliged to lay your life down on the line for him.

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And he, in turn, may be forced by special circumstances to lay his life down for you. All right, now that leads me, then to the question, How does this concept of honor offended and honor defended help explain the origins of the Civil War? Well, I think that Southerners who engaged in this kind of activity of dueling a very strong sense of reputation, as you mentioned at the beginning, and I thought you did extremely well to explain honor in terms of its social value.

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I think that what really upset the Southerners was not that slavery was attacked. But it was the manner of the attack and the feeling that they were seen as morally inferior in the eyes of the rest of the world by the attacks of the abolitionists and Republicans Abraham Lincoln and what they call the black Republicans.

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Um, there could have been criticism, perhaps of a milder sort that might not have irritated them. But coming as it did in terms of political power, the right to move slaves, for example, into the New Territories acquired from Mexico. Um, what the North was saying is you shouldn't do that because slavery is evil.

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Slaveholders are basically evil. And to allow them to move into that region is going to cut out good Yankee righteous Puritans who believe in the Bible and God and so on. And, uh, it's just spreading this this, uh, cancer of slavery even further. Uh, and of course, we're talking about genuine, uh, political power that is the right to do what you wish with the territory with will.

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With the nation as a whole, as well as a question of social reputation and moral reputation, all these things can combine together and they're not easily distinguishable. And while I would never say that the whole issue was caused by honor because really the issue is slavery and anti slavery.

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But it is in terms of honor that this power play between the two sections is worked out, and it is an ethical question. Yes, it was not just an economic challenge. We don't like your peculiar institution and the economy upon which its base, That's right, and we're going to rid you of it.

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That was one form of challenge, no doubt, and a very serious one. Grievous one. But there was something deeper. There was an assault upon the integrity and honor of the slaveholders and those allied with them. Exactly. And the clergy, of course, would go along with us to the Southern clergy saw nothing wrong with slavery.

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They said it was God given. It was given to us. There's a warrant in the Old Testament. Is the slavery Yes, that's the slaves. The northerners are the ones who are godless, with all their ISMs of feminism and and socialism and other things that they saw as innovations that were very dangerous.

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An example is again back to the incident of a duel, the fight between, or rather, the assault on Charles Sumner, an abolitionist in Massachusetts. In May of 18 56 an assault conducted by a congressman from South Carolina named Preston Brooks. Uh, Sumner had attacked the Southerners, particularly South Carolinians, for having been cowards in the American Revolution.

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He said that this was a result of their having this terrible institution of slavery, and the result was even further exemplified in the bloody affairs in Kansas. And his speech was, in fact, some 50 pages long. It was called The Crime against Kansas, and Brooks took exception of these remarks, and also because someone had attacked one of his relatives as well and struck him over the head while he was in the Senate chamber with a gutter perch, a cane.

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And, uh, poor Mr Sumner was lying there, unable to get out from under the chair, 6 ft tall. But he was a massive man, but he couldn't couldn't escape the blows, and, uh, he was rendered unconscious. Meanwhile, the other senators were standing around watching without actually intervening to until it became evident that Cain was broken and they finally pulled him off.

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The reason why Brooks did this, of course, was that he claimed that Sumner was not morally his equal and that he deserved this lashing. This, um, basically assault because he was not morally capable of a duel, and the interesting thing is that in the North, probably no event, Um, except for John Brown's raid, perhaps, and the Abraham Lincoln's election.

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But with those exceptions, no event really stirred Northern Honor as much as that attack on summer because it was seen as a cowardly act in the Southern press, however, there was at first a kind of well, this sort of thing shouldn't occur on the Senate floor.

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But when they saw the Northern reaction, they stood by Brooks and said that he was a hero, that this man did not deserve to be treated as an honorable figure deserving of a dual, but instead should be cart whipped in the minute that we have remaining.

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May I say that in view of your perception and analysis, I have this picture of the assault on Fort Sumpter as being a glove slap across the face. Is that too simplistic? Well, I think by that time well, I think that the timing of it honor may have figured in the timing of it that Jefferson Davis felt that he could not wait any longer that they had to show that this new nation really existed.

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And the only way to prove its existence to prove the honor, you might say of the Confederacy well as to fire the first shot. In that sense, it is a slap across the face saying, Here I am. I challenge you to come get me if you want.

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In a way, I I think that that perhaps, is somewhat oversimplifying a very you know, interesting and complex set of events. But And though there were no Geneva rules of warfare, in effect, there were certain rules that were observed in the actual combat. Uh, that's right there.

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There were. And there actually were, of course, duels in the South during the war between some of the generals and that did not sit very well with their superiors. That's going to have to be another conversation and a very interesting one, I'm sure. As this one is Ben Burton.

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Many thanks to you for being my guest on conversation and talking about honor, dueling and the American Civil War at least its origins. Thanks again. Mhm. Yeah. Mhm. Right? No, no, no, no, no, no, no.