00:00:00.540 - 00:00:18.660

Uh, Captain Cooper, thank you so much for agreeing to sit down and talk with me about your experiences. And I wonder if we could start if you wouldn't mind by talking a bit about how you ended up getting involved in working in the Panama Canal Zone.

00:00:18.940 - 00:00:49.360

Okay, Let's see. My grandfather was one of the construction day employees of the canal, and I think he went down there in the about 1904 1906 from New York State. And, uh, and my mother was his daughter. And she grew up in the canal zone also, and and my mother went away to college in the United States University of Alabama.

00:00:50.640 - 00:01:11.720

And then when I went back to Panama after that and worked in the embassy there and met my dad in Panama, and, uh and so then I grew up there also, so they worked for the Panama Canal Company. Both of my parents worked for the Panama Canal Company, and I grew up there, and I sort of follow along in their footsteps, working for the company.

00:01:12.450 - 00:01:35.700

Did they pass down any stories about their early experiences in Panama? Yeah. My mother was both of them. Actually, my mother was a little more vocal on that. She had quite a bit of experience there, and the details would come out here and there. And when she got there, evidently there were.

00:01:35.710 - 00:01:58.800

There were roads, but it was all mud. It was dirt roads. And I always thought that it was rather interesting the way, uh, that her trip with her mother happened, how they got from New York State down to Panama on I think the order of events was that the men were hired and recruited and hired in the United States.

00:01:58.800 - 00:02:17.670

For instance, my grandfather in New York State was what you'd call a jack of all trades Master of none. He was a plumber. He was a welder. This and that. So they hired these sorts of men craftsman to come down and work. And they took the men down on ships from New York.

00:02:18.040 - 00:02:51.110

And after they got the men settled, the families were brought down. So I always imagined Ah, woman in her two small Children. I think my mother was two years old. My her brother was older a little bit so anyway, a woman who'd never been outside the United States, goes down in New York City from Saratoga, New York, and gets on a ship with two small Children to sail over the ocean to go somewhere strange to me, that was that za pretty unique.

00:02:52.040 - 00:03:08.510

And of course, the ships weren't like cruise liners are today. There's no air conditioning, a lot of people on board, and then they arrive in this place that's got a lot of mosquitoes and it rains a lot. It's hotter than blue blazes and they gotta make a home there and they can't just turn around taken airplane out of there.

00:03:08.520 - 00:03:35.170

So I always thought that was rather unique. Okay, that's really that's really interesting. So they when you were when you were growing up, I'm assuming you went to school in Panama, right in the canal zone in the canal zone. We referred to the canal zone, uh, that way, because that was actually the official title of the area where we lived.

00:03:35.740 - 00:03:56.850

Canal Zone, uh, was was leased from Panama and a special agreement when they decided to build a canal. So the canal zone that area was where we lived. Way lived within that area and we went back and forth freely into Panama on there were no fences, no borders, really?

00:03:57.240 - 00:04:14.160

But way refer to the canal zone as that. Because where that's where we spent most of our time. And what did you say first? There a minute ago, you asked me. Oh, I was gonna ask you, I think. Oh, yeah. I went to school. Yeah. What school was like, Yeah.

00:04:14.170 - 00:04:33.870

Which school you went? I lived in a very small town in the canal zone, Um called Gamba. And it was at the junction of a main river that supplies water to the canal, which is this shag rece River It The town was at the junction of the river and the canal itself.

00:04:34.440 - 00:04:56.780

And the town was what you would call it a company town or maybe even a division town. Because the dredging division of the Canal Company was headquartered there. They had dredges. They had cranes, they had tugboats. So they did a lot of dredging. And all these people were involved in that particular part of the canal operation.

00:04:56.790 - 00:05:21.750

Who lived in this town. We had our a few policemen stationed aerial fire station, you know, on the other services of the canal company provided. So this small town was actually physically located, almost that the center of the Isthmus of Panama in the middle. And we went We went to school in elementary school there in Gambo up to the sixth grade.

00:05:22.140 - 00:05:36.060

And then after that, we had to take a bus into what we call town, which was Balboa on the Pacific side of the business. It was just closer there than it was to the Atlantic side of the Israel. So, yeah, I went to elementary school there.

00:05:36.540 - 00:05:54.750

I went thio my first two years of high school in Balboa, Ato Balboa High School And then because I already had a goal or a career in mind, uh, my parents let it be known that I wasn't making the grade. I was not a good student.

00:05:54.750 - 00:06:10.750

I wasn't making good enough grades to be ableto to pursue my goal. So they asked me if I wanted to go away to school in the States to a boy's military school, and I did. And it was probably, uh, one of most difficult things I did, but it was the best for me.

00:06:10.940 - 00:06:28.330

E went away to school. Uh, and I went on to train for my occupation, and then I came back to Panama to work for the company. That's how it went. Uh, and so did you when you went to school, Which school did you go to in the States?

00:06:28.340 - 00:06:53.170

I finished my last two years of high school at a a boy's military school called Admiral Farragut Academy in ST Petersburg, Florida. Okay. And my parents researched all that before they even broached the subject of leaving home. And, uh so I went two years there, and then I went on to a maritime academy for my maritime training.

00:06:55.140 - 00:07:15.170

Had you had you want growing up? Was that the kind of career that you wanted a maritime career? Yes. Uh, my dad was a dredger. He worked on the dredges that were out in the waterway, and my mother worked in the office of the dredging division and I went out on the dredge of my dad.

00:07:15.170 - 00:07:38.090

I started doing that when I was probably eight years old. So hanging around the dredge and meeting all those men that worked there and seeing the operation on being on the water became a big attraction to me. And, um, there were tugboats that would come to the dredge to bring the scouts or barges to the dredge.

00:07:38.530 - 00:07:55.740

And finally, these tugboat captains took pity on me and invited me up to their tugs. They saw that my interest was there and they invited me up on the tug. And then next thing you know, I'm riding the tugs up and down the waterway with the barges, and that's what I wanted to be.

00:07:55.740 - 00:08:20.070

I want to be a tugboat captain, and my dad says no, no, he says, uh, there's pilots on this on these ships, that air going by here. You wanna be a pilot? So that became my new goal. But growing up on the water was what, and going to work with my dad was what got me interested and started in the career.

00:08:20.540 - 00:08:41.390

That was a huge help. At least I had a goal. Yeah, if you're not a good student, sometimes you don't have a goal. You know, you got to get a goal. Yeah, if I could have had that exactly. Well, and what was maritime academy like? You already had some background or Yeah, Luckily, uh, I fit in very well because I grew up on the water.

00:08:41.390 - 00:09:05.210

I was already much of a seaman. I was I knew about seamanship. I knew about boats and and other marine operations and things. And, uh, when I went to the maritime Academy, I started in New York State at the New York State Maritime Academy for Skylar, New York, and s already had all that experience as a teenager.

00:09:05.220 - 00:09:25.170

Bond it. It made it a lot easier for me and the fact that I went to that boy's military school, which was really an ordeal for me. The fact that I had been there now for two years I was used to the regimented military system that the maritime academy had.

00:09:25.940 - 00:09:51.480

It was It was You wore uniforms. You you lived under a regimented system, much like the military. So I was I was I was ready for that. It worked out for me, right? And what were the when you Oh, did I ask you which maritime school that you went to?

00:09:51.490 - 00:10:09.170

I told you. But I'll add a little to that. Okay, I I went from ST Petersburg, Florida. That boy's military high school, up to Fort Skylar in New York. Actually, it's right next to New York City. It's part of New York City. It's in the Bronx.

00:10:09.540 - 00:10:37.070

It's called the New York State Maritime Academy. I went there, started there, and as I said earlier, I was not a student, not a good student. And I realized there that, uh, I excelled in nautical subjects, but I did not do well in subjects non nautical.

00:10:37.540 - 00:10:56.420

My interest was out there. I didn't care about economics. I was interested in English because I like to speak well into right well, and But I was not interested in, um hmm courses that I didn't think or would not need or new I would not need.

00:10:56.420 - 00:11:23.570

In the maritime industry. That goal to me was so clear that I knew what I needed to have to succeed. And I came up against calculus at the Maritime Academy, and I knew that I didn't need calculus to be a ship's officer or a pilot. Uh, even if I hadn't known that I couldn't have passed calculus to save my life.

00:11:24.040 - 00:11:48.890

It was Greek to me, and I failed Calculus course took it again, failed it again, and I knew it was hopeless. Yeah. So after I felt it the second time, they said, You have got to take calculus during the summer this summer coming up and you gotta pass it or else Or else meaning you're out because they had a set curriculum.

00:11:48.920 - 00:12:27.130

So I called the Texas Maritime Academy in Galveston, Texas. They were brand new, whereas sports Skylar, uh, came into existence in the 18 hundreds, and I asked the Texas Maritime Academy if they required calculus and they didn't, and I transferred down there. Okay, I hitchhiked from New York City to Galveston, Texas, wearing my military uniforms that we had from that We were that we used it for Skylar because I didn't want to ask my parents for any money.

00:12:27.140 - 00:12:46.560

I was ashamed of the fact that I flunked out, but they didn't require calculus, and they needed guys who could help that school get started. They needed people who were truly interested in the maritime industry and had some experience, which I did well worked out. Well, for me.

00:12:46.570 - 00:13:17.550

Uh, what year did you finished? The academy. I finished down there in the same amount of time or at the same time that I would have finished in New York in 1967. Okay. Yeah. And at that time, thieve Vietnam war was raging. And the merchant marine itself did not have enough officers because so many ships were in use carrying military cargo to South Vietnam.

00:13:18.630 - 00:13:38.970

So, uh, I went right from the Maritime Academy in Texas aboard a freighter going to Vietnam. No problem. I mean, that's what I wanted to do. What was your position to start? I started out as a third mate. That's That's the third officer on the ship.

00:13:39.620 - 00:14:04.670

Every ship has a captain. They have a first mate second mate in a third mate. And did you was at a regular, um, service back and forth between the states and South Vietnam? Almost. It was almost regular meaning. The company I worked for was a very big, well established company from New Orleans that was likes Brothers, Steamship Company.

00:14:05.440 - 00:14:27.450

They had 70 some ships, and that's a lot of ships for a shipping company. And at the time, they really needed people. But they still had trade routes all around the world. Other than South Vietnam. The South Vietnam cargo was carried under military contracts, but they had other commercial runs throughout the world.

00:14:27.460 - 00:15:08.800

And so I bounced around on different ships wherever they assigned me and and ran to those different areas the Mediterranean, northern Europe, the Caribbean Ah, lot to the Far East meaning trans Pacific theme. The whole part of the goal. At that point, Waas I had to move up through the ranks to second mate, chief, mate and Captain because Panama required that you have a master's license, a captain's license before they would hire you as a pilot.

00:15:08.810 - 00:15:32.800

And I knew that I knew what the requirements. So that's what I'm working for, what I was working for then and they didn't force you to take vacation. And I like living on the ships. So for about five years, I I sailed a zone officer all over the place making pretty good money and having a lot of fun and satisfying the requirements for the goal.

00:15:32.810 - 00:15:54.460

How do you move up the ranks as an officer? Uh, the, uh the company has, of course, usually would maintain a senior already list of all of its officer employees. And when they needed a second mate, they might have a third mate somewhere that they wanted to promote.

00:15:55.040 - 00:16:24.750

But to become a second mate, you had to have at least one year of C time or service as a third mate. So after a year is third, mate, You take another test with the Coast guard their examination and you get a second mate's license and that license allows you to sail is a second mate, and you just you go year by year, moving up if the company has jobs for you, Okay, but with the Vietnam War, there are plenty of jobs.

00:16:25.060 - 00:16:48.610

So anyone who is energetic, uh, and ambitious could move up during the Vietnam War, and the same thing is happening now. There's a lot of ships today involved in carrying cargo over to the Middle East, and a lot of young guys who are young, strong and ambitious are doing very well because they're in that effort.

00:16:48.620 - 00:17:05.270

Sailing is as officers on chips, so that's how it That's how I took place and I just I sailed and advanced my license until I got a master's license, and then I applied to the Panama Canal Company and I got hired. What year was that? that was 1972.

00:17:05.810 - 00:17:29.950

Okay, Did you during those years is when you started at the academy in 1970 1972. When you started working the Panama Canal Zone. Um, you know, and then earlier, I talked to Captain Wilder about his experiences. But earlier, what were some of the major technological changes that were occurring in maritime that had an impact on you?

00:17:29.960 - 00:17:49.690

Or that you saw technological? Uh, let's see, I had sailed as an officer on older ships. That's where they put most of their new people. If you were young and just starting out, they weren't gonna put you on a nice fancy ship. They wanted toe. See how you were a zone officer.

00:17:49.690 - 00:18:18.770

And they put you on an old piece of junk, which was fine with me because old pieces of junk or old rusty freighters stayed in port longer. They were slower to transit the different areas. They took 28 days to go from Balboa, Panama, uh, to Yokohama, Japan, or Inchon, Korea, across the Pacific, 28 days, poking along at 14 knots with no air conditioning.

00:18:19.440 - 00:18:46.420

But when you're young, you don't care about too much about air conditioning. If you're having a good time and you're enjoying going to see it doesn't really matter. So, uh, the old ships were just fine with me. I didn't need a new ship. Actually, my very first trip to see as the third mate on the William likes it was a C two freighter.

00:18:46.420 - 00:19:13.420

That's what they call it The C two. I had a very, very nice captain, and the captain was 40 some years old. That first mate was 60 some years old. The second mate was 60 some years old. Me, the third mate was I was 22 years old, the South China Sea.

00:19:13.420 - 00:19:36.820

On a beautiful afternoon, one of our crew members jumped over the side to commit suicide. So the captain wanted to launch a lifeboat to try to go and get this guy rescue him And the first mate second mate Being that old, we're not going to get in the lifeboat.

00:19:36.890 - 00:19:56.450

I mean, it was unreasonable to ask them to get in the lifeboat and take it down and try to rescue the man. The captain's certainly not gonna leave the ship, so that left me. So I get in this life boat, and this was in August of 1967.

00:19:57.540 - 00:20:22.060

And during that time of year, the Southwest monsoons blow That's a wind and they blow continuously on the wind kicks up big swells and big C. So we launched this lifeboat, and as soon as we hit the water with a lifeboat, we were in rough, rough seas, big seas, probably.

00:20:22.440 - 00:20:43.790

0 12 ft swell, maybe a 15 ft swell and a swell is a long, big wave that's not usually breaking way had about six or 8 ft seas that we're breaking. So it's pretty rough. And these lifeboats were old, they were very strong. And I had about, Let's see, I guess, in a lifeboat.

00:20:43.790 - 00:21:06.090

Back then there would be maybe eight or nine men, okay, and we when we got into the water when the lifeboat was launched, we could see right away. This is extremely dangerous. Way also realized that we're not gonna find this man. His name was Floyd W.

00:21:06.090 - 00:21:27.980

Heist. I've never forgot that. And your perspective from high up on a ship looking down on the ocean is much different from your perspective when you're down right on the water in a small boat. The lifeboats, Maybe 30 ft long. It's got an engine. It's got a lot of yours if you need to row it.

00:21:28.940 - 00:21:50.510

So we weren't gonna find Floyd W heist. It was apparent right away we were in a very bad situation and yeah, we got So we decided to conduct a a search pattern for him with this life book. As we started out to do so, we left the ship, moved away.

00:21:50.760 - 00:22:08.450

And remember, we're out in the middle of the South China Sea. There's nothing around. And the engine of the lifeboat quits. He got real quiet out There actually was beautiful. The waves were breaking the beautiful day. The ocean was blue and the ships two miles away and the engine quits.

00:22:08.450 - 00:22:31.270

And as it turned out, the ship came back to get us and got us came right alongside. And even in that high seas and heavy swell, we were able to reattach the lifeboat to the ship, which which took a lot of luck and a good amount of skill.

00:22:32.240 - 00:22:51.050

We were extremely lucky, and the ship picked us up again. In other words, hoisted that lifeboat right up the side rolling and pitching all the time. We got back aboard ship. The first thing the captain said to me was when I saw you hit the water with that boat, I knew I should have never sent you.

00:22:51.900 - 00:23:15.860

We lucked out. We didn't find Floyd W Heist Way. Got the boat back with all the people. That was my riel introduction to Truc going line. It was a good experience for me on it was very, very lucky that I was already a boatman. A lot of young guys go to see right out of the maritime academy, and they don't really have the experience to handle a situation like that.

00:23:15.870 - 00:23:39.900

I already knew how to handle that boat. Worked out for me again. Okay, Uh, so after that, you know, did you have any other memorable experiences before you came to Panama on the I, uh, Let's see, I went up through the ranks to second mate, and I stayed on a particular old ship for about a year.

00:23:39.910 - 00:23:57.790

The till he likes. And here again, no air conditioning. And I had a It was a big deal when you had a corner room in two portholes, so I was living very well. We ran to the Mediterranean. We ran to North Europe. And, of course, we ran to the Far East through the Panama Canal.

00:23:58.180 - 00:24:19.200

And I truly enjoyed going to see going to all these different places, these older shifts. Like I said before, they stayed in port longer because they didn't have the modern cargo gear that allowed them to load or discharge quickly. And so life was good when I was 22 24 years old, traveling the world.

00:24:19.200 - 00:24:45.640

You know, uh, and then I got hired in Panama on I went back there in 72 70 to 1972? Yeah. And did you start right away as a pilot? Or was there Did you have to work up? No, they What they did at the time was they would hire you and they would go into a training program where you rode with other pilots through the canal and you observe them.

00:24:45.650 - 00:25:10.360

You also visited other parts of the company the locks, the tugboats that work there, and you got to know the operation through observation. And that took Oh, maybe six months or so. And the more you rode with other pilots on ships going through the canal, the more you learned more comfortable you got and the more comfortable these other pilots got with you on DSO.

00:25:10.370 - 00:25:42.550

Pretty soon the other pilots start letting you handle the ship under their supervision, so it's a slow process, but it's still quite rewarding. Uh, eso it took it. Took a while to get started on my own, I think six months or so and then when you start out on small ships piloting them through the canal and you work your way up over the years, uh, there's a 10 year period for your advancement from the very beginning to the largest ship that goes through there.

00:25:42.840 - 00:26:07.190

And you need all those 10 years to gain experience and confidence. So I enjoyed my career. Captain Cooper. What were some of the challenges? Let's say when you're first starting, Um, on the smaller ships, can you describe the process of piloting a ship through locks? Yeah, let's see.

00:26:07.190 - 00:26:24.970

Now. You usually pick the ship up at one of the ends of the canal in the ocean, let's say, or at sea or at one of the Anchorages at either end of the canal, the Pacific End or the Atlantic End, which is really the Caribbean end of the canal.

00:26:25.840 - 00:26:49.210

And you go aboard and you introduce yourself and you make sure everything's ready and you get the ship underway. In other words, you get it moving and you are giving orders to the helmsman who is steering the ship and you're giving orders to the officer that's handling the engine room.

00:26:49.210 - 00:27:03.670

Telegraph the engine room telegraph transmits orders to the engine room on what you want done with the engines. Do you wanna go slow ahead, or or half ahead or full ahead? How much power do you want and what direction do you want it? Do you want to go astern?

00:27:03.680 - 00:27:32.080

It's like a car stepping on the accelerator, except you're doing it verbally and you're giving orders and you're using your judgment, your eye to maneuver the ship just like you, when you're driving your car, your steering the car and you're using your eyes and using your senses and your judgment to control the car on the ship were standing up, usually looking out looking ahead through the bridge windows and you're using your senses.

00:27:32.080 - 00:27:59.760

Like I said, and telling them where to put the rudder to steer the ship and what to do with the engines and you go in the locks, you slow down. You maneuver the ship into the locks and and go from there. Mhm. I didn't I didn't have much trouble because here again, I was very comfortable in the canal had grown up there, so I was totally at home in the area.

00:28:00.640 - 00:28:26.410

If you try to do that in a strange area that you were not familiar with with, you would have to work a lot harder to learn the area and feel comfortable. A lot of young men go to different ports in the world and become pilots. They have to work very hard to learn, um, different peculiarities of the waterway and all the other things that they need to pick up to be ableto safely pilot.

00:28:26.430 - 00:28:48.850

Alright. Earlier, Captain Wilder had mentioned that your knowledge is a pilot was very. I think the term of uses local, that's correct. Knowledge or local? Yeah, that's each part is distinct. That's correct. Each port each waterway is quite distinct, and that's why they employ pilots in all these different ports and waterways around the world because the pilot has local knowledge.

00:28:49.240 - 00:29:17.960

That's the term he knows about that area. That's his specialty. When you're a ship's officer and you're traveling the world, you're trained to maneuver that ship far out at sea. And when you get close to shore, are coming into a port. As you slow down and come near the ports entrance or the rivers entrance, you pick up a pilot, and he then guides the ship in with your help.

00:29:18.440 - 00:29:36.080

Were there to take the orders and the pilot he guides you in. But when you're traveling the world going to all these places as a ship's officer, you can't be expected to know all these areas well enough to be able to safely go in and out of Porter up down these rivers or through the canal.

00:29:37.940 - 00:29:57.350

So mhm on. And then now one of the one of the things that Captain Wilder mentioned was was with locomotives and having to give orders to locomotives. Aziz, the Can you describe that process? I wanna make sure I have that down Really well. Did he mention the word meal?

00:29:57.840 - 00:30:21.000

I don't think he was that use the term locomotive, huh? Yeah. Yeah, Well, uh, the locks, the locks were built out of concrete, and they have chambers, and the ship goes into the chamber. Now, uh, there may be a lot of room on either side of the ship in the chamber, depending on the size of the ship, or there might not be a lot of room.

00:30:21.000 - 00:30:58.460

There might be only 2 ft on each side. And to keep the ship from touching the concrete walls of the chamber. Onda having damage to the ship or or the logs. They have electric locomotives that run down on tracks on either side of the chamber. Now, from these locomotives that air on the tracks on either side our wires that go to the ship cables and the cables attached to either side of the ship at either end of the ship.

00:30:59.340 - 00:31:31.320

And then the men that air driving these locomotives are operating them. Keep the ship in the center by pulling on one cable and slacking on another. So they're they're maintaining that ship's position in the center of the chamber to keep it from touching the wall and what these men do with the winches on these locomotives and how they do that is from orders given to them by radio by the pilot from the pilot.

00:31:31.330 - 00:31:49.020

The pilot is telling the operators of the locomotives what to do because the pilot has the vantage point of being up high and seeing the whole picture around the ship. Whereas these locomotive operators are just down on the locomotive and they can't really judge well enough from that their position.

00:31:49.030 - 00:32:08.450

So, uh, small ships would have four locomotives, a locomotive on each side of the bow or the front of the ship and a locomotive on each side of the stern or the rear of the ship. And so you're you're keeping it in the center by giving orders to the different locomotives.

00:32:08.460 - 00:32:30.680

And how do you give the orders? Let's let's say that you're piloting a ship and you see it's drifting a bit to the right. I mean, what is your okay? Each locomotive is numbered and also described by his position relative to the ship. The forward locomotives, our number one.

00:32:31.140 - 00:32:58.770

Each one is number one locomotive, but there's one on the center wall side, and there's one on the side wall side, so it would be one center and one side designated that way, the second pair of locomotives back on the stern of the ship or number twos So you would designate if you wanted the number one center to pull and you would say one center coil in.

00:32:59.420 - 00:33:17.960

But you have to slack off on the other one on the opposite side so he can pull over. So you'd say one center coil, one side slack. You're just giving quick orders like that over a radio, and they respond. In the early days before radios came along, they did it.

00:33:17.970 - 00:33:53.470

The pilots gave orders through hand signals, different signals, and at night they used flashlights or wands. Colored wants to give the orders with their hands. So anyway, actually, when you asked the question earlier about keeping or any difficulties I had in the early years, yeah, uh, when you're giving orders like that, you have to maintain in your mind a record of exactly what orders you have given.

00:33:53.940 - 00:34:11.520

And you have to remember what each one of those locomotives is doing, and that takes some mental dexterity to juggle all that information in your mind. So if I'm coiling on one center and slacking on one side. I've got to remember that. I don't want him to coil it all the way over to the concrete.

00:34:11.530 - 00:34:28.360

So I have to stop coiling one center, one side hole, and then you're doing the same with the steering local. So there's quite a bit of mental effort in juggling these orders of things. Then that took me a while. Yeah, uh, but with practice and time, it comes to you.

00:34:28.370 - 00:34:47.030

What about the speed? I mean, is that the ship I'm assuming is going pretty slowly. Yeah. Does it ever go deserve a situation with the ship, gets in front of the locomotives and pulls them? Or Captain Wilder tell you to ask me that? No, he didn't, but he mentioned something about it and he in passing.

00:34:47.030 - 00:35:17.980

And he I wanna make sure I have this down. Yeah, it's well, yes. The ship can overrun the locomotives, locomotives? The present ones anyway, run along the track at a speed maximum speed of three knots. So they're effective up to that speed. After that, the ship starts to overtake them and pass them, and then they the locomotive will drop out of position and be less effective on the ship.

00:35:20.140 - 00:35:54.270

Now, Captain Wilder is one of my favorite pilots and he was one of a number of fast pilots in the canal. And I guess I admired that in my experience before I got there allowed me to turn into a fast pilot. So it was one of the things that we had to guard against overrunning the locomotives, getting up too much speed.

00:35:55.540 - 00:36:15.250

I can say it now, but, uh, I wouldn't have said it years ago. That sort of added to the challenge in the excitement of the transition. Now, that should not have entered into what we were doing. We were charged with the safety of that ship and we had no business, uh, cowboying through the canal.

00:36:16.130 - 00:36:38.750

On the other hand, Canal company wanted pilots to move ships and we had a schedule way had a lot of ships to put through every day, maybe 40. Some ships And the canal company did not want pilots to lose time. And if we gain time, okay, if we could do it safely, and that's that took place.

00:36:39.410 - 00:37:05.540

There were other pilots who were more cautious, more sensible, who took their time and made sure that it was gonna be done safely. I would have said this 10 years ago. Okay, But that's actually what was happening. And way had still had a very good safety record because, yeah, you could be a fast pilot if you're careful and skilful.

00:37:06.330 - 00:37:40.380

And one of the things that a pilot definitely has to know is how to get out of trouble. Don't And I'm an instructor now at a maritime institute, and I teach other pilots and ships officers how to maneuver ships. And coincidentally, the reason I can teach them well is because I have a lot of experience on the canal and working faster than normal.

00:37:41.210 - 00:38:03.050

And the many jams and situations that I got into, which I myself created gave me a tremendous amount of experience in getting out of trouble. That's actually what's going on. Now I'm passing on my experience. Two young men and women who are learning Shipperley and I can tell them it's not worth it.

00:38:03.720 - 00:38:34.460

It's not worth it to go too fast. What were some of the jams and you got into? Captain Wilder described one of his city really e gotta go find him here. Now tell him we'll tell you what I say. Uh, generally it Z. Let's see. Generally, the speed is more of a problem as you're approaching the locks and you have to know how to get that speed off the ship.

00:38:35.020 - 00:39:11.740

Get this ship slowed down and and under better control. If you lose control entirely, you've got to know how to get it back. And it's got to be done quickly. Okay, Let's see. I'm trying to think now. Yeah, okay. Actually, one of the examples I use with my classes is that I was coming up to the gateau, unlocks north bound through the canal one morning, about six o'clock in the morning.

00:39:13.080 - 00:39:30.650

And I have been up most of the night and I've gone to work, maybe about 11 o'clock at night without much prior sleep. And at six o'clock in the morning, I'm starting to get light and I'm gonna put that ship to anchor. I'm not gonna actually go to the locks and go in the locks.

00:39:30.660 - 00:39:46.840

I'm gonna go to anchor in a big, wide open space in the gateau in Lake. No other ships were in the Anchorage. It was wide open for me had lots and lots of room to go to anchor. I slowed the ship down properly, as I should have.

00:39:47.710 - 00:40:06.230

Now she's going slower and we're two miles from the Anchorage. And I'm so sleepy that I want to get that ship anchored. I wanna get where I want to go get anchored because the ship has a pilot cabin and I could go to bed because I'm gonna have to wait for four hours for the locks.

00:40:06.240 - 00:40:30.520

Do you follow me? So I increase feed again because I'm so sleepy and so tired. I want to get there. I want to go to bed. That is a classic example of how fatigue can enter into a person's decision making process, fatigue and my desire to go to sleep.

00:40:31.010 - 00:40:50.530

And the thought of that bunk waiting for me back there. The fact there were no other ships in the Anchorage contributed to my bad decision of increasing speed again while I increase the speed. Then I realized I'm going too fast. I slowed down earlier for a purpose, but now I increase the speed.

00:40:50.530 - 00:41:20.390

I'm going way too fast. I cannot get the ship stopped in time, she sails up and hits the locks hard. Well, they didn't. The maritime industry was not really aware or interested in fatigue at that time. This is when 1985. Maybe they didn't factor in fatigue to accidents at that time.

00:41:20.400 - 00:41:40.040

Now they dio there are rules for amount of sleep that that people operating machinery or making decisions like I have to have a rest period. So nothing was said about fatigue, and I didn't even know about fatigue at the time. I knew why I did that.

00:41:40.510 - 00:42:02.380

And so anyway, we had That was about $500,000 worth of damage to the ship. And, you know, they had to fix it. My mistake. Yeah. Uh huh. But it's good experience. I am able to pass that on. Don't do it. You can Onley learn something when you make a mistake.

00:42:02.390 - 00:42:21.430

That's right. Yeah, but you you basically, because I don't really understand anything at all about maritime. The ship had reached a certain speed where it didn't even matter. I mean, if you had said, you know, full reverse engines, whatever, it just didn't matter. It was just going to the momentum.

00:42:21.430 - 00:42:47.420

That's correct carried into the That's correct. That's correct. The ship was the high Odai number 78. It was loaded, loaded with steel products. And that heavy load in that ship gave it tremendous momentum and inertia. Tremendous. And yes, I could start the engines going astern, in other words, in reverse, like you say.

00:42:48.000 - 00:43:13.280

But the power of the ship wasn't enough to take away the excessive headway that I built up and there was nothing else that I could do. Um, at the time. So that was my situation, Captain Cooper. What were some of the other things that made the canal system?

00:43:13.290 - 00:43:40.330

Ah, unique, uh, situation for pilots. Um, one of the theme most unique theme. Most unique factor in piloting in Panama was the fact that the Panama Canal Company owned the place to put it that way. They owned the water. Excuse me? They owned the land on each side of the waterway.

00:43:40.820 - 00:44:15.210

They owned the waterway and all the equipment, and it was their operation solely on Lee their operation. There was no outside, uh, oversight from, let's say, the Coast Guard or Panama or anyone else. So they ran the show Now, in today's world. When pilots have accidents, there's an awful lot of oversight in place.

00:44:16.290 - 00:44:40.910

The, uh, the pilots is watched over by the Coast Guard in US Sports or the Japanese Coast Guard in Japanese sports they watched over by environmental groups. They're watched over by bird lovers because we don't want to spill oil kills birds. So there is a tremendous amount of a threat to the pilot.

00:44:41.390 - 00:45:08.420

And with that threat goes a lot of second guessing by these groups. The pilots using his skill and judgment to the best of his ability Thio control the ship and keep it safe. But accidents happen, and in many cases there are numerous factors that lead up to an accident.

00:45:09.190 - 00:45:26.600

And all of these factors have to be looked at before you could make a judgment about the accident. The media can't look at those factors. They don't know what they are. Neither can the bird lovers. And to tell you the truth, neither can the U. S Coast guard because they don't have experience in ship handling.

00:45:26.990 - 00:45:55.220

You know, that's a fact. There's been an accident, whether it be a rail accident or an airline accident or a Marine accident and probably a car accident, too. There's something called error chain. There's a chain. There's usually a chain of errors that occurs starting before the time of the actual incident or accident.

00:45:55.860 - 00:46:19.510

And so I've learned that now, uh, after many years and after my training to be an instructor, I've learned that, and I passed that on. And you have to watch for the error chain when you're working. If you recognize that there's an error chain building, you have to break the error chain to prevent the accident.

00:46:19.880 - 00:46:41.780

Uh huh. But this knowledge and this theory was not present back in the early years, we didn't know anything about that. Did I get off on a tangent? No, no, not at all. I mean, because it really it gets to the challenge that you must have had because you had a company.

00:46:41.790 - 00:47:11.700

You have a responsible to get so many ships through. Uh, there's a schedule. At the same time, fatigue and different things can enter in. That's right. And that's what was taking place. Uh uh. They had to move ships to prevent backlogs from developing. They had to move ships in a timely manner to get them through the canal because the shipper or the ship owner is really a customer of the canal.

00:47:12.120 - 00:47:30.870

We had to provide this service to this to these customers. And you can't have 10,000 stems of bananas sitting out in the Anchorage waiting for days and days because traffic is slope, you can't do it. So, yes, the company wanted to move ships if you didn't move ships.

00:47:30.870 - 00:47:57.290

Well, well, they might overlook it, for the most part, but they want to know why. Why were you so late at the locks? Well, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, huh? Uh, and that's just that was the climate. What were some of the factors? And speaking of the climate, I mean, I'm assuming that that climate factor in this But what were some of the factors that could possibly slow down the movement of shows?

00:47:57.290 - 00:48:23.040

Poor visibility by rain or fog. We would have heavy rainstorms, and we would have fog during the night in certain areas and at different times of the year. So you had to guard against that and a rainstorm. A lot of times you could see it coming, but on the fog we had a pretty good idea when it was going to come in, so we were able to avoid most of that.

00:48:23.050 - 00:48:42.010

That sort of problem. Were there any times of the year that we're peak shipping seasons more busier than others is, um or I don't They may have statistics on that. I don't know. It seems steady to me. I'd look out in that Anchorage where the ships were waiting.

00:48:42.010 - 00:48:58.330

The ships come in from sea and they anchor in a certain area, and it's called the Anchorage. That's where they wait. E would look out of that Anchorage, and there will always be ships there. And as I got older is a pilot. You know, we were working very hard, and I was getting a little tired out.

00:48:58.340 - 00:49:19.010

And I remember saying one day, you know, some of these ships never stopped coming. They're always there. Uh, it never ends right on. That's what's happening today to they're still there. Did you want to talk a little bit about life outside of outside of work? A social life?

00:49:19.010 - 00:49:43.390

I mean, maybe the differences between you know, your experience growing up versus your Children. Was there any changes occurring? Yeah, I guess they were up until the nineties, there weren't. There was not a lot of major change that you noticed very much after the treaty, uh, started taking effect.

00:49:44.070 - 00:50:09.180

We did start to notice the changes and the changes were not good. And not in my opinion. Uh, the quality of life went downhill. The the quality of the work place that I was used to also went downhill. I was not happy. My last four or five years there were not nearly as satisfying as my early years.

00:50:09.760 - 00:50:38.890

Uh, I retired as soon as I could, And you did. You retired. I retired in 97 1990 after 25 years, and it was time for me to go. I was experiencing a classic burnout where I was dissatisfied with the changes in the workplace, on the climate, there, the living conditions and no amount of time or money was going to correct that.

00:50:38.980 - 00:50:58.810

That's classic burnout. To me, it is. And it was good that I moved on at age 52 because I went back into the marine industry and I didn't other jobs were very interesting and provided me with a whole different set of challenges. I was quite happy after I retired.

00:50:58.820 - 00:51:21.350

I was very lucky that I waas a lot of people retiring. They're not happy because they miss the occupation. Uh, Captain Cooper, were you a part of the pilots association? Yes. Yeah, most of us were. Yeah. Okay. And what did the pilots association? I mean, what were some of its functions?

00:51:21.350 - 00:51:51.850

I mean, what did it do it? Number one had organized the pilots a za group. And it's a form of unionism, which I am. I'm pro union because the marinas, the marine industry and many other industries long has a long history of I don't know if I want to go ast faras employee abuse.

00:51:52.760 - 00:52:20.030

But that's that's what it borderlines, Uh, and to protect the employees, uh, unionism, union unions or employee organizations can be very beneficial to make sure that that the company treats the workers fairly. And yes, I was part of the pilots association. It was, and the association was very good.

00:52:20.040 - 00:52:42.410

And it was what I consider to be fair in their dealings with Canal Company. And and I'm very glad that I waas ah, union member Did you have to the association of collective Bargaining with yes, and that I think at the time when it came into effect, I think that was unusual.

00:52:42.440 - 00:53:21.580

I'm not so sure that too many government employees enjoyed that privilege. Mhm. We were US government employees. We work for the U. S. Government who owned that canal and operated it. And for us to achieve collective bargaining rights was a significant step very significant. And I I was a proponent of moderation to keep from being, uh, to keep from being unreasonable with our dealings with the canal company.

00:53:23.050 - 00:53:51.170

So it worked out well, by moderation. You mean in terms of what you as an association requested or or demanded, demanded? Right. I thought we should focus on, uh, safety. Time off on money. Let's be safe. Let's be compensated for the many hours we put out there and let's have Let's have proper rest, period.

00:53:51.750 - 00:54:16.930

Which ties into that fatigue example I gave you right. Uh, so, you know, you could have all the rest possible, or you could you could be given all the time off possible. But if you don't use that time properly to rest properly, it doesn't do you any good, but it's sometimes it's hard to get to sleep at eight o'clock at night when you're gonna goto work at 11 o'clock at night.

00:54:16.940 - 00:54:48.500

You just because that is not in keeping with the bodies. Normal circadian rhythm. It just doesn't happen. So by six o'clock in the morning, your ability to think clearly eyes definitely hindered if you don't so. But many companies that don't allow collective bargaining or don't care about their employees could just dictate that you're going to work.

00:54:48.500 - 00:55:04.280

If you don't like it, get out. Mhm. I hope I didn't go off too much of a tangent there. No, it makes perfect sense because it gets back to what you were talking about earlier about safety, about all of the things that people on the outside don't think about.

00:55:04.280 - 00:55:21.330

If they hear about an accident, um, they just assume, Oh, and there's a term. It's called pilot error. And you always say, What does that mean? It's human error. It's Yeah, but there's gonna be a lot of things and you hear about in the airlines to I mean in a collective bargaining.

00:55:21.330 - 00:55:37.560

Certainly, airline pilots make that one of their main issues. You know, a certain you're only allowed to do a certain number of trips and that right you have to take Yeah. Yeah. So it's, uh, Overall, it was a very good career for me. I thoroughly enjoyed it.

00:55:37.560 - 00:56:00.860

I found it very, very satisfied. I enjoyed it completely. And this simulator that I teach on right now, I just came back yesterday from Baltimore. That simulator is so realistic that it actually satisfies about 60% of my yearning to continue ship handling. It's very realistic. And it it serves me well.

00:56:00.860 - 00:56:29.340

Also, besides the students that Yeah, if you enjoy your occupation or your work, uh, then when you retire and don't do that anymore, you'll miss it. Right? Do you? And you make it down Thio Panama. Much anymore, Captain Cooper, do you? I only go maybe every four or five years, so I haven't haven't been lately.

00:56:29.350 - 00:56:46.440

Okay? Do you? But do you usually attend the re unions? These reunions here? Yes. Yeah, yeah. When I'm not working, uh, even though I'm retired, I worked part time in different places. And if I'm off, I'll come up here. It's a nisi drive for me. Okay?

00:56:47.630 - 00:57:05.830

All right. Well, I know I've taken up a lot of your time or any other stories or experiences you'd like to relate. Or I was I thought you might ask about the most unique ship I ever took through the canal or vessel. Most unique vessel. And so I thought about it.

00:57:05.840 - 00:57:27.390

I've been thinking about for the past week. By far the most unique vessel that I ever took through the canal was one of the Navy's nuclear powered ballistic missile submarines. Uh, Captain Wilder mentioned those. No, he didn't. But, you know, the town I grew up in Bremerton, Washington.

00:57:27.400 - 00:58:04.420

Yeah, beside and tried in class. Big stuff. Yeah. Yeah. So these submarines were extremely unique and very, very special. They trained, I guess, 30 out of 180 pilots or so to take thes substitute canal. And, um, I noticed early on that after I would pilot one of those submarines through the canal, I would go home, and that experience would stay with me for two or three days.

00:58:04.920 - 00:58:24.460

It would it would just be on my mind. It would be there, and I'd be recalling little things about the transit, and it's whereas on a normal ship that you take through the canal on our after you're off the ship, you forgot about it. And you might not even remember the name of the ship.

00:58:24.470 - 00:58:56.350

A Knauer later, But a nuke sub or that's what they used to call a nuclear subs was so unique and so impressive that experience would stay with you for days. What was the difference between piloting nuclear submarine versus a ship? Well, the nuclear submarine has probably three or four, uh, factors connected with it that make it different from regular ships.

00:58:56.820 - 00:59:19.960

Number one, the design of the submarine is totally different from a regular ship a regular ship has appointed. Bow usually has a flat bottom and around its turn, and they all maneuver almost the same. The basics for maneuvering regular ships are about the same for almost every ship.

00:59:20.420 - 00:59:51.020

But because of the difference or the unique design of the submarine, that vessel does not maneuver like a ship. It doesn't maneuver like anything else in the world, and it has its own peculiarities, and you have to learn those peculiarities to be ableto thio maneuver it has that teardrop shape has the big grounded bow, right, and, uh, most of the submarine is underwater.

00:59:51.030 - 01:00:17.030

There's only a tiny portion on the surface, it's visible and they're about 560 ft long, and I think they're 47 ft wide, and they're drawing their down in the water something like 38 ft. And that design alone makes it a major challenge to maneuver. There's a couple of other things about the sub that make it difficult to maneuver.

01:00:17.610 - 01:00:50.640

The the propeller on a submarine is aft or behind the rudder, and therefore, when the propeller is turning ahead, producing thrust to move the sub through the water because the writers ahead of that propeller, there's no wash from the propeller to give you writer action. You depend on the movement of the sub through the water alone to create a water flow past the rudder.

01:00:51.510 - 01:01:09.360

Ah, and to get that water flow past the writer, you have to gain headway and thereby mo mentum in inertia. So on a regular ship, you could just touch the engine in the wash. The propeller turns the wash, it's the writer, and you could turn easily.

01:01:09.800 - 01:01:31.030

A submarine doesn't turn easily. Yeah, it's quite unique. Then the submarine also has a lot of appendages to it that you can't see. It's under there underwater, the fins and different things like that, and you can't get close to the lock walls. For that reason, you don't want toe knock off a fin or something.

01:01:31.610 - 01:01:50.890

In fact, those submarines air so special you don't wanna touch anything. Nothing. You don't even wanna go up on the fender system in the locks. Locks have wooden and rubber fenders in different locations to protect the ships, but you don't even want to touch that. And all that's working on your mind.

01:01:51.080 - 01:02:20.830

Or they're in your mind when you're maneuvering and you're anticipating you're looking ahead, planning every move to prevent getting into trouble or touching. Uh, the sub also has a very special paint or a very special coating on the hull of this entire hall to help with acoustics so that they're less noisy underwater so they're less detectable.

01:02:21.930 - 01:02:51.130

And you don't want to scratch that pain with that coating a lot to it, but s so it's an interesting day. It's a full day's work for your senses. There's two types of those nuclear subs. There's two basic types. One would be the Ohio class. All those class of submarines are named after states, and the Ohio was the first one came out many years ago.

01:02:51.700 - 01:03:20.280

Uh, in the Ohio class are what they call the boomers thes air submarines that carry 24 intercontinental ballistic missiles also with nuclear warheads. And they're in the submarine. And that also is in your mind you're thinking about It's not a danger. But you're thinking about the capability of this submarine, what this submarine conduce do and how much how much the submarine costs.

01:03:20.280 - 01:03:45.830

It costs billions of dollars to build on these things and maintain it. And so you've got this cargo of missiles actually in their silos right behind you. And you think about the capability of that thing that it can launch this nuclear armed missile from 800 ft underwater or something, and it could go up and break the surface and travel thousands of miles.

01:03:45.840 - 01:04:09.220

Teoh target and pinpoint the location. So it's astounding when you travel through the sub. When you walk through it to get to the conning tower, you pass all these different things. You walk right by these silos, you know and it comes home to you. And if the captain's, if the captain will ever give you a tour of the launch control room, is very, very impressive.

01:04:09.220 - 01:04:31.520

That really even drives it home. I had a captain give me a tour, and he described the fail safe methods that they have in place to prevent unwanted launch. And it's quite unique. John Clancy wrote the book The Hunt for Red October. Yeah, the book was very accurate.

01:04:31.980 - 01:05:02.510

The movie was all a lot of movie stuff, But the other class of submarines is the Los Angeles class that air named after cities and their specialty eyes, not the nuclear missiles. But their specialty is hunter killer, where they hunt other submarines. They have a whole other purpose, but they're about the same type of boat of a vessel and with the same more or less the same maneuvering characteristics.

01:05:02.860 - 01:05:16.420

You gotta be careful. All right. Well, Captain Cooper, thank you so much for again and agreeing to do the interview. And if there are no other stories and I'll go ahead and