NaN:NaN:NaN - 00:00:14.760

uh, well, Mr Grimsson, first of all, thank you so much for taking time out of your schedule to sit down for the interview. Um, and Mr Grimsson, I wonder if we could start If you wouldn't mind telling me a bit about your family's history with the canal and how you ended up there.

00:00:15.340 - 00:00:39.060

Yeah. Uh, My name's Thomas Richard Gillison. I actually go by my middle name. I am one of eight Children to Thomas, William and on Nancy Grimsson. Um, grew up in the Panama Canal Zone. Um, my father was born in Panama. His father, my grandfather was born in Panama.

00:00:39.070 - 00:01:01.750

And my great grandfather, um, Thomas Irvine Grimsson went to the Panama Canal Zone in the early 19 hundreds, toe work on the construction of the canal. He is a Roosevelt metal holder on. He stayed after the construction and made his career on, raised his family in the canal zone.

00:01:02.640 - 00:01:24.950

And so that's how our family ended up there. So you have along with the family is a long history. In the yeah, four generations. I'm fourth generation from from Thomas Irvine who went down there. He was in his early twenties, went down there with his wife, uh, Jesse Shaver That came down from Pennsylvania.

00:01:26.240 - 00:01:53.200

Um, and they had Let's see, they had, uh, three Children. My grandfather, Thomas Richard and his sister Janice. And another sister, Helene. And Janice and Thomas. Richard both had families in the canal zone. My grandfather, Thomas Richard, um, married my grandmother, Helen call, and they had a son.

00:01:53.200 - 00:02:18.300

My father on then. Unfortunately, my grandfather died at a young age the age of 29 I'm actually named after him on so I could go to the core is all cemetery in Panama. And I could see my name on a headstone there. Uh, so, uh, my father was born and raised Well, obviously born and raised in the Canal zone, Graduated from Bobbo High School.

00:02:18.300 - 00:02:45.560

I believe in 1953 thing. He went to college at Penn State University, where he met my mother. My mother, interestingly enough, she was born in Brooklyn, but her family moved around and I ended up in eastern Pennsylvania. And that's the same town that my great grandfather came from when he went to the canal zone on, uh, I was actually born there as well, because I have two older sisters.

00:02:45.910 - 00:03:04.190

My oldest sister was born in Eastern, Um, then my my father. After graduating from Penn State University with a degree in architecture, he did two years in the Marine Corps thing. He went back to the canal zone and started his career. And my my old sister, a year older than me, was born in Panama in the canal zone on.

00:03:04.200 - 00:03:17.870

Then, even though they were living and working in the Canal zone at the time, my mom decided to go back to Pennsylvania when I was born on. Then I have 500 your siblings who were all born in in the canal zone. Okay, so, uh, let's see what else?

00:03:17.880 - 00:03:44.450

Um, my great grandfather. Before he, um, went to Panama, he did some time on a merchant marine training ship in Pennsylvania merchant and training ship. And the story is that he met my great grandmother walking up College Hill in eastern Pennsylvania and my grandfather, um, who died at a young age.

00:03:44.460 - 00:04:06.510

He shipped out in the Merchant Marine, Um, before he became a customs officer in the Canal zone. I ended up attending the U. S. Merchant Marine Academy and I shipped out in the Merchant Marine for a good 11 years before I. Then I went back to the Panama Canal and I became a Panama Canal pilot taking the ships through the canal.

00:04:06.520 - 00:04:27.970

And I did that for three years. And then I end ended up coming back to Florida, and now I'm a harbor pilot of Port Canaveral. Okay, so I'm I'm married to another zone, Ian. She's also a Roosevelt Metal descendant. Her her. I think she has two great grand parents that both came to Panama for the canal construction.

00:04:28.440 - 00:04:46.580

And we have four Children, um, three daughters and one son. My three daughters were born in Cocoa Beach, and my one son was born in Panama on He's So It's a line of Thomas grimaces and we changed the middle name each generation and even though I'm the odd one out since I was born in Pennsylvania.

00:04:46.580 - 00:05:04.670

But my grandfather, my father and my son were all born in Panama, well, so with that so many generations in in the in Panama and in the Canal Zone, I mean, did you grow up hearing a lot of stories about the Canal zone and about the Yeah, Yeah.

00:05:04.670 - 00:05:26.360

I mean, when you grow up, you know, it's a great place to grow up. It was very much the type of atmosphere where you know, uh, you know, everybody knew everybody, and you didn't lock. You do it. Well, you lock your doors at night to a degree, but But, you know, the kids could run around the neighborhood, and it's just a really, really fun place to grow up on Bond.

00:05:27.040 - 00:05:39.500

Yeah, way were from a young age, I would say we were very much aware of being in a unique place with a very unique history. And, you know, the Panama can I mean, you could practically look out your window and see the ship's going by on DSO.

00:05:39.500 - 00:05:59.260

It was a constant reminder. So yeah, my my dad, you know, let us know about the history about my grand, my great grandfather coming down for the construction, and and, yes, it was. Remember any stories from the construction that you're a that were, um Well, my great grandfather was a railroad man.

00:05:59.260 - 00:06:14.460

He was a conductor on the dirt trains hauling the dirt out of the Gaillard cut. Basically are all along the route, I guess. And then? So when the construction ended, he stayed on as a conductor on the train, on the trains. And that's how he made his career.

00:06:14.740 - 00:06:34.300

They my grand My grandfather and grandmother retired to Panama and they brought a beautiful, uh, beach house up in Gorgo. No, which is a little beach town. It was actually a town that was relocated when they flooded the gateau in lake and it's called the town.

00:06:34.310 - 00:06:52.220

They relocated this town up thio the coast, and it's actually called New Gordana. And so they were well known. The beach house was well known, and my dad has memories. A za kid going up to the beach house on. And there was one incident I think I have.

00:06:52.220 - 00:07:16.870

Some other relatives are gonna be giving him oral history, too. And they probably got this story better than ideo. But I guess it was around World War Two era time. And there was a training a us, uh, airfield nearby this town. And they were sitting out on the porch one day and they saw this plane come overhead and it crashed into the water on the pilot parachuted out, came wading ashore right there.

00:07:16.880 - 00:07:34.720

A military vehicle came and picked him up, took him back, but unfortunately, the house didn't stay in the family. But growing up, we used to go to the beach quite a bit. And it was It was a big part of growing up. Down there is being, you know, water sports, basically surfing and going to the beach.

00:07:34.720 - 00:07:52.620

And, you know, where did he go? Toe High school. I graduated from Balboa High School in 1980. My a Z. I said I'm one of eight and we actually went to the Catholic school in the Canal Zone, which was ST Mary school, Uh, from first to eighth grade.

00:07:52.630 - 00:08:12.170

And they used to joke and say that we are spoke with Brooklyn accents because the nuns there were Sisters of Mercy from Brooklyn, and, uh, and then after eighth grade, we all went into the canals in public school system, which has always had a great reputation as being an excellent school system.

00:08:12.640 - 00:08:44.430

And I was actually, uh, 1979 was the canal treaties, and that was the date that the transition began. 20 year transition 70 1999. And, uh, the Department of defense schools took over the school system at that time because the canal Zone government was basically, uh, um stopped being, you know, the government entity that random canals on, and the Panamanian authorities basically started taking over the Civic and the civil Administration and everything.

00:08:44.430 - 00:08:58.960

So the schools a lot of the things had to be absorbed by the military at that point, and the school system was one of the hospitals or another. And so all eight of you know, the Children, my seven siblings and I alga had graduated from Babel High School.

00:08:59.440 - 00:09:19.740

My oldest sister, Elizabeth, 77 my sister Christina in in 79. I'm Class of 80. I have a brother class of 82 Patrick, my sister, Rebecca and 80 for my sister Melinda in 86. And I take that back. My two younger brothers did not graduate from Bible High School.

00:09:19.750 - 00:09:46.690

My dad retired, took early retirement in 1986 on, moved up here to married Island Florida, and my two younger brothers graduated from high school here. Okay, wow, one going back. Thio. I went to the Merchant Marine Academy and my grandparents on my mother's side lived in eastern Pennsylvania, and I used to go there for holidays to be with that side of the family on.

00:09:46.690 - 00:09:59.540

I used to carry on. And then when I would ship out as a cadet on, I used to walk up College Hill with my sea bag over my shoulder, just like I guess my great grandfather did when he met my great grandmother coming back from his C training.

00:09:59.550 - 00:10:20.250

So did you Have you mentioned the Balboa High School on really positive experience? Do you remember, like, favorite teachers? Um, yeah. I mean, it's it's hard to even pick a favorite that really stands out, because it was it was just a overall positive experience. I enjoyed it.

00:10:20.250 - 00:10:35.990

I, you know, I played football. So we had good coaches. One teacher who stands out, who I didn't actually have. But he's a good friend now, and he's actually teaching over to school in Merritt Island where my son is gonna be starting next year. So it's kind of funny.

00:10:36.000 - 00:10:48.910

I didn't have him for any classes, but he was my football coach and his name was Louis Houston on If he ever gets a chance to do a history, he would be very, very interesting because I don't know if he's gonna do one of these, but oh, contact.

00:10:48.920 - 00:11:04.870

Yeah, he's a real interesting guy and he has a lot of good stories. Here's your football coach. Yeah, he was my football coach. The interesting thing about the canal zone, there was only two high schools. We had one on the Pacific side of one on the Atlantic side.

00:11:04.870 - 00:11:24.660

They call it the Caribbean side. And so, by the time we were in school on the school served not only the canal zone, you know, dependence of the of the civilian employees, but also all the military dependency. And there was enough of the student population by the time we were there to create more teams.

00:11:24.660 - 00:11:37.250

So they divided our high school in the to, uh and they created two teams, Bulldogs and Red Machine. And then the junior college fielded a team, which is which they did from for many years before that. So there was three teams that played each other there.

00:11:37.260 - 00:11:54.630

Bobbo, high school, crystal ball, high school and canals on college. Okay. And then? Then they expanded it. I was actually after my time, but when when coach used it was my coach way. I was playing for the college team because I did two years of junior college before I went upto Thio Merchant Range.

00:11:56.030 - 00:12:14.860

Which was nice because I lived in the town side of la Boca, which was right across the street from the canals on college so I could get up at 7. 30 from my 7 40 classes. And, uh, Mr Grimes now you said you were, ah, pilot for a few years in the canal zone.

00:12:14.860 - 00:12:35.270

And that's really exciting to hear we last year, we interviewed, um, two pilots Mr Albert Wilder, who was a pilot right after World War Two. He was in the Merchant Marine during World War two, then another gentleman whose name I cannot remember. But he was a few years later.

00:12:35.280 - 00:12:53.150

And so what years were Europe? I was a pilot there from 1997 to 2000, and I got out of the Merchant Marine Academy in 86 I started sailing in the Merchant Marine, mostly on oil tankers. I did that for 11 years, upgrading my license to Masters unlimited tonnage.

00:12:53.540 - 00:13:08.930

And then, uh, in 97 I was able to get back in for a while there because of the transition. If you were a U. S. Citizen, they wouldn't hire you because after the treaties that you would be hired, any U. S citizens hired Post Treaty were on like a five year rotation.

00:13:08.940 - 00:13:25.800

You could only worked there for five years, but as you're probably aware, many Canal Zone Ian's have dual citizenship. And so by the time 97 came around and there was only three years left to the transitions, they finally realized. Well, I guess that five year rotation doesn't apply.

00:13:25.810 - 00:13:43.540

So as long as they're dual citizens on their willing to stay afterwards, we'll hire you. And so that's how I did. I Even I was born in Pennsylvania. I was able to get my Panamanian papers through my dad being born in a and so yeah, it was really need a great place to learn how to handle ships and be a pilot.

00:13:43.540 - 00:14:00.660

It was a lot of fun, really, really interesting now. I also married into a pilot family. My wife's father is a pilot. Her and she's got two uncles. Her mother's brother is a pilot and her father's brother is a port captain. Uh, so it was interesting.

00:14:00.660 - 00:14:13.470

It was fun. And so I did that for three years. And then I was able to get a job up here in Port Canaveral after the after the final transition in the year 2000. But I worked for the Panama Canal Authority for the first nine months.

00:14:13.640 - 00:14:30.100

What was it like moving from, you know, you had been on oil tankers before, right? And what was that? That transition from oil tankers to being a pilot technology? Well, becoming a pilot is a goal for a lot of people that ship out. Because when you ship on the merchant running, you're gone for 34 months at a time.

00:14:30.660 - 00:14:41.160

Then when you become a pilot, whether you're a harbor pilot or canal pilot, you actually get to go home every night. Or maybe not every night if you're working the night shift, but at least you're you're you're not gone for three or four months at a time.

00:14:41.540 - 00:14:59.000

So that that was a big plus. And that was right about the time. And I just got married and started a family. My first, our first daughter was born um, in July of 97 I started piloting in in October of 97. So it was perfect timing where I didn't have to be gone the whole time when we were raising our family.

00:14:59.010 - 00:15:18.730

So those are the big pluses for it. But you know it za fun job. But it's, ah, three hours. We're not the greatest, but but it's worth it, especially when your first training. I mean, it's a long hours and a lot of a lot of transits to build up that experience, which is basically what a pilot is.

00:15:18.730 - 00:15:43.930

You have to have a penalty experience, but yeah, way have four Children. My oldest is Carly, and she was born like I said in 97 she way had after I graduated from college and my parents had retired and moved from Panama here to the Cocoa Beach area in Merritt Island, which I basically followed my dad's parents, who retired from the Canal Zone in the early seventies and moved to married island.

00:15:44.090 - 00:16:02.490

So as a kid we would come on vacation. We would go to Pennsylvania every other summer, government would pay for annual leave and spent a lot of time, which was really neat because we were able to, you know, uh, grow up with our cousins in Pennsylvania, see them every two years.

00:16:02.500 - 00:16:18.850

And then after my dad's parents retired, we started spending some time over in Cocoa Beach, and so it was nice because we knew the area. And then when I started shipping out, I ended up actually buying the home that my grand after my grand parents passed away in Merritt Island.

00:16:19.440 - 00:16:38.060

And then when I got the job in Panama, we had to move back on DSO. The funny thing is, I tell people that I moved back to Panama through the mail because, like I said, the Department of Defense took over a lot of the functions of the you know, they took over the postal system.

00:16:38.070 - 00:16:58.970

And so I had a lot of friends, my oldest sister, one of them who stayed and went back to Panama work. And they were Department of Defense schoolteachers. And so between other friends and relatives who had these mailboxes. We pack because we didn't take any big furniture, but we sent boxes of all our personal stuff with a P o male.

00:16:59.140 - 00:17:18.430

That's how we move back to Panama. Wow, that's so cool. Well, and now you mentioned it took it Takes a while to build of experience, you know, to learn how to be a harbor pilot or to be a canal zone. Uh, what were some of your early early experiences in the canals?

00:17:18.430 - 00:17:37.190

I mean, what take us through what you had to learn in order to be a successful pilot through the training program. Really? What you do is you end up riding with other pilots. So the senior pilots and you, you know, initially you're just observing and watching what they're doing, and then they start telling you.

00:17:37.190 - 00:18:02.310

Okay, you got it. You take it. And then what a pilot actually does is a pilot doesn't actually grabbed the wheel of this ship in the throttle. Pilot takes a navigational command of this ship. Um, captain basically turns it over to the pilot. And then the pilot gives the verbal commands for steering the vessel for the speed for the tugboats and in the canal for the locomotives on the lock walls to position the ship in the chambers.

00:18:02.780 - 00:18:24.180

And so you're just riding ships, and then what? They do is they, after so many months of satisfactory training with other pilots that they'll cut you loose on, uh, limited small, small vessels. So, like your first transit through the canal solo as a solo pilot might be on a tuna boat.

00:18:24.340 - 00:18:59.040

Okay, 200. In fact, your first step on the of P I t pilot and training is 225 ft or less. So you get these Japanese fishing vessels, which are affectionately known as Chuka Chuka Maru's, because the diesel sounds like chuka chuka chuka chuka, chuka chuka. Uh, and then and then you build up over months and over the first year of training, next thing you're on 400 ft ships or less 525 ships or less, and then as you're progressing up, then you know then then the pilot system has eight steps.

00:18:59.440 - 00:19:16.590

Step one pilot Step two pilots Step three pilot, and it takes 1 to 2 years in between each step and then, after about eight years, total your step a pilot, which means you can handle any ship that comes through the canal. So and it's when when your junior pilot attack that time especially.

00:19:16.590 - 00:19:33.430

It was you were mostly working nights on the smallest when the smaller ships go through. Because the daytime is when the panamaxes, which are the largest ship that can fit in the lock 106 ft in beam, 965 ft in length. So the larger ships, which were daylight transit only, um, required the senior pilots.

00:19:33.440 - 00:19:55.350

So on the night patrol, we got the banana boats, the reefers, You know, the small fishing boats and the smaller ones. And and it was really neat toe handle those kind of ships, you know, a little bit different handling. And, you know, the big ships you gotta put tugs on them and ease them right into the locks and write him along the center wall, whereas the little ships you know, actually, the goal was not Thio run down the wall.

00:19:55.350 - 00:20:12.590

You know, you wanted to keep him out. And so when you're when you're on the lake entrances, there was what we call the wing wall wide approach, which is how you approach the lock chambers. You're trying to keep the ship kind of way out, and then you're trying to take into account the hydrodynamic effects of section, which will pull a ship in towards the wall.

00:20:12.600 - 00:20:34.460

Um, narrow channel effects on ships. And so it was fun. It was fun. Thio handle ships like that on board now, the other the earlier, uh, pilots that we talked to you talked about some of the harrowing experiences. Did you have any Any X? I will say exciting experiences.

00:20:34.470 - 00:20:46.320

I mean, every pilot has close calls. I mean, that's that comes with the territory and everybody and everybody. You know, sooner or later, you're gonna have a bump here there as well. You know, whether it's on a lock or a dock. In my case and sweat where I'm working now.

00:20:46.320 - 00:21:10.670

We don't have locks, but I can remember one time training when you're on the smaller ships. Sometimes they'll do these tandem tandem transits where they put two smaller ships in the locks at the same time. And I was on a tuna boat, I guess, and I was behind a little bit larger ship, but a smaller ship, relatively speaking, maybe a 500 ft long reef or something like that, or a 450 ft ship, and we're making the approach.

00:21:10.670 - 00:21:28.560

And so you're kind of in touch with the pilot ahead because the two of you are transiting are locking down together in the chamber on the pilot. I had neglected to tell me that there was that he was stopping the ship, waiting on all of a sudden, You know, we're coming up on the stern of the ship, and I had to drop the anchor and Esso.

00:21:28.570 - 00:21:57.530

Everything worked out fine. But that was that was a little bit of a moment. Even it was a small ship. Yeah, but yeah. Um, one. I was a junior pilot one time, and I, you know, again, not a whole lot of experiences. You're building experience. And I was on a refrigerated cargo ship, a reefer, and I got on at the Atlantic Anchorage and I was heading up towards gateau.

00:21:57.530 - 00:22:15.380

Unlocks and traffic had gotten backed up somewhere along the way. Or maybe there was fog in the cut. Traffic backed up. So they told me we gotta turn the ship around and go back to anchor. You don't have to wait another day. So, uh, position where I was in the channel for me at that time.

00:22:15.380 - 00:22:34.110

you know, maybe for a senior, probably always no big deal. But for me to turn the ship around where I was in the channel, that was pretty interesting. Maneuver the tiles. You take a Smith through that maneuver like Well, there's a There's a little entrance to what they call the third locks, which is now they're actually using that to build a new locks.

00:22:34.120 - 00:22:57.660

It was a started, I guess. Pre World War Two on both sides of the canal, they were getting ready to build a whole new set of locks. Um, on each side, Andi excavate after the U S. Got in the World War two, that project kind of faded away, and so But there was this there is this cut their when you're approaching the locks that that was the only position I could see where to turn the ship around in the channel.

00:22:58.040 - 00:23:11.060

And so I just, uh I had a tugboat, you know, so otherwise I don't know if I would have done it. So it's basically a back and fill maneuver, you know, You know when you do your car three point turn on a car or something like that.

00:23:11.070 - 00:23:30.640

But I had the of course you have the tug to push and but it was nice because after I did it turned about a port and, you know, give the ship a good kick, a stern. And when you give a conventional, uh, ship on a stern bell, it has a tendency thio kick kick a stern.

00:23:30.640 - 00:23:55.490

Actually, I went back to starboard. Take advantage of this fact thesis. Turn of a ship will have a tendency to twist toe port so you can you can make a turn in a tighter area. Um, by taking advantage of that fact, it gives you more of a rotational moment, you know, So you can give, like, put the rudder hard to starboard, give it a kick ahead on your the engines and get a turning to starboard.

00:23:55.500 - 00:24:10.570

And then you put the backing belt put, the writer mentioned, put in a backing belt, and that tendency toe for the stern to move to port is gonna help the ship twist. And you already already have that rotational moment going on. If you have a tugboat there to help you to you, can you turn the ship in a tight area?

00:24:10.580 - 00:24:23.360

That's what we did. And the nice thing about it was after after I was all said and done, the tugboat captain complimented me. That's why I kind of remember it because I was a junior pilot and I turned the ship around and the guys that was a good job like that.

00:24:23.640 - 00:24:42.160

So make me feel good. Anyway, other guys might look at us. They had no big deal. What are you talking about? What it was It was nice. Was there kind of, Ah, fraternity among the you mentioned the different steps of the pilots today with the war veteran pilots tell you stories about, like, older.

00:24:42.170 - 00:25:02.840

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And in my case, because I had family members who were pilots, I had the benefit of, you know, hearing those stories around the dinner table, you know, family functions and things like that, too. My first two weeks as a pilot training, they put you with a mentor pilot, and I was able to go with my wife's uncle for the first two weeks, so that was nice.

00:25:02.840 - 00:25:20.700

It was kind of interesting, though, because he kind of cut me loose. All right, let's see what you can Dio was still kind of e being in the merchant marine and going in and out of ports. You see, you've sort of pilots, so you have an idea, but yeah, but, uh, we were, you know, one of the one of the big things down there.

00:25:20.700 - 00:25:37.310

The challenges airship handling ships is the wind, especially if you're on the big car ships of the cruise ships. You know that the wind will will set the ship. So you have thio. Um, you know, take that into account. When you're trying to make an approach to a lock, you know, you might not be able to steer direct course into the locks.

00:25:37.310 - 00:25:55.980

You have to put a couple degrees of leeway one way or the other to account for the wind. And, uh, here's another ship story. I was coming. E was making a lake approach of gateau unlocks, and it was extremely windy. And the wind was blowing across the locked entrance towards the spillway of the dam at the Gattine Dam on the getting looks.

00:25:56.250 - 00:26:20.260

And I mentioned the wing wall wide approach earlier. This was a small ship, and then you also have what we call the C entrance approach and on the sea entrance approach, you're trying to account for the current that's coming out of the locks when they spill, Uh, or when the locks gates are open, and on this entrance and this maneuver, you aim directly for the center wall, and then as you get close, you kind of turn the ship.

00:26:21.020 - 00:26:44.310

And so here's the chamber over here. So you turn the ship, you call it maybe a little bit of an s curve and then you go, um, towards the chamber opening, and then you come back in towards the wall, so it's a little bit of a nice curve turn, and you're trying to stem the current because the current comes out kind of curves across the end of the center wall, and that's a C entrance approach.

00:26:44.310 - 00:27:12.460

So I was on this, uh, small cargo vessel making my approach, and I should have been doing a lake approach because, you know, the wind worldwide. But the wind was so strong coming across the locks entrance that I had to do a C entrance approach, so it was pointing right at the, uh, the center wall on then, when I got there, I turned and I put the stern of the ship right into the wind that was howling across and trying to push the whole ship across.

00:27:13.040 - 00:27:34.160

So the dam and then I did my estern and brought it right back in. And it was a beautiful maneuver. The only problem was I was overspeed as I was going by. Now, in order for the locomotives to pass lines and make up, you have to be doing three knots or less, more like 2.5 knots or less and slowing down all the time, you know, and the bigger ships, or even slower than that, because they're just coming into the wall.

00:27:34.800 - 00:27:49.020

But I got to say, all those guys on the wall, the locomotives, they were running the locomotives. They have a light on them that indicates when their maximum speed and can't go any faster, they're screaming down. And of course, I put a big backing bell on the ship and we drop the anchor.

00:27:50.850 - 00:28:22.750

When it was all said and done, we had locomotive wires on a ship that size only takes four locomotives total to on the center wall into on the sidewalk we had We had come nicely alongside the wall. Um, the local motors were made fast. And the only problem waas we had the anchor down way had to drop the anchor on they ship Captain and crew were great because as soon as I said drop the anchor, they put the anchor right down and it s oh, way had to back the ship up to retrieve the anchor on.

00:28:22.760 - 00:28:51.540

Then we went in. So that was That was an interesting experience, Thio. But you had, uh when did you just It was this something being a pilot? Was that something? I mean, you kind of growing up with it. Was that a goal you always had? It's funny, you know, You you grow up watching ships going by all the time, but actually what caught my interest more than piloting Was the tugboats Alright?

00:28:51.550 - 00:29:08.350

Growing up, I looked at those tugboats and I thought, What a cool job audience. I mean, pushing, you know, helping the ships dock and I'm dark and getting into the locks and out of the lock. So that was really my interest. And then and they had an apprentice program down there where you could go into a Tebow made trainee.

00:29:08.740 - 00:29:24.000

And I took the Apprentice test as a junior in high school in 1979. But I had bad timing because that was right, treaties. And, you know, as I mentioned earlier, they got rid of the police force and, you know, a lot of the government side jobs.

00:29:24.010 - 00:29:40.320

And so a lot of people were transferring over. And so they got preference and extra points if they tried to get into the various apprenticeships. Plus, Panamanians were getting 11 point preference at that time to try to get the Panamanians a little workforce. So, you know, I did okay on the test, but not not enough.

00:29:40.330 - 00:30:10.370

Teoh get a job. So that's when I started saying, OK, if I wanna become a tempo Captain word, I have to go to school and all that, And that's how I got interested in a merger Mean academy and then. But the interesting thing is that my other great grandfather on my father's side, my grandmother's father was a tugboat captain, one of the first time captains on the canal, and he's actually a new fee from Newfoundland in his early twenties, He was a captain of a Grand Banks fishing schooner.

00:30:11.300 - 00:30:26.740

Then he emigrated to New York and he was a harbor. He was a harbor type captain in New York. And from there he ended up down in the canal. So I guess it was in the blood. But that's how I got interested. And then I started looking around.

00:30:26.740 - 00:30:39.410

Okay, where do I have to go toe to pursue this kind of a career? And that's how I ended up with the merchant rain again. On what years were you there at the academy from 1982 to 1986? I did. Two years after I got out of high school.

00:30:39.410 - 00:30:53.230

I did two years of the former canals on college and the name was changed. The Panama Canal College, after the transition in the Canal Zone ceased to exist on, uh, which helped me a lot. I don't think I would have made it the Merchant Marine Academy without two years ago.

00:30:53.240 - 00:31:10.730

But the Merchant Marine, the U. S. Merchant Marine Academy Kings Point, is a one of the five federal academies, and it's, uh, there's also 45 state maritime academies to, and there's actually a tradition from the canals on. There's one or two guys almost every year went into King's point.

00:31:10.740 - 00:31:26.510

And, uh, just like the other Federal Academy is, the only way you get in is from appointments through Congressman. Oh, yeah? And but the governor of the Canal Zone had two appointments as well. Okay, so, you know, I come to these reunions, usually see a couple of guys wearing the King's point shirts, and so we have to stop talking with.

00:31:26.520 - 00:31:46.680

I just met a guy last night Kings Point class of 72 who was a classmate. A couple of the pilots that I worked with over Port Canaveral za. Interesting. Now, from from a from, ah Pilot's perspective, what have been some of the technical changes that have occurred on the job over the years?

00:31:47.040 - 00:32:13.480

Well, the size of the ships just keep getting bigger and bigger. And, of course, this huge thing. And they've had a constant widening program of the canal even before the current project. But now I guess they're gonna be doing it at the luncheon tomorrow. They're gonna be giving a presentation on the banana widening project, and, uh so they, you know, they're making the canal much wider and deeper in preparation for the new locks.

00:32:13.490 - 00:32:37.150

So that's one change. But the other one is the use of a geographic information system are A I s system is actually what it is. Which is They have these handhold units that the pilots could take aboard this. These came into being right about the time I was training and they would put these units on the ship and it gives you another Elektronik nautical chart.

00:32:37.160 - 00:32:54.450

Shows you the position of the ship of where you are. It shows where the other ships are. So it was a huge technological aid and being ableto figure out. Okay, where do I want to meet this guy? Because there's certain places turns etcetera in the in the canal, where you prefer not to meet another ship, especially to big ships, bigger ships.

00:32:54.440 - 00:33:16.510

And that was pretty interesting because it used to be. It was all by radio. You have to trust the other pilot truthful about where he is, you know, because you could be the daylight transit only ships or the cut restricted ships where they could only have one ship in the in the cut one way traffic in the cut would have to hold up.

00:33:16.520 - 00:33:39.070

Like for example, Uh, a South bound ship would have to hold up in Damboa and wait for the north bounds to clear the cut in the morning. And, uh, you have Thio trust the other pilots, and I'm here in cold oyster. I'm here at this certain point at that point to get an idea of how close you could get or hold the ship up.

00:33:39.440 - 00:34:02.370

So some pilots would tell you they're not quite where they are on board. Um, so having that s system onboard, nobody could e know where you are. And I know when you're gonna be here based on your speed. So on guard on the night patrol, it comes in tow.

00:34:02.380 - 00:34:13.860

Play a little bit, too, because it was like a couple turns in the cut where you don't want to meet another ship, even the smaller ships you prefer not to meet. So you're kind of waiting and you're trying to time it thio not meet a guy at a certain point.

00:34:14.320 - 00:34:36.180

And he's telling you that he's further along than he really is. And you're waiting. You have to stop the ship. Tryto whole position with ships. Now, Were there any with all these difficult turns? Do you recall people talking about collisions that occurred? Oh, yeah, Yeah, there's There's been collisions over the years.

00:34:36.340 - 00:34:53.720

I remember as a kid a ship that sank in the cut. And I think the cargo was rice and there was the cargo is all over the place. Luckily, I think they were able to get it over to the side of the bank so the traffic could still move, which is one of the interesting things.

00:34:53.720 - 00:35:14.840

They actually have beaching areas along the canal. And the idea is, if something does go wrong, you don't want to ship to sink in the middle of the channel to obstruct the whole canal. So one of the things you do as a pilot as a trainee pilot, they make you memorize basically the charts, the nautical charts of the maps of the canal, and you have to draw them from memory.

00:35:14.840 - 00:35:31.290

They give you the outline of the land and on, and you have to put in a channel boundaries and the markers and everything and one of the things on those charts are all these little beaching areas. So if you ever have a steering failure or power failure or whatever and you know you're not gonna make a turn or something, you can put the ship up on these soft mud.

00:35:31.300 - 00:35:49.450

Beaching art is hopefully to avoid any major damage on, uh, still keep the canal clear so e can remember seeing a picture. I was still shipping out of the time on tankers, but I think maybe my father in law or somebody emailed one of these very large Maris container ships didn't make a term.

00:35:49.460 - 00:36:11.450

One of the big turns in the in the lake ended up outside the channel. And that was something to see. This 965 ft long container ship high and dry. So, yeah, there's there's there's collisions, you know, from time to time, there were collisions. Uh um but luckily nothing catastrophic or anything that obstructed the canal.

00:36:12.830 - 00:36:29.450

Now, what is now, I I hear a lot of people talking about the widening a za pilot. I mean, what does that? What does that really mean? Is that do you think in your estimation, is that make it a bit easier challenging if the ships were staying the same size would make it easier.

00:36:29.630 - 00:36:46.350

But since they're gonna accommodate ships that are much bigger than the ones going through now, it zat necessarily gonna be any easier because they're basically widening the channel, deepening the channel to accommodate ships. Right now, the maximum draft of a ship in the canal is 39 ft six inches.

00:36:46.830 - 00:37:12.020

And I think with the widening, they're going up to 45 ft and right now, the maximum b'more with of a ship that can go through the locks 106 ft And I'm not 100% sure my figures. But I think the new ones, we're gonna accommodate ships up to 140 150 ft and beam so and lengthwise to I mean right now, I think it's about 1965 is a panamax length, and they're gonna be 11 1200 ft long ships.

00:37:12.380 - 00:37:36.890

Yeah, so it's not gonna make it any easier. And the new locks design is doing away with the locomotives because right now, ships that go through the locks have the locomotives on each side, and they put up wires and help, you know, Some people think that sometimes people say all the locomotives totally ship into the chamber where the ship still has to use its own power to get into the chamber as well.

00:37:36.900 - 00:38:03.440

But they help keep the ship in the middle off the walls. And they and they helped break the ship and get her stuff and they do tow as well. They do help with moving the ship, but they're not necessarily the prime, um, factor and actually moving the ship ship has to use its engine as well, but they're going away from that type of lock and they're gonna just toe the ships in with tugboats, tug boat ahead and a tugboat on the stern, maybe to arm the stern.

00:38:03.440 - 00:38:23.200

I'm not sure how it's gonna work on, but there's a right, so that is gonna be challenging. I'm sure that's gonna be maybe, 20 years from now that I've been doing it for 20 years, that I'll be saying all this is easy now that's a huge change, because the big deal with locomotives, really it's more of us.

00:38:23.210 - 00:38:41.430

It was more of a stabilization keeping the ship centered in the chamber and helping to break them in the chamber. And then when you think about those chambers, it's like a big piston, you know, ship going into one of those lock chambers because they're displacing. The ship has to display all that water that's in the chamber as the ship is coming in.

00:38:41.430 - 00:38:58.040

That water is being displaced and pushing out. And when you have a Panamax ship in the chamber, that's maximum draft. I mean, there's not a whole lot of water left inside that chamber. You know, there's a couple of feet underneath the ship in a couple of feet on each side and not ships floating in there.

00:38:58.040 - 00:39:18.160

It's it's kind of crazy when you think about how the ship could still be floating. Uh, anyway, would you go back now? I mean, if you with widening with be something or E, I still have a lot of good friends that are piloting in the count relatives on.

00:39:18.520 - 00:39:33.010

Yeah, you know, I sometimes think about it. It's but I'll tell you, man, those pilots down they earn their money because those air long transits on. And you know, being a harbor pilot here in Florida is much shorter run. My hours were a little bit better.

00:39:33.010 - 00:39:56.050

My time off is a little bit better on those guys. You know, it's a stressful job maneuvering those large vessels in close proximity. Thio in very narrow channels without a lot of room for error in close proximity to a large concrete structures. Whether they're locks or docks, etcetera, it takes its toll even though I love Panama and I enjoy going back there all the time.

00:39:56.050 - 00:40:11.390

And I would you know, I would have been happy to stay. There is a pilot, but I ended up getting the opportunity to come up here. But I don't know the quality of life issues also play into it a little bit. Yeah, so because those guys work hard down there, they earn their money.

00:40:11.400 - 00:40:34.730

Yeah, I can see retiring down there. I can, you know, at least part of the year. But I do think about it sometimes. Be going back. But I don't know. I think my window of opportunity thio make changes getting low now because I'm pushing 50 and E uh, yeah, you.

00:40:34.740 - 00:40:56.470

It just seems with the widening and everything and the ships getting larger and larger that Aziz, you're saying it's the job isn't getting any less stressful with technology. It's right with the bigger ships. Its's relatively still, you know, in a narrow channel, you know, and restricted maneuverability.

00:40:56.480 - 00:41:14.410

You know, so not like being out in the open ocean where you can go anywhere and do whatever you want. So, yeah. Jobs not getting any easier for those guys? I don't think. Yeah, Well, did you have any I I think one of the things that Kevin Wilder was talking about was the, uh in which we haven't talked about yet.

00:41:14.410 - 00:41:32.820

Was the association uh, pilots association? Did that have much of an impact on working conditions when you were? Oh, yeah, Well, it was It's always been a collective bargaining. You know, the, uh, back during the U. S. Era was a branch of the Masters Makesem Pilots union.

00:41:32.810 - 00:41:58.610

Mhm. And I guess at times you could say it was a little bit of a contentious relationship between the union and management on that kind of continued a little bit, a little bit with the Panamanian, uh, administration. And when I was up at the Merchant Marine Academy in Kings Point about the time I was there, they started.

00:41:58.620 - 00:42:19.340

We start getting a lot of Panamanian students through various government programs. Thio get more guys trained up Thio takeover, piloting jobs in the canal Eventually, after going to see and getting some experience. Yeah, And so, you know, I toe the guys when they when they had English papers, they'd always come and seek me out to help them out with their English papers and things like that.

00:42:19.340 - 00:42:49.230

And I worked at the officers club and I would bring back, you know, leftover filet mignon and lobster tails and stuff, and I had all the guys working at The Officers club is a clean up crew after what is and stuff. So anyway, here I am back at the canal in 97 98 timeframe, and they're working on the collective bargaining agreement going forward on the some of the pilots who were on the negotiating team were guys that were at the Kings Point with me, and they said, grimacing in here to proof.

00:42:49.230 - 00:43:03.430

Read this this stuff and make sure these guys aren't trying to screw us with E. Came out of the can. I came in and it was really interesting. I got to sit at the table and watch some of these negotiations and one of the pilots that was negotiating.

00:43:03.800 - 00:43:22.590

I can just remember, as he's walking around the room, engaged in these negotiations and wiping his brow with his handkerchief. I'm just flashing back to remember his imitation of a rooster back in Kings on the dorms. But eso finally, after about a week, I said, You know, I really got to get back in the car because I'm a junior pilot.

00:43:22.590 - 00:43:39.010

You guys are all you know seniors eso. But any time you need, you want me to read something, just tell me and I'll come into the Union Hall and read it. So that was pretty interesting. So Well, I was curious because I know in an earlier period the association seem to be really important.

00:43:39.010 - 00:43:56.310

So I didn't know if that continued very much. So they I think probably the Panamanian administration would prefer not to be so. But, yeah, the pilots union. There's still a very much a collective bargaining, uh, situation between them, and it does get a little contentious at times, I guess.

00:43:56.320 - 00:44:17.650

What are the main points of bargaining? Um, in terms of the UK and yeah, working rules and scheduling rules and rotation And how? How? How much time? Rest? Periods two pilots need in between jobs. How much time off do they get between duty, periods and all that kind of kind of thing.

00:44:17.660 - 00:44:45.390

And the pay the pay gets a little complex with bonuses, and I'm not totally upon it. Now, since I've been gone from, I've actually been gone from for 11 years almost. But, uh but yeah, that that all comes into play. Okay, Did you now, when you were when you were piloting between 97 2000, Uh, would you get bonuses for larger vessels or Yeah, yeah, there's different things.

00:44:45.400 - 00:45:15.070

Uh, trying to remember, E, remember what? But that was part of it. Um uh, and number of transits, I guess, was one thing that you would get a certain bonus after you hit a certain number of transits in a period. Yeah, I don't remember all the details at this point, but generally, if you, um, the way they structured the pay, you would have a base pay.

00:45:15.270 - 00:45:32.970

And then I think by the time I was working there, the bonuses had kind of been uh, here's your base pay. And here's your bonus. It was almost automatic, you know, But it was just a little bit different. You know how they divvied up the pay so that it wasn't all.

00:45:32.980 - 00:45:48.580

Here's a salary. You get the salary, and you did have to complete certain amount of transit stuff like that to get all the bonus. But I think by the time I was there was kind of it was almost kind of rolled up into, like, an automatic pay rather than specific bonus for this or that.

00:45:48.590 - 00:46:03.880

But there were. So what? Was it you A? I'm trying to remember what that was. I think that's one has mentioned earlier. They had to do with number of transits. Okay, Well, Mr Grimsson is there. I know. I've taken a lot of your time. No problem, is there?

00:46:03.890 - 00:46:18.750

Are there any other things that we haven't talked about that you like to add are at the top of my head? I'll probably remember all kinds of stuff after I walk out. E you can always call us if you want to do a follow up. If there are other aspects.

00:46:18.750 - 00:46:35.230

Yeah, well, because I guess I'm sure I'll probably remember a few anecdotes or something. Yeah, it was just a great place to grow up. A lot of history, living, living a So many people describe it. You know, the rainforest is your backyard, you know, just just really meet.

00:46:35.820 - 00:46:57.310

And, of course, being there for a lot of the history, a lot of the the treaty transition and all that going through all of that was interesting. And, you know, you know, at the time were most of us down there were upset we Even when I was in high school, we actually went out on strike treaty negotiations.

00:46:57.310 - 00:47:16.590

I think it was around 1978. Um, when? When? You know it was. I guess it was being debated in Congress whether or not to sign these treaties. Thio transition that the canal zone. Get rid of the canal zone in transition. The canal over to the Republic, Republic of Panama and, uh, showed up to school one day.

00:47:16.590 - 00:47:32.310

And there's a couple of kids out front saying Don't go into school were protesting against the treaties. And, you know, of course, teachers and principals come walking around, get into your classrooms a few more people start standing around looking at each other to see what's gonna happen before you know it.

00:47:32.280 - 00:47:47.620

I don't know if it was half to school, but there was a large crowd of kids out there and the bell rings and nobody goes in. You know, a couple of the ringleaders started getting up and making their little speeches. And before, you know, we had a huge group and we went over in front of the administration building and have these big protests.

00:47:47.620 - 00:48:06.790

Of course, the Panamanian press got wind of it and they came out taking pictures and headlines in the Panamanian newspapers. The next day zone Ian's one another January 9th, which is a reference to the 64 riots, which was, I guess, kind of the thing that really got treating negotiations going, you know where you know, the republic.

00:48:06.800 - 00:48:38.800

That's when they started flying both flags in the Canal Zone, Panama and the U. S. At the time. So that was interesting and it was funny. I actually saved some of those newspapers, and there's various pictures of the kids that I think it went over two or three days and there was one picture of looked like a blonde American girl on She's holding up a handmade sign that says, General Estoy Contigo, which basically it was like General Torrijos, I'm with you E got a kick out of that one.

00:48:39.170 - 00:48:58.820

So that was That was a very interesting period, you know, There was a little bit of tension in turmoil. People were not sure what the future held. And then, of course, I wasn't there for in 1989. But of course you had that whole theory, which I'm sure you've got some oral histories from people that, in fact, maybe I'll get my wife to come down because she was there for that.

00:48:58.830 - 00:49:19.930

And, uh, you know, listening to all the stories of it's funny because I actually went down on vacation in November of 89 on. The tension was so thick you could cut the air with a knife, and I just. But the people who lived there had been going through this for so long, and they have gotten so used to these alerts because the military has different P m.

00:49:19.930 - 00:49:43.600

L Z. I think they call them personnel limitation movements or something like that. Movement limitations And, you know, with all the tension had been building and incidents going on between Noriega's military and the US military and civilians. People have gotten so used to it. But when I was down there on vacation, I was like, this place is gonna blow, you know, watching a PCs and tanks rumbling through town was the US kind of, You know what?

00:49:43.600 - 00:50:05.130

We're showing their muscle and moving troops around and stuff. And yes, uh, I flew back. I actually flew back after vacation, Got on a ship, a tanker over in Texas somewhere And where I think we were coming in a channel and I looked at I see this outbound tanker leaving Texas heading south, and it was a military sealift.

00:50:05.130 - 00:50:23.940

Shit. It was so loaded down, it was so loaded down deep. And that's when I said, when you see the ships carrying the fuel for the military, you know, it's about to go down. I wasn't that surprised when, you know, about a month later, it happened.

00:50:24.000 - 00:50:39.020

Wow. Yeah, that's yeah, it's interesting. I was actually stationed in found out from 84 to 86. 0, but for some of that, the early stages of it. Well, we were in, I was in special forces and we were mainly in other places. We were in country on Lee.

00:50:39.030 - 00:51:02.890

Okay, a little r and R in between. Well, we were stationed. Our post was a for Davis. But again, we were mainly in Honduras and other places. Right? Right. There's a lot going on in Central America back then. E could remember the tensions, but I remember Maura about, you know, I do remember getting up in the barracks one of the few times I was there and watching a big vessel come through.

00:51:02.890 - 00:51:19.830

And it was amazing that my father had been in the navy and I came from Traditionally, my family had been in the navy different. And so they all had stories about going through the canal hazing. There's a hazing ritual that younger sailors would have to go through.

00:51:19.840 - 00:51:28.980

You know, we went through that. So it was It was really interesting. Well, are there anything else, Mr. E, remember? Fucking e o