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Okay. It's, uh, July 2nd, approximately 9. 15 Matthew White for those Sam Proctor Oral History program is interviewing. Oh, Steve Carta. Cartago, Cartago, Cartago. My apologies. A to the Panama Canal Re union Onda First. If you could just want you to give me just a brief overview of your involvement with the Panama Canal.

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Just sort of the umbrella. Sort of my personal. Your personal. Yeah. Well, when did you get there? What? How long were you there? When did you leave that? I was born there in 1951. I was a third generation, um, at that time and I left in 1971.

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So I was there about 19 years and grew up there. I went to school, um, had a great life and just didn't work out that I was going to stay there. I would like to have, but okay. It didn't work out. Well, let's come back to that.

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You said third generation. So talk to me a little bit about your ancestors when they got there, Who they were. Well, my my grandfather, he was John Eugene Ridge. You came from Pennsylvania Pittsburgh area with three of his brothers and I got some notes here from Sure.

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Um, my grandfather came down in November of 1909 when he was 19 and his two older brothers, Joseph Patrick Ridge, was a steam shovel engineer and he worked with the canal in 1905 on A Wishes Peter Ridge in 1908 And then, um my mom thinks in 1911, Stephen, Mark Ridge and Leo Martin Ridge came down to work.

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So that's not his father's. Yeah, these are my mother's relatives. Yeah, her uncles and my grandmother had a sister. I think. Let's see what she married to Larry. Yeah, and I wrote my mother and said, There's a lot of bachelors down here on DSO She went down and this story is she went to a dance.

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Um, before she was married, Larry had invited her to a dance, and for some reason, he couldn't go. So he said to my grandfather, Who would you take her? And, uh, they ended up getting married. So the brothers, I think all the other brothers left. Jack was the only one who stayed down there, and he had 11 kids, of which seven of them stayed down there?

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Um, my mom and my Uncle John Bob, Uncle Pat, Uncle Blubber. And, um, they worked in various areas. Uncle John worked for the water treatment plant. Uncle Barber and Uncle Bob both, uh, worked for the oil bunkering plant. You know, feeling ships that came through. Uncle Pat was a canal pilot.

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My mom did various clerical work, and she ended up being a secretary to the governor on And I was born in 51. Have a sister. My dad went down in the Army in 1933. He was a musician. And, yeah, he played in the Army band. And another story my mom just told me was that here they arrived in Panama on ST Patrick's Day of 1933.

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Arrived in Colon. They were shipped over to the Pacific side. They were gonna be at Fort Clayton, and they had a dance that night at the American Legion Club. I think it was in Amador, and so the band had to play for that dance on It Turns out that my grandfather and grandmother attended that dance, So his future in laws were there.

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E no, it's to him. And they didn't get married until I think 1947 or 48. But he got out of the army. Um, well, while he was down there, he played in various local orchestras as well. You know, moonlighting. And he would go on bivouac. He told us, uh, be out, You know, out in the bush, camping out and pick or or somewhere And one of the guys I think his name was, uh, um Avellino Moon Yo's had an orchestra that he played in.

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He'd come out and pick him up at the bivouac, take him into town, they play their gig and bring him back. And, uh, anyway, when he got out of the army, he was from Paterson, new Jersey. He went back to Jersey and the guys in the band came up and said, Hey, why don't you come back down to Panama?

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Did he know your mom at that point? No, he didn't know. Okay. Yeah. So he came back down to Panama and he played in the local orchestras. He got hired with the canal company. He was in the claims branch. I'm not sure exactly what they did.

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They handled, uh, reimbursements for various, uh expenditures and different things like that. And that's where he met my mom. She ended up working under him in the claims branch. Now, when you say orchestra, was it a symphony orchestra? Yeah, More jazz Orchestra. He played flute, clarinet, saxophone and he had had dance bands in New Jersey.

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They would play prom's and balls and stuff like that. Uh, you know, it was Ah, small, maybe like eight or 10 piece orchestra had a violin. I'm looking at some of the old pictures, violin, a saxophone, maybe a guitar drummer or bass player, a piano player or something like that.

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Sure. Was there a thriving jazz scene? I don't know if it was a jazz scene per se, and he used to tell me that you know, when when bebop came along, he just kind of hung up his horn because hey didn't go outside the box pretty much.

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He was pretty mainstream big band stuff. You loved the swing swing era stuff. Benny Goodman. You know that kind of stuff. And but the some of the photos we have it was, ah, thriving. Seen. There's ah, one from the El Rancho Ballroom down there, and you know, it could have been out of Vegas.

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They're all in there. You know, White tux is with Rose or Carnation or whatever dancing girls in their glitter suits. And it's just really this in Panama or in Panama. Yeah, this was it would have been in Panama. E think the zone was much more straight laced, you know?

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Always wasn't in my experience. Thio. You know, there might be a bar at the local officers club or something, You know, we're people would hang out, but did you ever go to see him play or had he hung it up? No. You know, he'd play at home.

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Yeah, and he gave us music lessons and stuff like that, but, uh, yeah, he came. I I don't know if his family was that musical, but he also played the mandolin, being as an Italian family on, and his parents had come over from Italy. So, um, they work in it a silk mill.

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There are silk weavers. And in Italy or in Jersey in Italy And a New Jersey. Yeah, And so he grew up around that, um, you know, later years I went through their attic and I found this old, you know, uh, teardrop shaped mandolin. You know, at that time, I was playing electric guitar, so I took the pick guard off of the mandolin and put it on my electric guitar.

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Ruined both instruments, but yeah. So And he became the chief of the claims branch over the years. Okay. Yeah, but how do you meet your mother, then? Well, she worked under him, Uh, she worked under him, and she had been dating John to Grammond, who was second generation.

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His father had come down. I think his father was commissary division for many years, and Jack ended up in the Treasury division. He later became the treasurer. And so when what did this have been? And probably the early forties, Maybe dated. My mom dated and dated and dated.

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He went to off on vacation on when? You and she said, Jack, you know, if if you haven't proposed to me by the time you leave, I may not be waiting for you. When you get back, you'll be waiting. You'll be waiting on Bond. He went on vacation on my dad, proposed to her and she accepted what?

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Jack came back. It was a done deal. Yeah, and so they got married and my dad died in 1968. He had had several heart attack shortly after I was born in the early fifties. In his E guess. Mid forties. He was, you know, fairly heavy smoker and drank quite a bit and didn't exercise, you know?

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So those things catch up. Thio and not fatal heart attacks. Fortunately, but anyway, he died in 68 a couple years later, my mom married Jack. So it's I've noticed that. And that's not the first time I've noticed either, that people can readily identify who's third. Whose second?

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Whose first generation zone? Ian, is that something that you knew about each other that Was there any status associated with that? No, I don't think so. We're just, you know, the community was so I guess I don't know if the word is insular but self contained.

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You know, it's just, you know, the families had had a history, you know. So my grandfather had his whole circle of friends and, you know, through the church organization or different community organizations, and, you know, that kind of followed through to my mom. She was a very social person involved in the church and scouting and whatever else.

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There were lots of community organizations for the Catholic community, the Protestant community, the Jewish community and you know, so it was just very interconnected. And people knew who people were. Andi, sort of like you might have in a village somewhere, You know, the elders and, you know, the generations like that.

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It's just kind of Now let's go back a little bit. You live. Tell me about your childhood, where you lived, where you went to school, things of that nature. What? I was born in Gorgas Hospital in 1951 and first lived in an con, which I don't remember.

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We have photographs of it was a four family wooden structure on concrete piers breezeway garage underneath. You know, second place we moved toe Los Rios, which was, I think, a fairly new community at the time. Or at least that the houses were knew that we moved into and that was a single family unit, um, perched up on a hill.

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And my mom, she was Ah, I guess I'm pretty avid gardener. And when the houses were built, it was nothing but mud around them. There was no landscaping they didn't put saw it in like they might do today. They put these clumps of grass in which would then spread.

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I guess it was like Bermuda grass on, you know, by the second rainy season, you had a lush lawn. Um, she planted all kinds of native plants, Creighton's and hibiscus, and everything was probably the first house to be totally landscape in the neighborhood. And with, you know, I don't remember having that many friends living in that neighborhood.

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But I was young at the time, and we'd have birthday parties and stuff like that and everyone would get together. But from there we moved to gavel in area, which was in Balboa, um, bordering Amador, which is right on the coast and gallon area, are where most of my early childhood memories are.

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And I was adding up just some of the families that I remember. I count at least 50 kids that I knew directly that we would play with in groups or separately. And so if you weren't in school, you got out of school. You got your homework done and you go outside and someone would be there.

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Well, the house is, Let's see. That would be like, say, two streets, houses on each street and in between. In the back was a open yard all the way down. I'm either be trees, and we had a great mango tree in the back that we could climb up in the mango tree.

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Take a little salt shaker and pick a green mango and just peel it off and eat the green mango sitting in the tree. Um, when we first moved in, there was kind of a mud path connecting the two streets, which when it rained, it would just be a total mess.

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Sure, and after a few years they put a sidewalk in and a playground right in back of our house. So we kind of looked out there, and that was kind of the locus of all the activity in the neighborhood. And so pretty much any time of day, you find somebody out there and you know, way pretty much had the run of the whole neighborhood, which encompassed I don't open.

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It was probably about it, I guess maybe a square half mile, which is a pretty good size I don't know how many acres that is and how many houses, but, you know, for there to be 50 kids that I personally knew there was, you know, probably, you know, 40 families for that many and maybe, you know, double or triple that that much in the neighborhood, and we pretty much had the run of it.

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It's like, Okay, I'm going out to play, OK, be back at dusk and you'd go a couple blocks over. And you know where I'm going Over toe Sandy's house, you know? Okay, See you later. You know, you know, you know, you were safe. You know, if they wanted you, they could just holler, and pretty much here.

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And then that was kind of the rule. You'd wait to hear that yellow, and then you come home. When? Later years. Ah, one of my buddies. His dad had a a cow's horn, you know, cut off that you'd blow and you hear that horn? And you knew that was his signal to head home.

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But, um, yeah, lots of kids. And for us boys, I think, you know, playing cowboys and Indians or army or something was the deal. You know we'd split up into teams and there was Ah, kind of a swamp on the edge of the neighborhood. Title flats is what it really waas Lots of mangroves and mud and, you know, we kind of like toe go down there and imagine we were in the jungle and a play like that.

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There were some older kids in the neighborhood. Yeah, my caring. It's funny. I talked to him about this later to my caring and, uh, maybe his brother Tim. Maybe Luigi Mantovani. Anyway, these guys and a couple of us younger kids ended up down on the edge of this title flat.

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And there was this great oozy mud down there, and there was some kind of like a storm drain concrete with, you know, cast iron cover. And we're standing on the right on the edge of this and they're saying, It's quick sand. It's quicksand. Jump in. No, no, Don't make me jump in.

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And you know, I was scared because they were older. Jump in or we're gonna eat you or beat you or whatever. It was gonna be eso Finally, I terrified I jumped in and it wasn't quick sand and I got totally muddy and they ran off laughing.

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I pulled myself out crying. You know, we'll bring. I was probably I don't know, maybe I was, like, five or six and went home in tears to my mom and my mom Tor into those boys. She called up their mom, you know, got me cleaned up in everything.

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So I saw might get one of these reunions. Welbeck, I said, Mike, you know, I remember you did this thing to me. He goes, Oh, yeah, It was a real asshole back then. But So So which elementary school did you go to? Well, I went to ST Mary's Mission Parochial school.

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Catholic school. Okay. Was that in his own around? Yeah. It was a two minute walk from my house, literally, right around the corner. Uh, and the nuns there, I guess when I was there, they were Franciscan nuns from somewhere stateside. And particularly, uh uh what they mean, none.

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I had for first grade sister Mary Adela and my family, Pretty much I think they adored those nuns. And my grandfather had a long history of working, working with the Catholic Church down there. In fact, um he Someone told my mama story that he lived in the town of old core Gona this'll woman saw him in their sweeping the church before Mass on Sunday and he wasn't paid to do.

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It was just something he thought needed to be done. So he did it and he ended up working with a community house, which I think at some point, there was a large building right on Balboa Road. Sort of used to be the main building of that school.

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I think it had columns, you know, kind of almost a classical looking building. And later they expanded the school. Um, but I started there in kindergarten, and I kind of remember part of this story. Uh, since it was so close, Recess Bell rang. All the kids went a school and I thought it was over.

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So I went home, which I just disappeared, and they couldn't find me afterwards in a ended up calling the house, it was a big todo They found me, but I went there through the eighth grade and then, eh? So how is your by the way? I'll interrupt Everyone try to keep that s Oh, you're the first person I've met here that didn't go toe.

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Ah, private school, parochial school in the zone. Now, what was that, like relative to your friends who might have gone to E s public school? Yeah. What were the differences when the similarities? Well, the difference was mainly that it was a religious school. So we had cataclysm classes or, um, and we were known as the ST Mary's fairies a pejorative way, Uh, didn't take too much a fence at it, and I think it was all in good fun.

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Um, but surprisingly, I mean, it was a large Catholic community, so the school was pretty much full. And did other denominations have their schools? No. I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't believe there was a Jewish school and a Z faras. The non Catholics went to public schools and some Cathy.

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I was talking to a friend last night. She went there for one year. You know, Her parents say it's your choice, and she went for one year now. Did, uh, it was for us. It was just a given. You're going to the cap? Sure, sure. But now my understanding, there's two things Of course I don't ask about because my understanding, of course, of the public schools is the people who have interviewed who went there.

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They talked about how planned your life was there in the sense that not only was their school, but there was just constant array of activities for you. Just from dance toe, archery toe, Um, that the canal zone had supplied for the kids. Did you see the same thing in the program?

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We'll actually, those were available to all of us. Okay, so, you know, the summer program, you just had to sign up like you might find in a parks and rec department today. I took archery one summer and the y m c A had classes. I took an art class.

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Remember when I was probably about 10 and swimming? We all swam. The pool was the other hot spot we went through. The whole, uh I don't know what it's called the You know, the beginner s a beginner swimming sort of advance way. Had our little stickers on our basic rights.

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And, uh, you know, the pool was the hotspot and Amador Beach. We all had access to the military recreation facilities way had our sticker on our car windshield. You know, Canal employees sticker. So, you know, Saturday Sunday would go on to Amador Beach and hang out there.

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You know, I'm kind of kind of privileged, really. It was. Especially when you consider the, you know, the country around it, you know? I mean, the abject poverty right across the street, you know, did you have much contact with many Panama on the Panamanians? Are you aware of the poverty?

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Yeah, definitely. Definitely. The groups of Panamanian kids would come into the neighborhoods. Thio pick mangoes, uh, and we would holler at him. You know, we deal policia policia like we're gonna call the cops, you know, And they might scamper off for in later years. They kind of, I guess we just kind of look at us, you know?

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And, you know, I can remember feeling bad about that at one point, you know, kind of kind of recognizing. Oh, you know, that's not right for me to be hollering at him, you know, in a But, you know, we lived in a It was pretty much I don't I don't know if its cradle t grave situation it wasn't luxury, necessarily.

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I mean, you know, you had a variety of income levels. Eso you had the blue collar jobs, the maintenance jobs, the guys that well, for the white community, pretty much because it was pretty much in apartheid. Kind of a situation there. Um, the Americans, I should say we're groomed for management jobs or super viz Auriol jobs in in any of the departments or divisions.

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Eso If if you chose as I did later to join the apprenticeship program, you would go in, I guess with the idea that at some point you would be the head of a crew and your crew consists mostly of Panamanian. Local local guys would be the laborers either the West Indians or or Panamanians in.

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So, you know, you needed a light bulb changed. You call the electrical division. All right. The switch is not working. I will send someone out, and then Mr so and so would come with his helper and fix it. The plumber. You know, Mr So and so would come.

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You know my dad's friend? Uh, Mr Peterson, he was an electrician's. There were guys that worked in the Elektronik shop later years. You know, I played in a rock and roll band. If my aunt needed fixing, we took it over to Mr Foster, and it put it right.

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You know, all those. All those services were provided for a nominal fee. You know, I think rent was pretty cheap compared to stateside. Um, income levels weren't that great. You know, my mom tells me Yeah, we didn't have a lot of money, but, uh, I don't recall ever wanting for anything.

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We didn't always get the newest latest car, like some of our neighbors might. You know, uh, one day you got, like, a new Chevy wasn't every year, maybe every other year. You know, we kept a car for 5, 10 years, you know? You know, where did you buy cars?

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Uh, don Panama. Yeah, they had a local car dealers, you know. Um smooth. Smooth Paredes. Smooth. Paredes. Yeah. Yeah. So you were a to procreate school? ST Mary's to your eighth grade. Did they have a high school? No, they didn't have a high school. Okay. And there was a Catholic high school in Panama, but which in retrospect, it would have been great to go there and really get immersed in Spanish because I never actually learned Spanish living in Panama.

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I you know, I could speak words. I could say Agua, you know, I'm thirsty. Tango. So they didn't teach it at the ST Mary's. They didn't really teach it at same areas that I recall. I could be wrong. And in in later in high school they did teach it.

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I took Spanish in high school, and, you know, I I learned enough just to get by. It wasn't until later in college, and I took some classes and learned a lot more. I went back to Panama and had a great time, you know, speaking because, you know, it was just it was more in tune to it that more attuned to the culture, going back.

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I could appreciate it more than growing up there, you know, just sort of growing up there. You you didn't really have any need to learn Spanish. We had English speaking pretty much English speaking maids. E was another thing. We had maids growing up, you know, housekeepers, usually just for the day.

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But later we had some living part time living, you know, maids who they would clean and cook and, you know, generally take care of us while her parents worked. So yeah, the Catholic school, it was different. It was It was much more disciplined, I think, than the public schools there are much more academically.

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I think they were probably on a par. That was my next question. Other other people have spoken very highly of the teachers at the public school. Yeah, I wonder if it was. Yeah. Yeah, the academic standards were pretty high, and I didn't have any trouble transitioning to the public school, but, um, yeah, we would, uh, march through town to assemblies.

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The church was maybe a quarter of a mile away. So we line up march through town, you know, school uniforms. Yeah. School uniforms. Yeah. Yeah, I guess there was, Ah, little hint of always, always that wondering, G what's it like to be out free in the public school world?

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You know, because we're so constrained, you know, with the nuns. But I had some really good teachers that I liked a lot. And then I had some that were just They seem to have a chip on their shoulder in sure What the Franciscans, I think, you know, because they had to wear those wool heavy black wool dresses, you know?

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Then then then the, uh, Sisters of Mercy came down from New York, and, well, someone was saying They complained that all the kids were picking up New York accents, but they wore white lightweight cotton dresses, so they were a little nicer. Yeah. So the high school you went to what Karan do Junior high school, which was a new school, I guess at that time was maybe only a year or two old.

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They had built a big geodesic dome for the the cafeteria auditorium, brand new school. And, uh, that was that was kind of like getting out into the real world, you know? Did you have trouble breaking into sort of this already? You already knew that, people. Yeah, sure.

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You know when school is out, your uniform was off. You know, there was part of the gang. The Yeah, you know, as kids you don't you don't inquire much about, you know, faith. So if you had a Jewish friend we never talked about, you know, Judaism are Protestantism.

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You know, the differences or whatever it was just, you know, something you had to do on Sunday? Pretty much for us. It was every day because it was church. But it just the community became much larger at that point because you were part of that larger group, you know, you were part of of of you had more friends from or town sites because there were There was Balbo.

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There was Diablo, Los Rios. Karun, do the military, um, and some Panamanians at that point. And so you just made more friends. You have more connections, and and you you just, you know, got more of a sense of how your community work to the gangs were you know who the the you know, the tough kids were and who the bookish kids were in.

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Where do I fit into this world at that time? That's what's happening to you anyway. Sure, sure. Absolutely. It's not that much. Yeah, you know, just kind of finding your way. And, um, at that time I started playing guitar. Well, I started when I was 13.

00:31:56.550 - 00:32:19.970

Yeah, What age we talk about here? 13, 14, 19, 68th grade 65. Yeah. Yeah. I remember writing letters in I guess 7th and 8th grade, uh, to the GIs in Vietnam, you know, just support letters. Yeah, we're proud of you for, you know, saving us from communism and that kind of stuff.

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Now, how much? Um, living in the canal zone. And of course, you mentioned Vietnam. But how much were you aware of what was going on? So we're talking about 1963 64. I was talking a lot of change. You know, a lot of events in the United States.

00:32:36.040 - 00:33:03.950

Larger civil rights, Vietnam. How much way were pretty aware of of all of that, Especially at that time being in high school, you know, in 68 and my dad died in 68 so that had a big impact on me. I was 16, and I think I was just kind of, ah, loss for a personal hero or role model at that point.

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And, uh, you know, way had gotten life for Saturday evening Post Life magazine, National Geographic. And I remember just reading all those articles and seeing the pictures of the guys who died that week. You know, there'd be a two page spread or three, you know, 120 pictures.

00:33:29.790 - 00:33:58.680

And just looking at that time. Yeah, you know. And our news outlet was mainly the armed forces radio and television service later, Caribbean Forces Network and Southern Command Network after that and, you know, it was limited. But even even then, which is surprising the nightly news had the footage of Vietnam coverage from Vietnam.

00:34:00.840 - 00:34:28.770

I think as a rule, the community was pretty patriotic. Um, I was in the Boy Scouts are, uh church sponsored the truth. And, you know, it was all kids I had grown up with. You know, maybe maybe a dozen of us were in the Boy Scouts, and we had a couple of our scout masters were in the military.

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One was a PFC. Steve Lieber. Another guy. Pete Hanlon. Um, it was in the navy, and, uh, Pete had access to ah, landing craft. I guess his job was to pilot this landing craft. Thio do support missions to the There was some kind of a radar station on Tebogo Island just off the coast.

00:34:51.980 - 00:35:09.040

And, um so he had shuttled back and forth. And so you take us out on a camping trip. We camped out on Tebogo we camped in the Perlas Islands like that anyway, so we had some involvement with the military. My sister was a couple years older.

00:35:09.040 - 00:35:30.770

She dated a couple of guys in the army. Um, I don't know how they met, even unless I don't know how they got together. Well, I know my sister. Soldiers will find a way Soldiers will find a way. Yeah. At that point, there was much more interaction.

00:35:31.240 - 00:35:54.270

We're talking 68 69. Um, just from from the local hangouts. You know, parades, look, parades. The army was always in the parade, the Fourth of July Parade Veterans Day parade. And as kids, you know, we're like, Oh, wow. You know, check this out in the school.

00:35:54.280 - 00:36:19.670

You know, uh, they did a lot of training down there. The military for Vietnam on and our house was right on the approached all Albert Air Force base. Um, I used to fly you to flights out of there. I think to Cuba. I'm not sure exactly where, but they take off in the morning and then come back at dusk.

00:36:20.130 - 00:36:45.190

And there was, uh I guess they dio helicopter training because there'd be these. You know eight Huey's would take off, fly off. They fly off to the West Bank way were out there one night and, uh, they had some kind of exercise going on. You always were flying over, and, uh, and then they'd come back, you know?

00:36:45.200 - 00:37:12.120

So you know, we were aware of that All that was going on in addition to the news on, uh um, I guess around about that Time way started having more friends who were in the military interacting with them or on social social basis and the guys that were on route to Vietnam or were in the canal zone and glad to be there instead of Vietnam, you know?

00:37:14.230 - 00:37:29.070

So, actually, the YouTube, uh, story remind, you know, kind of reminds me of a question, and I asked just the preface is a little bit, you know, a couple of people I've talked to actually quite a bit older than you. And so they'll have a lot of stories about how World War two affected the canal zone.

00:37:29.080 - 00:37:49.580

So now I'm thinking, um, were you should be old enough by this point to be aware of. For example, the Cuban missile crisis, which is quite close to you. In a way, I e remember. Remember that? What? How what affected it have way? We're all totally paranoid, you know, sort of like the Russians were kind of which.

00:37:49.580 - 00:38:10.670

I guess that's what it was all way. Weren't that far away? I mean, I am. It was a lot closer, but but still, I can recall, Um, so maybe it was I know there was a coup. There was several coups. I think one was in 59 was 59 in Panama, In Panama?

00:38:10.670 - 00:38:36.960

Yeah, in Panama. And, um, it might have been the later one, which I think was 64 where the rumor was there were Cuban guerrillas up in Cherokee Province next to Costa Rica had infiltrated. And, uh, you know, it was a very real threat. And, you know, it was to be feared and opposed.

00:38:36.960 - 00:38:54.940

And, you know, as kids were like, Oh, whatever. That's sort of like okay, you know, I understand. Because, you know, the Cold War was all the duck and cover stuff. Thio would have air raid drills and would run down to the garage and, you know, watching the Sputnik, you know, we had a black and white TV.

00:38:54.950 - 00:39:15.800

And, you know, I had a little model of the whatever that first Rocket Waas that launched a John Glenn around his first orbit. You know, that was all all big stuff for us. And then, you know, way were, like, super super proud to be Americans, you know?

00:39:15.810 - 00:39:38.960

You know, second in space or whatever it waas A. Yeah, but by the time the Vietnam War came along, one of my best friends was in the ROTC and, uh, have to laugh because I can't talk about all the story. Well, you know, share what you want.

00:39:38.970 - 00:39:56.740

But he was like we called him to general because he was like the chief, whatever his rank waas. You know, he was up there in the ROTC. He had the saber and would, you know, command the ROTC brigade Now, Is this in high school or high school?

00:39:56.750 - 00:40:27.360

Bobbo High school at that time, and he later had a career. I think he retired as a major or maybe a colonel And I'm was stationed for many years in Germany, So he was on the front line. Had anything happened, he would have been, um but he took a They did some kind of training at the Special Forces training camp on the Atlantic side.

00:40:27.370 - 00:40:45.450

I'm not sure where that was Ingratitude or somewhere over there Fort Gulick Special Warfare Training Center or whatever it was. And, you know, he talked about Yeah, you know, they had this mock up Vietnamese village thatched huts and stuff like that, And we had to go over there and, you know, do this thing.

00:40:45.460 - 00:41:06.980

This this training and, you know, way were aware of the School of the Americas, you know, training the counterinsurgency forces for all of Latin America. We had no idea what was going on there. And, you know, later we find out now sort of that some of it was pretty nefarious, you know?

00:41:06.990 - 00:41:40.670

And, uh, how does that affect your memories of that time period? Now that you found out that it doesn't really, uh, change my experience at all? Um, yeah. You know, um, we were pretty much happy Go lucky on several friends of mine. My first band, I had a band in junior high school, so we play the local school dances and a couple of the guys were Let's say maybe 2345 years older.

00:41:40.680 - 00:42:07.080

Uh, and they pretty much all went into the military. Remember Curtis? Seriously? It was in the Air Force. In fact, he might have even been in the Air Force at that time. But he was from Karen Do, Mike Kashani and Nelson Barreiro. They were like our three singers.

00:42:07.090 - 00:42:28.310

Eso we had this band guitar, two guitars, maybe bass drums and maybe a keyboard at one time or another. And these three upfront singers, you know, with the white T shirts, rolled up sleeves, black jeans singing the monkeys. And, you know, Paul Revere and the Raiders What you know.

00:42:29.000 - 00:42:56.650

And we would play at the local N C o clubs. Uh, V F W the American Legion. So we would be playing for these lifers, these master sergeants who were tough old crackers, you know? And I think, Well, I know there was some resentment. E could tell you that in 1960 it could have been 67.

00:42:56.650 - 00:43:19.140

Even I got it in my head to take a army shirt cut off the sleeves and right POW on the back and a black marker, and from one of the car magazines like, uh, Model car magazine in the back. They always had ads for, you know, plastic German helmets and stuff like that.

00:43:19.150 - 00:43:37.370

You know, the Iron Cross and all that stuff is big. So I got this plastic German helmet and we walked into a local club house. This was actually in the zone and in Diablo clubhouse one night after we played at a teen club or ensco club or something, walked in back to get some fries.

00:43:37.370 - 00:44:12.470

And there are these two or three master sergeants sitting at a table and they wanted to kick my ass E I was, like, 15 and they were steamed. Rightly so. I mean, here's this young kid who's, you know, knows nothing about the war that they're coming back from or going Thio or have seen, you know and has no respect for them, which we didn't really you know, I mean, because we didn't know better.

00:44:12.480 - 00:44:29.360

E mean at that age. Another couple of years, I would have known better and maybe would have been deferential. Or maybe not. But at that point it was told the innocent and fortunately we had these older guys there that we're able to stand between us and say, you know, you better take that shirt off, Steve.

00:44:29.370 - 00:44:53.300

You know it really pissing these guys off. And so those guys going into the service, I didn't know too many personally that went to Vietnam. Um, and one, I didn't know you went to Vietnam until years later, and we talked about he told me about his experiences going, you know, illegally into Cambodia and conducting covert operations and stuff like that.

00:44:53.790 - 00:45:11.310

He was still very proud of that. Patriotic about it, you know? And I, on the other hand, um, was glad that I didn't get called up. I had a high draft number. I think it was 2 85 or something like that. Whereas a couple of my friends got drafted and actually got stationed in the zone.

00:45:11.890 - 00:45:27.950

And one of them got the job as the L. C M driver doing that support run, and he lived at home. Other one, I think, lived at home for a while, too, And he was stationed Fort Amador, and my mom saw him out there cleaning up mangoes under the mango tree on the golf course.

00:45:27.950 - 00:45:51.600

You know, one day I had a picture of out of life magazine of some drill sergeant. They had an article on the Marines, which I read on boot camp. And this was maybe late 68 or something and freaked me out. Totally terrified. I thought, This is not for me.

00:45:51.610 - 00:46:12.570

I tack that picture up on my bookcase. And I had acquired a bayonet, a small bayonet in the course of my boy scouts, you know? And I took the bayonet, stuck it and the guy's forehead. And so that was you know, you walk into my bedroom, you know, in addition to all the other crap that you have hanging around, you know, Jimi Hendrix posters.

00:46:12.570 - 00:46:30.700

And there was this picture of the drill sergeant with the bayonet. You know, on, uh, you know, had I been called up? I don't know if I would have gone or not. I just don't know. But, you know, we had guys that let's say they would run afoul of the law in one way or another.

00:46:32.480 - 00:46:54.560

Army guys, friends of ours, they would get their heads shaved. If they were arrested in Panama, they would take them in, shave their heads, they call the Panamanians shave their heads. Panna means would instantly shave their heads on called Coco below. Uh, they would get Cento Special Forces tree.

00:46:54.570 - 00:47:27.360

That's their punishment, you know which. You know. So, uh, you know, the counterculture was was was really taking off late 68 69 70 71. Uh, you know, just like it was in the States, you know, we had a big piece march. I think I don't remember exactly what Maybe it was 1970 and we all were these black armbands, and we did a candlelight procession, I think from LA Boca to the center of town.

00:47:27.370 - 00:47:50.110

Balboa. Yeah. Uh, now, how did that go over? Because, as you said before and what I've gathered from other people is a very patriotic community. Yeah, well, it was It was tough. It was tough for a lot of people, you know, At that time it was This was like the hippie days and the drug culture and all of that, and there were a lot of problems there.

00:47:50.110 - 00:48:16.960

There was a lot of a lot of involvement with that that I won't go into. Uh, but it caused a lot of families a lot of a lot of problems beyond, you know, some kids went over the edge and never recovered. Others died, you know? So it's almost like it took that to expose, sort of.

00:48:16.960 - 00:48:45.450

Ah, um, a facade, you know, of life being perfect, which we all sort of knew it wasn't. And, you know, I mean, we know life is not perfect. People have problems because we're people and we live together and you know it. Z In my family, especially, it was sort of like, Well, we don't talk about those things.

00:48:45.450 - 00:49:01.130

We don't talk about those problems and, you know, that never helped him get any better. You know, if if someone had a mental illness or a deformity, I had an aunt I There was 11 kids in my family. Um, you had 10 brothers and sisters? No, in my mom's.

00:49:01.140 - 00:49:24.260

Your mom's my mom's family. Aunt Rita, I think was the baby. And she was mentally handicapped and physically handicapped. And I never knew I had a knot. Rita, until I was 16 and she died, I think two days before my dad died. Bond. That's sort of when I found out I had a knot.

00:49:24.260 - 00:49:42.990

Rita I never met her. And where was she? She was in cortisol, which was the, uh, mental hospital and in the zone in the zone. Yeah, of course. I'll mental hospital. I guess I'm not sure exactly what they called it, but she was there. And, you know, my grandfather used to go visit her all the time.

00:49:43.570 - 00:50:00.700

My mother would go visit her. Never took me. I don't know if she didn't want me to know or or what, but how could I live to be 16 and not know I'm gonna Rita, that was maybe I knew, but it was never forefront of my consciousness, you know?

00:50:00.710 - 00:50:28.340

And, you know, because because there were other families that had kids with down syndrome who we're out in the neighborhood playing, you know, come over to my house. You know, it was Hey, Tony, what's going on? You know, way. No, something not right with you. But you're one of us, you know So but it just sort of seemed in my family, things were sort of covered up a little bit.

00:50:28.350 - 00:51:03.350

And, you know, later there, you know, they were There were other problems. You know, My dad, he he drank a lot. And I think that's because he was afraid because he had had heart attacks, you know? And just, I don't know, maybe maybe he had a lot of anxiety about that, you know, it was a way of coping, but the community there was an active police force and, of course, growing up, they all knew us.

00:51:03.350 - 00:51:21.880

And we all knew them. You know, I got I didn't get in trouble, But a bunch of us Fort Amador they had a coastal defenses built for World War One. They had these Siris of tunnels and gun emplacements on one of the islands out there. And one afternoon we said, Hey, let's go out to the bunkers and check it out.

00:51:21.880 - 00:51:38.540

So we went out and they had these steel gates at at sort of road level. And here was a hill, and inside the hill there was a long stairway, maybe a couple 100 ft long. Going up into the defense is in the middle of this hill.

00:51:38.550 - 00:51:52.660

Concrete and everything and the gates were never locked. So when we went, you know were 14 years old. Let's go check it out. You know, by the time we were probably smoking cigarettes, and I don't remember. We had a flashlight. It was pitch black in there.

00:51:52.670 - 00:52:08.090

And you could go from one end of the island. You could say, go around the top and go into one of these bunkers down into the tunnels and come out at the far end of the island, you know, without ever going out on the surface, or you could go out in any number.

00:52:08.090 - 00:52:26.370

One of interests is, you know, And so they had There was this room of electrical switches which probably powered, you know, some hoist for ammunition or something. And they had these wooden handles on, and I thought, I'll take a souvenir. So I unscrewed this wouldn't handle put into my pocket.

00:52:27.650 - 00:52:42.340

And, uh, I ended up keeping it, but the next thing we know, we see these flashlights coming up the stairs or something. Or either we were on our way out and the MPs had stopped their military police and, uh, wait, what are you guys doing? You know nothing.

00:52:42.340 - 00:53:00.550

We're just, you know, hanging out. You better come with us. So they took us down to Balboa Police station, you know? No evidence of any misdeeds or anything. But they knew we were 14 and up to no good CEO. They took us to the police station and took us in.

00:53:00.550 - 00:53:21.760

And Mr Philo, Dad of a good friend of mine and longtime friend of the family, was the desk sergeant that day. Oh, Steve Kerr. Todd. Oh, Oh, What's going on? You know, wear out in the bunkers and, you know, nosing around. And whenever you know Well, I better call your mom said call my mom and you know, it wasn't a big deal.

00:53:21.760 - 00:53:38.400

But the point was that we knew all the policemen, they knew us. They knew our parents. And in later years I talked to one of the detectives, Joe Grills. Um, at the time, you know, they would follow us around, you know, because let's just say we were up.

00:53:38.400 - 00:54:21.760

Thio. Uh huh. No good in, in a sense, were fully engaged in experiencing the counterculture. You know, when you're 16, 17, Max. Yeah, I mean, in Panama, it's sort of, let's say, when I was 15 or self, my mom and sister decided to go on a diet, so the doc put him on bends a dream and amphetamines, and they were bouncing off the walls and then had crashed and moody and bitchy fighting.

00:54:21.770 - 00:54:40.490

And I had no clue what's going on. I don't know, but we're on a diet on eso. My sister is like, let's say 16, 17. Then she gets to 18. It's counterculture. We know that we can just go out of the pharmacy and pick up whatever you want.

00:54:40.490 - 00:54:57.750

No prescription needed. And that's across the board. At 14, you could go down to the local bodega, the local liquor store, and pick up a ball around a bottle of whiskey. You know, which a lot of us did you. So, you know, you're talking about underage drinking.

00:54:57.750 - 00:55:24.460

You're talking about underage smoking, about underage, um, unregulated pharmaceutical use. And then other substances came online, and it all float freely. And so I was gonna say that later years Well, these guys would follow us around and all our escapades, and we recognize them when we saw them.

00:55:24.470 - 00:55:48.700

You know, you could you could recognize a police car a mile away on a marked or unmarked on. Uh, okay. He said, you know, we were just looking out for you way weren't out to get you were just looking out for you. And I get a little emotional thinking about it because, you know, we hated them so much for interfering in our affairs.

00:55:48.700 - 00:56:15.150

But, you know, some of us didn't get through it, so, you know, And I have to say, you know, my mom being the governor's secretary at the time, you know, we put her at great risk, but, you know, our antics. And so and it wasn't that she was clueless, but with my dad having passed, she was incapable of dealing with two kids that were that rebellious, you know, at the time.

00:56:15.830 - 00:56:53.240

And so, you know, way we're always respectful to authority, you know, to the adults, to the teachers and everything. And we didn't get in trouble at school. And, uh well, not much, anyway. No more than normal, you know, But, you know, we got through it, and, uh, but the military at that time, you know, all the things that were happening in the military in Vietnam, you know, guys coming back, um, addicted and whatever.

00:56:54.130 - 00:57:15.720

Hey, that all kind of funneled in a big current, You know, all the guys that would come down through the canal zone brought all the influences and substances from the States, you know? And so it was It was a kind of a strange time, in a way, because, you know, you were you were aware of all of that.

00:57:15.730 - 00:57:35.860

You know, movies like Apocalypse Now hadn't come out yet for another 10 or 15 years. But, you know, you could you could sort of see it happening. You could see that These, you know, young, 20 20 year olds. You know, we're in a strange world, you know, having to fight a war that was unpopular.

00:57:35.860 - 00:57:57.410

And, you know, they had come through the canal zone and experience this community of complete freedom. You know, as kids, we had the run of the place way could go anywhere we wanted in the country of Panama anywhere and a so long as we could get back to the zone.

00:57:57.420 - 00:58:19.930

It was like a game of tag. If you reach base, you're safe. Pretty much, you know, things started to unravel a little bit around 70 71. They sort of had I don't know, that they ever came to any, like like actual laws that if you were caught in Panama, you were prosecuted in Panama because it seemed there was always someone that would come and bail us out.

00:58:19.940 - 00:58:43.300

You know, if we got caught doing something illegal in Panama, how often did you get caught doing? I never did. Okay? My sister did. Someone pulled a string. A friend of mine did. Someone pulled the string. And, uh, either either nothing would be said or something serious would happen.

00:58:43.310 - 00:59:06.430

Sort of like like that If I mean, you might be deported. Your family might be asked to leave, You know, now again without yeah saying, get anywhere else that this will be the 25 years. Okay, You negotiate that. So But how big was this community of the counterculture?

00:59:06.440 - 00:59:30.500

How? How? If you had to characterize it, I'd say maybe of the kids I knew. Probably not that big, but I think 2000 and four year three year high school 2000, I'd say maybe there was a couple 100. So then how many of those families might have been deported for the E?

00:59:30.510 - 00:59:52.730

I don't even know if a family was actually sent out. I know some kids were okay, a small percentage of very small percentage of that. But it was I'm not even sure. I guess I'm sure there was a stigma. You know, among well, it was just hard.

00:59:52.730 - 01:00:13.450

Because if it's, let's say you're a high level government position there, and your kid is, you know, bucking the system and your jobs on the line, you know? So it Z, you know, wasn't good for appearance. You know, uh, it wasn't that good for us. In retrospect, although we did have a good time.

01:00:13.410 - 01:00:38.750

Mhm and, uh, you know, just without any regulation without any, um, restraints. Mm. You know, some kids couldn't handle it. I just I just notice it's about quarter after 10. And I wanted So we're there will be somebody in here about 10. 30 on dawn, um, or so political level.

01:00:39.210 - 01:00:57.570

Eso you were in high school at a very interesting time for the pain of the canal relative to the local Panamanians. I believe in 1964 uh, was the protests about the flag and everything like that. And I'm wondering, given your age during that time period where you were What?

01:00:57.580 - 01:01:15.110

How you experienced all that well have to to Pretty strong memories of that one is that, uh I wasn't present at the big confrontation at the I'm doing the math right. You're still in junior high. The confrontation at the high school. I'm just doing my place.

01:01:15.130 - 01:01:54.130

You went to high school, but our neighbor, one of our our next door neighbor, we lived in a duplex in our duplex neighbor. I recall him sitting out, and he had a jeep, and I believe he had a shotgun. His jeep and I could be wrong in a I think you're still around Chris Sky, um, saying, Hey, they're not coming coming down the street, you know, because, you know, I mean, it's sort of like, Okay, the borders a mile away and they're coming on Moss.

01:01:54.140 - 01:02:15.230

There's a huge crowd coming. You know, we got to defend ourselves, you know, get your musket. You know that down the hatches. And so it was tense that way. And our neighbor next door was a policeman at Houston. Hey. Came down and gave us a 45 and a box of bullets.

01:02:15.240 - 01:02:31.390

Hay said, you know, you lock your door and you take this gun. Anyone comes through that door, you pull the trigger. You don't have to worry about ending it, you know? So that's how tense it was. It was sort of like your will be fighting for your life.

01:02:31.400 - 01:03:04.900

That was the vibe. The reality I don't think was anywhere near that. But you know it for for me. In retrospect, that was a long time coming. There should have been a Panamanian flag there all along. You know, it's sort of, you know, I consider myself patriotic in the way that, you know, when my son goes, uh, we go to baseball game, I take my hat off and put my hand over my heart when we sing the national anthem.

01:03:05.150 - 01:03:24.560

But I'm aware of, you know, the gray areas in our history too, you know, And and the dark side, which, you know, we never learned about growing up. And now my kid in history class, he learns about the trail of tears. You know, I was never told about the trail of tears.

01:03:24.560 - 01:03:43.110

I was never told about genocide of the native peoples, you know, and so that kind of stuff. And now I see it all in a different light and, you know, the world's a different place to me now, so I'm not a, you know, wild flag waver, you know, And it's just a different perspective.

01:03:44.700 - 01:04:01.090

Um, the canal zone was unique in that way. It was Teddy Roosevelt. Stamp on it. You know, it's like, this is manifest destiny. This is what we did. You recognize that when you were there or that only comes later? Maybe you moved out? Well, it came really came later when I moved out.

01:04:01.100 - 01:04:27.340

You know what? Growing up, it was just a idyllic situation. We didn't have crime way Didn't have poverty way. Didn't you know, on the surface, it was just a the Swiss clock, you know, And you know later you realize Well, okay, but there's people involved in this, and so that's the rub.

01:04:27.340 - 01:04:54.640

You know, people have issues, you know, nobody's perfect and transitions have to happen. In 1979 I went back for the ceremony. Sort of. The party really is what's gonna be a party, because the ceremony, I think happened and there was one big party out it Diablo Yacht Club where some friends of mine were playing and I got up and jammed with them.

01:04:54.640 - 01:05:11.210

And it's just a big party. A bunch of us and my Uncle Pat was taking a ship through the canal as it came by. He gave a long honk on the horn as he passed the party. And, uh, you know, for me, that was all supposed to happen.

01:05:11.210 - 01:05:25.960

That that was the right thing to do. And I'm a big fan of Jimmy Carter, you know? Anyway, which puts me at odds with most of my relatives on, uh, you know, my mom had one of those calendars with the green gremlin giving the finger, you know, whatever it was.

01:05:25.960 - 01:05:53.070

Thanks, Jimmy, for nothing. Or, you know, something to that effect. Um, but, you know, I walked by the supply division and there was, like, a mock gravestone in the display window saying, Here lies the body of, you know, building 6 14 or whatever it waas rest in peace, you know, because you know, a lot of people lost their jobs, you know, there was a lot of anxiety, and I was got long gone by then.

01:05:53.080 - 01:06:16.980

And so my perspective, it had had already changed. But, you know, it was ah a good thing at some friends stayed on. And, you know, I have to admire that. I went back in 95 with my wife, a friend of mine, Jim Dancer worked on Miraflores Locks and took us on a tour.

01:06:16.980 - 01:06:52.580

Let my wife locker ship through in the control tower, and, um, it was it was great to see him interacting with his crew, who were, um, you know, West Indian, um, Heritage Way could all talk Beijing on, uh, anyway, he told me that they had a big carnival that year, and there was a bridge that connects the two sides of the locks.

01:06:52.590 - 01:07:11.490

Used to be an alternative to the ferry before the Thatcher Ferry Bridge was built in 62. Used to take the ferry across from the East Bank to the West Bank to go up to the interior Panama. So this bridge was an alternative at Fort Clayton. The bridge had been using years rusted shut.

01:07:12.280 - 01:07:26.130

So he had to go dig out the plans, and he and his crew went through and took it all apart, put it all back together, got it working because there was gonna be so much traffic for this carnival. They needed the overflow on, and he was really proud of that.

01:07:26.130 - 01:07:50.650

And I was too, you know, it's like, Wow, you know that Z That's the spirit that made the canal a great place, A great place to work. You know, Thio achieve something like that that would last that long. It's still function, you know, precisely and accurately when it needed thio and, you know, all through the years, the innovations in navigation or whatever.

01:07:50.660 - 01:08:06.350

You know, even growing up, you know, we used to marvel at it, you know, I'd see that big ship coming through and I go Tang, you know, that's pretty cool. Pretty cool. You know, tell my friends. Yeah. I grew up in Panama. Panama Canal. Oh, yeah, that's you know, that's pretty awesome, you know?

01:08:06.350 - 01:08:24.080

What's it like? Well, it was great. It was great living there, You know, a great place to grow up. And, uh, so tell me a little bit about why you left. Well, I was an apprentice heavy equipment operator out of high school, you know, me and a bunch of friends.

01:08:24.080 - 01:09:01.370

We joined the apprentice program and, uh, had a job with the maintenance division operating cranes and assorted other heavy equipment. And there's a year probationary period. And so this is 19 71. And that whole counterculture thing was still peaking. And I was hanging out with the wrong crowd.

01:09:01.380 - 01:09:34.780

I'll say it that way. And so that was essentially the reason, um, details around that. And so I got called up to the, uh I guess it was some colonel, maybe the the deputy chief of the maintenance division or something one day. And it was one of those conversations.

01:09:34.780 - 01:09:56.610

Today's the first day of the rest of your life, and I was like, Oh, that's that day is it way? Think it's better that you move on, you know, And it will just say termination during probation. No specifics, because I had performed well, well, pretty well, as as an apprentice int.

01:09:57.070 - 01:10:18.020

And so that was it. Um, I didn't want to leave. It was it was sort of like Okay, now what am I gonna do? My sister had already gone to the state. She was in Florida going to college. And so I moved in with a friend in Panama, and I think we still played a couple of gigs in the band I was in, but, uh, I didn't find any work there.

01:10:18.020 - 01:10:45.360

I wasn't really looking for work. And so I kind of followed my sister up to Florida, ended up following my parents out to California, and then life. Did you go to college later? Yeah, I went to Community College in 75. I studied music and commercial music and ended up getting a job in music preparation, which is I've been doing for 30 years now.

01:10:45.370 - 01:11:03.280

What is music preparation? Preparation is preparing music for performance. So if you were a composer and you composed a piece, let's say you're John Williams and you wrote the score to Star Wars. He's one of our clients, so you'd give that to an orchestrator who would then orchestrated for the band that's going to play it.

01:11:03.760 - 01:11:21.960

He would give that to us, and we prepare the individual parts for each musician in the orchestra, should get it to the stage, get it on the stand, have enough experience with music to actually understand what you're talking about. Yeah, a lot of people don't. It's one of those behind the scenes, you know, Post post, uh, production.

01:11:21.960 - 01:11:44.250

So with all the, you know, unspecified, you know, troubles that you had, Um you still are very nostalgic and you come to the reunion and you're you're so there's certainly no. Yeah, well, there's relationships. I mean, you know, e don't know. I don't even know if it's probably not canals on specific, but I think to a large extent, it is only because you have so many generations.

01:11:44.250 - 01:12:11.340

You know, I can't remember When I came to my first reunion, it was in the, you know, the mid seventies. They were having him in ST Pete. And I just remember seeing all these people that I grew up with, all my mom's friends, you know, my dad's friends and it was kind of a very I don't know, uh, kind of a warm, fuzzy feeling, you know, kind of thing.

01:12:11.350 - 01:12:38.170

Then, over the years, you know, I've only been about four or five, and, uh, you know, you reconnect with people. Sometimes, you know, there's people that you see him and change. You know, if that guy was wild and crazy back then, he still is, you know, whereas other people have settled down, raise families, but you still have that connection of those those times that you spent together down there And that's a connecting point.

01:12:39.450 - 01:13:06.030

And from there you Yeah, either stay connected Or don't you know, on DSO there's a few people that have stayed connected with when I see him. Now we talk about what we did then and we talk about what's going on now where some people are still stuck back then they don't want to come to the reunion because they don't wanna know about changes that if they don't wanna go back to Panama because it's not the same as I remember it, you know, for me I love going back to Panama.

01:13:06.040 - 01:13:20.010

How do you go back? Not frequently at all. I've only been back, I think maybe four times in the 30 years since I left. So, you know? Yeah. Now I've got two kids. It's a little more challenging, but we're gonna go down maybe Christmas or something.

01:13:20.020 - 01:13:39.350

You know, I still have some friends down there, and my mom still has friends down there, and she's in her eighties, you know, I go down and visit her friends, you know, you stop on the roadside and get a fresh coconut. You know you can have that experience in Mexico, but if you grew up in Panama, it's even better.

01:13:39.360 - 01:13:57.380

You know, you go back, and as an adult, I can appreciate the culture more. You know, when When people you call them on the phone and they say, Oh, yeah, Come on by They stop everything for you to come by, you know, appear. Everybody's too busy, you know?

01:13:57.850 - 01:14:12.370

I'll pencil you in, you know, next month. So Well, that's great. Thank you very much. I see the next people are coming in, so thank you very much for you. Let me go ahead and stop this.