00:00:00.340 - 00:00:16.090

uh, my name is Matthew White. We're here with the Samuel Procter Oral history program. The Panama Canal Re union. Um, it's July 3rd, approximately 10. 30 and we're here with Rust. Bowen, Onda. We haven't talked about anything yet. Other interviewers they start telling stories as soon as they go in the room.

00:00:16.090 - 00:00:34.870

But I know absolutely nothing about you, Mr Bowen. So why don't you just give me a brief outline of who you are and what your connection is to the Panama Canal Zone? Okay. Um, well, it was born in Panama 1951 and Khan Panama in Gorgas Hospital.

00:00:35.670 - 00:01:10.110

And I don't know a lot of details about how my family ended up in Canada, But what I can tell you is on my mother's side. Um, my grandfather was from Delaware and don't know the circumstances, really, That led him to go down to Panama, But he got arrived in Panama just a few months after the construction of the canal has been completed and work as electrician's.

00:01:11.540 - 00:01:37.170

And, uh, my grandmother came from New Orleans again. I don't know the circumstances that led her toe, go down to Panama, and they got married in Panama. Yeah. Now, my father's side. My grandfather was originally from California. Went to New York. That's where my father was born in New York.

00:01:37.840 - 00:02:01.900

And, uh, grandfather, grandmother went, went down to Panama. He loved it. She did on she ended up, ended up splitting. She always lived in New York, and he lived down in Panama. And then my father actually went back and forth between New York and Panama and and ended up staying in Panama with my grandfather.

00:02:01.910 - 00:02:32.930

It was a machinist. Same thing. He got down to Panama not too long after the canal been constructed and okay. Lived in a ball boy on the Pacific side and only lived in two different houses. Lived in the gavlin area until the time I was 12, then moved to LA Boca, which was really close to the mouth of the canal on live there until I was 20.

00:02:33.740 - 00:02:57.850

Yeah, When to a parochial school. Pursue eighth grade called ST Mary's. Yeah, when you were 20. No. Yeah. Parochial school, 1 to 8. Okay. Went into the public school system, Went to Bob. Oh, high school. Andi. I went to Canal Zone Junior college for a couple of years before I transferred to the University of Florida in Gainesville.

00:02:58.240 - 00:03:30.170

And, you know, it was kind of interesting. I was traveling with some business associates, and we were just kind of talking about, you know, where some of the most thing that you cherish the most in terms of your background. Basically, I just told them, growing up in Panama, experiences that I had growing up there is a za kid, things that really stick out of my mind.

00:03:30.640 - 00:04:10.360

Um, one of my friends that happens to be here today. I've known since I was two years old. His father was the director of the meteorological hydrographic branch of the Panama Canal. His job basically was kind of like the water resource is management division, and they had thio monitor the flow of the rivers coming into the into the gateau in lake, which formed the That could help basically make sure that there was the proper water balance in running the canal.

00:04:11.330 - 00:04:45.600

But he was a very, um let's say adventurous outdoors. It uh, now, is this your friend or your friends and my friends Father. Okay. And, uh, right. E just thought that he was an amazing man. His name was Ted Hunter. And E guess was earliest when we were about eight years old, he would take us up into the rainforest on to the main river, which they damned to create the gateau, like all the shadows.

00:04:45.610 - 00:05:05.970

Just right. We're back way would take us up there for the weekend. Way would camp along the banks of the Shockers River and a Z got older. You would take a group of us. They're used three or four. Uh, we're friends, and we would go up for the weekend.

00:05:07.140 - 00:05:33.920

And then over the years, we actually built a encampment. Ted Jr myself. We go, you know, into the river. They had rapids. Uh, we get river Rock out of there and, uh, drag him up the bank. And over several weekends, Mr Henner and he had some other friends when mix up concrete.

00:05:33.930 - 00:06:03.190

And we made a big concrete slab. Wow. And he used, I think, uh, drilling rod and made steel posts. And then we made a thatched roof, and then we would string our jungle hammocks from each one of the posts, and that's where we slept at night and just had a lot of great experiences camping out there in the rain forests.

00:06:03.190 - 00:06:25.630

It was. Now what did you do? Why did you hunt? Did you weigh? Swam? And there were Like I said, there were pretty good rapids. And I remember right across from our encampment at the base of these rapids, there was a large rock, and we have it swim across river.

00:06:25.720 - 00:06:50.270

It's a good size river. And we would jump off that rock at the base of Rapids And there was a real strong Eddie that would just take you in a circle behind the rock again. So you just kind of a do loop, just, you know, So, you know, we swam and, um, fished a little bit, mainly just hung out, you know, swam and explored up and down the banks of the river.

00:06:50.740 - 00:07:11.690

So a lot of wildlife, it was way would see some of the rain forest Indians on the Mbarara Indians and a lot of wildlife. Large iguanas. They had another lizard there. I don't know why they call them that. Well, I do. I do know why they call them is the Jesus Christ lizard.

00:07:11.700 - 00:07:33.710

Because they would run across the water. They get a good head of steam on the bank, and then they would just run right across the river. On the surface, they had big, webbed feet, and it was just It was incredible that night. You know how many stars you could see?

00:07:33.720 - 00:08:04.870

Because it was so dark. I remember one time where we could actually see a satellite. Went across a tonight. What was this? This was in the Yes, that was around in the late sixties. Yeah, and yeah, I remember one time we were up there and I was on the rock, and a friend Ted said, Well, I'm gonna go back across the river.

00:08:05.340 - 00:08:28.350

So he swam across and, you know, the current would take you downstream a little bit. E saw him over on the other side of the on the river and the river there, I guess at that point was maybe I mean, 30 or 40 yards wide. And, you know, I saw I looked over and I saw Ted jumping up and down, waving his arms.

00:08:28.730 - 00:08:48.170

He was pointing upstream. I looked up in yourself. Flash flood coming down the river. So wall of water is about a couple of feet high, had a lot of sticks and logs in it because there's a lot of rain watershed, and it was just concentrate and create a flash flood.

00:08:49.140 - 00:09:25.330

So, um, you know, looking back on it, it could have been a mistake. But I decided to do it. I dove in and tried to get across the river, and it hit me when I got probably about two thirds away on Ted. Fortunately, ran and got his dad, uh, Ted senior and some of the other guys that were made a chain and got me as I was going by on, uh, it was a good thing, because just directly downstream the river just slammed into a rock and then went to the went to the left.

00:09:25.330 - 00:09:48.720

So that was like, the first time Mr Hunter saved my life, he actually saved me again. The other links in the chain. Yeah, right, Right. But that that flood And then it started to rain later that day, and the water level came up so high that it actually flooded the our little encampment way.

00:09:48.720 - 00:10:19.600

Had to take our jungle hammocks and go up into the jungle. But the river probably came up, I would say 15 or 20 ft. We had to go well up into the, uh in the jungle. And it was at that time it was dark. Eso, you know, here we are little kids, you know, climbing up in there at night, you know, and having a string up or jungle hammocks and, uh, the river it took so long Thio subside.

00:10:19.600 - 00:10:40.340

We were up there until Tuesday. And, of course, this is before the age of cell phones. And sure, So, you know, my parents were wondering where a guard, because, you know, normally we'd be back on Sunday afternoon. Another time we were up there and it was just drizzling the whole weekend.

00:10:40.340 - 00:11:00.080

And there were, like, four of us for kids and Mr Owner Way were getting bummed out. So tense is Well, look, let's go across the river and climb up the mountain here. Yeah, okay. So we're, uh we're just going. I mean, it seemed like it was about a 50% incline.

00:11:00.080 - 00:11:17.910

Of course, it wasn't that much, but I mean, it just seemed like we were going straight up climbing up to the vines and whatnot, and we got a pretty high and we were taking a break. And so we're just sitting there, you know, hanging on that binds and trees And what not?

00:11:17.910 - 00:11:40.070

And Ted was in front of me, and I looked down and there was a snake coiled up behind him. The guy was getting ready to strike him. E said, Hey, Mr Henner, there's a snake er is about ready to buy Teddy and, uh, Mr Enter just slid down on his but slid down the hill, got his machete and just got the head off the snake e.

00:11:40.070 - 00:12:02.800

I was like Indiana Jones. It was just amazing guy. Tremendous amount of respect for him, Uh, just really showed us a lot of adventures. A beloved shacks river. It's really a lot of fun. And, uh, yeah, I think it really I really even, uh, loved about growing.

00:12:02.810 - 00:12:25.000

Well, I got a little older in high school way got in the surfing? Yeah, that became a uh oh, that's right. When I guess surfing started in California and it found its way down Thio Panama, and it was probably a group of about 20 of us.

00:12:25.370 - 00:12:48.690

It really got into surfing. And, um, you know right around Balboa. E guess the way that shoreline was. You know, the, um, swells really didn't find your way into that part of the coastline. Really had to go up the coast further up the coast, towards Costa Rica, along the Pacific And before you get to some good surf spots.

00:12:49.500 - 00:13:17.290

And it started out where our parents would take us up there for the weekend place called Real Maher. And it was just a It was just a great, uh, great pastime. And we built a lot of really close friendships with all the kids that we used to serve and got to the point where a little bit older, I mean, we were still in high school in the summertime.

00:13:17.300 - 00:13:52.090

Our parents would take us up there and give us a $20 bill. We'll see you in two or three weeks way just camp out on the beach And, uh, it was just it was a blast. It was just a lot of good good memories surfing. Uh, then when we got old enough to drive way, started exploring a lot of different surf breaks and found a lot of really cool surf spots that you know, kids to still go to today and served.

00:13:52.090 - 00:14:26.110

But now they're all that whole coastline that stretch of coastline. It's probably about 20 or 30 miles. Uh, it's all built up now, Um, places called Coronado's A big resort on, you know, back then they were just little little villages, you know, dirt road villages. But it's all built up now, but, uh, we used to just kind of as the tide fluctuated, WAY would go to different spots because that in Panama, on the Pacific Coast, difference between high and low tides.

00:14:26.110 - 00:14:51.520

About 18 ft. Yeah, so you'll be surfing in one spot. And if the Thai got too high or too low than the ways when break right, you know, break most of the places that we serve for either, you know, Sam bottom or a rock grief. So, uh, time we get too low, then we'd go to a different spot, so we just kind of just got a dramatic existence.

00:14:51.520 - 00:15:14.920

Yeah, I just kind of migrated up and down the coast, you know, depending on what the tide was to go to the best surf spots. Sure. And one of the places that got discovered. We called it Malibu. It was out on Shaw made point. Big River called Sean Made river came out and created a really large sambar that went out into the ocean.

00:15:14.920 - 00:15:41.450

It was a really cool break the ways of break on the sandbar. But it was about, I think, about five miles from where you could drive down to the beach and you could only get out there in, uh, low tide. We're gonna expose enough of the sand so you get the hard packed sand so you could drive out there and we drive out there and and surf.

00:15:41.460 - 00:15:59.950

But if you wanted to get back that day yet in the tide came up, you had to wait toe tie. We go back down again so you could drive all the way back. You know, it's a six hour cycle, and, uh, I remember one time he went after ways were really big.

00:16:00.440 - 00:16:22.320

And, uh what? One of our friends, um, thought he could make it back. It was about mid type. Yeah, Volkswagen van And he was driving down the beach and didn't get very far. Wave came up, hit the the two wheels closest to the ocean undermined them a little bit.

00:16:22.320 - 00:16:40.920

And after about three or four waves, the van was on its side on the next, you know, it was just rolling in the side. He was out there trying to get in it to get his camera out. He left his camera in it, so that was probably one of about three or four vehicles that got lost to the ocean.

00:16:40.930 - 00:17:05.150

You know, surfers going out there and I just couldn't wait till low tide. Well, it was a great spot. Just sounds like a great service spot. It was really a neat place. E remember, one day we were out there in, uh, it was over Christmas vacation, and the waves were just perfect that day.

00:17:05.850 - 00:17:29.490

Um, as you were out in the water looking up, there's e forgot the name of the mountain. It was just a beautiful mountain. You look up in the that time of the year that be very strong offshore breezes, and it would just kind of come down that mountain made for good ways because, you know, the offshore breeze would hold the waves up.

00:17:29.640 - 00:17:50.260

Remember, You know that that day very vividly, because you drop in on a wave and you look at the wall the way it was just gold because it was, you know, it's sundown. And it was I was just fabulous. It was just some of the some of the scenery while we were surfing was just just incredible.

00:17:50.890 - 00:18:12.180

That was a great experience. Sounds like it now. You mentioned something earlier. Of course. Begs for a follow up question. When you said that that was the first time that that gentleman had saved your life. What was the second time? Way were coming back. And we're taking the Kayoko Kayoko.

00:18:12.180 - 00:18:48.110

So you know what are you going? I heard about the race the other day. I was right. Right now we're in the race, and anyway, we're getting the value goes out of the water. And we were standing on the dock and I decided to dive off into about 3 ft of water and hit the pavement, knocked myself out, and Mr Hunter was busy working on the boat, turned around, noticed I wasn't around, came out and dragged me out of the water.

00:18:48.110 - 00:19:10.040

So second time, you see? Yeah. So of the people I've been doing this for three days now. And of the people I've talked to your clearly, the one that has gotten out out of the zone on a regular basis. Uh, how I guess my question is, Then how did you interact with the local population?

00:19:10.050 - 00:19:41.930

Be they, you know, Indians. You mentioned running into the local Native Americans. And what was your What was your relationship with the locals? Well, um, no, the the Indians of in the along the Shockers River. Um, I remember there was one. His name was Tony, and, uh, he was the one that Mr Henner would commission Thio make Yukos okay And he would make the Yukos.

00:19:41.940 - 00:20:06.380

But, um, we never really aside from Mr Henner really communicated with them that much. It was just kind of intrigue, you know, as you went up the river, you know, looking at him, living along the banks of the of the river and their bow heels. But we never really stopped and talked to him.

00:20:06.390 - 00:20:36.660

What about when you're surfing trips with more of the Panamanians, Right? Right way. We used to You know, when we were camping out, we would either walk or hitchhike into the this town called San Carlos, and we'd go, There was a little place where they had a a little bakery in this in this hut, we would go in there and, uh, chat with the guy who made these sticky buns way go in there.

00:20:36.660 - 00:21:12.280

And I talked with him, and, uh, there was another restaurant, and that's when we started to learn how to speak Spanish, even though, you know, we were taken in high school, but that's when we really started using it. Uh, but it was things that, you know, stuck out was the particularly in the sixties and late sixties when the relations work that good with Panamanians between the US Panamanians, particularly the Guardia Nationale.

00:21:13.040 - 00:21:58.410

It was the police force for Panama nine. They just would seem like they took, uh, more than a few opportunities to give us a hard time. And, um so, for example, um, there was ah, checkpoint When when you were growing up. Ah, the Pan American highway from the canal zone up along the coast, there was a checkpoint in her hand that she had to go through, and it was really intimidating because they the checkpoint actually had like, a desk that was up at a higher elevation, like looking down onto the road and it always be two or three.

00:21:58.410 - 00:22:15.450

Guardia there And they would just seems like they just would relish and just making us stay there and just staring down at us, looking into the car like we had beer, whatever, you know. So we're always really scared that they were gonna grab us and throw us in jail or something, you know?

00:22:15.450 - 00:22:32.330

And they even had they had a law where you weren't allowed to drive without without a shirt on. And, uh, you know, it's hot. It's more sure, you know, wearing a shirt, you know, sometimes we just wouldn't think, and sometimes they would actually pull you over for that.

00:22:32.340 - 00:22:50.770

But I think that, you know, it just seemed like they took any opportunity to hassle us, you know, at the time. But didn't really I guess we really didn't, you know, other than just going to the stores and restaurants didn't really interact with him that much.

00:22:50.770 - 00:23:20.170

And in fact, at at that time there were only two Panamanians that got into surfing. And other than that, it was just the Americans that were surfing. Of course. Now it's It's not that way. There's a lot of Panamanian surfers. Um, you still, sir? Of every so often, e actually went thio.

00:23:20.540 - 00:23:40.990

Last time I went surfing in Panama was he was march of 08 e ended up leaving my surfboard down there. Have some friends, Ted, as a house and down there. So I left it there. But no, I don't serve that much anymore. Um, now, I'd like to back up a little bit on you.

00:23:40.990 - 00:24:00.130

Mentioned going to ST Mary's right now. That's not typical. Well of anybody, really. But I've heard great things about the Panamanian Animal zone school system. Teachers were great. The public schools were great. Tell me a little bit about what was like not to go to those for at least the first eight years.

00:24:00.140 - 00:24:28.250

Yeah, well, you know, when we first started, there was e think it was a Franciscan nuns. Uh, and they were dark brown habits. They with teachers. Don't tell me there wolf, but yeah, e. I don't know if that's what made him mean or not, but they really strict, you know, corporal punishment was the rule of the day used to hit us pretty regularly.

00:24:28.250 - 00:24:55.980

You know, if you got out of line and they were very intimidating. Yeah, I suspect I remember one. What was her name? Sister Adela had her for third grade, and she just struck fear in everybody because, you know, you talked her, did anything, you know, she would she would whack you over the hand, you know, with a ruler, and and you have to stick your hand out and she'd hit it.

00:24:55.990 - 00:25:17.360

And if you flinch, then she'd make you turn and should hit the back of your hand, which really hurt eso. And But after that, I think it was after third grade. A different order of nuns came aptly named the Sisters of Mercy. And they were just They were great.

00:25:17.370 - 00:25:42.520

You know, It was it was a really good school on. And I remember we would, uh he was once a month, we would all march up to the Catholic Church and go to Mass. And we had to wear uniforms with dark blue pants, white shirt and a blue plaid tie.

00:25:42.530 - 00:26:18.000

Bow tie on a clip on, or you have to tie clip on a clip on and, uh, and the girls wore the same blue plaid jumper dress. So we had to march up Thio ST Mary's Catholic Church. Thio go to Mass. And I remember because all the kids in the public schools, you know would be going by in the school bus and maybe yelling at us ST Mary's Ferries way We're going up there so you know, they always gonna make fun of us, but made some really good friends.

00:26:18.000 - 00:26:39.610

And there are people here in this re union that e went to ST Mary's with starting in kindergarten. One of the things I keep hearing is how cohesive the Panama Canal Zone, especially the Children did going to ST Mary's sexual part it all or, you know, a little bit, Uh, but then once you got in the high school that they kind of went away.

00:26:39.620 - 00:27:01.060

But it's funny. I mean, I still there is probably a group of about 20 of us that's still get together pretty regularly now that in a lot of them I've known, uh, I'm saying it's a four of them. I've known since son kindergarten, you know, in ST Mary.

00:27:01.060 - 00:27:24.890

So, um, I really value that having those friends, uh, and that we still get together. In fact, now we're getting together even more frequently. Probably once every three or four months on. And you all in the same areas. Well, some of them didn't I e no, from, uh, middle school.

00:27:25.280 - 00:27:58.520

High school. Okay, now, tell me about the in your childhood when you were there were your parents. Did they grow up with the canal zone? Yes. Okay. Now, let me just Of course, that also brings another question. Now, if they talked about their what was like for them to be a kid in the canal zone, can you think of any differences from I mean, you're talking the difference when I'm guessing the thirties and forties, fifties and sixties about that, So Well, you know, I really don't know what it was like for them as kids.

00:27:58.520 - 00:28:21.580

I mean, I remember looking at some of the photos when they were kids and they, you know, one of one of the things. I guess it was similar between our childhoods. Where way used to go up to the beach on the weekend and rent these houses right along the the Pacific.

00:28:21.940 - 00:28:48.840

And I remember seeing them as kids that those same places on. And it was just very, very resting. Just thank you. You know, wooden houses and they had running water. But that was basically it. No electricity. And I remember that going to some of the same places and there was one particular house in Gorgo.

00:28:48.840 - 00:29:12.750

No, it was just a beautiful spot on a cliff overlooking the the beach and same deal. You know all that, you know, it's just a really simple concrete floor house wood frame. And and my dad wasn't really the best lighting the kerosene lanterns and almost burned the house down board a couple of times.

00:29:12.750 - 00:29:43.600

But But I remember seeing them just going up to the beach. Same thing hanging out a weekend, going, swimming, bodysurfing, everything. That really, when they got older, Um, as young adults, um, they really ah, socialized at a pretty high level. There was a there was a couple of beer gardens.

00:29:43.610 - 00:30:07.060

One of them was called El Rancho, and they would go down there for dances. I mean, there would be probably 10 12 piece band playing, and all the women would be in long dresses and the men would be in white suits and just it was just seemed like they had a fabulous time.

00:30:07.070 - 00:30:34.700

You know, when they went out at night in to the old Rancho beer garden that's in Panama. Yeah, I was in Panama. It was probably about a couple blocks, you know, and from the border. Uh, it just seemed like they had really good time, you know, going to the night clubs and restaurants and yeah, yeah, the Rancho kind of It wasn't It wasn't that grandiose anymore.

00:30:34.710 - 00:30:53.800

It wasn't, You know, everybody didn't go down here with a suit and tie on like they did. You know, just what everything was Just seemed to be really formal. Uh, when they went out. For some reason, people got away from that. Yeah, we used to go down independent quite a bit.

00:30:54.840 - 00:31:23.380

Go to different clubs, restaurants, remember a za kid going out to dinner with my parents down there, and, uh, really good restaurants in Panama City. Way had a for a while. Way would go down. Thio. There was a Catholic cathedral called El Carmen, and we would go there right across the street from it was a great uh Italian restaurant called the Capri s.

00:31:23.380 - 00:31:49.770

So that was kind of became a tradition. We would do that at least once or twice a month down. Okay, so So you went to church in the Panama? Yeah, Well, either it's most often we went to ST Mary's, which was in the canal zone, and that that same churches where my grandparent's, my parents and my sister were married in ST Mary's.

00:31:50.840 - 00:32:16.540

And, uh, the other thing was, they also all went to the same place for the wedding reception. Who was? Ah, hotel down there called the Tivoli? Uh um, just a grand. Uh huh. Building. It was just beautiful. All would on. And they just had some wonderful ballrooms in there.

00:32:16.550 - 00:32:33.850

Just beautiful grand old hotel. Unfortunately, they took it down. I think that, like in its last days, the only thing that was keeping it up with termites were holding hands with a wood structure of that size with That was a sad day when they took that down.

00:32:34.540 - 00:32:53.060

So I just realized I haven't asked you much about your family. What was What was you had a sister? Yeah. I have a brother, Bob, who is seven years older. My sister is eight years old. She's diseased, but, yeah, we had a We had a great family life.

00:32:53.640 - 00:33:22.080

Can you talk a little bit about it? Sure. Sure. I, uh my mom was just a nut about holidays. Uh, just really loved to decorate. And my mom was quite the lady. I remember it. I used to have a rabbit, has a little kid, and that at Easter time she would die.

00:33:22.080 - 00:33:50.510

The rabbit pink. Using what? Some kind of food? Food dye? Yeah, she go over the top sometimes in decorating for the holidays. In in the first house that we lived in. Ah was on Oleander Street. But it started to become known as where they call it Santa Claus Lane.

00:33:50.610 - 00:34:15.750

Because at Christmas time, everybody on the on the street just go wild with decorations, lights and and And you could get your standard issue Christmas lights and animal. Oh, yeah, the only there was It was, um, different about Christmas and Panama. World number one thing. It's hot cold.

00:34:15.760 - 00:34:34.960

It's mostly hot. Where it's Christmas. Yeah, it's Christmas. And and And they they imported the Christmas trees writhe on the ship and everybody would go down. At one point, you actually went down, uh, to the peer to get him, and then he started bringing them into the commissary.

00:34:34.970 - 00:35:11.050

But yeah, you know, you were lucky if if the needles would stay on you no more than about a week. But the other thing that was interesting about Christmas in Panama is, um, Christmas tree burns. And, uh, every neighborhood way would collect them, kids would collect them, and you build a you know, while you're collecting them, you know, waiting for your sanctioned Christmas tree burn for this fire department.

00:35:11.050 - 00:35:29.440

Actually come to your neighborhood on oversee it. And, uh, but, you know, while you were waiting and you're collecting all the trees, you know, you'd make forts out of them. You know, your kids. And and then it got to be a situation where you wanted to have more and more trees.

00:35:29.450 - 00:35:46.550

You had, like, Christmas tree gangs, and you would actually raid other neighborhoods, steal their trees, eso But that was a lot of fun, you know? And then, you know, with the night of the burn it I mean, it was it was quite the bonfire. Yeah. There's a lot of fun.

00:35:47.140 - 00:36:01.760

Yeah, that's that's That's a tradition I've never heard of. But But you're, like the third or fourth person ever bring it up in these interviews. And what do you think? The origins of it? What? Where did start and why? I don't know. I don't know how.

00:36:03.630 - 00:36:25.000

Having include Yeah, started. It's interesting. Yeah, um, so talk a little bit about your experiences in high school. Were what activities? What? Your subjects. What? Your activities or your hobbies? Um, besides camping and surfing. Or is that it? That was pretty much it. I mean, I I did get into my senior year.

00:36:25.000 - 00:36:49.220

I was I was pretty small, scrawny kid in high school. Kind of stayed to myself. But then in in my senior year, I went out for football. E stand is quite the rivalry. Oh, yeah? Well, you got three teams. Three Barbara Bobble High School, uh, Crystal Ball High school from the Atlantic Side and the junior college.

00:36:50.300 - 00:37:13.570

And at one time there was the fourth team. The athletic club, which were thieves, were young man, that we're most of were apprentices in the Panama Canal Company. And of course, being bigger guys you know, they would normally be leading, you know, at halftime, but then they'd all go in a bowling alley and drink beer.

00:37:13.580 - 00:37:34.180

Halftime. But then in the second half, usually they get beat. Mhm. It wasn't very good football. Some of the worst football you've ever seen. I mean, most of the time you'd be It'd be good if you had a score of seven to nothing. You know, anybody ever made a touchdown, but everyone loved it.

00:37:34.190 - 00:37:51.430

Yeah, it was. It was It was a great It was a great time. And then, actually, I got injured. My knee got taken out, so I didn't really play more than maybe a couple of games. But then I continued playing in junior college, and that was fun.

00:37:51.440 - 00:38:14.240

It was a lot of fun. Uh huh. And we have Ah, they call it the Jamboree, where we all get on the train and go over to the Atlantic side to play Crystal ball high school. That was That was a good time. It was, um, the train back then was, uh, really just a beautiful train.

00:38:14.240 - 00:38:32.680

Was open air with wicker bench seats. Oh, and it's just a now our our ride. It's an hour for one side. The other, right? Okay. And, you know, it was just a great train, right? Because, you know, some of you are going through the rainforest right along the canal along.

00:38:32.680 - 00:38:53.860

You have to lake. It's just a beautiful a lot of really pretty senior senior and going through the jungle on even in the summer time. His kids, We got into this thing where we would we drive our bikes, writer bikes down to the train station in the what we call the guy works.

00:38:53.870 - 00:39:10.480

Works on the train conductor, the conductor. A conductor would put our bikes on one of the freight cars. And when we go out over the Atlantic side, we drive around over there on our bikes and then come back in the afternoon and the other kids on the on the other side let you get away with that.

00:39:10.490 - 00:39:30.700

Yeah. Yeah. Wait, What are you guys doing? Yeah, exactly. I was a kid. We had dirt clods throwing out that way. Um oh, I had a question. Oh, yeah. Now that if I'm doing the math in my head right, your high school, or at least your later.

00:39:30.700 - 00:39:47.820

Part of your did you call it elementary or junior? High or career would have been around the time that I understand that there was a lot of protests, both by the Panamanians and then some Sort of I don't know if you help counter protests over the flag and, yeah, Were you involved in any of that or what was What was the effect?

00:39:48.070 - 00:40:19.300

Um, see, that was in 64 and I was I was not high school. My brother sister were and you know, they were there. Those were pretty stressful times. Uh huh. Yeah. They had Panamanians marched on Balboa High School way. We're gonna take the flag down and and so the, You know, the police came and it got pretty ugly.

00:40:20.170 - 00:40:40.040

And my mom worked in the administration building the Panama Canal administration building up on the hill. That overlooked Bobbo High School. And she was rather feisty, and she ended up coming down and get in the middle of it. And she wasn't hurt, though. You wanna die a bunny pink?

00:40:40.050 - 00:41:03.480

Yeah. Yeah, that's right. That's right. She was something else, but yeah, And then, you know, the riots got pretty ugly uh, people got killed. You know, we were under martial law when that was going on for it. Seems like I can't remember how many days, Several days under martial law.

00:41:03.600 - 00:41:21.190

And I remember my brother snuck out one time and went down to the border to watch it. He came home and he was really upset because I think he saw the first guy First American Truth that got shot and killed. So I didn't really upset him.

00:41:21.200 - 00:41:43.510

Remember that very vividly. It's a young kid. Brother Bob came home. Was was really upset over that. Now, what were the I mean, just sitting here, of course. What, Some 30 40 50 years later. Now? Yeah, it seemed to me that that that might have an effect on how one views your life there.

00:41:43.510 - 00:42:04.940

I mean, you're yes, life you're having, and then you find out there people over there they wanna bust. Yeah. What kind of affected that have on your view of yourself? Your community, the country? Yeah. I mean, up into that point, you know, the sixties. Um, you know, it seemed to be very harmonious.

00:42:04.950 - 00:42:31.530

Uh, relationship with the Panamanians way never felt threatened when we went into Panama City. Yeah, at all. I mean, I thought it was a great relationship between Panamanians in the U. S. Citizens there. And it was It wasn't until the sixties that you could tell things were starting to unravel.

00:42:32.110 - 00:43:01.040

Um, in, You know, at that time it just It just didn't Seamus much fun anymore. You know, going going into the city because you had you could feel the tension on. And I remember one time going back after I had left. I went back in the early seventies and I was actually left Asked to leave the store by the Panamanians.

00:43:01.050 - 00:43:25.490

E was the only proprietor. Yeah, I was, actually I was asked to leave, and, uh, you know, that's what I knew. It's not the same anymore. Yeah, that was okay. It was It was a bad time. Now, also in America, of course, there's, you know, various right of civil rights.

00:43:25.500 - 00:43:43.370

Vietnam. Did that have any effect on life in the canal zone? Did you stay abreast of what was going on the rest of the world of the country? It just seemed like we were in a cocoon down there. It really did uh, it's It just seemed like way were so detached.

00:43:43.760 - 00:44:06.010

At least that's the way I felt about it. And, you know, politics, everything that was going on in the state. Did you keep up on? No. No, I didn't. I just First. I don't know why, but it just e you know, I remember, You know, as a kid in high school way really didn't talk about that.

00:44:06.090 - 00:44:30.860

We talked about maybe football way started watching football in baseball. Do you keep up on American sports? Yeah, yeah, but not it wasn't until I came to the States that I really started following it more closely. But when I was down there, yeah, did somewhat. But it wasn't a really avid sports fan.

00:44:30.870 - 00:44:51.600

US sports time. Okay. And it maybe it's because I was just really into surfing, you know, at that time, how about the war in Vietnam that have any effect? Well, yeah, it started to, And then when I transferred up to the University of Florida Yeah, it was, you know, those were the hippie days.

00:44:51.610 - 00:45:15.650

Sure, sure. And we're hippies in the canal zone. Yeah. Yeah, it was It was starting down there. Yeah, It was starting. But, you know, that's that's about the time I left on. Yeah, I was e just found that so different because, you know, we had some pretty good riots in Gainesville.

00:45:15.660 - 00:45:38.320

You Gainesville eight. Sure. With Scott Camille back in those days. And I remember being stuck in the riots, uh, there on 13th Street, right in front of Tigert Hall, watching that watching that riot, but kind of maybe think back to the rights and animal. Maybe you you brought with you.

00:45:38.330 - 00:46:04.320

Yeah, I know. I know. Um, I had something. I forgot. You hope so. Thank you. Now, uh, what did you study at the junior college? I had a question. Let me go back a little bit. It actually brought up another question. We talked about your high school in following politics.

00:46:04.370 - 00:46:20.800

Now makes me curious. Every American here in the States, maybe not every American, but vast majority of us at least go to public school, learn civics. You learn how the government works in history. Did you learn that? And was that part of your curriculum? And what did it mean to someone living in the canal zone?

00:46:21.780 - 00:46:36.130

Yeah, it waas, but I just felt to me. It was just Well, it's a subject. I meditate just on the subject. Just another subject. Okay, I was I was more interested in science in that. Okay. And is that what you started when you went to junior college?

00:46:36.140 - 00:46:54.700

Yeah. Okay. And then specifically, talk about your college career. Both there ended any Williamsville and then your transition. Of course. That must be right. Right? Um, well, I think, you know, we're looking back, I think the quality of education that we got in the canal, something was really good.

00:46:55.380 - 00:47:24.300

I think that in general, the teachers were very well qualified. Um, was just, you know, I was a good student. Uh, and, uh, when I went Thio Junior college, you know, the math and chemistry and physics teachers. I just I just thought were top notch now, were they 2nd, 3rd generation zone.

00:47:24.630 - 00:47:56.830

Where were they recruited down there? E think quite a few were recruited, but I just remember. Mm. You know, one of the things that I found and this was right around the time when, um, you know, the hippie movement Vietnam era was starting. There were two teachers down there one taught middle school.

00:47:57.690 - 00:48:21.980

The other one was in English comp teacher and the English comp teacher was everybody really liked. He was really a good teacher. In fact, um, I can consider myself today a rather good writer. And I attribute that mainly Thio to that English comp teacher. But they were both gay.

00:48:22.850 - 00:48:49.700

Oh, and with a couple or just Yeah, they Yeah, they became a couple. And when that became known, they were deported. Really? Tells him because of that and thinking back on that. And then when I came to the States and, you know, looking back on, it was just how narrow find it, you know, you were too well, especially the English comp teach.

00:48:49.700 - 00:49:04.870

I mean, the guy was just a really good teacher. Have you talked? Thio talked to a lot of my friends that had that class, and they said, Yeah, he was really good. You ever find out what happened to him? You know, now you know, how did it come out?

00:49:04.880 - 00:49:17.530

I mean, if you knew as a kid, but how? I mean, I would think they'd be very guarded. Yeah. Yeah, it was everybody just kind of like, where they go on. And then, you know the rumor mill, the rumor mill ramping down there. It wasn't like it was in the paper or anything.

00:49:17.530 - 00:49:44.460

Sure, Sure, sure. It just you know, the room It. Yeah. Any other instances in Texas? The first I've heard that they're used to assume they're gay people everywhere, but, um, no, that was the only thing you know, the whole deportation thing. I was, Yeah, the, uh remember, there were two kids where their families got deported because their kids just got really bad trouble.

00:49:44.470 - 00:50:14.420

Really? E think one of them was just got kind of violent, you know, was beat up a couple of kids, Uh, his family was deported. The other one got drunk and went out onto a yacht that was parked at the yacht club. And e think he had some guns or I don't know what it was, but that family got to do it without Yeah, Yeah.

00:50:14.420 - 00:50:43.670

I mean, if you had to do something pretty bad, but if you did, you were gone. Your your family? I mean, Father lost your job. You were gone. Yeah. Um what was the you you talked about? Your relationship with some of the Panamanians. But my understanding is there was really ah whole host of minority communities there, you know, some left over from the A construction days, right?

00:50:43.680 - 00:50:59.500

Where did you work? Did you interact with them? Did you part of your community? Well, yeah, it was the West Indians, right? Yeah, that lived in. Even if some people mention there's some Indians and people from China and sounds like quite the community, actually, Right, right.

00:50:59.660 - 00:51:18.180

You know the thing? I'm looking back on the thing that I found so interesting Waas Oh, in looking back, it was segregation. Mm. I don't know if that e don't know if that was by design or what, but all the West Indians lived in this place called Parisot.

00:51:18.190 - 00:51:42.640

Uh, and, uh, you know, those are the descendants of the people that built the canal and most of them were worked on the locks line handlers and so on. And, uh, and e and looking back at it, the only time that I, as a kid, noticed that it was softball league.

00:51:42.650 - 00:52:03.290

They had their team, our teams, and then they would play with all the other zone Ian's. But it just struck me that, you know that they lived out there and everybody else lived in other places. It was, but I mean, everybody got along fine. And was it like that?

00:52:04.050 - 00:52:27.770

Yeah. It wasn't like the race, uh, situation, you know, in the States. Sure. Sixties. It never was like that. You know, you never there was. It just didn't seem that like there was any animosity. Uh, but, you know, looking back, I just thought it was kind of odd they lived there, and everybody else, you know, live there, right?

00:52:28.750 - 00:53:03.080

Well, that brings me back to the question of your transition, then to from being junior college and, you know, Canal Zone, Jeter, Florida's Gainesville. Let's face it, even today is a fairly segregated city, like design or not s O. That must have been a riel. Yeah, well, you know the thing that I had a really tough hard time making the transition to the states because just so many roles, you know, drinking was it was one of things that really behind you know, you've probably heard as their interviews.

00:53:03.080 - 00:53:24.850

I mean, social drinking was pretty much sport in the house, so and, um, you know when I transferred up to gain. So I wasn't 21. And the whole idea of having to be 21 to drink when you know they're sending people to Vietnam? No, at 18.

00:53:24.860 - 00:53:43.820

I just couldn't understand it. It really, really bothered me. Just way. Just had so much freedom in the canal zone. And it seemed like I gave a lot of that up. When? When I came to to the States. E don't know what It just so many roles.

00:53:44.350 - 00:54:10.760

Um, it really bothered me. It took me about a year, you know? I got over it, but it just seemed like I just had a much, much freer life when I lived down there. Because, you know, if you got in trouble in Panama, you know, you're all the police knew your family and everybody, you know, you get pulled over and said, You know, Rusty, don't do that again, you know, do it up.

00:54:10.760 - 00:54:30.500

You're you're in jail, right? That's interesting. Most kids go to school to get freedom. Yeah, well, to me, it seemed the other way around. It wasn't e. I mean, yeah, I was living on my own, but just society There's just a lot more rules. Just seemed like it back then.

00:54:30.510 - 00:54:51.790

Yeah. Did you live on campus or did you? Yeah. 1st, 1st semester back then that we were on a quarter system. First quarter. I did, Uh, my friend Ted, he also transferred. Oh, good and way shared an apartment. Yeah. Uh, you know what? I get up from that point on, hopefully a little freer.

00:54:52.110 - 00:55:19.560

What did you study when you're Gainesville Civil Engineering. Okay. And what about your life? And now you didn't return? It seems that you'd return to the zone. Why not? Um, you know, it's interesting. My my father, I think he saw the handwriting on the wall. Uh, that the US wasn't going thio maintain control over the canal forever.

00:55:19.940 - 00:55:58.160

And he just really made a point of drilling that into my head. He said, don't think this place is gonna be the same. There's gonna come a time when we're not all going to be here. And so it worked. That sunk into my head. And when when I graduated, I really didn't have a desire to go back because I knew that unless I work for the canal that I wasn't gonna have the opportunity in Panama at that time.

00:55:58.280 - 00:56:22.670

That would have been your graduation. 75 74 74. Yeah. Graduated. Okay, that's close. And so then I started my career, and you go back much now. I am? Yeah, I'm going back at least once a year. Um, and I really like it. It's It's a different country, uh, different place.

00:56:22.680 - 00:56:47.850

Do you have friends who lived in? Because I understand a lot of people stayed and continued working for Yeah, Yeah, I have a couple friends. It's not there. And so you think it's the transition? Went well and Oh, no, I don't think so. Okay. Please share your opinion of Well, e I had a great opportunity toe work there.

00:56:47.860 - 00:57:23.320

Uh, I work for, uh, environmental engineering company. And we had a contract, um, performing environmental assessments of the property that was or military basis army basis Air Force bases in the canal zone. Our our our So we were we were hired by the military Thio perform these assessments of the property to determine the condition of the property as it was being reverted.

00:57:23.330 - 00:57:52.560

Uh, s Yeah. This was in the early to mid nineties, and it it was just you could tell the place was just in absolute turmoil. To me, it appeared that way. Uh, you know, the thes civilians who are working for the military on the these bases, you know, had really bad attitude because, you know, they're about ready to get sure, you know, lose their jobs.

00:57:52.560 - 00:58:19.890

And it was just so much uncertainty during that time frame. And, um, the the what didn't seem to be a very well organized process for the reversion of the property. And, uh, And so during that time you saw what used to be the canal zone, Uh, kind of decaying, Yeah, site of your childhood, right?

00:58:19.900 - 00:59:02.540

You know, it just it because back when Americans ran ran it. It was kind of run like a military base. Everything was like meet a za pin and yeah, and as the reversion was going on, that came to an end. Garbage on the streets. You know, Z vegetation wasn't maintained, houses started the mildew and that, and and it was just part of the process of just it took a while before mhm, all of that transpired on.

00:59:02.550 - 00:59:22.760

And then, you know now, Um, even though it doesn't look like the canal zone, it's not. It's a much better condition, but in the nineties, it just It was not going well, and it was just a rough transition period. But it's, you know, now you go back and and it's a better place.

00:59:23.510 - 00:59:49.030

Better than the nineties or better. Better than 90. Yeah. Okay. And you start to go back about how often? About once a year. Once once a year. Okay? Yeah. Okay. Um, so it feels to me like we might be coming to the end. Um, if you have any stories or e wanna make sure I hit everything you want to hit, you know, And that actually leads to more questions, but yeah.

00:59:51.020 - 01:00:05.260

No, I don't think so. Okay. Yeah, well, I want to thank you for coming by today. I hope you enjoy the rest of you. Um, I understand it goes with the rest of weekend on. Thank you very much for contributing to this project. And hopefully you'll hear your voice.

01:00:05.410 - 01:00:33.520

Something e exhibit your website E. We're back to talk about the Cayuga race. First off high spell Chijuka. See a why, you see why, You see? Okay, you go. You go. So tell me about your participation. That Are you all right? Well, um, it was the first year 67 was your first year or your first.

01:00:33.520 - 01:01:02.140

That was my first year in At that time, it was a Boy Scout even. And although everyone thio join the Boy Scouts, that was pretty much why they joined with you, Grace. You know, not many other your scouting activities throughout the year. And it was just a great event.

01:01:02.150 - 01:01:28.070

Um, it, um all of the crews had thio had to do all the work themselves on the boat. The usually one of the one of the fathers would be the scoutmaster and could help using power tools without it. And, uh, and it was three day race through the Panama Canal.

01:01:28.230 - 01:02:00.020

It would start on a Friday afternoon, and the first leg of the race was from the crystal. We got club to Gatun locks, so you have to travel. Yeah, we had to drive over the way, actually got it off from school. And, uh, and what would happen is, uh, families on the Atlantic side of kids that were in the race would put everybody up camping out underneath their house because, you know, the houses off the ground.

01:02:00.020 - 01:02:23.680

So you'd be you know, it was a real adventure. You got to go over there and camp out. You know, the night before the, uh, actually that after the first day, you would sleep over after the first leg of the race and then the second leg of the race, you would start on the lake side of the locks and go to Gamboa.

01:02:23.690 - 01:02:40.690

That was really the main part of the race. Because it's I think it's 26 miles, and, uh and then you would, um, at the end of when you get out of Gamboa. Then you would start there for the third day, and you actually went through two sets a lot.

01:02:40.700 - 01:03:02.630

Excuse me. Excuse me. And so it's a three day race, and it was black. And you got to go through the locks. Yeah, actually went through the locks. Did they suspend shit? They didn't suspend? Yeah, Yeah, they of course. You know, back then, the traffic through the canal was nowhere near what it's like today.

01:03:02.700 - 01:03:27.270

Uh, eso yeah, but now they don't allow that they still have the race. Uh, and it was It was just a great event back then, there was probably no more than 15 to 20 votes. Now there's, I think, last year there were 92 votes. No, he came in second, though.

01:03:27.280 - 01:03:47.210

Came in second when your first year. We came in third. Second year came in seventh in the last year. Came in second. Now I've noticed a discrepancy. You said you had to do all the work on the boat, But didn't you say before that, Mr Henner?

01:03:47.220 - 01:04:09.820

Oh, yeah, this cash master, the scoutmaster? Well, yeah, at that time, you know, all the boats were genuine, Kyriacos Uh huh. And, you know, they would get him from a, you know, an Indian, but they would be a lot of wood that you could take off to make it lighter.

01:04:09.830 - 01:04:32.980

Eso we would, you know, plain or sand off. Like the Pinewood Derby. They give you the kid? Yeah, right, You know, Then we would put I forgot what you call it. Put a canvas top over the bow with a wave break. Uh huh. Um, because sometimes, you know, if the water got rough water would come over about andan seats.

01:04:32.990 - 01:04:51.470

It have seats, you know, because there were four people in each. You go, Uh, this is a pretty good size. Oh, yeah, they were, like, 30 ft long. Okay, Yeah, I was envisioning something a little smaller, but, like, you know what you see in a wife, Ivo, They just without the outrigger.

01:04:51.480 - 01:05:13.170

Yeah, well, congratulations on the second place. I'm always back. In the end of those things actually started back up again. I went back into the U. S. So explain the differences you said before you had to be. Wouldn't. But now sounds like some of them now are fiberglass.

01:05:13.700 - 01:05:38.300

And some of them are kind of hybrids where part of the boat was an original Chiyoko. And then they've added wooden strips onto it. Um, so now, not all. Not very sustainable that were going on. Cutting off the trees on e make you goes. Uh, and but now it's really cool.

01:05:38.310 - 01:06:09.280

I really like how Panama's really embraced the race. Uh, and it's a big deal. There's they have corporate sponsors. Really? So that goes on Boy Scouts? Oh, no, it zbig deal now. Really? Yeah. It is really cool. It's I was just so impressed. Uh, it's a very well organized race and there's so much camaraderie.

01:06:09.290 - 01:06:33.270

Uh, that's the other thing that I really enjoyed about going back participating in it. It's just Panamanians, Americans, Canadians, its's. It's not like back in the U. S. People travel. Is this something that pulls in? Is this something that pulls in some sort of a certain level of sports tourism to people travel from?

01:06:33.280 - 01:06:52.340

Well, yeah, some people do. But I would have thought there would be mawr. But it's it's mainly Panamanians that are in the race and a few zone Ian's. They're still still don't quite a few zone Ian's that keep doing it. And in fact, my my friend Ted, I think he's He's done to race more than anybody.

01:06:52.350 - 01:07:07.790

E think he's done like 13 of them now, Uh, but yeah, it's just a really fun race, you know. And now there's like I said last year there were 19 years. Wow, And when does what time of year? When does it happen? It's usually the, I think.

01:07:08.680 - 01:07:29.280

Usually the weekend before Easter. It's usually in March, March pulling. Yeah, it sounds like a lot of fun. It's a blast. Now is your Kyriakou. Cukurca. I'm sorry You go now is the one you uses. It would do you use a fiberglass one? Uh, well, I don't own it.

01:07:29.290 - 01:07:47.640

Ted owns it. And it's its's, like a hybrid. You know, it's still got some of the original of go in the main body of it. But in the bow, Stern says he's got wood strips built onto it. Now, does he live in the zone, or does he know he lives here in Florida?

01:07:47.640 - 01:08:00.760

But he and his wife owned a home down there, so he goes down part of them. Okay. E never did ask you. Where do you Where do you live? There other than Clearwater, Florida. Clearwater, Florida. A lot of Macedonians seemed to have settled in Florida. Is that a reason for that?

01:08:00.760 - 01:08:20.540

Are e thought Texas or California? There are quite a few in Texas. Is well okay. Yeah, There's a big community in Texas, but yeah, it seems like most of us ended up here in Florida. Probably because the weather similar. Yeah, it strikes me, right? Yeah. We don't do very well in cold.

01:08:20.550 - 01:08:44.240

I Well, Yeah, I wouldn't think that that would. You know, people who liked the cold wouldn't be drawn originally. And of course, you wouldn't stay. I mean, it strikes me is right, e. I'm more of a snow person. I find myself in Florida for various pod reasons, but anyway, um Okay, well, once again, if there's anything else you would like to share, let me know sometimes we don't get all the stories.

01:08:44.250 - 01:09:02.800

Some people should actually show up with little notes. They wanna make sure they get to every single. All right. So, um, thank you for joining us on day. I hope you stay abreast of what goes on with the museum. I understand. It seems to me, um, that the community really has really embraced the museum in a way that really is good for its overall health and viability.

01:09:02.810 - 01:09:12.410

You don't always get that with various types of museum. So my opinion is is a bright future for E. Anyway, thank you very much. All right. Thank you. Thank you.