00:00:00.240 - 00:00:13.290

All right. Well, um, Mr and Mrs Russell, I wonder, Let's go. We're going to get started. I know that you have a busy schedule today. And first of all, I want to thank you for taking time out of your reunion Scheduled toe. Agree to be interviewed by us.

00:00:13.300 - 00:00:41.470

All right. All right. Well, I wonder one of the questions we've been asking folks is how many generations your respective families lived in the canal and when they first came and and why dark? Alright. Our family's life in Panama started with my grandfather, Walter De Peterson, who was born in Copenhagen, Denmark, on July 6 18 76.

00:00:41.920 - 00:01:04.410

And he immigrated to Jamestown, New York, with his parents in 18 85. And from 18 98 to 18 99 he was in the US Army Hospital Corps in Cuba. And it was there that he got to meet Theodore Roosevelt just months after Roosevelt and the Rough Rider stormed to San Juan and Grandpa greatly admired Roosevelt.

00:01:04.420 - 00:01:31.910

And hey wanted to participate in Roosevelt's vision to build a waterway connecting the Pacific and Atlantic oceans. My grandfather worked on the construction of the Panama Canal from 1906 to 1914 and then continued his career there until his retirement in 1937. He was a recipient of the Roosevelt Meddle with three bars, which represented his eight years of work.

00:01:31.920 - 00:01:58.610

During the 10 year canal construction period, my grandfather and grandmother raised four boys and two girls, including my dad in the Canal Zone. So that's where all of us started. And then my father raised. My mother raised my sister and myself. So my sister and I grew up there and goes on from there, and Bob and I ended up having our careers, their asses.

00:01:58.610 - 00:02:18.130

Well, so that come, I guess later on in the interview. All right. Wonderful. And you, Mr Russell? You okay? My parents, my dad was both. My parents were from Shelby County, Tennessee, around Memphis in World War Two. Came along on I'm assuming that was E. S in December.

00:02:18.130 - 00:02:34.650

What, 41? I guess December 7th and I would assume that 42 or 43 My dad my dad enlisted in, was stationed in Panama, and he stayed there through throughout the war when he got out of the service there and went to work for the U. S.

00:02:34.650 - 00:02:57.850

Army is a civilian, and his trade was a mechanic. And upon his retirement, I guess he was a supervisor of the heavy ordinance. Our maintenance, Uh, my mother joined him during World War two, and my mother passed on a little bit of a story when she was flying down from the States.

00:02:58.190 - 00:03:13.160

There was on an airplane, and they had all the windows blacked out. But there was a little crack, and she was staring out that little crack looking and seeing what you could see down below. And then she was afraid she was gonna get arrested because she saw ships on different things and, you know, during the flight.

00:03:13.540 - 00:03:39.890

But my mom came to Panama and she loved bananas. And my dad had a stock of bananas waiting for and, uh and then I came along in 1947 after the war, and and my both my parents, uh, made careers there in the canal zone. My my father worked, ended up working for, like I said, department Army, Logistical Support Command at the end, and my mother worked for I E.

00:03:39.890 - 00:04:08.990

G s American Geodetic survey, and, uh, my mother retired. I believe it was in 19 70 and my dad I got out of the service in 74. So he got retired in 1973 and they made their home in Pensacola, Florida, where you're no longer living. But that's, you know, the and so I mean, I was born there.

00:04:08.990 - 00:04:27.680

Then I went to went through the ninth grade. And then I ended up going to Castle Heist Military Academy in Tennessee from the 10th through the 12th grade and went on to college and washed Raw Baptist University in Arkadelphia, Arkansas, and then went through the ROTC program was commissioned.

00:04:27.680 - 00:04:51.170

A second lieutenant ended up back in Panama for my for my tour of duty. I was assistant adjutant at Fort Clayton was called P A. I see Pacific Area Installation Command. Uh, my dad was still working there. In fact, he the colonel there was over that whole area, and he was, and Dad was part of that command.

00:04:51.180 - 00:05:10.080

And then I got out of the service, became a school teacher, taught mathematics for two years and then transferred in. Human resource is and was in human resource is until I retired from the Panama Canal Commission. And, uh, and it was in 1998 January the third.

00:05:10.090 - 00:05:38.010

So we also had our career there. I mean, I had my career. So did Cheryl. Yeah. All right. Well, Mrs Russell, you mentioned your grand grandparent's generation. Uh, and Cuba, Caribbean and Panama did Did many stories from from that generation passed down to you. Did you grow up hearing those stories about your interactions, You know?

00:05:38.020 - 00:06:09.670

Not really. Grant. My grandfather retired in 37. I was born in 47 on. He left the Panama Canal, of course. Came back to the States and I grew up in Panama s. Oh, we didn't really see each other all that often. We'd come to the States every couple of years and and see him, but really didn't pass on a whole lot of stories other than, uh, he when he found out about the are United States going to give Panama Canal?

00:06:09.680 - 00:06:29.930

You know, back in that kind of a thing, he was very distraught. He was probably one of a few surviving canal construction workers, and he just thought that was the wrong thing to do. But I think today if he were living on. He saw how well everything is going and how the canals progressed.

00:06:29.930 - 00:06:48.010

I think it would be very pleasantly surprised a long run. So it's interesting hearing both You talk about your educational experiences because it sounds like if I'm not mistaken, you went to high school, and I've finished, uh, elementary school, junior high and high school, and one year of canals on college in Panama.

00:06:48.020 - 00:07:13.490

Okay? And then joined Bob up in in school in college and Arkansas. Okay. And then we went back together as a married couple in the Army, and my career was started out with the Panama Canal. And I worked in various organizations, uh, started with the general counsel's office and then went into Police Division and Health Bureau, the General Services Bureau Fire division.

00:07:13.490 - 00:07:49.770

And then, uh then I went to work with Army civilian personnel until my retirement in 1995. You're a labor employee. Relations time, labor relations. Uh, what was the difference between going toe high school in the United States vs Panama? Uh, military. So I went to a military school, so it was a little It was a little change here, but I adjusted well, And, uh uh, well, you just didn't have, You know, you can have your girlfriends around or anything else.

00:07:49.770 - 00:08:09.040

So strictly a male dominated thing and, you know, sports. And, uh, I remember in the 10th grade, uh, I made a be on my English test, and my teacher made me grab my ankles, and he gave me a swat across the rear with a paddle because I didn't make an A I mean, this is how the military school work in those days.

00:08:09.050 - 00:08:34.160

Uh, but but other than that, I mean, the social life was where it was missing, Really? I think. And one of the things I can remember us, uh, elementary school, we would go to this what was called the commissary or the supply division, and we were given each child was given a big packet wrapped in brown paper, and it was full of your school supplies.

00:08:34.310 - 00:08:50.630

So you had all your paper and your pens, pencils and construction paper and everything for to go to school. Of course, this is a long time ago, but that that was kind of a memory that stands out in my mind is a, um as a young person going to school there.

00:08:50.630 - 00:09:11.600

And, of course, we wrote the school bus back and forth and and our teachers at the school system required Correct me if I'm wrong. A master's pretty much require double. They had bachelor's degree, but most of them have master's degrees. They recruited well, we had a good, good teaching force there in the canals.

00:09:14.140 - 00:09:31.660

And they had, uh, you know, schools were on course, the Pacific and the Atlantic side, and those were really the only two schools systems per se. So when you have football games, the kids played against each other. Not like in the States. We have a whole lot of different schools you're competing with, You know, that kind of a thing.

00:09:31.640 - 00:09:55.710

We'd ride the train back and forth across Yes, Mr Go to football games, uh, jamborees quarter against each other. It was Canal Zone College, which is the Green Devils at that time Balboa High School Bulldogs, the stable Tigers. And then they had the A C athletic club, and that was usually made up of those initially that didn't make the other teams surprising enough.

00:09:55.710 - 00:10:13.180

Sometimes they see would win the championship and then, uh, then I got to be they There were some, you know, young GIs and all that would make the team up. You know, just give us, um, competition or whatever. And but, yeah, it was good times their basketball s.

00:10:13.180 - 00:10:35.120

So how did the season's work, If you only had three or four teams we just played, they played twice against twice, Okay. A t e. Recall doing that. And then then they later changed that. And then they I forgot how that worked. I taught mathematics a country junior high for for I think two years and and we had a football team.

00:10:35.120 - 00:10:50.730

That was because it was the undue Cougars on and they play. But the cougar, they weren't just all made up of students from from the crunchy, uh, junior high school. It was a mixture of, you know, they drafted All these people are mixed him up, so it be different.

00:10:50.730 - 00:11:11.360

It's a different in my year. Teaching it was different than when when we went to school, there was a totally different, different approach to everything. It's just Did you have relatives from the States who would visit at that time or do you have much interaction with going to the mainland of the U S or Oh, yes, yes.

00:11:11.370 - 00:11:38.540

Uh, my father worked for the Panama Canal company in the transportation division, and the company owned three ships. The Panama Line. Uh, Cristobal, the ANC con and the Panama SS Christo boy says, Oh, and con ss Panama. He used to say, That's how I got. My name is Cheryl and Peterson this way got home leave just every other year.

00:11:38.550 - 00:11:57.440

They, you know, send you back to the States to your home of record. And we traveled on that ship on one of those three ships back and forth and as Panama Canal kids dependence. We used to be jealous of the kids who whose parents work for the military because they got to fly to the States.

00:11:57.440 - 00:12:24.320

They got there faster way came on the ship and the ship. Initially, we would go from Panama to New York, So it was a five day trip. We were cruising before. It was really the thing to do, and we'd stop off in Haiti and have a day in Haiti and then going the rest of the way, but s so that was how we went back and forth to the States on the SS, Christo Bow and Counter Panama and then a so faras other relatives.

00:12:24.330 - 00:12:50.500

Since my father's family grew up there, he had, uh, six. Let's say I had five aunts and uncles in Panama and 10 cousins. They all lived on the Atlantic side. So, uh, we would go once again in the train or drive across the isthmus to have family get togethers, and it was always back then.

00:12:50.500 - 00:13:07.600

They always used in lace tablecloths and brought out their best china and all that kind of thing. You know, it wasn't paper plates or anything, but so we did have a lot of interaction with my cousins had, uh, with my cousins I had on my father's side.

00:13:07.610 - 00:13:30.270

One of his nieces, K Stone, um, went back to Panama after she finished college and taught school. And then she met army officer and stationed at Fort Clayton. So she came back to the States with him and my sister growing up as a senior in high school, she met an Air Force man down there.

00:13:30.270 - 00:13:53.320

They got married in the States and they came back and that They worked as a youth director at our church for a while, and then they left and then on my mother's still on my father's side. All of my other cousins left after high school. They never had careers in Panama, on my mother's side for boys, for cousins, the Hannah brothers, Bobby, Billy, Tommy and Johnny.

00:13:53.330 - 00:14:11.250

All of them had careers in with Canal Company. In fact, we all lived in pretty much the same communities. Was it? Was it relatively common for a lot of students to leave the country after graduating from high school? Or was it just kind of a mix?

00:14:11.260 - 00:14:24.930

Well, those going to cop wasn't mix a lot of them what they want, you know, when the college would go back to the States and go to school and some of the state and some would come back careers and others who would stay in Panama, you didn't go to college.

00:14:24.940 - 00:14:43.140

Many of went into the Apprentice program, came through learning the trades, everything else, and had careers with Canal. There was a lot of interaction on the people down there. It's like like we don't call this a convention. We call it a re union because it's all like a family reunion.

00:14:43.150 - 00:14:58.990

We're all related and were because we were overseas and grew up in the area and and have that commonality. We just It just seems like we clicked together and it z we may not even knowing you on the Atlantic side or the Pacific side. But we get talking.

00:14:59.030 - 00:15:14.950

You're immediately part of our extended family. I mean, just how we are. I mean, it's just been that way for one of the missing family members that you didn't see in Panama very often in the canal. So we're grandparent's because the grand parents would be back in the state.

00:15:14.960 - 00:15:31.650

You know, once, once you've reached retirement age, unless you were going to live in a Republic of Panama, you couldn't stay in the canal zone because it s so you didn't see very many grandparent's around except when they'd come down to visit on, you know, for Christmas or whatever.

00:15:32.140 - 00:16:04.890

Grand parents in one side came on the other side. He didn't and, uh, aunts and uncles came visit us down there. We come up every two years, and I spent time on a farm, you know, got acclimated States go to the movies and, you know, watch with Howdy Doody on TV, you know, get my Bosco and, you know, and all that little stuff American Bandstand Way didn't have commercials on television in Panama initially, and canals and it was a F RTs military.

00:16:04.900 - 00:16:23.740

Yeah, you know. So it was black and white, and then we got eventually, of course, color and whatever, but going to the States watching TV commercials was quite unique. We didn't mind that at all. You know, way back when when we had TV is it's funny because we could grow up, relate in our three teams teams.

00:16:23.770 - 00:16:38.910

We were watching James Cagney movies Edward G. Robinson because that's what they showed on TV, you know, we didn't have the, you know, the latest stuff in the States way gotta be a year later. You know, when they got it through and got dispersed throughout this initially e.

00:16:38.910 - 00:16:53.160

I mean, when when we left, we were just a current as anyone we had, you know? OK, microwave growing up growing up, it was it was we're behind the times. We'd always come up to states and always wait for the kids to come back and tell us what the latest fads were.

00:16:53.160 - 00:17:16.940

You know, you know, it was you know, you mentioned college to thes ships back and forth from New York or later on from New Orleans. Um, they would have what they called a college boat. And at the end of the school year, you know, it was full with college students coming back home to Panama, you know, to the back home in the canal zone.

00:17:16.940 - 00:17:35.260

And, uh, and they've been occasion where Neutra scattered a the the organist that played Panamanian music. Sometimes he would they even, uh, pay for him to be on the ship so they'd have a, you know, the party and all of the Panamanian music coming back home from the States and yeah.

00:17:36.240 - 00:18:02.060

Wow. What were some other elements of social life in the zone? I mean, how did people I mean both You talked about work and career, but how? How? I mean, were there bowling leagues? Were there things fraternal organizations or Oh, yeah. I'm an elk. Mason Schreiner, uh, asked both dated my Shrine Temple.

00:18:02.070 - 00:18:28.520

Uh, what else way? Knights of Columbus were their way have bowling leagues. We had junior football leagues. Baseball was big there. It was big back in in the in the early days when they were building the canal. That was a major sport there, you know, they and on our churches we had every denomination was represented with the church down there.

00:18:28.520 - 00:19:00.590

And we have to go The First Baptist Church and Bible Heights well, usually with Protestant Karan do Baptists. And then there's a double union church. There's Saint Mary's ST Lukes. I mean, it was Everyone was represented there and they had theaters. I mean, the Canal zone when we grew up was it was it was really America that was transplanted 1500 miles away or 1200 miles away in the Republican panel.

00:19:00.600 - 00:19:18.450

That's basically what it was. I mean, we had US court systems. We had a district attorney. We had the only U. S penitentiary outside the United States. Uh, we have the canal zone code, you know. So the United States code, they Congress passed the canal zone code, and that's what's up.

00:19:18.450 - 00:19:31.740

We used to enforcing laws and everything else, and it was it was a great place to grow up. I mean, it was great memories and anyone You talk to you now, I will tell you that was the best time in their life growing up down there.

00:19:31.750 - 00:19:47.270

Because not only did you have the American culture, you had a Panamanian culture, which was great because you could go back and forth and you had your friends on both sides of the border. And I mean, go in the beach, going. I didn't serve. 11 served, going out to eat good, great restaurants.

00:19:47.540 - 00:20:09.410

They called it the crossroads of the world because so many people went through there, you know, and shopping was great in town you had with Hindus, the Chinese, you name it, they head off anything you want. It was there. I mean, you know, rosewood, teak. You know, just accept sour cream and cream cheese for a while.

00:20:09.420 - 00:20:29.940

That used to be kind of fun. Meant in our group in our commissary, where we go grocery shopping, you know, way things would come in when the Panama Line ship brought him in, you know, and of course, the military had their own commissaries, and oftentimes, uh, they would have things that we didn't have, you know?

00:20:29.940 - 00:20:48.300

And that was kind of a got to be kind of a joke and a fun thing. And you all have any sour cream were our cream. Or if some new product came into the military commissary and someone in Panko now found out about it, well, they go toe to the manager and say, Can we get some of this product of whatever it is you know?

00:20:48.300 - 00:21:21.600

And they make an effort to get it into our commissaries as well? One of the questions asking Ask us, what kind of interaction did you have with folks in the military civilians? And it sounds like at least in the commissary had some that also growing up growing up the the pan Canal types could only had only had privileges used their commissaries, the military had had had had the extra benefit of using using their big commissaries and the panic.

00:21:21.600 - 00:21:37.650

And also they have the best of both worlds. And I had the best of both for us because my dad was a department defense civilian and they had access to both. Okay, so but there was interaction. I mean, they all went toe. We all went to school together.

00:21:37.650 - 00:21:53.200

We have together you know you went to churches together, in the clubs together and that kind of thing, and it s Oh, yeah, it was a good relation with the military. One big thing was, as I recall, just came to mind. Was Fort Amador on Monday night?

00:21:53.210 - 00:22:17.770

It was beginning night night, spaghetti meatballs or spaghetti and meat sauce and garlic bread and tea and whatever that was the biggest. That was a big social. Everyone gets off getting on Monday night, Fourth of July parades. Everybody participated. The military was always out there, you know, participating in the local parades.

00:22:17.780 - 00:22:43.730

Marching through the the canal area there in Balboa or probably in Chris Double is well, but I could speak from Balboa and, you know, Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts, all of that kind of thing. And we went Thio, Remember waiting, going to school when we had what they call the bus guards on board the on the bus is on and they were enlisted army, you know, privates.

00:22:43.730 - 00:23:02.620

They would want to make sure the kids were messing around all that on that was an elementary school going back and forth. How would you contrast life in the canal zone? during the years that you were growing up, Maybe during your young adult lives with, say, social life in the U.

00:23:02.620 - 00:23:27.000

S. What would have been some of the same time? Yeah, the same time. One of the things I think that stands out in my mind as an adult and is that, you know, the people that I worked with were very likely. My neighbors as well and maybe in the same church are on the same similar league or whatever were in the States.

00:23:27.010 - 00:23:46.660

The person you work with lives in another town completely, uh, you know, 1500 miles away, they've commuted to work or whatever. And so you only see them in the office or in the work environment where working for the Panama Canal, The people we worked with us, I said, were our neighbors as well.

00:23:46.660 - 00:24:04.680

Or they were when the church went to church with together, we were involved, Other social activities, everybody, everybody knew everybody kind of a thing, you know, that was that's one big difference, E because remember you interviewed for a job in the Washington office when they told you.

00:24:04.690 - 00:24:18.600

He says when you come up here, it's gonna be different because you're not gonna see us because they're all living in different. You don't have that interaction, interaction like we have down in Panama as faras growing up, I don't think there was any big difference. I didn't feel any difference.

00:24:18.600 - 00:24:38.030

I mean, I'd come back in the States, and you know, all this plug right in, You know, a big difference in that. It was they had they had radio before they had television. Listen to gun smoke and no shadow on all that stuff. Often times just because help in the home.

00:24:38.040 - 00:25:06.410

In around you had both parents working, and some help in your home was very inexpensive. So oftentimes you might have a Jamaican lady that would help you raise your Children or wash or clean or cook your meals for you and that kind of thing. That was really probably don't have too much of that in the States, but it was pretty normal for both parents toe work when you were okay.

00:25:07.640 - 00:25:23.840

Both of my parents were parents worked. Yeah. Yeah. And then, uh, then someone would be there at the house when we come home from school and we have dinner started And then, you know, your mom and dad come back home from work and that kind of thing.

00:25:23.850 - 00:25:45.610

Then some people had had helped was live in. You know, they had, uh, the other quarters and made quarters and that they stayed there. You know, there are a lot of Children or whatever. Oftentimes out that worked that way to way. Didn't some good. Yeah, so that may be a little different from contrast.

00:25:45.620 - 00:26:17.150

Yeah, maids. Okay, car wash guys are boys. When all those people who worked in the homes of Americans when the treaty came, they were, really, you know, put in a difficult position because they all lost their livelihoods s o. Many of them were employed in homes and and so and there was no place for them toe work once Americans left, You know, he's kind of a thing.

00:26:17.150 - 00:26:38.030

So it's kind of a difficult for for that, um, economic levels off Panamanians. The other difference to down in the canal zone mainly, you didn't have to worry about cutting your grass. That was taken care of by the canal zone government, uh, lived in government housing.

00:26:38.030 - 00:26:59.930

You had a problem? You called you called housing it would send out. Yeah. Repair guys, plumbers, electricians, whatever. You know, they maintain everything. So, uh, and that they charged you a nominal fee for your for your apartment, but it was nothing like what you're paying states, you know, they kept their workforce there.

00:26:59.930 - 00:27:23.960

They had a tremendous workforce. Yeah, but unfortunately, honey, I'm gonna have to go meet doctor have done right now. Uh, but I guess you have some of the stuff I was involved. I was called active duty during just cause that was in the United States that they Panama throughout Noriega was involved in some of that, And, uh, but on active duty, I stayed reserves.

00:27:23.960 - 00:27:45.180

It was active in the reserves, was the agin of my local reserve unit, retired in 94. And then I retired from the federal government from the Panama Canal Commission 98. My last eight years were quickly I was with the Panna Mary personnel board, and that was sort of like the Office of Personnel Management for our employment system in the States.

00:27:45.180 - 00:28:01.520

You had the civil service system in Panama because the treaty we had the Panama can now employment system, we mirrored the civil service system because by treaty we could not discriminate against her Panamanians. But we couldn't call them GS employees and all that, because interchange abilities different, different complications.

00:28:01.530 - 00:28:16.060

So we had our own employment system when we had really greater flexibility than we did in the United States. Later, when Clinton and Gore came in and they made some changes to the the Federal Personnel Manual, we had already had authorities, and it tried some things in a limited basis.

00:28:16.060 - 00:28:40.830

So we were light years ahead in that respect, Uh, Andi. And in my last year there, the Panamera personnel board, we were like the OPM was my boss, who's your bob up and myself. And then way had a central examining office which examined people entry giving test to come into the that the federal service, basically U S citizens had interchangeability agreements they could transfer.

00:28:40.830 - 00:28:58.420

The states are Panamanians cannot do that. But when it came to pay, the basic pay was the same. Certain individuals that they recruited off Theismann's were given a 15% additional remem oration. That was basic pay. That wasn't a cost of living. It was just you made if you were a G s 12.

00:28:58.420 - 00:29:22.370

You were gs 12. Then you got 15% of that annual rate added onto it if you were eligible for that. And and so at the end of my job was working on a plan. Uh, that drew down the workforce is of all the U. S. Citizen workforce kind of aliens is a We started thio leave the area, and, uh, that was very exciting and interesting.

00:29:22.380 - 00:29:40.270

And, uh, are Panna Mary personnel board? There were three members of the board. It was the secretary of the Army or his designee, the administrator of the Panama Canal and the commander in chief of the United States Central Command. Four star General. Those three made made the decisions on our personnel.

00:29:40.280 - 00:29:54.870

Our office was support for them. We drag make recommendations based on all the staff work they would. So, yeah, you're in a and majority would rule. As long as the Secretary of the Army was one of the majority, there were the other two couldn't vote him out.

00:29:54.880 - 00:30:13.500

Okay, so it was his. He had the final vote. Anyway, That just gives you a nutshell of our system. I mean, a personnel system. And it was It worked well. And, uh, what year did you retire? I retired in 98. Okay. And in December 31st, 99 everything closed down, the system ended, and then they went into their into into the system.

00:30:13.500 - 00:30:29.610

They have now, and they pretty well kept those employees. They call them pre treating employees. Those employees who were working up to that point in time if they remained with the Panama Canal Authority, which is under Panama now. They kept those same benefits, okay, Except the U S.

00:30:29.610 - 00:30:42.980

Citizens that were kept like pilots and a few other, you know, skills and eat it. They lost their 15% because they because they didn't, you know, they weren't having to recruit, you know, they had people there, and, uh, this worked well for me. It really has.

00:30:42.990 - 00:31:07.490

And I'm proud to say that. Anyway, you have some other stuff on my life there. E o k. No problem. You should have said five. Paul. Really? Thank you so much. I really appreciate. Thank you. Okay. If there's any other follow up of reflections, you'll have you know, my contact information, um, email or call on super.

00:31:07.500 - 00:31:35.490

Yeah, he Oh, yeah. She's a very interesting family. She's got a lot of stuff. Well, if you ask questions that I don't know how he would answer, then That's what dio okay for you. Well, and, you know, we were talking about social life and I was what, what types of, um, hobbies to people when you were growing up.

00:31:35.500 - 00:32:04.510

Are there any distinctive memories you have about? Well, yeah. One of my husband's favorite hobbies was to go bottle digging along the banks of the canal and, uh, where he extracted numerous bottles that had been discarded during construction days. And he'd bring those home. And I wasn't all that impressed until now that we've retired and live in the United States, I've got them all out on display.

00:32:04.520 - 00:32:27.060

But there dog bottles and chicken bottles and and I'm just a on all kinds of different bottles that were, uh, some of them were medicinal. Some of them held liquor or beer or whatever during the construction day. So, uh, it z kind of fun toe have those and another unique experience that he participated in a zone adult.

00:32:27.070 - 00:32:48.220

They have Explorer scouts in Panama and, uh, they had a yuk a racist. You've probably been heard of those in other interviews where they were ocean to ocean. Uh, racism. Cayugas and Bob participated in one of those as an adult in an over 40 group of men.

00:32:48.230 - 00:33:24.330

They called their Cayuga Cardiac arrest. And, uh, so anyway, he participated in that, and that was kind of a fun thing for him. Other other hobbies and things. A Z mentioned that they had. We have bowling alleys and baseball teams tennis, and you name it everything that you've gotten, the states pretty much was down there and was available to participate in If if you wanted to, you know, we had, uh, skating rink, not ice skating.

00:33:24.330 - 00:33:54.090

But the old wouldn't skates, and we'd have, ah, skate with with roller. Uh, you know, it was had everything. Horses. They had a question. They had golf a lot of golfing down there, swimming. Uh, each of the town sites just about had a swimming pool, uh, in the government town sites and had one in Babylon, Los Rios and core result.

00:33:54.090 - 00:34:18.270

They all had swimming clothes and and your kids out took swimming lessons, and we got our a badge and your be badge and took lessons and all that kind of thing. Mr. Russell, over over the years did you is thinking about your youth and growing up and later years.

00:34:18.240 - 00:34:43.150

What were some of the major changes that occurred in the canal zone? Maybe that you saw or did life appear to be just kind of the same? We'll probably is growing up. Probably were cognizant of changes per se. But I can remember when we, uh when we got TV first.

00:34:43.150 - 00:35:03.080

Of course, that was something Something new and have a black and white TV. That was a big thing. Uh, growing up. Remember at the time you've got the TV, Or maybe what was probably in the fifties and the about 55 maybe in early fifties And, uh, S O, That was significant, Of course.

00:35:03.080 - 00:35:24.270

In 1964 we had the riots in Panama on I was Bob was in the States going to school, But I was there Bible high school when when that was going on. And so there was a change in the sentiment of people there for a while because of, uh, the tensions that came from that in the Panamanian student.

00:35:24.240 - 00:35:48.710

Uh, you know, rioting and everything and wanting the you're just flag come down and all that kind of stuff. But and then, of course, as an adult changes with with, uh, just in general, as we looked for the treaty coming down the pike, you knew it was coming, right?

00:35:48.720 - 00:36:13.170

Yeah. I 1977. Uh uh. You know, pretty much it was announced, and then they had they had a transition period. Uh, you know, and then pretty soon there was no more. The government, us government seems seems to exist like there was no more courts on. There are more police and the hospitals transferred, uh, to the military.

00:36:13.170 - 00:36:39.350

So it became Medoc and your school. Our schools went thio, Department of Defense school system. And so those were changes that we saw going along, and and it necessitated some people getting, ah, transfer of function with their jobs and other people got reductions and forces depending on on your position or what the, uh you know what the situation was.

00:36:39.350 - 00:37:12.930

So we saw changes in that regard, and then our commissaries are us are Panama Canal commissaries sees to it get exist And that was a big change because there again, as we said, the Panama Canal employees could not shop in the military. I didn't have military privileges, So you had to shop on the economy going into Panama City toe to do your shopping, which was on a, you know, opposite end of the canal area and into different traffic and different.

00:37:12.930 - 00:37:56.170

The whole nine yards was completely different. So and and the pricing for for goods was considerably higher, and then some goods you couldn't find, you know, that you were accustomed to having a different brand. So So that was a big change for people. Toe thio, adjust thio and it some folks, as a result of that, um maybe one spouse would try to get a job with the military so that they could have been have that flexibility of being able to shop in the in the army commissary and PX just convenience and and as well as the pricing and everything was so different from than having to shop on the economy.

00:37:56.130 - 00:38:21.900

What were your feelings in, you know, 76 77 about the changes or about the treaty? I mean, what what I mean, what were your feelings? And, uh, do you remember also kind of in general, how people in his own film? Well, I you know, I think there was a mix, obviously, of how everybody felt.

00:38:21.910 - 00:38:48.170

Some people, some people, were afraid. I think that the nepotism with rice once the canal was turned over and that you'd see a lot of positions just given to people that didn't necessarily qualify. And they didn't see the canal. Really? Um, surviving that kind of a thing or maybe politically because of the changing government.

00:38:48.170 - 00:39:11.000

So often you're on the Panamanians and that kind of thing. But I can remember Bob attended. They had they had President Jimmy Carter came down and he went to Fort Clayton. There was a big congregation of of a mix of Americans, military and civilians as well.

00:39:11.010 - 00:39:36.180

Toe. Hear what he had to say about it, you know, and people were angry. Some people were angry and, uh, that kind of thing. And, um and remember Bob saying that he remembered Jimmy Carter saying, I'll never give up practical control of the Panama Canal. Well, of course, that's not what happened, but anyway, there were groups that formed that even went before Congress.

00:39:36.180 - 00:40:02.940

Thio Thio plead the case of continuing the U S involvement in control of the canal. Um, so there was a mix, you know, But the thing about it is that when you think about in reality, I think when you see how the student unrest and the political tensions and the national pride and so forth had grown to such a degree that there had to be some kind of change.

00:40:02.950 - 00:40:33.230

Something had to give, you know. And while we had hopes that maybe it wouldn't be as, uh to the degree that it waas, uh, it really was almost like colonialism. I mean, we had our own schools, our own courts, our own police. You could drive in your car from my house in Balboa, in the Canal Zone into Panama City and get a speeding ticket by a Panamanian police officer.

00:40:33.240 - 00:40:54.460

Then you could drive onto a military base, get a ticket by a military police. US military police come back into Balbo and get a ticket by the canal zone policeman. So you know. So you had all these four jurisdictions in this tiny little country and and you can understand how people would resent that kind of thing in your country.

00:40:54.470 - 00:41:22.550

Uh, and you had the canal zone that that went right through the country of Panama, you know, but so there needed to be a change, and eventually And, uh, this is what it's come, Thio. And but again, I think that things have turned out so well and thinks the canal is running efficiently and and and that's great.

00:41:22.620 - 00:42:09.370

That's great. Did you, when you were way didn't talk much about your work experiences? Could you talk a little bit about your work life? What? It was like, you know, some of your main responsibilities. Uh, well, when I first went back to Panama with Bob and and he was stationed there, I worked with the general counsel, which the legal offices there in the administration building and then transferred, um, to, uh let's see, from there I went thio the police division, and I worked there in the police division, secretary to the chief of police.

00:42:09.380 - 00:42:28.600

And then I worked with the Health Bureau, uh, with the hospitals, and this is all prior to any of this. You know, this is in the early seventies and eighties and that kind of thing. And then I worked with what was called the General Services Bureau and then the fire division.

00:42:29.800 - 00:42:55.160

And then I Then I transferred to the military and I worked with civilian personnel office for the military. That's where I was when I retired as a labor employee relations specialist. What year did you retired? I retired in 1995. What were some of the things you enjoy the most about?

00:42:55.170 - 00:43:21.460

About your work life, Cem, positive work experiences that you have? Well, I I think that again the, uh, commodity that we had with each other and working in the in the offices and the opportunities that we had working for each other it was I was very fortunate.

00:43:21.500 - 00:43:49.220

In each of these areas, toe have really good good bosses, good opportunities and training. They gave a lot of training, uh, provided training courses, even with the military in the personnel area. We were sent to the States for training and, uh, on bet with other personnel list from other military bases.

00:43:49.220 - 00:44:19.000

And the canal company and the commission all had a real good training programas. Well, they had a lot of uh, whether it would be in computer training or language training or different aspects of your areas of improvement. E was was all very good experiences. I felt involved in one reduction in force and for a short time.

00:44:19.000 - 00:44:44.140

But then we, you know, apply again and you get back up again. Mhm. Good experiences. Did you see changes in the schools there you mentioned earlier about the school system moving Thio department defense were there. Did you see where their changes in the educational system for folks in the Canal Zone in the eighties?

00:44:44.140 - 00:45:01.140

And I don't myself, I don't think so. That I saw so much Bob and I never had kids. So we weren't really involved in the school system per se other than with friends who are teachers and that kind of thing, you know, and then he was a teacher with before it went over to Todd's.

00:45:01.790 - 00:45:29.520

But basically, I I don't think there was that much change that interviewing a teacher, they might see say otherwise, as far as some of the requirements that they had toe comply with this. Teachers and schools, you know, uh, kind of a thing, But oh, I didn't experience any or didn't notice any major was a nice opportunity for our teachers.

00:45:29.530 - 00:45:52.430

Once, uh, went to Department of Defense, and then at the end of the treaty, when everybody left, they were able to transfer in their Department of Defense positions to other locations overseas. Eso We have friends who are teachers in Panama with God's who who are now in Japan or over in Germany and that kind of thing.

00:45:52.430 - 00:46:16.850

And and And they many times people see him here at the reunion because they'll come back to the States in the summer and then come to this Panama Canal reunion this summer. So it's, and oftentimes they'll have little many. We here at the reunion have many high school class reunions you've seen, like my class of 1965 is having their, uh, you know, class re union.

00:46:16.860 - 00:46:44.760

This this at this time, and sometimes nurses will get together from Gorgas Hospital, or you'll see teachers have a re union and get together. And so, like Bob said, it's it's it's not a convention. It really is a reunion of friends and families and and, uh, you know, people are spread all over the States and overseas that used to work for the Panama Canal one time or another, or the Department of Army.

00:46:44.760 - 00:47:06.900

And And you just have that common bond. So getting together at this reunion really makes it interesting and fun toe. Say everybody again. Yeah, I've noticed that. It seems that people, even if they haven't seen each other for a long time, there's really a tight bond friendship kind of pick up where you left off.

00:47:06.910 - 00:47:39.790

Did you? Mrs Russell? Did you and your husband leave Panama after after he retired? Yes. Okay. Uh, I retired a couple of years before he did on and during the interim, got things ready, selling things and getting ready to retire. And then I did work as a vendor in in the PX, Uh, you know, getting supplies in that kind of a thing for the PX for a while, but waited for him to retire.

00:47:39.790 - 00:48:05.330

And then we came to the States. What was it like moving to the States and the late I guess, late nineties way. We decided on Florida because the weather was comparable toe to Panama and then weigh had so many friends in this Tampa area pretty much Tampa and ST Pete Clearwater area that had already retired.

00:48:05.330 - 00:48:32.810

And so that's how we decided on this, this particular area. But, uh, it was a little bit of adjustment because although we've been coming to the States back and forth, you know, on vacations and had family living here in the States so that we would visit and that kind of thing So it wasn't like we were, you know, like, it was the first time in the United States or anything, but but, you know, getting used to it.

00:48:32.810 - 00:48:52.990

Well, for one thing, in Panama we always rented our house, you know, from the government. So we didn't own a home. So now you're retired and you're buying a house s Oh, that's that's That's a new experience, you know? And you had thio make your fix Whatever was broken, you didn't call the government to come and fix it.

00:48:53.000 - 00:49:14.430

You know, that kind of thing and s o that was was different, you know, and eso there were adjustments like that, Uh ast faras that goes. But, uh, other than that it was It's like a big, wide, wonderful world that you could get in the car and drive more than 50 miles, you know.

00:49:14.440 - 00:49:36.100

So it was a good thing we're excited about about coming back and living in the States. Basically, we had lived there for, like, 50 years practically because having been born there and grew up there and went back out of having our careers on everything way, we're ready to come to the state s.

00:49:36.070 - 00:50:01.150

What did you miss most about the canal zone When you first moved to the States? I'd have to say one of the things is restaurants. Although there's a lot of restaurants here, Panama had wonderful, wonderful restaurants and I mean, not, like, not change. They were privately owned restaurants and just just reasonable and so, so delicious.

00:50:01.160 - 00:50:16.650

Lots of seafood and the, you know, the typical food of Panama. And, uh, I would say restaurant to us. That was one of the biggest things that we missed and still do. When we go back, we look forward to going back to some of the same restaurants and that kind of thing.

00:50:16.660 - 00:50:33.890

For the most part, most of our friends have have gone, But we do have, uh, a dozen or more friends who still live in Panama who chose to stay there. So, um, way still are able to go back and visit with them and that kind of thing.

00:50:34.460 - 00:50:58.490

Uh, how other people of Panama, our dear, just roast people kind of miss that cultural, uh, mix that, you know, that don't necessarily have up here with Panamanian people and, uh, the Panamanian dancing. And like I said in the Panamanian food and and that kind of thing.

00:50:58.540 - 00:51:13.800

But I think now going back, we see a big change in Panama and I mean, they they're growing and continuing to grow, and it's more crowded. It's more traffic. And it's more, you know, it's not like it waas when we were there, A so far as that goes.

00:51:13.810 - 00:51:34.390

So how often do you go back? Uh, since we've been retired, we've been back. I'd say we've gone back a couple times on cruises, so we've just transited and kept on going or we've that kind of thing. And but we've gone back to stay a couple weeks at a time.

00:51:34.400 - 00:51:56.180

Probably. Maybe. I guess we've been back maybe four, four or 54 or five times. And since we've retired, Okay. Yeah. Are there if you know as you think about your about the re union and and seeing folks you may not have seen for a while in your own high school reunion.

00:51:56.180 - 00:52:16.980

One. What are some of the things you would like right If you were teaching about this or you're trying to educate younger folks about about this period of life, period of time in the canals. And what are some of the things that you think are really important that people know about American life in the canal zone?

00:52:17.950 - 00:52:37.270

Well, I think that from the onset as's faras, the canal goes, I think it, uh, it's kind of doesn't seem to be in the history books a whole lot when you know my my niece is a teacher and it's not, you know, shouldn't teach about the Panama Canal.

00:52:37.450 - 00:53:09.280

And even at the time there in the construction in the opening in 1914, you know, the war broke out, so it got kind of pushed back on the pages of news. I feel like it really didn't come. Uh, the accomplishment of the American people in building the canal, I don't think came to the forefront like it would have otherwise, you know, And, uh, the Panama Canal Museum has what they call the museum in a trunk, and you're probably familiar with that.

00:53:09.280 - 00:53:34.350

And I think that's just such a wonderful endeavor to get the history of the canal and some information about the Panama culture and stuff into classrooms. I think it's a really neat opportunity. But s o, I think I think first of all, it's important that students learn about the canal and the importance of the U.

00:53:34.350 - 00:53:56.340

S had in building that canal. You know, uh, that accomplishment. I think it's very important. And and then, um and then the culture off Panama. You know, all that. We have so many indigenous people. And down there, you know, you've got the sandblast. You've got the, uh, the blimey and and she got Darien.

00:53:56.340 - 00:54:18.960

There's just so many different groups of people groups that and that new, you know, that we were exposed to and that, uh, it's interesting for, uh, I think for people toe, toe learn about and people who traveled to Panama just to see, to see all of that and, you know, and to learn about a little bit about those p or big grossed.

00:54:19.310 - 00:54:42.230

But of course, since my grandfather was one of the construction workers that that, you know, the main thing is that, to me is people know about the construction of the canal and what you're looking place again. Are there any other parts of Mr Russell about your narrative that you haven't had the opportunity?

00:54:42.230 - 00:55:17.020

Thio, did you go over e think we've pretty much touched on my obstacle on everything? Uh, I could tell you a little bit about the invasion. Uh, the early morning hours in December 20th, 1989 my husband and I were awakened by a distant sound of gunfire and we turned on the television.

00:55:17.020 - 00:55:50.710

You had news from the United States over CNN that Panama had been invaded, and that's kind of how we found out about it. And, uh, of course, they were trying to oust the General Manual. Noriega, the Panamanian dictator. And although the invasion was success was successful in getting General Noriega out, there were a lot of, uh, situations that that, uh, cause people toe to be sad.

00:55:50.710 - 00:56:18.910

For example, you know, there are a lot of several deaths, obviously, in all of that and it was a high cost to pay. Perhaps a za matter of fact, one of the Americans who died was a friend of ours, and she was a schoolteacher. And she and her husband had been at a friend's house and on their way home, driving through the canal zone area, Uh, they slowed down because they saw some men with guns and they thought that they were U S troops.

00:56:18.910 - 00:56:39.680

Perhaps, But they were. They were thugs from Noriega and they fired into the car and she was shot. And eso she lost her life. That was 11 very close friend of ours that died from that. And then and there were some young people who had been at it because it was a Christmas time.

00:56:39.680 - 00:56:58.940

I have been to a party, you know, And they got, uh, in between the crossfire and all. And, of course, in Panama as well, you know. But for the most part, once it was all over people. Panamanian people were out there beating their pots and pans and in celebration on happy.

00:56:58.950 - 00:57:22.560

Glad that Noriega was out of the picture, you know, they felt very, very glad for that. So then during that same time, there were a lot of snipers in the canal area, and we were all way were told not to go toe work unless your job was essential, you know, essential to the canal operation.

00:57:22.570 - 00:57:45.440

So, uh, pretty much stayed home, and they the U. S. Government had what they called blue lines and the highways. And you could only travel where those blue lines were so that you were Gordon directly to and from certain areas. And Bob and I one time one afternoon, we were gonna go over to the all Brooke stop and shop to get some milk and bread or whatever.

00:57:45.450 - 00:58:07.790

And, uh, we noticed that the shelves were practically bare butt. And that was because the people who stocked shelves had come to work. So we ended up helping toe stock the shelves and that kind of thing. Hello. Hi. Yes, that's just Uhh. This is Dr Stanley Theo.

00:58:07.970 - 00:58:35.810

San Diego, tha the's air Cultural Seminar. Guest speaker. He represents the Smithsonian. Tropical research is three Paul earpiece and eat. You're the director of the Aural History program, University of Florida, Florida. That's what you're doing here. You mentioned a good thing a video. And I said, Well, you have that plan to Yeah, yeah, it's just audio.

00:58:37.200 - 00:59:00.150

Yes, I'm doing what I think that moment is doing. A normal history of oil spills their big oil spill of 86 e ne one. Prior to that in about 66 when a ship broke a couple of nautical miles off our marine lab with eso, I'm interviewing a lot of people who were there at the moment.

00:59:00.520 - 00:59:56.540

Uh, imagine oil spills 30 40 years ago. Way a time. Nobody. Nobody seems to be Who's in charge way N Y u So todo a graphic communications, which is? It's a master, basically boils down to a management for the media industry. Working in many companies, communications firms, advertising firms on, um, I'm just, uh, also way got standard managerial training, but classes in media as well.

00:59:57.080 - 01:00:19.940

That's a good school. And he works with, most likely, I mean, if I find lucky, Really nice job, your little stay for a couple of years. But I'm telling him that kind of the metro starting in Parliament I'm a Rotarian on. We just had the director of the Metro.

01:00:20.940 - 01:00:38.840

I don't know who I think you should invite Puerto Roy on. He gave Ah. He was a member of Canal Board, but he's now been put in charge of the Metro. So he gave a fascinating counter. You're gonna start? I didn't know. Just about around the corner.

01:00:39.410 - 01:00:58.950

Hey says that one of the problems of Metro have been developing country Is the image the communication been going from? The Diablos are almost crazy Busses to sort of a modern A. Yeah, and then the culture, You know, the old culture Don't think everything up the windows has to go.

01:00:58.960 - 01:01:21.390

The stations have to be tidy. Eso telling you you gotta maybe join the Metro. They gonna be at it for five years. It's very interesting because it's gonna be a unlike the canal, which is because there was a lot of experience in the canal commission. They fitted out the contracts where it's here.

01:01:21.390 - 01:01:42.340

Nobody's built a metro before Imparato. So it's gonna be a as they call it. Yeah, and mono keen. Yeah s Oh, it's gonna be one company there. Three or four. Bidding should be coming on this July 1 company will build a whole thing. You're ready to find a route they would end up.

01:01:42.340 - 01:02:07.260

But I don't know. Brooke, a ticket booth final start off by traces. Mika, you're going to cologne coming down The classic have several stations along the way. And then there are spruced up as one of the main stations. The old train station at Cinco de Maya.

01:02:07.270 - 01:02:23.770

Yeah. Remember the old train station? A museum. Now they move the museum. So now they're gonna spruced up the old train station so that every one of the main uh huh stations for the metro. Um, and so it's gonna go under us because gonna go under.

01:02:23.780 - 01:03:08.460

He's gonna go when it starts is a But after about five miles will go as it approaches the city and streets get narrower. You remember? I don't know where you know, Fernandez that, uh, you know where Sears used to be? Okay, Two blocks before Sears, he goes under, and then it goes under and it comes out Toby Espana on a serious and terminal there and then by glacial Carmen, be another nice station there for the people in the banking sector in the hotel sector, on the hope of the Social Security Hospital in the university, and that's gonna go under again.

01:03:08.470 - 01:03:28.430

And then it comes out where you know, we're a Marine. Mukula used to be at school right across. It's gonna be another station thing. There's another station in the old Marano because that's gonna develop like crazy. They're gonna It's the last a. Well, now it's gonna It's gonna be like pi tia.

01:03:28.430 - 01:04:04.660

That section used Thio used to be run down barracks and so it's a big chunk of land there, so it's gonna be very posh on the station's gonna be there. That is gonna be the train station met. And then it goes under Smithsonian Tropical Research under US under the National Assembly and then end up at the terminal at the train term at the over right in the oh, well, they'll be, Oh, you know, we owe talk.

01:04:04.670 - 01:04:29.720

His presentation to the Rotarians first shop. It's a metro, and of course, you know you could tell it to Metro. And then there is the actual train train, but painted like a role, uh, everybody like no on, he says. That's what I want to get your attention.

01:04:29.720 - 01:04:54.100

It says when people that when when they named me as half. Chief engineer on the project. I went to meetings. People worry. Listen, Roberto, we gotta say the cultural heritage, I mean way can't just do away with those Rose s. So what you gonna do? How is the Metro going to reflect the culture of Panama City?

01:04:54.110 - 01:05:18.980

So he said, Well, I gotta do something. Thio. And so a friend of his was a matter of fact, uh, bus pain. Er hey, prepared like a a slide. And Sylvie. It's funnier than hell, because the first shot of his presentation, it's like a whole Metro brand new that looks like a long A Each store.

01:05:18.990 - 01:05:40.880

There's what they call the Pablo, the guy who gets out and starts. It's funnier than now way. Yeah. And then once he gets the attention, when he stands on the project, how they do it and then link with the Metrobus, which is bitter things we can run a bit.

01:05:40.880 - 01:06:13.840

The metrobus, which is kind of funnel passengers todo stations to the station's modern Busses. And then you'll use the same thank you metro car mental card for the Metro, for the Busses, even for the taxes. You way. Well, I was surprised that with this government, you know, previous government has sent to the bus Taxi drivers, you gotta pay in your bus.

01:06:13.850 - 01:06:36.030

Your cab? Yellow? No way. I would say nonetheless, this time they gave him a multi. Might on now they're all yellow. Surprised me because it was very an article is one of the most An article aspect was yes. Now they're yellow. I said a friend of mine brings into the airport.

01:06:36.030 - 01:07:07.860

He fixed Smithsonian people. He was one of those. I'm never gonna paint. It s o E. What? Editor's note. There was a pause in the recording. Now the interview resumes the country doing so well and progressing like that. You know it, Ximenes A little tiny country, Third world country, you know, like he said, throw the trash and keep on going on, you know?

01:07:07.870 - 01:07:27.420

But they're they're they're finding out about about the ecological damage and all of that that could do they really be getting up catching up? Yeah. You know, I mean, if you were to go to Panama and see all of the high rises and the just, it's just amazing.

01:07:29.580 - 01:07:53.090

Do we, uh, Mrs Russell, I was thinking uh, there's one or two questions I was gonna ask you earlier. Um oh, yeah. If you had had the opportunity Thio finish all of your your prepared narrative? Yes, I think, I think Uh huh. Okay. Mhm. Thank you.

01:07:54.280 - 01:08:06.610

All right, well, I think we'll go ahead. Unless there any other thoughts you have, We'll go ahead and conclude. Okay. Okay. Well, I thank you. All right. Well, thank you so much.