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This is Candace Alice and Pete Foster on July 7th, 2011 in Orlando at the Panama Canal Re union. Talking about living in the Panama Canal Zone. Eso usually where I like to start is right at the beginning. How you came to be in the zone or how your family came to be in the zone and you're ready for Meteo.

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Go ahead. OK, well, uh, basically, I'd have to go back to my parents first. Oh, to get to the zone. And, uh, my mom and dad were of they were born in, came at the Cayman Islands and they were British subjects. And my dad was a C captain that had licenses for both the square Riggers on and steam on board the Yeah, to give you a little information on the island that I'm talking to.

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Cayman Islands. There's three islands in the Middle Island. There's a large island, a middle I'd only a small out, and the middle island was discovered mainly by shipwreck seek ships. That and the Middle Island was in the initial stages of its discovery and all divided up by ah into five sections that were ah, whatever sea captain discovered are planted.

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Stayed there. Uh, they laid out there portion of flam on there. Uh, my great great great great great grandfather was a sea captain whose ship the hit the island and had a shipwreck. So his portion of the island was called the bluff, which was 100 ft hype bluff that went almost the whole length of the island and old maps.

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You'll see that area marked foster land. And from there my dad became a sea captain also. And but, uh huh, during that time, in a little time, the my my mom and I'm my mom's parents We're, uh, killed were washed away in the tidal wave that hit the island.

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Yeah. And so my mom survived, and her uncle and aunt lived in Mobile, Alabama at that time, brought her over to Mobile, and she was raised in Mobile and my dad's ah, primary port. He was He became a C captain of a cargo ship that plied between the United States and South America.

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And these group of companions that were in mobile Ah ah was where my mom and dad met each other. They did not know each other on the island. But they met in Mobile, Alabama, and they were both. They both became a naturalized U S citizens. So my dad, of course, was going his ship.

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He was taking his ship between United States and South America and in those days, to the for cargo ships. The sea captain, uh, took his family with him if he wanted to. So Onda, my oldest brother, was born in mobile. And they were My dad had a a forge Teoh Teik cargo down to Ecuador.

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And as when they were going through the canal, he had he stopped canal because he had to go down the Atlantic and then go cross over to the Pacific to get Ecuador. So and at the canal zone, you getting ready to go through the locks he stopped, had to stop in Chris Tobel, which is on the port on the Atlantic side of the to refuel, uh, in refueling when they I guess it was a slow process in those days, were going back to 1929 and the crash came the and the crash came in in the States and the company owning that owned the ship that my dad was captain on.

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Ah. Could not be moved because a lawsuit litigation started. And so he was. He had to stay with the ship, and it couldn't be moved simply because of the litigation and all that sort of stuff. So after three years, Well, in 29 at the same time, my mom, I was born in 1929.

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And my, uh, mom, then they got a on apartment in colon, which is the Panamanian, uh, Atlantic, uh, city in this, the second largest city in Panama. All and the through the well being born in colon. Of course, at in those days, uh, I had be registered in the U.

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S. Embassy and all that sort of stuff that thio get to make. They wanted to make sure that, uh, later on in years, I would be recognized as a US citizen on And, uh, But after that, after living in colon for about three years 1935 my litigation was over.

00:07:04.340 - 00:07:42.080

My dad could leave, leave the ship alone, and so he had to get a job. And he, uh, got a job when they get to locks. And and at that time, of course, the canal furnished homes for Uh huh, their employees and the Uh huh, The Panama Canal Commission.

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They didn't know I'm getting into a little discrimination problem that they did the they when they built the canal, a major portion of their working, uh, employees were West Indian. And that's and so when they hired my dad, they didn't know at that time whether to put him on as a U.

00:08:20.220 - 00:08:51.550

S citizen or something different. Non us citizens put it that way. Now they were used to, uh, mostly, uh, colored people working on. They call those non U. S. Citizens and and in that time, they had established a payment way of designating Whether you were the United States citizen or whether you are a non United States is they called the United States Citizens.

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The gold drove on and they were paid in gold in U. S. Dollars. The non U. S. Citizens were on the silver role and they were paid the local salary. So sits there was some kind of discussion on it. There they let us live in the gold section, the U.

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S. Section, but Onley by near the railroad tracks. Oh, my goodness. So there was some discrimination there. Definitely that well, actually, yes. Yeah. We had a French couple that also was hired by the canal, and they lived on the non U. S side of the railroad tracks and Onda.

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So we lived on the US side, But on Lee, we had to stay close to the edge. Eso that discrimination was based more on citizenship then, you know, because if you were white European, you'd still be put on that silver standard because you were not okay.

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That's interesting on eso uh, we But I found that Uhh. Of course, his pay scale was lower than the other, his other US friends and all. And I went to U. S schools there in GATT tune and all and surprising thing about it is that even during Christmas time, the people in the town and get tune would give us bags of food, so they guess they felt sort.

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But was it difficult growing up for that reason? Was there discrimination against you? Or were you guys Did you guys ever struggled financially? Well, I guess I guess my parents had have struggled little financial. My dad also, uh, bought a boat. And he, uh, on his non work days, he he would take the boat on hey, had two helpers on the boat that they would go up the, uh, to the some of the islands and fill the fill their barge with the barge with sand and come back for them to have sand build houses with the cement.

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No. And so s So he made up the difference in pay through his own little business to and But they they treated me the kids that there was no difference. Parents. Now you're talking about some old Southern people. Uh, way had a little Ah, a little bit of ah difference There we there were two sides.

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One, I guess the ones from the north and all, uh, treated us. There was no difference. The South was Southerners were a little s, so there was definitely attention that does anything stand out in particular Anyone experience or just the way they treated you just the way they treat me.

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I way had the commissaries. That's what they're produce stores was And it was everything was run by the US government by the Panama Canal. Everything? Yeah, and eso and get tuned. Where we lived through the they they're commissary was divided into two portions. The upstate it was a two story building and the up up the second floor was and of course, was the gold role.

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They called it the gold side. And the first floor was the silver role, and people in the in would have and the they did not use cash in purchasing. What you did was you. Ah, at the beginning of each month, you told them how much you wanted issued, uh, and and cut what they call commissary books.

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And they were had strips of one penny each in it by a $15 commissary book or a $5.1 or went like that. And when you went through the line to pay the cashier, they would tear off the amount of strips, and some of them are. Some of the cashiers were outstanding.

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I mean, they take that that thing that's fall down, then tear it off and you wonder, How did they? Yeah, but they did eso we had because of the of the confusion of some people not wanting to recognize, I guess on the headquarters didn't wanna recognize this as equal us citizen?

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Uh, they they decided then so that just to protect themselves, I guess. But we my mom and dad could buy either gold or silver commissary books. So what they would do is, of course, on the silver roll. It was a They had some bomb, uh, foods and all a lot cheaper in the first floor than it was on the second floor.

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The meats were different types of meat and all, uh, it's like you in a butcher shop. You might, uh, and they're really upscale butcher shop. You wouldn't find tripe, right? But in the in the silver role commissary, they had the lower cost, meats and all. Tripe was one of things like that.

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So of course I would my mom buy whatever she thought was better than cheaper in either commissary. I mean, but But for me, uh, the way I got along, it was a being by the railroad tracks and later on in our ah time and get to we moved.

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They had a down at the very bottom of the road hill. They had what they called the corral, and that was the motor transportation today. But in those days they still used horse drawn, uh, buggies and all are too transfer work, load all that sort of stuff.

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And at the bottom. Then they had a one cottage. Why they built the cottage. Don't ask. But it was 11 cottage and then the colored town, which was a silver town doing. But in those days, we called them colored colored town. They were they were nice.

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They were okay. And that for me, it was, I guess, being a kid and all, I guess, fun. But in order Thio in order to have money. Also, since my mom and dad didn't give me a once at all, they I would go into the bush in there and during the construction of canal with little, uh, the workers, families and all would, uh wherever they were, they build themselves a house and they would have a garden in the garden.

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Some of them group pineapple in various lines, various things. So they would, uh, I decided that it would I might be able to get by selling these high class Americans. Uh, some groceries that they couldn't get her couldn't keep, so I'd go out into the bush and hunt for a lime tree patch.

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And then I would sell, make bag about a dozen limes per bag and sell it for 10 cents each. Go to the commissary. And And they would they would purchase thes, uh, limes for me. And then I did. And then, uh, they had another plant called Kapok.

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I don't know if u k pocket was was the cotton used in those days? It was similar Very similar Thio, uh, cotton balls. But it if grew on a tree rather than the wake true cotton is. And when they were blooming, I would get those in, and the women in the town would use the kapok for, uh, filling the cushions and all in their house.

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And also, the kapok was used for life preservers, the floating life preservers. Okay, so it sounds like a very enterprising. So yeah, and then in the pineapples were another thing that I would get. But the main main thing about that was for me was that the colored people would tell me Pete up over there and that little there's a patch over there ready for you to pick, and then Pete Kapok is out now and they would about How old were you?

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I was doing that through from the I think it was a 3rd 3rd grade until the sixth grade. And I did that. Actually, the other thing that I do is I as I got older and I guess I started in about when I was seven years old, I took boxing lessons and then they would have Children boxing on Monday nights in the clubhouse.

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And if you want, you got two tickets to the movies. So I made a point that every Monday I would I would box for buy two tickets for to go to the movies. And, of course I made sure that I won. I was very good at and yeah, this.

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Then I decided that, Hey, if I call bingo for him in those days, they for bingo, they had bingo every Yeah, bingo was on. It doesn't matter. Monday night's not Monday nights, either. Friday nights, I guess it was, and I call bingo. Of course, you didn't have the amplifiers and the mix and all that sort of stuff, and I'd get a dollar dollar to call Bingle.

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It was about a a two hour job. And then after bingo, we would at the clubhouse. Of course, that's where way purchased food and all. They had a sewed accountant a and ice cream there. And But I could get okay. And then on top of that, the way they handled it is that they would have a ticket.

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Five mark 5, 10, 15, 20 up to a dollar and the waiter than would punch the amount of money that you had to pay. And then you take that out to the cashier and pay. And, uh so I could I would get Clem shake now, claim Shake is I don't know whether you know what Clem was.

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Clemens milk backwards. Okay, okay. And that's a powdered. There's a powdered milk and they in those days they didn't have the liquid milk, fresh milk for cereals and all they use Klim. And in fact, I found it. They still sell it in countries in of in Central America.

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And I'd get a claim shake hot roast beef sandwich and french fries four 25 cents. Wow, It might have cost more, but my the waiters were all on the silver role. They were colored. Andre lived across the board. Some of them lived close by me on and I never paid more than 25 cents for anything I because they would always have some tickets.

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Thio give me for 25 cents, and they would all only punch 25 cents in my ticket. So that was that was good. You kind of illuminated this, um, interesting race dynamic in the area. And we found, you know, some people may not have been aware of any kind of tension or didn't perceive it as even existing there.

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But you've kind of, you know, um, told a different story, I guess. And, you know, just this business with the railroad tracks and stuff, like what your family went through. So, um, in a broader sense, what would you say? Growing up the state of the race, relations were and and was there the heavy, you know, tension that there were with the southerners who were in the zone.

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Was there any violence are issues? Or was it No. Yeah, they accepted it the way it was, but, uh, they they would I had friends that the maybe the father was a US citizen that married a Panamanian girl. Now, if they had uh huh, some of my friends that I went to school with that I grew up with.

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We're Panamanians, not Panama. They were US citizens because they were born, uh, their parents were U S citizens. But is this the only one side of the family Had to be a U S. Citizen to begin with. So the mother let's say the mother is is a Panamanian, and the father is the U.

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S. And the the child is born and between the two of them and they grow up together Uh, the the hidden Ah, discrimination. Is that a good example that I would have Is that when you when you put in to move to a house with within the canal zone uh, you were assigned the house according to your job?

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Of course you're If you're on the gold roll those you live, you had the ah authority to live in the if U S town basically. And but in that same under that same cat, if the father is on the goal role and, uh, but married to a Panamanian and the Children are U S citizens and we go, they would goto school with me and all that sort of stuff.

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Uh, when it came to assigning houses, uh, it was on a typically a service portion. A service assignment. If if you were had one year worked with canal one year more than than another person putting in for the same house, the one with the most service would get the house, but it didn't hold.

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When the the family with us and Panamanian, uh would, uh, they would give it give the assignment to the was experience. That's both. Both us. Both parents are U S citizens. What was the quality of the housing, like throughout the zone? Well, the the houses when I was growing up, they still had the old, uh, what we call the old French quarters That were four family.

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Uh huh. Still there in Balboa. It was there and And get tuned. Get Tune was a newer part of the town. But, um and then, ah, when when they started to build the third set of locks right after right during and after World War two, they had they considered those employees, uh, working on a special Engineering project s I P.

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Here's is what we call them and the they then for them, they had to build those towns. Really? Uh, fast. Uh, so they built 12 families in one building, and, of course, the houses were Uhh, not double wall between apartments. If you flush the toilet and your bathroom, the other neighbor next thio can hair and their back to back.

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I mean so And it would be a straight through where you have the kitchen and bathroom bedroom, a little living room in the porch. And it was All of them were screened in, and they were all wood. And of course, they were on stilts. All the houses were in those days were on stilts.

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And then they have protection. A metal protection around the top of the post or the stilts with painted with some kind of creosote. Actually, Thio stop, uh, creatures from growing up going into your house. Did you remain in the same house most of the time? You were there.

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Did you move around? I lived in every town except except Pedro McGill. E lived in an kind. We had house in an kind. I lived in Balboa of Boca. Um, Gamboa get tombs where we started from and they had and well, they had old crystal ball.

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Cristobal was where the ports were off, and then they had new Christo. New Cristobal was a complete Panchen L Town under the jurisdiction of the Panamanians. So are police were Panamanians, and, uh, but they even the primary hotel for the Atlantic side built by the canal was in that areas on.

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Of course, they had the most beautiful salt water pool I grew up with, and and then right next to it was four de Lesseps, which they had 16 inch Canon is that were to protect the breakwater from any attack on the youths. Basically, I guess the houses in New Cristobal were older.

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What? They had cottages and and duplexes and up and down, up and down was a duplex with two fours. And they also had four families and two families. Uh, some two families where the whole bottom almost built, similar to a four family and then another family of above.

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What high school did you go to? I went to both both of them. I went to Cristobal High School and In my sophomore year, my parents were transferred. Thio Gamboa. They finally, that that they recognized my parents as you equal us citizens us shortly after the war simply because when they started to have their military coming back, some of them were naturalized U S.

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Citizens, and they couldn't discriminate against their own military coming back. And so right after the war, they, uh, were instructed to recognized all naturalized U. S. Citizens as equal. Hmm. And so they immediately they had to recognize my dad's captain's license. Mhm. And he got He was put on a tugboat as captain of the tugboat there, And, uh, so that let's see where we're going here.

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Now. What year did you graduate? High school, 47. 1st over high school. I am my junior. My senior? No. My sophomore year. They went to Gamboa and get to Balboa High School. You would have to take a train. They had no no good road. And so three kids and gamble would take a train to Balboa, Uh, high school.

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And, uh, the town's the elementary schools. Each town had their own elementary school. High school was Balboa, Cristobal. And, uh, I started out in Cristobal High School, my parents were transferred to Thio Gamboa, And in my sophomore year, I went to Balboa High School. But I had a little difference of opinion with the principal.

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Well, or he had a difference of opinion of me. But in, uh, there was one teacher that when I 1st, 1st week that I went over there, that, uh, Spanish teacher and I made the mistake of correcting her Spanish, and she sent me down to the office to the principle.

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That was the first week. And of course, I got a lecture from the the principle that makes me back to the room. And then the next day, I was still unfamiliar with high school, and I it was about, Oh, I would say about 20 seconds or 30 seconds.

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Uh, late first class. She sent me down to the principal and it became a game with me, and I figured Okay, well, the next day, I'd get there right on time. But the day before the next one, then I would Oh, slow down. All of a sudden, I'm a minute late.

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I'd stand outside the door and wait until bell rang. What look at my watch and step in. And finally, about halfway through the year, And, of course, I got along flying wall with all the other teachers, but 50 principal lost his temperature. And when he lost his temper, I threw a think, though, at him.

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Uh, yeah, uh, in those days, your pens were you dipped it any okay? Yeah. At the principal? Yep. And it left him with a, uh, a little mark. Oh, my goodness. So were you kicked out of the school or Hey, didn't suspend me because he was one that caused the problem.

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And But he said, Pete, how in the heck can I get rid of you? And I said, Well, Ah, yes. Ellis Ellis, stir something like that was his name. I don't Even Esther. Esther was his name. Said all you have to do is that and Gamboa Gamble is the middle of the things.

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His own area. So the train, the train going the panel railroad train going, uh, to Balboa would meet with the train going to Cristobal. And so I said, Well, look it, I want to go to Christo Bow. You want me to go to Christo just talked them into giving me a pass because we have school passes for the train.

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Give me a pass instead to go into the Balboa, Give me a pass to go to Crystal Ball and I said, You won't see me in this building for years And he said, Is that all you need? I said, that's all I mean, just just so he said, OK, I'm not going to see you next year because you're gonna go Cristobal, and that's what I did for it.

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But I had Thio take the train every morning to Cristobal and then walk through Colon, walk through the town to Cristobal High School. And when I left Cristobal, I left it in under good terms with all the teachers. And, uh, so they made your prince the principal.

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It was hoped that time made sure that all my class, all my days classes were first class was a study law and and then so that would give me time to get to the school. And then, of course, and I was for this class president both junior year and senior year, and I did all right and I graduated half year.

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I had so many credits and but the that was my Balbo. But it was nice because then we living in Gamboa. I could bring my crystal ball friends when they had a party or anything like that. I could bring my crystal ball friends over and they knew me and they would bring their babble friends.

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And so that the what it did was it gave them a group of students that intermingled and we knew each other. And so when the games were going and all afterwards, it was just a big friendly feelings, harsh feelings or anything like that I started to.

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But when I got too involved in the, uh, with being class president all and I, uh And then when I was going by train, I couldn't stay after school Dio So I didn't but women when I was freshman and and then and then in the junior when I became a junior 11th year, I, uh, um, started.

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I didn't like baseball, I was in track. I did the track for a while, and but I got too involved, not only with student government, student government, but I also got involved with my wife. Eyes that when you guys met in high school? Yes. We went together from junior year.

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Mm, too. Last year she passed away. I'm sorry about that. Had 63 years of marriage, and that's amazing. Two years in high school way. We were teenagers that that mature together and into adulthood. And so we That's really incredible. And then you got the course. Yeah, I guess after I graduate, I graduated in January rather than in June.

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Visit my credit, Graduated early. You had other credits? Yeah. Um, what was it like? Um, you know, going to high school during World War Two. And that was happening overseas. What was his own like zone? Like, uh, well, at that time when, uh when, uh, Pearl Harbor was hit.

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And then they went on the 11th, they went thio. Yeah, to, uh, Germany. Uh, no. Yeah. Germany declared war on Germany on the 11th of December on actually, my wife left the United States. They packed in 1941. They packed her father got a job in the canal, and so they packed up December 7th and left.

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They were on headed for the Panama Canal on the Panama Canal. ships. They had three ships on, uh, left on the Panama Canal ships on December 11th and arrived five days later in the zone. But they were a lot on their black on board the and on December 7th, not only is it a Pearl Harbor Day, that's the day of my wife passed away.

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Yes, so But she's from she's from Ohio. And But anyway, get back to that. The that A soon as the canal, okay, had a feeling that to me, they had a feeling that we were going to go to war. And, uh, when when Pearl Harbor was hit, there was a rumor, and it was probably true that the Japanese had subs headed for the canal.

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And what? What? We started, Of course. Right immediately, we had blackouts at night, all the cars lights where they would have a one inch strip of of masking tape on the light headlight and paint the rest black, and then it take off. So all you had that was a little strip.

00:43:13.730 - 00:43:39.980

Yeah, And then, uh, they had the towns had smoke pots placed in various locations. These smoke pots were about this high and and the stack going up was about like that. About 4 ft high. Yeah. And the big bull hair that was had black oil in it.

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And when they let him, of course, what that would do with they would put a layer of of smoke black smoke over the town and also over the canal and in the canal, they had lines of every 100 ft or 500 ft. I know. But of these, well, it was like a blimp, but it's a big balloon.

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You've seen them. If you've seen any World War two movies in England, they would have these, uh, blimps balloons up there, but that were shaped where they were smaller than a on then you're Goodyear Blimp. They were about one third the size of our one quarter the size.

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But they had those cables up floating up above the canal right down the strip of the canal. That was for airplanes taken in those days there, Ted. Propeller airplane to me. Could go be alone. No. And then the, uh then we got right in our backyard was a gun emplacement.

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Anti aircraft gun emplacement. Soldiers come onda course, we we do enter make them with them and the court. Sometimes we'll we'll make a big dish of gross campo or spaghetti and all, and take it down to their tents. And they were by their tents. But they had those strategically placed around the town, and and then they built every town, had bomb shelters to go to and then built 12 or three bomb shelters that were a small room, I would say about the square, about about the same size, that darker part of the wall way would, uh, then in the walls were about a good 2 ft thick cement and And that would be our bomb shelters if they came.

00:45:59.990 - 00:46:28.470

But and then on the the breakwater that entering the canal on the Atlantic side, of course, they had a lot of German subs that were out there, and so they would in the breakwater would be a bunch of blocks or whatever, uh, closing the bag so that they had to come through.

00:46:28.480 - 00:46:49.580

You could Only the ships could only pass through this, and in that area there they had submarine. That's a big, uh, nets wired nets with their Their diameter would be about 1 ft in diameter to catch the subs. And what have you that would enter in?

00:46:50.380 - 00:47:24.080

Uh, in fact, when I got out of school, the final finally, with first, uh, job I had with this with with it was with military. I was net depot where they made the nets, and I was, and these notes were metallic made out of wire. Yeah, they were made out of, uh well, the wire was about twice the size of this court.

00:47:24.090 - 00:47:46.120

Yeah. And it was, uh, woven, uh, up into. And it actually, it was well went upto maybe three quarters of an inch in diameter all the way around. And they would intertwine those with like that. Have you guys ever catch a submarine? They know they never.

00:47:46.130 - 00:48:17.090

They never came in that close because they also had on the Atlantic side, we had Coca solo on Coca Solo was a sub base a submarine base, in addition to a ah, um, seaplane base. So you see, pains were the P B. M's in PB wise, they were big.

00:48:17.970 - 00:48:47.160

They were the hurricane hunters. They would go out and fly around the area to check on on so that the way didn't have any we've had. We had about two or three scares. But throughout the canal they had these big smokes, most pots and all. Were those lit often?

00:48:47.160 - 00:49:11.300

Or now they only they only had thio Lightem about. We only had Well, I would say no more than can't remember anymore for maybe four times. But they were all alert. And of course, they put up a raid sirens in every town and all. But what year did you say that you left his own?

00:49:11.310 - 00:49:41.550

Just like I left in 80 to 1982. Okay, so you were there for the for the 64 riots. 59 64? Yeah, I was on the Atlantic side, on the Atlantic side. So the, uh, I looked out, could look out. I was technician. Telephone exchange at that time way were no more than 250 ft away from the border.

00:49:42.090 - 00:50:04.760

My goodness, they, uh, they killed the first one that was killed was right outside of our building. First American soldier, that was hit. What was that in 59 1st? Well, the 59 it was a different one. This was a 64 the 59 1 was uh huh.

00:50:05.560 - 00:50:46.730

Just rioting. But no, uh, no shooting or like that. And we were attack that time we we lived in. See, it was 59 way had winds. We still live. The new Cristobal New Cristobal was turned over Thio Panama in 59. That was our high school, the whole town hospital on the and that was turned over.

00:50:46.730 - 00:51:19.750

So we But at the same time, uh, theme Navy had abandoned Coco Solo. So we were moved through the officers quarters and all were were refurbished. And we were moved out of New Cristobal, uh, to Coco Solo. And that's another story. Yeah, um, how did people feel about New Crucible being turned over in 1959 zone?

00:51:19.750 - 00:51:51.900

Ian's, the Americans? That they was their resentment about that kind of building. They basically they didn't, uh, those of us that were living there, uh uh, did not like it did not like what they did to us. We were way had. By that time I had a a cottage right across from the high school of Big Cottage, right across from the high school with a big avocado tree that gave you the best pairs in in the world.

00:51:52.460 - 00:52:26.770

And I had a Let's see, June was about She was about three years old. No. June with Yes. You. He was? Yeah. Five. She was over there. She was five. And but it was a nice town. Way got along fine with Panamanians. Most of most of my most of are close friends.

00:52:27.350 - 00:53:07.190

Yeah, we're on the Panamanians. Okay. Mhm. They way. My closest friend. It was like a brother almost better closer than my brothers on. I was middle one, sort of, uh, they they didn't know I was there, uh, was a Swiss his his parents owned a jewelry store and they were Swiss, and Chuck and I checked for it, and I That's great.

00:53:08.050 - 00:53:41.430

The Swiss started our friendship when I was in junior high school, and and, uh, they they And then when he graduated, of course, he went to school. And they sent him to Switzerland to go to school to watch school. Oh, and he came back married. His wife wife was from Lausanne, Onda.

00:53:43.650 - 00:54:08.600

She couldn't speak anything but French on. So my wife took her under her arm, and in three months, she was speaking French. I mean, she was speaking. She was speaking French all the time. She was speaking English fluently and Spanish fluently. Wow, it was amazing. Yeah, but they picked that up.

00:54:08.610 - 00:54:35.570

They were like sisters to where they were. They they they they were very close, but the uh huh. I was in an elevator in this hotel halfway up. I was in there 45 hours and 45 minutes about God because they lost close to Yeah, I lost power this hotel in this hotel.

00:54:35.580 - 00:54:57.420

When it was thought this was Let's see, when we started, it was back in the late eighties, way first moved out had and yeah, it was one of those that were in express one that went only so many forwards. And then you had, uh there was no way to get out.

00:54:57.430 - 00:55:24.670

No escape. But anyway, s 1964 the big riot. That kind of changes When he said it kind of changes the whole atmosphere. 59 2 of us. My wife and I. We're the first ones. And and colon they were during that time they were stopping people us people from going into colon itself.

00:55:26.240 - 00:55:55.180

Except for us. Two of us that way they were told by the police and the fire department to please leave us alone and way would, uh, go down uh, Main Street, Thio, 11th Street. And that's where the fire station was in the police station. All but they gave us safe passage to visit our friends.

00:55:55.760 - 00:56:31.400

And And after the first week after that, Panamanians e yes, they called it the 2030 Club. You had to be in that age group and that was a Panamanian club. And they were having a convention in David up way up in the interior and they decided they wanted I had enough of my personal friends, largest personal friends that belonged to the club, and they wanted us to go up there with them.

00:56:31.410 - 00:56:58.550

And so we were the first Americans back after 59 in two towns on and they were receptive. Thio, of course. Of course. Back in those days, you I mean, you could Oh, this gringo now and a gringa. And then they refer to my wife is a gringa, You gringa! You want us squirt! Then in their favorite, Drake was squirting Skorton.

00:56:58.930 - 00:57:30.550

Ah, the they're special alcohol Beverage. It e can't think of the name of it now. I will come to me tomorrow. But the 64 riot the 1st, 1st soldier was killed. They lined the soldiers up 100 ft from us Children as well. Shoulder length way without any guns without any bullets.

00:57:31.200 - 00:58:13.500

And the first one was shot. And then Then it was changed. It was It was I would have thio drive at night, uh, to get get by town because we live in Coca Solo then and to get in order to get to work and all. And it was the sharpshooters for the military were in our building and we would when When they were getting ready Thio they had the gas stations where across the street colon gas stations and pick up would come fill up with gas and go and then come back again.

00:58:13.510 - 00:58:37.780

Fill up with gas. And that was for making them a Molotov cocktails and eso They put an end to that real quick. She started to do do some of their own shooting on, but they never never use the real bullets. They used a grenades with a gun and they shoot.

00:58:38.400 - 00:59:15.070

Uh, it was one of the grenades would go in, bounce and go into the into the drivers seat of the pick up. That's how they would Mike. It's nerve racking. Yeah, and and the And that turned the 64 riots. I was always, uh, always would tell everybody that when I retire, I'll be the last person standing and waving goodbye to you all on the docks.

00:59:15.080 - 00:59:45.820

But that's sort of sort of turn me off. Hmm. Um, why did you eventually leave the canal zone? I retired. Yeah, I had 35 years of service. I was head of the telephone systems for the canal, the whole canal. And I promised I was part of the treaty.

00:59:46.030 - 01:00:13.230

Implementation, uh, on the communication side on. I had to do a lot of negotiating. Yeah, Not only that, I had promised them that I would see to it that the whole canal had Elektronik telephone systems. So all the towns and the and on the locks. And I told them when I finished that project, I'm retiring.

01:00:13.240 - 01:00:47.830

I'm getting out of here. And but the the negotiations were hard to take simply because the military wanted to give the kitchen sink away and and the State Department went along with them, would try to go along with him. And of course, I would try to stay to the written portion of there.

01:00:48.290 - 01:01:32.340

It was always an argument with them. I don't have high regards for the State Department. I I saw too many secret portions of the treaty that turn turned my stomach over. And the assistant head negotiator for the canal was you know it in his eighties. Now I'm saying that because I'm a e I mean, but he was in his eighties and he would goes off in the negotiations.

01:01:32.350 - 01:02:12.310

So they had a Carter couldn't get Linowitz to be approved with Congress. So you he waited until Congress was in recess and and then he appointed Linowitz. So Linowitz had six months to be the assistant negotiator. Actually, he was a negotiator, and I could say this much 11 in the documents and all the, uh, linowitz was a director of the Marine Midland Bank.

01:02:13.000 - 01:02:48.420

Panama owed the Marine Midland Bank $362 million and, uh, that $362 and a clause in the treaty was that Panama You paid $362 to pay off their debt with the Marine Midland Bank so that that various things they stop. They wanted to get rid of TNT.

01:02:49.100 - 01:03:30.030

So the cable between the United States and in Panama in those times, they still the satellite was still just coming in that I they At and T had own the cable from from Florida, too. Jamaica and II, TNT own the cable from Jamaica to Panama. And the way they got rid of of TNT was, uh ah.

01:03:32.100 - 01:03:58.530

At and T would not pass any any communications to Panama. Mhm. So I TNT couldn't. They were just a local outfit then and they couldn't compete with the Panamanian, uh, telecommunications. So I TNT went out of this, but anyway, so by 1982 you are ready to get out of there.

01:03:58.500 - 01:04:36.720

Yeah. You too. Yeah. I gave him a day and a half notice. Uh oh. But But I did give him, uh I said I told them, and by that time, they wanted any promotions to be Panamanian, and I refused. And so I was arguing with my, uh, directors, but Mom I told him I would stay as a stay on the job for six months after I retired.

01:04:37.680 - 01:05:13.190

Provided you, they let me a point promote my own. Yeah, And they said, Okay, we'll let you. Whoever you pick, we'll make a chief of the telephone systems. That's not a bad deal. Would you relocate Thio? Uh, well, my mom lived in ST Pete. She they retired and went to ST Pete, and, uh, many of their friends were in that area.

01:05:13.190 - 01:05:34.520

So they settled. There s oh, my dad had died and my mom was getting up in age. She was, so I felt that she needed Yeah, this is so support. Was it difficult for you your wife to do that, you know, to relocate, move out of the zone?

01:05:35.590 - 01:06:09.060

Uh, yeah, because we had way had so many, uh, close friends that it was She basically, she moved away from We moved away from from one person that was more of a sister than her sisters were at that time later on. Now they the her sister, uh what?

01:06:09.060 - 01:06:36.220

She had death. Let's see. 123 sisters, One in the middle. Uh, right after the one That was about two years younger, and my wife mhm got together and go close, and they were really close. And that's good. But no, it was it was a They struggled to do that before that.

01:06:36.780 - 01:07:00.610

I I don't go north anymore. Way used Thio. They wanted us. Uh, they want the Americans to take a least, uh, every two years to get out of the tropics on E I practice that. In fact, the first time I ever went to the United States was with my wife.

01:07:01.680 - 01:07:31.870

I have never, of course, my dad, mom and Dad they up and double the better part of their working life. They didn't have the money on Ben after that. They were saving to retire. So I went thio the States for the first time after I was married on.

01:07:31.870 - 01:08:05.620

Of course, she was from Ohio, so but I made it a point every every two years way had I had we have our vacation. I would save my leave so that I have at least six weeks vacation and when we go up, visit friends and in Pittsburgh and and, uh, Ohio and my brother lived in Michigan, but the other thing, of course, and go down to my mom in Florida.

01:08:05.630 - 01:08:38.680

But I made it a point with my kids, too. Every time we went out, came up, we went to another state. So they are well versed in the United States on, uh, I didn't have it, but I made sure that they had it. Of course, it and the other thing about that that was that we had our friends were our friends were mawr on the Panamanian side.

01:08:38.680 - 01:08:57.980

That doesn't mean they were Panamanian that say that maybe their, their mother or father were, uh, from Europe. A lot of European. A lot of not U S citizens, not U S citizens. They were They were business people and we had way had some, some of them business.

01:08:59.800 - 01:09:28.540

We're Americans that married to Panamanians. But we had the culture to give the kids. When I started with the Swiss people, I remember so I was astounded. They had me for lunch the first time they had me for lunch, uh, over at their house. And, of course, the natural thing is to pick up a sandwich.

01:09:28.550 - 01:09:51.280

They had they had a nice sandwich here, and so I picked it up to eat and they lift at me. Had Pete. Don't you use your fork and knife? I said, yeah, but I got a sandwich here. He said, no way with life and four and various.

01:09:51.290 - 01:10:22.230

There was a tremendous in the culture, Uh, and in the food difference is the difference was so big. And, uh, in those days, uh, Swiss colony wines were the only wines that were exported out of the United States, and they were dessert wine. And the American our American friends would would drink this dessert wine while I'm drinking French wine and the best bond.

01:10:22.230 - 01:10:59.880

Then they bring over every since they were, uh, also the father was a council. It, uh So he got thio once or twice a year, they would ship some Swiss wine over, and they'd always give us a case of it. But we got to, uh, uh, our girls got a chance to have a different culture and on and on top of that, they knew how to drink.

01:11:02.360 - 01:11:36.490

Uh, when they we're away from us, they that responsibility, the response. But they knew that the maturity Well, you know so many of the kids drink to get drunk and and way drink to enjoy the taste. It might take me for a little glass off Manhattan might take me a half an hour before I can finish that glass because and our kids were with the wine and all our kids we're taught to.

01:11:37.860 - 01:12:12.690

If you don't like the taste, don't drink it and Onley drink so much and enjoy. If you can enjoy the taste, then stay away from it. And that's good. Blessing that Z and then then way would. The way my mom and dad started was they would go toe lunch at, uh and of course, you're going back back to the thirties and we would go to the lounge or bar whatever you wanna call it.

01:12:12.700 - 01:12:32.620

And then if they had a child with him and they ordered their with their meal, the child always got what they called a pony. A little, a little, just a little but two ounces a day the most. But the child always got. They always brought a pony for the child.

01:12:32.630 - 01:12:58.250

And so heck, from the time I was six years old, I was tasting beer, but I don't like beer that up until up until about 20 years ago, I started drinking. Well, I started actually drinking beer when I was a copper. Smith of fairness. Okay, I don't want to rush, but I know that they're going to need to use this room in a couple minutes.

01:12:58.260 - 01:13:18.070

Check the time there's a new There's an interview at four. Very good. Eso Maybe just just as a kind of closing thought you could tell me about how you know your thoughts and feelings and opinion about the U. S. Turnover of the canal zone. And you know how you think they're doing that now?

01:13:18.550 - 01:14:00.270

All right, the to turn over the canal zone, I think, actually, I knew a lot of the Panamanian politicians they started out. All they wanted was to, uh, right at that time they were getting Panama was being paid $250,000 a year, Uh, for the use of and that, uh, that changed all they all panel when it was because in Spain, us was paying, uh to 20 year.

01:14:00.740 - 01:14:43.900

They wanted to be equal toe, and instead they gave him the canal and pay them to take it there, there. Uh, just a few more minutes. All right, Huh? Mm. This laundries. Yeah. No, the that. Now the U S. I think did the US wrong. And And I was because I didn't I didn't think Panama would would, uh, be ableto handle it.

01:14:43.910 - 01:15:21.410

Mm. But I've been down there a couple of times, and I'm very pleased with their very pleased with what they've done. They've done things that with the U S. Would never done. And they there they're better off, That's all. Yeah, they're better off. Good. But I didn't think highly of Carter he had at us that he when he came down, he made sure that he would be stay in the military base with military.

01:15:23.240 - 01:15:40.980

The military. We're commanded to be in civilian clothes on. They wouldn't let any Pan Canal people, except the higher ups know on the base in order to see Carter. So All right. Well, thank you so much for your time. I'm gonna stop on this