00:00:00.240 - 00:00:23.780

This'll is Matthew Weitz Samuel Procter Oral History Program where it's about 2. 30 and I'm here with Mr Normal Phillips on the glory for Gotten Susan Susan Phillips, Fischer Wright were the Panama Canal Re Union S O. I just met you folks understand that you're his daughter.

00:00:23.790 - 00:00:48.670

Correct. And I was wondering if you could just start with a broad overview of your experiences. How did you get to be there? Are born there first e? I was born there. I was born there in March 14 1914 on Khan Hospital. Yeah, uh, later changed to Gorgas Hospital.

00:00:48.670 - 00:01:19.080

But it was Anton when I was born. There on it was old old French wooden building way lived very close to the hospital. Ah, now I remember when I was a kid, I used to play underneath the hospital. It was built on. Had it was built off the ground would sticks on.

00:01:19.080 - 00:01:48.160

Duh. Underneath there there were hundreds of cast iron, grave markers. They're all stacked up there. I don't know what they were doing there, but, uh, I used to play and no play with those when I was able to get out and play s So can I assume then that your parents came to the O Miles I parents came to the canal zone in 19 7.

00:01:48.140 - 00:02:15.250

My father was working as a machinist in the Navy Yard in the States, and he happened to see a nad ver ties mint that they needed a machinist in Panama. So hey, went home and told his wife while we're going to Panama. So he went down the Panama at 19 7.

00:02:15.260 - 00:02:47.270

I just don't know the date. Maybe around April, something like that on. She came down six months later when my father got to Panama. Hey, was broke. Onda, uh, he had a relative, a cousin or something like that that he knew was in Panama on uh, my father said, OK, I'll get some money from him.

00:02:47.280 - 00:03:13.000

So when he got to the old wooden bachelor quarters, he asked somebody, Do you know so and so? And he says, Oh, yeah, he's upstairs running the poker game. Uh, thought this is fine. I'm broke. I'll what? He'll give me some money. He said he went up there and introduced himself to his cousin or whatever it waas on.

00:03:13.010 - 00:03:36.880

The cousin was running the poker game in front of him. He had all gold coins. They were all paid in gold at that time on, uh, my father told him he was broke. Hey, lost his money playing poker on the way down. Onda, Uh, fella says, well, that will teach you not to play poker on.

00:03:36.880 - 00:04:08.160

Never gave him a cent. Eso he had to get his, uh, money till payday from others that would help him out. Well, my mother went down there about four or six months later when she got into colon on on the house they had was over the water in colon.

00:04:08.160 - 00:04:39.360

It was on stilts and you had little walkways to go out to the houses that were shacks that were built over the water. Onda, uh, she stayed there for about four or five months before they moved the machine shop. He worked at night times in the machine shop along, got tune there, and then they moved to collaborate on.

00:04:39.370 - 00:05:12.570

That's when she was ableto get a house on bond. They had a house, and, uh, h h had a horse. A small horse at the same time kept it in the yard with that was. It was good that we had pictures there. There was a platform in a tree on steps ladder like leading up to it on.

00:05:12.570 - 00:05:36.290

They would go up there with their long dresses and climb this place into the tree into the tree so that they could see the Pacific and the Atlantic at the same time. They were high enough Thio both on, and, uh, when I was born, way were had moved already.

00:05:36.300 - 00:06:18.400

Thio con Boulevard, Balboa Heights, Balboa Heights was near the administration building. It was on, uh, on gone boulevard, which ran from I guess, the railroad station thio an con on booth, right? Or in front of, uh, administration building on the flats down there with Balbo way were behind that onda, uh, toe walk to school.

00:06:18.400 - 00:06:48.460

I'd have toe walk, uh, maybe a mile or so on, I'd walk through the administration building down the steps toe high school or an old wooden building, which was the one grades 127 or 1 to 6. Something like that now, eh? So what was it like growing up in that way?

00:06:48.470 - 00:07:22.750

Well, growing up was okay. Way had, uh, one houses strained in way lived upstairs underneath the house. They were on stilts underneath the house way. Maybe posts that were 12 12. Holding up the house way on at the bottom of the post was a concrete pillar like that.

00:07:22.750 - 00:07:46.810

They set him on Andi in in the concrete. There was a a trench. They ran all the way around the edge that a man would come and put oil in it once a week or so to keep the term eyes from from eating up the building.

00:07:47.360 - 00:08:14.610

But they ate it anyway. It was screened in. It wasn't, uh we had a cold been on, uh, on they would been downstairs way had maids. They go down and get bring up coal, bring up the wood to put in a, uh, in a range, uh, coal fired range on.

00:08:14.610 - 00:08:50.850

Duh way had that in the in the kitchen. We also had, uh, some electric lives on a nighttime. You'd go Thio, go into the kitchen, you turn the light on on their army ants, Cockroaches all over the place where you went in there they scattered. Until then, you get bit quite often with army ants.

00:08:50.860 - 00:09:50.950

Yeah, but it was it was good. Good living Are they used to bring the coal they used to bring the would. They brought us £20 of ice every day on they brought it in the horse drawn, uh, trucks on. They finally got army old army trucks that they built were World War One Thio, bring the commissary and the, uh, allow the refrigeration, the ice and, uh, a t least everyone at least once a week, I might have been more often a commissary man would come there and you would order your what you wanted on.

00:09:50.950 - 00:10:16.510

He would take it, take it to the commissary, and then the next day or two, here comes the commissary truck and bring you your home delivery home delivery. Right There were caromed is which was a horse drawn. A vehicle where you could hire toe, have him take you different places.

00:10:16.520 - 00:10:48.240

E guess they were expensive at that time, but it didn't cost much on it was horse strong, Plenty of mango trees, plenty of guava trees. Uh, the head star apple trees. They were bad because star apple tree, the limbs would break. Onda uh, they had streets on nothing but star Apple trees on them.

00:10:48.240 - 00:11:22.260

And there were broken arms all the time and along Math Street on. Then, uh, the guava tree was the best rate of climb because limbs would bend, they would not break way had mangles all kind of mango trees. Way had about seven or eight different variety of mango on There was a good one that was which was a black mango.

00:11:22.270 - 00:11:43.600

It was black on the outside, but it was the sweetest mango that ever waas on it. It was a prize tree for us. Kids toe get into the black Bangles when they when they were right way had the papaya mangles Which your a z biggest, uh, grapefruit.

00:11:43.610 - 00:12:14.600

Bigas Uh, Honey Thio way had oranges that was biggest coconuts to it was quite a quite a nice place. In addition to tree climbing, what were the activities in elementary school Or maybe in high school that you got well, e was far enough away from Balboa.

00:12:14.600 - 00:12:56.260

Balbo had a place shed and they had a lot of activities for their kids. I was on the outskirts of that way. Would have a baseball team made up of people from the army, which was uh, Quarry Heights. Onda? Uh, some of US civilians way Never did have a enough kids toe in one area toe have a baseball team way.

00:12:56.260 - 00:13:18.050

Had a get together with a number of us to even play against an con or Balboa schools. So it was It was all right. It was fine. Thin. Once you got the high schools, you play sports there. Uh, when I got the high school, I didn't appointment sports.

00:13:18.090 - 00:13:40.610

I, uh, got there. I played the saxophone when they had a boys band. I played the saxophone in the band before I got into high school. And then when I got into high school, I started in orchestra. Onda had Phillips orchestra. Uh, I played there for about four years.

00:13:40.620 - 00:14:07.760

Better. I played for school functions. I also played for, uh, group that, uh, elderly could help people that got together and wanted a Saturday night dance once a month. So it was not a symphony orchestra. No, no, no. It was It was just a jazz band, but it was a very good there were seven of us.

00:14:08.140 - 00:14:42.100

Onda, uh, I passed out word that anybody that had an instrument could play in the orchestra at the Dances on sometimes would have 15 people in the orchestra. I had the orchestration, music jazz sent to me once a month from New York. Andi. I had all of the latest heads from New York.

00:14:42.910 - 00:15:09.150

Everybody else, all the other orchestras were playing by ear. I had I had the orchestration. This is still in high school. This is high school. Yeah, I graduated 30 1934. Now how many orchestras were there was a thriving music scene and in his own. Or how many orchestras were there?

00:15:09.160 - 00:15:40.160

Yeah, way you made it. Sounds like there's a bunch of, you know, there's like a lot of them and there's no there's only yes, There was only one other school orchestra on Duh. There were a couple of orchestras that played at different places in Panama, in the Republic of Panama, where they had dances and drinks and stuff like that.

00:15:40.170 - 00:16:02.660

But on the canal zone, there was, uh, just a few of us ever played Any place Did you play in Panama proper? E. Did not play in Panama problem. And how long did you keep playing well? Just four years of high school. Uh, played regular. It was good.

00:16:03.360 - 00:16:33.270

Mhm, but I they had a where all broke airfield is now. When I was a kid, that was just a swamp out over there. Onda Uhh! They called it Langley Field on. There were oh, silk or linen aircraft there from the army pursuit playing and bomber.

00:16:34.410 - 00:17:12.750

And, uh, it was about they failed. Landing field was about 4 ft high off of the swamp. So it did didn't flug, but all around it would flood. Well, we would We would walk out there on, uh, in that flooded area. There was all kind of cashew trees and we used thio eat a lot of cashew on board, but we didn't.

00:17:13.140 - 00:17:39.890

You didn't do much with the nuts. The nuts. When you cook them on an open fire, they have a smoke and that smoke is the same as mustard gas. And if you cook them, you have to be up wind. If you're down wind, you will break out all over with rash.

00:17:40.310 - 00:18:02.460

If you have a bathing suit on and go to the beach or something that you cook some of the cashew nuts, you will break out all over where the bathing suit wasn't fine. It was terrible. Your face and every place. So we stayed away from them.

00:18:03.140 - 00:18:31.520

But we used the cashews. Not the nuts. Mhm. No. Now, uh, when you're graduated high school, what did you stay in the canal zone? So yeah, there was the first time that 100 people ever graduated. I think there was 106 of us or something like that that graduated from high school.

00:18:32.340 - 00:19:05.710

Onda. Uhh about Well, before a year was up, I had a chance to become a copper. Smith. Uh, Machinist a copper Smith. Uh, a apprentice. They had apprentices down there. They had the woodworking ship, right? They had the ball of maker and a welder and pipefitter and coppersmith.

00:19:05.720 - 00:19:44.280

Many different, uh, trades that they would starting apprenticeship. Waas. And it was about the first time. It was about the first time that the apprentice training program got underway was in around 1933. Now, in America, of course, that dates the Great Depression. Did you feel much effective that in Panama Way did not have field the effect because everybody that was on the canal zone had a job.

00:19:44.290 - 00:20:09.870

You couldn't stay on the canal zone if you didn't have a job. So we were able to come to the States. I would come to the states with my parents on a vacation. Two months vacation. Andi. I saw what the Depression was in the states e saw in New Jersey.

00:20:10.520 - 00:20:38.030

I saw cars along the highway that were dilapidated on a family living in them, a man and a wife and two kids just living along the side of the road in the car. And the kids were covered from here to here with blue from blueberries. That's all they were eating on.

00:20:38.040 - 00:21:00.850

They had blueberries out there for sale. On my uncle was a annoy oil sales money on way in New Jersey or back in the day. But in in New York City City, all right, in New York City Way I took a trip with him. One time he went Thio.

00:21:00.860 - 00:21:25.060

I think it was Buffalo, New York, and on the way back, he says, I was 14. He says, We're going to golf. Hey says we're stopping in a place and going to golf, I said, Alright, I never go. So he had his club's Hey gotta run it up.

00:21:25.740 - 00:22:04.030

Set of clubs for May, which were small. And hey, says I want a caddy. Well, outcomes a man, his wife and two kids. That was the caddy, the whole family, All four of them. Kids would run down Theo fairway and try to find my ball. Uh, but, uh, that XYZ, the depression and the whole family was was one caddy.

00:22:04.030 - 00:22:24.870

You gotta pay the fee for one caddy. You got a wife and, uh, on the two kids. But you were relatively. You are sheltered from that. The canal zone? Yes. Yeah, the canal zone. Everybody had a job way. Didn't feel the depression like the people in the States did.

00:22:26.390 - 00:22:41.340

Now did you mentioned you? You saw the effects of the Depression when you return, but in a larger sense did you keep up on the vents in the States during that period? Did you keep abreast of what was going on? Not really. I was too young.

00:22:41.350 - 00:23:19.100

Yeah, I was. And I was only 13, 14, 15, 16, you know. Hmm. Andi, I would keep abreast just from what my parents would tell me. Uh, way went thio New York. Andi went to my aunt's house and her husband was Uhh digging a ditch in a pic line.

00:23:19.100 - 00:23:48.940

There are looked like 10 or 12 people with picks digging a trench for a pipeline or something. And he was one of them. That was a job that he had. Hey, worked for the railroad, but the railroad shut down on, uh, my mother told me, Don't you ever ask for anything that you don't see on the table a dining room table?

00:23:48.940 - 00:24:15.230

Because chances are they don't have it. So e my aunts on me looking around, she said, What do you want? Well, I wasn't supposed to ask for anything, eh? So I said I thought I saw the ketchup. She brought me to catch up. However you then how old was I?

00:24:15.240 - 00:24:51.930

I don't know. I was 13. 14? Yeah. All right. That was something. Yes, but I did a lot of hunting from when I was a small, uh, old enough, Uh, maybe 14 years old. I roamed the jungles down there. What did you hunt? Well, we hunted pig on duh different different birds.

00:24:51.930 - 00:25:18.960

Mostly pig. Go way as I got to be about 15 and I joined the hunting club we had dogs on. We hunted deer every weekend with the dogs. That was good. I was able to use a shotgun, then, Uh, prior to that, I had a 22.

00:25:19.240 - 00:25:48.950

Uh huh. But, uh, way used to get a lot of dogs would I'm in here. We go out on a Saturday night on Sunday hunt on. We'd go come home with four or five deer. Now, those deer are if you got a they averaged about £70.

00:25:48.960 - 00:26:16.730

Uh, they dare in Panama are small because they have to go through the jungle on They have to be small toe stay alive so they don't They don't grow big. Uh, they get horns and just like a all dear, but, uh, but there are small. Oh, yes, you Did you do that yourselves?

00:26:16.730 - 00:26:44.630

Or did someone put your before you? No. We used to butcher them ourselves on past him out the different families when we would come back. Way used to go out on stay overnight at a one or two places, and we'd always cook up the first year we caught out there.

00:26:44.680 - 00:27:10.900

So it would, uh, take all the necessary is to make a big meal out there. Sometimes we'd have guests come. There'd be a eight or 10 of us plus four or five guests at a different places. And that was that Was the fun overnight trips on?

00:27:10.900 - 00:27:37.350

How long did you do this for? Just for your teen years. Or did you do it in your Don't know, Just for my 10 years? Yeah, I did it for about four, four years, Five years and straight. But, uh, then, uh, hunting club got different people to run it all the time.

00:27:37.360 - 00:27:59.940

You know? E couldn't stay with it too long too far, but we enjoyed it very much. So now you were talking earlier about your prints. Sing when the copper as a coppersmith, Correct? Yes. Okay. Did you stick with that profession? And you stay in the canal?

00:27:59.950 - 00:28:33.520

A canal zone? I joined the mechanical division. Now my father went down into Panama as a machinist on he went from cap tune Thio Labra toe Panama. Uh and he worked the night shift. Now it was a day shift and the night shift all the time because they had something going.

00:28:33.530 - 00:29:03.740

Sure. Aziz, the canal Move the shops moved with my father being the night man. Allow big shots would come in on talk to him and say, Can you make this? Can you make that? It was all the people that that dug the canal that were in charge of it.

00:29:03.740 - 00:29:31.360

Stevens and I don't know who all but but they would come in on. Finally, they came to him one time. When he is, I imagine around clay brah, near That's the cut. And they told him we're gonna have you as master machinist when we opened ball boy shops.

00:29:32.040 - 00:29:59.700

Now, when we open bowel more shops, we're gonna have to overhaul the whole locks, the whole canal, anything on the canal we're gonna have to take care of on. We're gonna have a dried off their the size of the blocks so that any ship that comes through the blocks can also be dried up.

00:30:00.200 - 00:30:39.260

And they are the biggest ships built on during that time. And so they said way want you to order the machinery necessary in this machine shop so that we can overhaul all the ships and all of the locks. So he did. He ordered a planner. That was was the largest in the world at that time.

00:30:39.270 - 00:31:09.890

He ordered a lathes that was the largest in the world. That there was nothing. Nothing bigger because of the gates on the the rising stem valve gates that shut the water from going into the canal and let the water in on. Uhh! That's Ah, that's Ah, a tube that's 8 ft in diameter.

00:31:09.900 - 00:31:38.770

The tube itself and these big gates are have toe open and shut. So, uh, hey, was the master machinist uh that, uh, there were only seven massive machinists in the world at that time in the world. What they considered vaster machinist. Uh, hey, was one of them.

00:31:38.780 - 00:32:20.480

Uh, but he went down in 1919, 7 on He retired. Uhh. Well, I just can't remember when he retired when he retired. Regardless of when that was, Did he stay? You know, I've heard that some zone Ian stay in Panama, retire there. Well, when he when he retired, they were just starting ah group in Florida to become the Panama Canal Association like we have right now.

00:32:20.490 - 00:32:48.940

So he went up to Florida and bought a house. Uh, and he came back and he told my mother that way. Have a house in Florida and we're moving. She says I'm not moving. I'm staying on here. So they had to sell the house because she wouldn't go to Florida because I was down there with my Children.

00:32:48.940 - 00:33:15.490

My sister was down there with her Children, and I had another sister that was married there without any Children. So they didn't go toe coming to go to the States until much later. And 60 to about, uh, eso you mentioned that you had to have a job to stand.

00:33:15.500 - 00:33:37.100

So once he retired, did he stay living in the zone? No, no, no. He had to move in the Panama into the Republic of Panama. Uh, yes. So you just mentioned you. You married and had a family? Yes. So tell me a little bit about that, So I think we left off on your story.

00:33:37.110 - 00:33:59.170

You had graduated from high school. You became an apprentice in the copper metal worker. Did you remain in that occupation throughout your stay or No, I did not. I I stayed in as a lady man on a soon as the World War ended. Then I had to go back with the tools.

00:33:59.180 - 00:34:39.070

Uh, but, uh, it was later on that i e I got from my tools to go in as a zey planner. An estimator. Okay, then I stayed as a planner and estimator, and then I became chief planner. I had five planners on estimators under May, and then I became the assistant production superintendent of the yard.

00:34:39.490 - 00:35:09.930

Talked to me a little bit about what a planner and estimator does. I'm planning and estimating. Sure, but how did that go into the canal? Well, each craft, uh, has to overhaul. Uh, some of the, uh, parts of the canal itself, plus repair all shipping that comes through there.

00:35:10.240 - 00:35:53.980

Way have to repair it so that it is Kenly, leave the canal zone under its own power way. Don't do it as an over as a major overhaul or something like that. Way don't. So we would, uh oh, gosh. Uh, we'd have thio bring in every piece of craft every piece of floating equipment that the, uh, canal had an overhaul it.

00:35:54.740 - 00:36:25.190

Now, if it was a tug way would have 32 or three planners go over there on estimate a machine part the ship fitter part and, uh, overhaul of what they wanted to dio. And then we had estimate on it. Tell them how much money they would have toe have so that the budget office could divided up that way.

00:36:25.200 - 00:36:59.260

Repaired barges. We repaired drill boats. We repaired Deng's on board all floating equipment. Way would take care of overhauling. And if they If one of the Marine Division wanted to know how much money they needed for doing this work, we'd have to go on estimate on it to bring it into to, uh, the overhaul.

00:37:00.430 - 00:37:31.970

And we had to schedule the overhauls so that we had a limited amount off craftsman uh ah yard in the States. Whenever they got a big job, they could go to the gate and higher pipe fitters or machinists or whatever they wanted down there. We couldn't do that way, had the same number of people on way had to keep them busy.

00:37:33.030 - 00:37:57.110

Now, if they failed to give us a tugboat or a dredge when they scheduled it, way would have men that wouldn't have worked todo so they would have thio. We would have to make sure that, uh, the scheduling was such that it would take care of.

00:37:57.810 - 00:38:30.910

Of all the employees that we had in the division, which was nice during the during the war we had 600 tankers home based in Balbo. That's the Pacific side feeding the Pacific Fleet on we were their home base. We had 600 tankers. They were mission tankers and t two tankers.

00:38:30.920 - 00:39:20.620

Thus £600.400 pounds Steam jobs on. They would come Thio. They finally got a pipeline across the isthmus. We got all our oil from Venezuela on Duh. All these tankers would come in. We'd have thio keep them running on. Duh! It was it was big business. Thio keep 600 tankers running and filling the building and at the same time, way had one big dried off that handled anything that came through the canal on.

00:39:20.620 - 00:39:54.180

We had about four or five other drydocks smaller on the navy. Brought down three floating drydocks way Had thio run all of those with chips Thio clean, clean. So the World War two then had a significant impact. Oh, that was working. Oh, yes, it did. Way went from where our employees increased.

00:39:56.110 - 00:40:34.140

Maybe seven times mechanical employs about seven times over normal. And we're the Americans were recruited from the States where they local. They were mostly Americans recruited from the States. Andi, Uh, I don't know who all hired him. Uh, wait a, uh, notice that we had four pipefitters coming in on the next boat on duh.

00:40:34.110 - 00:40:57.360

We asked 445 fitters. We asked one, Where did you work? Hey, said on the sheep herder. What are you doing in the pipe shop? I don't know. That's where they sent me. Hey. Hey. Was a sheep herder and the other one was Oh, I forget what he waas.

00:40:57.370 - 00:41:16.330

But no, no, no. They just hired him in the states and way. Need a pipefitter? Okay, E. I guess you just have to train them from the way. Had to train them from the ground up. Yes. Okay. Now did they stay after the world after the war was over?

00:41:16.340 - 00:41:54.310

No way. When they war ended, most of them wanted to get out of there anyway. Way had to go back to our original number of people. Way lost a lot way. We're very lucky when the war started. What is that, uh, before the war, they decided to build a third blocks way.

00:41:54.310 - 00:42:29.880

Got ah lot of good people down there for the third blocks on duh. They were army engineer employees, civilian employs on when the war started with project was stopped. Uh, but here was a whole group of, uh, mechanics that worked for them. And we took him right in over the canal.

00:42:29.890 - 00:42:54.070

So we way got a good group of, uh, of employees of mechanical employees just because the third locks would stop. So let's let's change gear here. Alright? Eso At what point? We've talked a lot about the work that you did. What about your personal life? He he found nice young lady to settle down with.

00:42:54.080 - 00:43:21.470

You produced a family like Thio court, marry and raise a family in with so well, that was fine. That girl that I married, I met when I was a freshman in high school. Yes, e. I spent four years of apprenticeship Onda. At the end of that, we married.

00:43:21.490 - 00:43:59.120

I went with eight years. Well, before we got married on, I assume that her family was also she was second generation. She was second generation, both her parents help? Yeah, yeah, yeah. My father was a Roosevelt metal man. Andi. Uhh! Hey, her father was not because he was down during the construction, but he didn't stay there long enough.

00:43:59.130 - 00:44:21.690

And then when the canal was opened, he they came back down. And how many Children chat? I had three Children, two boys and a girl. And so I assume one of them is sitting right here with us. So what was it like? Toe born, raised, educated.

00:44:23.390 - 00:44:46.110

What was your? Let me ask you this. What was your child like? Good. Like, it might have been different than what his child. But what has changed? Probably the building structure of the homes had changed. I could remember getting what? The first air conditioner, which was a window unit, which was in my parents bedroom.

00:44:46.120 - 00:45:10.920

I didn't get it. I didn't get it, but they piped it over to my brother's bedroom. I still didn't get it. Way had two rooms that had air conditioning. E think the way the homes were built. Then you know, you know the breeze e never never knew I needed to miss it like you do in Florida, right?

00:45:10.930 - 00:45:36.180

Right. Gosh, growing up was just, I think fun from a soon as you can remember back Thio you just had It was just fun. I mean, there was You went where I lived you? It was the houses built off the ground. You go down to a friend's house and you didn't go up and knock on the door.

00:45:36.180 - 00:45:56.080

You stood down below and yelled their name, you know, they'd opened the door, and if they could come play, then they would come down and play. It was I just think that's odd, because after I had my Children up here in Florida, I'll go over and knock on the door, find their friends, and we just yelled up Thio s O.

00:45:56.080 - 00:46:13.810

That was maybe a difference. I don't know if they did that in the United States. Um um, just the freedom. I mean, you were out in the street playing kickball off scotch. You played e didn't go seek when it got dark. You never worried about? I don't know.

00:46:13.780 - 00:46:31.300

The parents didn't seem to ever worry about where we were. We were out on the street somewhere playing and way had a gym. You could go to during well on Saturdays. I guess you could go down and play in the gym way did that a lot.

00:46:31.310 - 00:46:58.890

There was the baseball teams, which was all male. No girls played baseball. Then way sat in the bleacher and yelled for him. Now you go to high school. No, I went to Christofle High School. That's on the that's on the Atlantic side. My brothers went to Christofle High School, but it was down and I guess the town of Crystal Ball, which is near Colon.

00:46:58.900 - 00:47:19.510

When I went to Crystal Ball High School, it was in a town called Coco Solo that had moved because all the canal Zone employees moved to co co Sala Margarita are got tuned. I guess Crystal ball housing closed and went back to Panama, I guess. Yes.

00:47:21.480 - 00:47:39.460

So that was a difference from my brothers were in crystal ball was I went to a different building than they did. There was a tension in the family. I understand. It's quite the rivalry between Christo. Yeah, everybody says they grew up on the others side on the better side.

00:47:39.470 - 00:48:02.650

S O. That was That was always and they're still here of the re Union. Everybody laughs and jokes about that. Who grew up on which side That's like. Sometimes the first thing you look at somebody and say, Well, which side where you are? Yeah. If you didn't recognize the name, the only way you could go from one side to the other was by the railroad.

00:48:02.890 - 00:48:28.530

They didn't have a road across. Uh, if you wanna. That was because they had a contract with old Panama Railroad. Began in 18. 48 or something like that that they know road could be built on board. Monopoly. Yes. So it was during the early part of the war.

00:48:29.030 - 00:49:00.840

Maybe. E don't know 41 or 42 that the army build a road across the essence so you could drive from Panama City over to Kalon on. That was That was one of the big things that happened. E used to ride the train, go down and catch the train at Mount Hope Station on ride the train by myself.

00:49:00.850 - 00:49:24.760

And I was in grade school. Go on the praying over Diablo actually got off in Balboa station. There wasn't a Diablo station on. And my cousin and her mom, my aunt would pick me up and I'd stay the weekend with them and think they put me on the train again at Balboa and I go home, and I didn't think anything of riding the train by yourself.

00:49:24.770 - 00:49:54.260

It was fun. My dad. I don't know if he mentioned building up in Santa Clara, which was in the Republic. Hey, built a bossom property on was gonna build the beach house on, then his father. I thought after he had retired, his father had retired. Wanted to build five cottages to rent, so I don't know, I e I mean, that was a landmark.

00:49:54.270 - 00:50:23.000

Lots of people knew because they go up and rent one of the cottages to go to the beach. And that was, I thought, pretty interesting at that time to build even up in the It's up in the interior. Uh, that was something. During the war, word came out that they were going to send all people that didn't have a job like family people to the United States.

00:50:23.000 - 00:50:52.250

They didn't want him in Panama. Yeah, send the families back. Just leave the employees down there because of the war. I don't know. So I built a house in the republic so I wouldn't have to send my wife and kids back to the United States. Eso I could move them right into the Republic of Panama.

00:50:53.240 - 00:51:25.800

They eventually ask for families have to move back to the states e The canal zone had a blackout. Panama did not black out on S O one of the Navy. Uh, people came down there and they told told them that you have a blackout down here.

00:51:25.810 - 00:51:57.190

Thio keep the Japs from bombing you. But he says when you're in an airplane up there, you can see the whole canal by the reflection from the stars that you're blacking out the city. It doesn't make sense to do that, but I don't know that was something else.

00:51:57.520 - 00:52:28.410

What other effects did you see the world didn't do? For example, did you have rationing? And, you know, in the States, of course, they had the various rationing of foods and other materials. Did you have 1000 at all? No, not that I remember any rational way Panama has that liquor canal zone didn't have the 4.2 or whatever it waas, but so you get off work.

00:52:28.420 - 00:52:59.160

You go over the Panama Thio, so I don't know e on Russian e Did you have it? Sounds like that you had a very How do I put this open relationship with Panama Republic? Sound like you came back and forth, interacted with local? Yeah, you just walked across, walk across And did you get along with them fairly well, I did.

00:52:59.160 - 00:53:43.220

I got along with him fairly well. Yes, yeah. Yes, it was later on when the trouble started. About when? When was that? When was that? Well, way had riot 63 way 63 in the sixties. Onda Uhh That was bad. Well, tell me about your experience with that because by then you've got family and, well, it must have been like in 63 or 64 16 when they had riots.

00:53:43.960 - 00:54:20.300

They had riots down there on you. Stayed away. Stayed out of Panama on Did it Was gringo go home. They didn't want you down there. They wanted the canal for themselves on. Then anything would stir up the, uh, university students down there and then the riots would start on E way Had a few deaths from the riots.

00:54:21.740 - 00:54:50.290

It was it was miserable for May because I lived up in the I had a house in the interior and up there they would way would hire natives toe take care of the grounds We would pay them mawr than what they could get anyplace else in the republic.

00:54:51.450 - 00:55:30.280

And a soon as you go away. I I had a a woman that stayed there, Panamanian that stayed there, Onda to take care of the place. And she she hired help. We'll assume Nas would leave there. Then the police would come and arrest her on. They would say, uh, you have help here That you don't give them a vacation way had helped there that we paid him twice as much as they could make any place else.

00:55:30.290 - 00:55:55.550

Onda we were liberal as's faras uh, let him take time off things like that. But, uh, they would, uh, just find something Thio irritate the US They didn't want you there. I don't know what that was. Just that they made something up. Yeah, right. They would make something up back in the fifties.

00:55:56.840 - 00:56:20.790

Yeah, You sold the property? E don't know when the school when you sold the property a grade school when you sold the property. I had to be in the fifties. Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. I can't remember that far better. So that was a great place to go.

00:56:20.880 - 00:56:50.320

Profit. Yeah. Contract. Tell them how you made the contract with the guy with ping pong tables. E. I went up there and I wanted to build a home. I'm gonna take Andi. I got a fellow from there. He ran a cantina on. He says I'll build a home for you on E said, All right.

00:56:50.330 - 00:57:31.160

Well, well, uh, I want on this big three bedrooms, three bath on and wait. Got this way. Got the house started on. I had a ping pong table there that folded in the two halves on. I took it up there, and we set it up. As soon as we got a roof up, I set it up there and underneath the ping pong table when you folded it back.

00:57:31.130 - 00:57:55.100

Wait, You would get so much money when the house was this far gone, you would get your money like that on the bottom of the ping pong table on. That's all the contract we had. I was on the bottom of this bank. Bomb table. Legal, legal animal.

00:57:56.110 - 00:58:25.780

That's the gentleman's agreement. Take gentlemen's agreement. I'll give you this much money at different times when you finish the floor, the roof on. When you finish the whole thing, I'll give you the balance. That's all the contract we had, uh, build a home. A three bedroom, three bath home tile roof, tile floor.

00:58:25.940 - 00:58:53.650

Eso everything thing your dad wanted. The cottages built five cottages. Well, did he bought property? Yeah. I bought property alongside and built five cottages to rent, and it was known as the Philips Cottages on people came up, rented them and basically vacation. Vacation? Yeah, Yeah, Anybody.

00:58:53.650 - 00:59:15.100

Oh, yeah. It was a great place for me. A z three years that only a few years that I got to be there. I mean, you went down. It was on a top of the cliff on. You could walk down this cliff cliff was maybe 20 ft high or more.

00:59:15.110 - 00:59:33.820

Uh, you could walk down. You could go out to the beach on you could look both ways. As far as you could see, you wouldn't see another person on. You could hear the waves come in at nine times on. It was Now it's being built up quite a bit.

00:59:33.830 - 00:59:58.720

But when we went up there, there was just a few houses and go down to the beach. And you're the only people on the beach is far as you can see, Niles. Oh, Panama was very nice place. They tell me it's the best place now in Central America.

00:59:58.720 - 01:00:26.160

Tonto. Now, if you were in grade school in the fifties, E was born in 49 e s. So you in high school and you don't know about, you know, you would have been there. I think it was 1964 was the flag e was in ninth grade when that happened, how did that affect you?

01:00:26.170 - 01:00:49.480

Well, um, when that when they did the flag and raising the I guess the senior and junior has decided we were gonna have an American flag on E was in ninth grade at the time. And, of course, the upperclassmen were out and they were putting flags up in the trees in front of our school.

01:00:49.480 - 01:01:09.510

And somebody was trying to climb the flag post to put an American flag up there. And there were also parents involved. And so when we got a flag up there, of course, the teachers were saying, If you don't come back in, you know, you're gonna This will be a day, you know, absentee day or whatever we're like.

01:01:09.520 - 01:01:35.030

Okay, s So of course, the senior upperclassmen were saying, Let's go to the elementary school. So we all followed them to the elementary school and put a flag up there. I think they wanted to go to the next town margarita, and do the same thing. Well, way couldn't walk that bar on DSO There were a classman that had cars and there were the parents who were there involved.

01:01:35.010 - 01:01:58.340

S o I got involved. No, he wasn't involved. So we got Thio Margarita, the town I lived in and they put a flag up there. Of course, they had to go to the next town. Gattuso on. I didn't go there. I went home thing get in trouble because you were doing what Barbara eso.

01:01:58.350 - 01:02:17.640

Anyway, I think that day everybody got excused. Anyway, I think I don't remember. But now that the pen names didn't take E, I don't think they were probably happy. But it was probably started with. The parents of the upperclassmen knew were political, I guess. And we're gonna have a flag.

01:02:17.650 - 01:02:39.920

They didn't wanna have an American flag flying unless there was a Panamanian. I'm flying with E. I think the politics was of the parents. We're gonna have our flag anyway. So now during that time period, of course, is a period of America is a lot of protests were there on.

01:02:39.930 - 01:03:03.590

Not only about that, but, you know, civil rights protesters, you guys, Vietnam, Thio, certainly. Were you guys paying attention to what was going on in America in that regard are how connected were you to the guys Current events in American politics or anything like that way?

01:03:03.590 - 01:03:36.740

Never. I never voted or anything while I was in a band way. Didn't pay too much attention. Toe politics in the United States. Okay, Strong opinions about Presidents Kennedy, Eisenhower, e remember Kennedy's assassination E remember, I was in p e, came in tow, came into the high school, and that's what I was doing when that happened.

01:03:36.700 - 01:04:00.110

But politics? I wasn't at that age. I wasn't No, I didn't go into any politics at all. Now you say you didn't vote. Obviously you don't have representatives or senators and you don't have mayors and stuff. Well, did you go for president Boozer? No, no, no.

01:04:00.120 - 01:04:22.770

No voting at all. But when I they told May I was a U. S. Citizen. When I was born down there on when I came to the United States, I had to go through immigration. They won part of the United States. Told me I was a U S citizen.

01:04:22.770 - 01:04:51.710

And the other part said I wasn't eso I had to register myself. My family, my sisters Onda, uh, everybody When I came to the CEO of, uh oh, uh, I had to get a citizenship being born down there. You had to get your citizenship in New Orleans.

01:04:52.010 - 01:05:15.760

You have to go through the whole take a civics test, that stuff, You know, we just went in and said We were born of us parents in the canal zone and, well, I I had to go to New Orleans on what they did was send somebody down the Panama to see my mother and father on.

01:05:15.760 - 01:05:47.370

They had to prove their their that they were born in the United States. Now it so happened that that, uh, my mother, uh, my mother's doctor that when she was born was still living, and they contacted him. But it was, uh, Thio prove that they were U s citizens in Panama at the time.

01:05:47.380 - 01:06:12.990

Prior to that, they told us we were U S citizens way. Well, when we were born, we were us citizens way. No, you could be president because way no voting or anything on. They told me when I e went to become a U S citizen in New Orleans.

01:06:12.980 - 01:06:40.760

Oh, you could have voted if you wanna do you. Your parents came from Pennsylvania in New York on you could get a nab Sinti ballot. Well, they never told me that when I was e was growing up. They said, no, you can't vote your e. You don't have to forget the exact date.

01:06:40.770 - 01:07:03.570

Did you remember when you came back to United States to sound like the whole family came together way? Did you get your citizenship papers when I got mine? Yeah, I declare you, then. Yeah, it was in New Orleans. Um, yeah, I'd like in the early, like in 1962 or something.

01:07:03.570 - 01:07:30.310

like that. E think it was in the sixties. I retired in 72 72. It was in the sixties 19 sixties. I had to go to New Orleans. I went to New Orleans on a vacation. Mhm on. My son was born down there in 76 I had to get his citizenship paperwork done, but it was done in Crystal Ball.

01:07:30.880 - 01:08:01.110

So what did you do? So you went to high school? I went to high school. Then I graduated, went up to college and Charlotte, North Carolina for a year. And I had met my husband now in Panama. He was in the Army, and, uh, he got out of the service and went back to California on I went to college, and when I finished a year of college thin, I went out to California.

01:08:01.120 - 01:08:35.440

We got married in 68. Mhm on around 70 71. My dad said, Why don't you come back down to Panama and see if he could get an apprenticeship? So we flew down to Panama and he was given a machinist Marine machinist apprenticeship on DSO. We stayed stayed in Panama until 78 way got a position with a federal aviation in Bureau Beach, Florida.

01:08:35.450 - 01:09:07.860

Way left in 78 s. Your son would have been 60 to 70. 67. Okay, way left. As that was when the treaty was going to be signed by President Carter. And no one knew exactly what the changes we're gonna be like on hey had the opportunity transfer way a way.

01:09:07.860 - 01:09:37.970

If he hadn't had that opportunity, we would have stayed even with the turnover way would've stayed. Yeah, I'm sure we would have stayed with everybody. Sure. And you moved out in 72 72. I retired in 1972 37 years with the U. S. Government on you retired to Florida?

01:09:38.470 - 01:10:22.500

No, I came Thio United States. Who went into California? E moved my mother and father from Florida. They went up the Florida after the riots during the riots on guard E guess it was in the early sixties on they wanted to go to California, so I drove them out out there in 64 on they moved into a leisure world and in 64 California Orange County.

01:10:25.800 - 01:10:46.930

So that's where I moved to and I retired. How do you guys go back to Panama Way. Haven't been back since 94. Christmas 95. New Year's last time we were either of us were down. My brother still lives down there. Okay, so he retired a few years ago.

01:10:47.630 - 01:11:19.080

One brother still lives there. The other brothers in Georgia, He's in California, so we're spread out way. Who's a family reunion way? Have quite a few family, actually. This year here. Way. Yeah. Both brothers, their most of their Children on demand on myself and my husband and one of my daughter and her two girls.

01:11:19.390 - 01:11:42.200

That's quite a way. Have two cousins that air coming in tomorrow in their husbands way. So we've been at this for about half way. So is there anything you'd like to tell me about the Panama Canal Zone? Something you want to get off your chest? Always want to complain about a brag about.

01:11:42.210 - 01:12:31.930

Well, you have, uh, Charles Hummer downstairs. Uh uh. Charles Summer's father and I knew each other very well. The Hummer family on my family. The Phillips family were very close together during construction on after construction on, uh, my father worked in the machine job. Mr. Hummer worked in the rigging shop of the mechanical division on their both Roosevelt medal holders from way.

01:12:33.000 - 01:13:02.770

Yeah. So I'm I'm looking for Charles Hummers because I knew I used to run around with his father. I'm looking for him now. E just wish everybody could have experienced what we experienced. The kids growing up. A lot of it was just It was great. Like my dad said, climbing the trees.

01:13:02.770 - 01:13:21.930

I mean, you climb the trees, you went down in the jungles you played in the jungle. You every, uh, Christmas. I don't have you heard the story. But every after Christmas holidays, you formed your little gangs and you went around asking everybody, Can we have a christmas tree?

01:13:21.940 - 01:13:42.760

You know, and you don't get the trees and you hide them and in someone's maid's room or down in the jungle. And you didn't want because they counted the trees to see who who brought in the most trees. We had a Christmas tree burn. Your community would bring all the trees together.

01:13:43.050 - 01:14:04.330

I guess it was on a Saturday or a Sunday. I'm sure it was 12th night or something. Yeah. You bring all the trees before the trees were burned, they had a picnic and they had hamburgers and drinks and hot dogs. And you had three legged race and you had exact race and kids had a really good time.

01:14:04.330 - 01:14:20.190

And then when it got dark e don't know who it waas, but they'd like the trees and we burned all the trees and it was just There's a ritual and there are places around in Florida. I don't know anywhere else. They still get together as a group.

01:14:20.200 - 01:14:48.430

Burn the trees somewhere. Interesting. When I was a child was fun Way lived by the swamp in Balbo on the swamp was all broke. Field on duh. All broke field is a is a airfield built by the Air Force in Panama on prior to all broke field.

01:14:48.430 - 01:15:26.350

It was a swamp with about a 3 ft landing field on that was called Langley Field on Langley Field. When I was a kid had, uh, linen covered by planes, Army planes and, uh, one or two pursuit planes with lemon covered wings on duh. Then after that, then they cleaned the whole area on built what is called all broke field.

01:15:26.360 - 01:15:45.770

I don't know what It's called now, but But it was quite a now. Your tree story reminds me there was another tradition. Did you take part? Either One of you take part of the I forgot what the name was called Kayak race E didn't take part in it.

01:15:45.780 - 01:16:11.070

That Boy Scouts, I think, was started on. Then eventually I know they ran out of Boy Scouts. Girls got todo part of the coyote razors to so you That was ocean notion that they're still doing they're still doing. And there's a group that did it well over near Cocoa Beach.

01:16:11.080 - 01:16:37.870

But between the river there was something this year where they had to Cayugas and whatever race was they did. So you dug out tree from a tree. What were your activities? My activities growing up, climbing in trees, flying Coleman trees, playing in the world. There are jungles.

01:16:37.870 - 01:17:05.930

And one of the fun things that we did was we get old cardboard boxes on one side we take a candle and Robert really good. So I got wax and we go toe a hill That was our snow down the hill. We'd go, you know, on you could see ruts Where Everybody did slide way skated roller, skated down the sidewalks.

01:17:05.940 - 01:17:25.490

I ended up getting a horse in ninth grade s So that was my activity. I guess my sport, uh, went out to the drive us out to the stable and drop us off and come back and get us in the late afternoon and way hung out of the stable and wrote our horses and went across.

01:17:25.500 - 01:17:54.280

Gattuso unlocks We could get off and walk across the bridge and get back on and go ride way through the fields that were, you know, along with canal. Um, let's see after school scores. I did after she was great, but e, it was just fun. It was just, you know, there's a lot of different memories.

01:17:54.290 - 01:18:23.940

Good memories and way had Fourth of July in the same place that they did our tree. Burns and Margarita shot off fireworks way. Like I said, if you have any other stories, love to hear them, but yeah, he's full of stories getting him drawn out. Yeah.

01:18:23.950 - 01:18:46.630

What's your favorite story of hiss? My favorite of hiss e Don't know. He didn't tell you any of it is going hunting stories either. Did you talked a little bit about hunting. He did a lot of hunting, You know, a lot of hunting. E don't know what a favorite story.

01:18:46.640 - 01:19:01.900

Well, let me turn it over to him then. What's your favorite story about her? She's a good kid. Did she get, uh, Well, she was pretty good. She she rode her horse. E don't know whether she rode the horse or she just wrote on the back.

01:19:01.910 - 01:19:30.160

She got by. All right. Uh, when, uh, when I was a kid, the houses were all built off of the ground. Onda, uh, other kids had horses that they kept underneath the house E but I never had anything like that. E they had a messy house.

01:19:30.160 - 01:19:56.830

I tell you, I'm sorry. They were messy. Okay? Horses will do that. Where they were otherwise. Yeah, when the horses underneath the house. But I think they finally had thio. Stop it. But think swamps are already smelly. And But when my mother and father went down when my mother and father went down there during the construction, they each had a horse.

01:19:56.840 - 01:20:28.540

Uh, that they would ride. Oh, nice. So your house wasn't on stills? Um, Yeah. Minor on minor on. Still, there was one cottage that we moved into when I was young. Early Elementary. That was a cottage on the ground on. Then from there we moved into another cottage that was off the ground with They build them up around.

01:20:28.550 - 01:21:03.720

Yeah. Then keep would dance from eating them up way with. Sometimes you could find a wooden trail a niche wide going up to the house overnight on concrete booth copper shells between the wood and the house. But a lot of times, they go right over it.

01:21:03.710 - 01:21:35.140

Build up fast. A. Well, thank you for joining. Joining us. I appreciate you sharing your stories. E didn't have a whole lot. He's the storyteller. E o just goes on and on. E Oh, thank you very much. Thank you. Of course you think of any more.

01:21:35.140 - 01:22:06.660

Let me know. I'll be around, folks. Three or 49. You see me? Just pulled me aside and say I thought of another story. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Thanks very much. I'm gonna stop this better. One of the things was that I was a kid. I e They had a mattress factory right there where my house Waas because anybody came down there, got a bed on a mattress, on chairs or something.

01:22:06.670 - 01:22:50.750

That from the quartermaster. Well, thio make the bread and the food that, uh, commissary sold for the employees. They had to bring everything down from the states. And one of the big items was flower gold medal flour. Gold medal flour came in large sacks that were maybe 3 ft long and, uh, 18 inches wide into a sack on and to make the bread.

01:22:50.760 - 01:23:10.930

And then the bread was made and went toe all the commissaries. Well, the mattress factory in back of my house Got all of these sacks gold medal sacks on, uh, when I was a kid, I used to go down to the mattress factory that have my pants made.

01:23:10.940 - 01:23:37.430

They made them out of gold medal sex e. It's made out of Goldman Sachs pants were made out of gold medal sack Berlack. Uh, no, no. Lemon linen. Yeah, it's been much better on Uhh Gold medal made its money because everybody wanted the sacks. So they ordered the gold medal sacks gold medal flour.

01:23:37.500 - 01:23:58.290

So you would worry you get a pair of pants or something. And you have a big gold medal sign on your pants or your skirt or whatever it was built. E I never had my shirts made. It was always a pants when I was a kid.

01:23:58.290 - 01:24:37.620

That's all I could remember. But whenever the whenever the ships came in Thank come in on, uh, usually a Wednesday or Thursday on, uh, everybody would go to the commissary the next day to see what the ship brought in on, uh, on by their knees. Uh, but the commissary themselves had toe make all the food way.

01:24:37.620 - 01:25:23.700

Had Thio. There was no milk down there, so they had thio have dairies had to bring the cows down on. They had the dairies on cow pastures, cows from the Atlantic to the Pacific. They had different areas where they were, they would keep the cows on When I used to go hunting, it always come across the cal dip where they have a concrete dip that they have to put the cow through the kill The, uh, bugs, ticks and different things on the way.

01:25:23.690 - 01:26:15.150

Uh, no. Uh, no, But that was something way. He seems like everyone who went there. Wonderful memories of living in the e e Mean, you were in your own little community, and it's self contained. I mean, you whole canal zone group took care of all your needs on it was just a It's just a great place to grow up, E, I think all the kids, you didn't have any worries you didn't have compared to what goes on today.

01:26:15.150 - 01:26:43.500

I mean, we'd walk down and go to the movie on Friday or Saturday night. We'd walk home in the dark way fast. They brought the cows down. They had to get a grass from the plains of Africa. That group big, and they would plant, plant the grass that grass down way.

01:26:43.480 - 01:27:15.560

Uh, there was no native grass for the cows. Well, not enough are something that but they did bring African grass in the planet. Uh huh. Mhm. Now, that was funny. Well, thank you. Yeah, sure. Well, thank you very much. Brought back a lot of memories. Okay.

01:27:16.090 - 01:27:18.750

Uh, anymore. No more