00:00:00.340 - 00:00:27.960

This is July 3rd 2010. Candace Ellis and Amanda Knoll interviewing Mike Stephenson. Okay, on. And we'd like to start off. Maybe you telling us about your family and how you guys got involved with the canal zone? Okay, uh, in anticipation of this, I tried to get the date or the year of least that my folks went to Panama, and I wasn't able to do it, so I could give you approximation on that.

00:00:28.040 - 00:00:46.880

But unlike a lot of folks, my family doesn't go way back. My dad came toe the Panama. His his great uncle was there working there. I think he went down into that region on a private contracts of some sort and ended up in pound. I think he may even have gone either Nicaragua Costa Rica first and then ended up in Panama.

00:00:46.890 - 00:01:10.280

Uh, and, uh, and it was around it someplace between 39 42. I'm not sure. When my older brother was born in Oklahoma, my folks were both from Oklahoma. My older brothers born there, and I can't I seem to remember them saying that he was three when they went down there, which would put a you know, 41 42 area.

00:01:10.280 - 00:01:24.870

And I was born in 42 down there, so I never thought much about it until I got, you know, looking at for this. And I went through some papers, I decided, call my brother and he's out of town, so I couldn't get ahold of him. So I think he probably knows when they went.

00:01:24.880 - 00:01:40.590

But my best yes is I know that they were there when I could. I was born there, and then my younger brother was born several years later. So, uh, it was employment was a reason seeking employment. You know, times were tough in the 39 41 period.

00:01:40.600 - 00:02:01.750

Uh, and when my father went down, he I think he was first employed as a policeman. My dad had actually done three years of of pre med schools, University of Oklahoma and, uh, had to drop out both for financial reasons. And because he had asthma so bad it was, you know, he had a hard time, but he was an excellent student.

00:02:02.040 - 00:02:20.750

Andi. I think it always stuck in his craw that he never had the opportunity to finish it. And the money was going towards his sister, who was really a beautiful woman, and she was off at Juilliard and doing, you know, and then doing the Broadway thing or a t least trying to make in that direction.

00:02:21.140 - 00:02:45.930

So anyway, that's where the money went on, De. So he couldn't finish. And like I said, eventually he went to Panama on. Of course, you know my mom and both of from little tiny towns in in Oklahoma. Uh, for May I lived. I was born. I want to say that we lived in Gamba when I was born on.

00:02:45.930 - 00:03:09.810

Then we moved to ball ball on the Pacific side, both of and then, uh, then or an con. I think it was an con first. And then Balbo on. Then, you know, people transfer back and forth with employment there. On a some point, I think I was in the third grade in my folks transferred to the Atlantic side.

00:03:09.910 - 00:03:29.720

And, uh, yeah, what kind of work did your father dio? He was a policeman originally. And then there was my best of my recollection was there was some kind of ah e don't call it coalescing. But there was a mingling of some sort between customs work and immigration.

00:03:29.730 - 00:03:48.060

And I guess they kind of did those two functions. And somehow or another he did. He did Customs and immigration work as well as best I recollect on. Eventually he got into ad measurement on De. So he spent most of his career doing the ad measurement work for the canal on.

00:03:48.060 - 00:04:17.270

Then he died in 67. And at that point, you know, if you weren't employed in Canal, you couldn't stay there. There was some limited exceptions. That was kind of a grandfather clause for some old folks, very old folks. Ah, so at that point, you know, my mom and younger brother had to leave, and so they went up to the Northwest and spent the rest of the time up there.

00:04:18.440 - 00:04:36.590

But in my own case, let's see, when I finished high school, I got an apprenticeship with the canal organization for a couple of years. Things did not go too well for me, so I went to college after that, and the University of Oklahoma, actually University, Southern Mississippi for the first year.

00:04:36.600 - 00:04:54.490

University of Oklahoma finished on. Then I had my draft papers before I got back when I graduated. My dad met me with papers when the ship came in on then, but they had a real delay, and that was in the beginning of the end of the school year.

00:04:54.490 - 00:05:11.880

Okay, the first part of summer. And then, uh, they didn't actually get me in the military till it was almost a February 7th of This was 66 when I got the papers in February 67 when actually got around processing me, you know, So that was kind of a period where you can't do anything.

00:05:11.880 - 00:05:32.500

You're not employable. If you have draft papers, canals on won't employ. Uh, if you don't have any experience, you didn't have anything to offer in Panama. But you're physically there, so you're kind of in limbo. So I was in limbo during that period. Uh, and and and and and then I got when I got drafted, and I went off the basic training and a i t.

00:05:32.500 - 00:05:58.130

They call it a band century infantry training. And I was processing for Vietnam in Oakland when I got the word my dad died. So then I went back and help my mom pack up in my younger brother and leave And, uh, they once once that was accomplished, I had to get I had to get what they call a temporary compassionate reassignment, uh, from the military, and they had no problem doing that.

00:05:58.130 - 00:06:22.780

Your, you know, your pastor, somebody writes a letter, and they give you 30 days or 60 days wherever you need to get the job accomplished. But there was a riel glitch there in my file. Went on to Nam, and, uh, and they had me a wall in Oakland and my I married in January just before being drafted, uh, to my wife, Elaine, who's the Canal Zone girl, too.

00:06:22.790 - 00:06:43.750

And so she was getting letters from Oakland, you know, saying, you know, you really you know, this is a very serious matter, and I'm in touch with the military the whole time. I mean, there's never was a moment when I wasn't in touch with military, but she kept getting the letters, and it was problematic, but And what happened with the file going to Nam?

00:06:43.750 - 00:07:03.270

I just became kind of lost in the system, so to speak. And, uh So when my mom was gone and her mom was a teacher down there. So and and their their folks had just split about that same time. And so we stayed with her, uh, during that period and I had the pastor, and actually, they assigned me Thio.

00:07:03.280 - 00:07:16.880

The military told me, just report to Fort Davis. You know, uh, on I did that religiously. And then and then they would say, you know, come in every day. I came in every day and say, Well, come back next week and then you know, we'll call you kind of thing on.

00:07:16.890 - 00:07:33.390

Then I ended up when when my mother in law was transferred over to the bauble of Pacific Side Way were with her there. And I did the same thing at Fort Amador, which was headquarters, and did the same thing. And it was the same thing. You know, they will call you and nothing was happening.

00:07:33.400 - 00:07:52.020

Uh, which ideally, would be neat, because the clock was running on my two year hitch. A draftee. You know, not many people during the Vietnam era wanted to be there. Uh, So, at any rate, I bugged him and bugged him, and they were in the process of reconstituting my what they call a 201 file in military is a personnel file.

00:07:52.030 - 00:08:08.500

And eventually the file came back. And then they said they said, uh and they got the thing sorted out. I finally told me, Can't you guys pick up the phone and call the Oakland? I'm not a long, you know. This is becoming a problem. Yeah, they got it started out.

00:08:08.510 - 00:08:28.610

Uh, but then everybody was short term Vietnam short of personnel because their troops were going over there and they had a headquarters office and command to run down in Panama. So they asked me, Would you like to stay here? And I said, You betcha. On DSO they said They said, Well, with personnel people I was dealing with, They said, Would you like to work here?

00:08:28.620 - 00:08:45.640

I said, Sounds good to Maine, but they said, Well, we see you went thio. Army intelligence is combat. Is clerk glorified intelligence clerk? You know what I was trained for? And so they said, Well, g to office wants you to interview you over there. So go over there and do that.

00:08:45.650 - 00:09:05.550

So I went over there and that was their conditioned. The personnel office was not air conditioned. So I said, I think I'll go on since that's where my training was. You know, they had first pick, and it worked for May I mean nothing better than to be a draftee, you know, with orders to go to Vietnam in a war does not looking so good at that point.

00:09:05.540 - 00:09:28.070

And and And you have the opportunity to of two nice jobs in Panama on. So I say it and I got out there and then e took the federal service entrance examination. And, you know, the police examine the marine traffic control exam and things like that in a few months, I was hired and I went into personnel is what it was personal management.

00:09:28.540 - 00:09:47.020

And I started officers training, you know, with the states would be a GS five down there and then m five, we administratively adopted the federal personnel system. Basically. So anyway, I started off in classifications. I don't know how much of this stuff we want to get into, but I saw Started off in is a position classifications specialist.

00:09:47.020 - 00:10:03.220

And he started to five and you get promoted Thio, you know, every six months up to, I think, the nine level. And then there's a year journeymen level, which is 11. And that was fairly decent salary for those days. And that was, you know, the journeymen level of most most occupations.

00:10:03.220 - 00:10:25.270

Whether you are an engineer, uh, or an accountant, you know, the which normal professional discipline is a great 11. You know, federally was the journeymen level and in personal management, personal administration. It was too. So anyway, Mike, Mike, my college wasn't in personnel or public administration, but it didn't seem to matter.

00:10:25.270 - 00:10:40.870

The guy who created a vacancy that left his major was in biology, you know, So it didn't seem to matter. It's just a requirement that have a college degree, you know? So anyway, did that? Andi? I was really fortunate. And I don't e could go forever in a job.

00:10:40.880 - 00:11:09.970

I don't wanna do that. But, uh, I was really fortunate that I got a really diverse experience, much more so than most people. Because when you're a position classifier, it's a job. Analysts and you know people they had a requirement. Every I forget every three years, every every three or five years, every position in the Canal organization had to be studied to see if the duties and responsibilities were consistent within the job description, consistent with the person who's actually doing.

00:11:09.980 - 00:11:26.810

And the pay was commensurate. So you had to do that. And so that was part of the job. Those were the routine audits, they call it. But additionally, anybody could request that has their job grade looked at, you know, if they thought they were doing more responsible stuff, then they weren't being properly compensated.

00:11:26.810 - 00:11:43.350

So anyway, I went through that and having been in Atlantic cider and the main office was on the Pacific side, they had a vacancy come up on the Atlantic side and nobody wanted it. And it gave me the opportunity, you know, to get back to my I prefer the Atlantic side.

00:11:43.350 - 00:12:01.610

I mean at that time anyway. So I went back to the Atlantic side and things worked out really well. And I think I bounced back and forth across the isthmus at least two, maybe three times. It seemed like every time you turned around every six or eight months, there's going back and forth.

00:12:01.620 - 00:12:21.170

But then then after and then they made me chief of the Crystal Ball personnel office, which there were people there more senior, and it was a bad choice. They had no business picking me for that job. But it was, you know, supervisory is different than non supervisory, and I really even had taken the courses and stuff, you know, it was, but I mean, it worked.

00:12:21.170 - 00:12:35.890

I stumbled along and things were fine. Maybe wanna edit out this stumbling part, But, I mean, it's one of those things where you, you know, you put in for the job because you have the opportunity. It's a great higher than you were. So I did that for a while, and then I got you know, I really got tired.

00:12:35.900 - 00:12:53.100

Oh, before that, though, I guess it's part of the training. Uh, they had what they called adverse and disciplinary action. So you're gonna fire somebody, Or if it's a severe disciplinary action and like a suspension of of I e. Can't remember this point was 15 or more days or 30 or more days.

00:12:53.110 - 00:13:11.760

Uh, then, you know, the personnel shop ended up really doing You went and interviewed the supervisor and the employees, and you had to do all the paperwork normal, smaller discipline that was done in the field by the supervision, you know. But when it got to the big stuff in the firing, people in the personnel office did all the work.

00:13:12.240 - 00:13:31.210

And so and I and I had a really good stint in that office, and I had an opportunity to relieve. Is Chief of the record section and on the whole records processing. And I was and I and I also spent at least a year or so and the employment side of it, uh, and I and that was local employment.

00:13:31.210 - 00:13:44.760

We call as opposed to us recruit because we still work. States recruited a whole bunch of folks. Anyway, my point is, I had an opportunity to work around in various disciplines of personal administration, so that was a pretty good background for a pretty short period of time.

00:13:45.140 - 00:14:01.280

And then in 19, I think it was 1975. I decided that e didn't feel like I was You know, there's some jobs you just don't feel like, uh I mean, you understand your cog in the organization, but it doesn't really feel like you're accomplishing anything, you know, It says You know, it's like the old thing.

00:14:01.280 - 00:14:15.970

I come before you to stand behind you, tell you something I know nothing about. You know, it's sort of that feeling. So I wanted to get in line management and in one of our operations. So, uh, the bureau director of the transportation terminals, Burak, the time on the Atlantic side.

00:14:15.940 - 00:14:31.870

I got to know him because I was servicing his organization. You know, that's what you did. You know, you service the operating bureaus, you call him, and, uh, they wanted me to go over there and do some personnel work for him as an employee of the organization.

00:14:31.870 - 00:14:43.970

And so we kind of had a little informal deal that I'll tell you what. They would give me an opportunity to train in line management if I would do some staff work for him. So I did that for a year, and then they were good, you know?

00:14:43.980 - 00:14:59.150

So I worked for the motor transportation division. I was the acting chief of the crystal district for I think, six months I had an opportunity to work in the water transportation division. Which the The ship. You know, the SS Cristobal a little, little bit. I had a good exposure to the marine bunkering operation.

00:14:59.640 - 00:15:17.600

Uh, I did a lot of the personnel work for the pure operation, so we had five divisions there and I had least some exposure in the railroad was the other. And then I ultimately ended up as the act as not the act. I was actually the assistant manager, the railroad, for two years, and but I wasn't a railroader.

00:15:17.610 - 00:15:47.140

And it's a tight, tight group. And if you're not a railroader, you know, you're you're really not accepted, so I have no problem. The bosses there was no, you know, that was but it was the workers. These guys were railroads, guys, you know, if you're not a railroader, you ain't, And that's that's so that was not a problem, except that, you know, you have that lack of acceptability, but Okay, uh, So anyway, I I did that for two years and and really ended up doing a lot of staff work there more than more than line stuff.

00:15:47.140 - 00:16:03.750

And and then the, uh, the that job. The chief's job became vacant there, and I had the Boston very records. Colonel Clark asked me if I wanted, you know, you want to see me put in for it, and I going out really not interested in. So what happened, then?

00:16:03.750 - 00:16:27.120

The treaty transition stuff started up and establishes binational working committees, and I was assigned to the one with the some of the division chiefs, and I think it was just division chiefs that handle that Aziz heading up those various committees. And so I worked on the transition of the Transportation Terminals Bureau.

00:16:27.120 - 00:16:42.220

So our five divisions were all going to Panama lock, stock and barrel. So, you know, you had they were they were slowly, They actually didn't do too bad a job getting people in for the transition there. And I think most, most of those divisions things went fairly smoothly.

00:16:42.230 - 00:17:08.950

Uh, and then in 79 so So I guess the my point was a line management thing kind of fizzled there, Uh, some of it being me and some of it being just overtaken by events. So at that point, I was affected by reduction force, which was one of things on here, you know, and I was reassigned to the Pacific side and a slot that was vacated in the Marine Bureau and there was a guy J.

00:17:08.950 - 00:17:23.830

C. Dire had been the labor represented. We had a very elementary labor management program in the canal in those days, and it was administered by the personnel Bureau is And it was like 11 guy, one guy and a half, you know, that really did the labor stuff.

00:17:23.830 - 00:17:52.200

One high level person and and then 11 mid level. And then there was there was some kind of, ah, job action involving the pilots. And the guy at the mid level is a sacrificial lamb there. And but at the same time, in 1979 not only did we have the treaty, but you had the Civil Service Reform Act, the United States so and the law of the act itself put the Panama Canal.

00:17:52.210 - 00:18:15.200

You know, the act was applicable to the canal. But moreover, the treaty had expressed language that made a subject thio the U. S. Federal labor management relations. Uh, you know, Statue. So we had it both ways, but it modified the application of that statute in several respects, and I'd have to really think about it for a minute to come up with supervisors being in bargain.

00:18:15.200 - 00:18:38.670

You know, it was one of them that was a major ones that you don't even see that in the States. But anyway, it's It was the program that applied most of the federal service and getting back to what I was saying, though, that I went into the slot that JC Dire in the Marine Bureau and eso I had opportunity because even though it was, it all happened in 79.

00:18:38.680 - 00:19:08.660

I we didn't really get into the new law that fast. The new labor program and what we had was a very simple executive order president Way were under the Kennedy Executive Order in 62. Uh, that was Oh, 12196 I want to say it waas and then, uh and we were still operating under the under that Kennedy order which, which which was the authority for the federal government.

00:19:08.660 - 00:19:37.880

Well, but in the meantime, I think in 1972 Nixon put out Executive order 11 491 And that was the one that that everybody in the States was going by and and it it really had most of the elements that later were codified on the statute in the Reform Act of 79 but the under the original under the Kennedy Order, you recognize unions and you have an obligation to consult with them, but they really didn't have any rights to speak of.

00:19:37.890 - 00:19:52.390

Okay, so it's very, very simple. Toothless program way had lots of unions. We had unions since since the construction days. You know, the canal had we had a whole host of unions? A matter of fact, they all had their ties. They were all F l C i o unions.

00:19:52.400 - 00:20:12.220

So at any rate, ast time marched on here on the treaty came along. We, the States that had the opportunity to the federal government, you know, to transition from the old Kennedy ordered Thio to the next in order, which had collective bargaining in it, you know, and unions had lots of rights, but they still didn't negotiate over substantive things.

00:20:12.220 - 00:20:32.290

It was it was mostly process and procedure and stuff like that. This is boring. I know. I should leave the subject e on. My I've been retired 12 years to try and remember This stuff is a little taxing, but anyway, what we always said is we had to make the 20 year leaked.

00:20:32.290 - 00:20:52.400

The states had the opportunity. Thio get under the Nixon order and do collective bargaining and, you know, deal with arbitrators and things like that were. You know, agency management doesn't like to be have their their their their judgment. Second guessed. Okay, and it's just it's just an inherent thing.

00:20:52.400 - 00:21:13.420

And management the last thing they wanted. Somebody substitute their judgment for them. And under our system, they always had the last shot under the new system under under the under the Nixon system, that executive order system with collective bargaining that was no longer the case and agency decisions were subject to third party of reviewing in the areas in certain areas.

00:21:13.420 - 00:21:32.210

Okay, and then under under the under the statute that codified and it was, really, you know, it was really a very complex legal system with a lot of third party involvement. There was there was third party procedures to resolve negotiation disputes for unfair labor practices. It was a different channel.

00:21:32.220 - 00:21:57.060

Grievance arbitration was another channel, and agency management, you know, just had a hard time understanding and but they had made the leap from a 62 labor program all the way to, you know, this highfalutin, very complicated, sophisticated program. And and And it was hard Thio, even though they went to training classes, everything else, some of them took it aboard.

00:21:57.070 - 00:22:15.210

Others really never did all that well, and and and in some respects, they could coast and weren't bothered by it too much in other respects. And every now and it would bite him because the the remedies in some of these cases, you know, you had to post post notices, you know, male culpas.

00:22:15.210 - 00:22:39.000

You're sorry. You know, we're gonna do this anymore. And then you had to make restitution in some cases and management hates that. They just really dio And so it was a bitter pill to swallow. But anyway, uh, as we got in that system and administrative law judges came down to the States and held that they call representational proceedings to decide how we're gonna carve up the agency workforce in the bargaining units And who's gonna be the exclusive representative?

00:22:39.000 - 00:22:57.440

You know, it really is a an adversary system is what it is. I mean by design, where the unions representing employees none of this paternalism anymore, whereas agency management we know what's best for our employees. No, no, it's not your that's not your domain anymore. It's the unions properly, the unions domain under the statute that was hard for everybody.

00:22:57.450 - 00:23:19.570

Understand? Also. So at any rate, I had the opportunity to get in on the ground floor and learn the new system. Now, the guys in the States that were in the system when the when the when the statute came out, they everything because the guys that come down and teach courses to us to train us and from office of personal management and every their whole I remember the first course of the reference.

00:23:19.570 - 00:23:32.170

Everything in the statue was, yeah, the old system was an executive order system. They said, Yeah, an executive order. That was paragraph so Blankety blank. So everything in her mind was, Where is that? You know, in the new system, where was that In the old system.

00:23:32.180 - 00:23:52.530

And and it was So they're thinking went like that, that also some really didn't count anymore. It was it was helpful background, but you didn't need it. Unfortunately, I've learned, you know, just vertically in that and had the opportunity. And, uh, and so in the next thing you know, we're involved in actually negotiating contracts with these guys and a major major difference.

00:23:52.530 - 00:24:08.890

So a couple of major differences, but one waas that in the federal system, like I say, paying French benefits were not negotiable. And it isn't because it says they're not. It says that any matter specifically provided for by statute is not negotiable, and Congress sets pay and fringe benefits in the federal sector.

00:24:08.890 - 00:24:24.380

Generally you have you have oddball agencies that aren't covered, and they're excluded by that statute for national security reasons or whatever else. Uh, but for the most part, the bulk of the federal sector, you know is in there and and it's not meeting. It's not the big issues.

00:24:24.380 - 00:24:55.050

They don't negotiate over again. This process, for the most part on impact. Adverse impact. Well, new system, uh, the the canal way. Although although the system applied to us is a matter of law, the pay and fringe benefits, as we found out because they litigate unions litigated, were all negotiable and way never had to negotiate base pay only because the unions didn't didn't really push it that hard.

00:24:55.060 - 00:25:09.600

I mean, they they ended up the pilots union was, of course, the first one out of the chute. The one that you know that way changed the whole compensation system for them for pilots. And and, you know, our people would argue that was needed because we're having trouble recruiting them when we're having trouble retaining them.

00:25:09.600 - 00:25:34.910

Because we are competitive with the industry. That I mean, we decided, you know, the calls were such that we had to goto masters of unlimited license. You know, any ocean? Uh, any size vessel s. So we had the highest calls you could possibly get. But when you do that to yourself, uh, you know, it's since been shown because we had apprenticeships for pilots and train them and they don't have a master's license for any ocean or any vessel.

00:25:34.910 - 00:25:48.580

You know, they just take ships to the battle on canal. So we didn't have to compete with the industry, but we did. It was it was a choice that was made, and besides that were states recruited all these guys, and they were a bunch of high powered guys, really, and a bunch of smart guys.

00:25:48.590 - 00:26:16.640

And Andi the canal management didn't didn't really change that. They they kind of over time, they changed the qualifications, you know, Went from Masters toe first mate. And then the second mate, You know, the qualifications. So the quality case came down over time, and then And also, these training programs were developed for these for these folks, but so we weren't competing with the industry, but we were still paying a competitive way.

00:26:16.640 - 00:26:35.950

So they developed this whole bonus system for for a premium pay. Uh, and eso we didn't a ghost there. Basic pay. I mean, it was like I think it maxed out around 86,000 or something. This is back in in the 19 nineties someplace, okay? But they might make 150,000 at that time.

00:26:36.040 - 00:26:47.480

But it was all in printing in the bucket was a premium pay, and the disadvantaged of them is premium pay. It didn't really help their retirement because it didn't count towards retirement, so there was still a basic pay issue. I'm going way too deep for you anyway.

00:26:47.490 - 00:27:02.130

Uh, like I say, I had the opportunity Thio, get in our train from the ground up had a world of experience in the labor game. It was the first thing I had done that, really, really, you know, I found a great interest in, and it just happened to be the way it felt.

00:27:02.130 - 00:27:22.210

It was a very small office. The head reported directly to the administrator. He was one of the one of the handful of senior managers in the canal organization, and I got that job in 85. So for the last 13 years I was there. I ran the labor management relations program for the canal and that Z it was a great job, was really challenging at the end.

00:27:22.210 - 00:27:42.600

It became really hard because I mean really challenging because the canal it made a not the canal, but actually sexually. The army from mistaking made a decision that since Panama wasn't really building the the organization to receive the canal organization in their own law, they're supposed to be doing that during the tour.

00:27:42.610 - 00:28:01.870

Through the 1st 10 years of transition they had done and we were odds with Panama, US government, government not not to canal, but us and Panama over the whole Noriega thing. You know, and, uh, relations. Official relations were not good. And there was a lot of problems in Panama on a lot of guys have trouble getting work with all the riots and demonstrations and stuff like that.

00:28:02.340 - 00:28:25.350

So, at any rate, the, uh I'm losing my train of thought. Can you play back that last sentence? Can we do that or not? You don't wanna do that. I could try Thio talking. E think it was in 85. Some change. The Panamanians weren't building up.

00:28:25.360 - 00:28:48.840

Yeah, the O E Alright. Yeah, yeah. What happened? Uh, e lost it again. Tell me again. Tell me again what a pain. Comedians weren't building up their own, okay? They didn't build the organization received now. And so anyway, the leadership came in the top of our organization, which was really Secretary of the Army.

00:28:48.850 - 00:28:59.200

They said, no, we're gonna do They're not gonna do it. We can't let this just happen this way because at the end of the day, it's gonna reflect on us and we're gonna be blamed for not doing it, even though they're the ones that didn't do it.

00:28:59.200 - 00:29:22.220

So anyway, that was my understanding of that whole thing maybe other people would give you a different take. So, at any rate, again we set up by national committees and everything and each functional major functional unit. The canal had an organization that had to work with Panamanian counterparts to try toe Thio, write the laws, you know, for their legislature to approve, to get this whole machinery going.

00:29:22.230 - 00:29:39.250

And at the end, you only had to do your job, which was everything that your job always entailed. Plus, you had do another whole thing with no more people to do it. So it was really, really I mean, it was just, you know, you're working 12 hours a day, seven days a week and just, you know, it was it wasn't fun.

00:29:39.260 - 00:29:57.270

Uh, So and I left in 98 the end of May. I could have stayed to the end. And of course, they didn't want me to leave. But But I had 97. I'd come up. I never really thought I retired States. I kind of thought I retired down there, but things got to the point where I was I was ready to go.

00:29:57.280 - 00:30:15.100

I've been there. Born here in 42 have been almost all my life. And I was, you know, I kind of had it. So you relocate to where did you relocate to? I went to Tallahassee. Okay. Yeah. Joe would you know it was Tallahassee. And a bunch of folks of my friends were Tallahassee, and we didn't really know we were gonna do that.

00:30:15.100 - 00:30:36.360

We went up to look and start there. I never been there on then. We were going to kind of go south from there and just check out different places. That was the objective in summer 97. And it turned out I thought, Tallahassee is beautiful, you know, hilly and green and actually have, you know, the seasons and the lower part of Florida I don't care for because it's flattened glare e and hot and sticky.

00:30:36.360 - 00:30:50.040

And I'm not a beach person, so I really like Tallahassee. And I haven't regretted. But I do regret the yard that I ended up getting. I've never had done a yard, and I now I'm kind of a yard guy. Uh, not fun, but you have to do it.

00:30:50.050 - 00:31:09.790

Do you miss your work? The work I never missed never looked back a day. Never a day when it's that intense. Uh, no. I had no trouble retiring. And I've never done anything since I retired. E have you come back to visit? Nope. I've been back No desire to.

00:31:09.800 - 00:31:26.500

I had no desire and needed my wife for the longest time. But we're finally at a 0.12 years down the road where maybe we're thinking maybe we will go back. Did your wife work? A Well, Yeah. She was a teacher. Okay. Yeah, she retired with She's three years younger than I am.

00:31:26.500 - 00:31:40.470

She retired with 23 years. I think the last five years or so we were down or she was retired because they had a really early retirement thing for for the teachers. And so she took advantage of all you had for 23 years of service, I think, regardless of age.

00:31:40.480 - 00:31:58.130

But she was 40 something. At what level did you teach? She was She taught special education for elementary. Was that on a military base? It ended up being there. Yeah, it was originally of course it wasn't. But the whole all of our civil functions transferred to the military.

00:31:58.140 - 00:32:21.070

You know, the hospital in the schools and, uh, postal on. You know, the typical civil type functions all ended up going toe department fence. So they got the schools. Yeah, but, uh, that was that was the work side of life down there. What I enjoyed most was the other side, which is a place I'd tell us about.

00:32:21.080 - 00:32:37.930

Yeah, what I did is in high school, I didn't play sports. Uh, what? I was a fisherman on the Atlantic side. Fishing was well, that last idea, it wasn't much there, really there. Honestly, it wasn't like the Pacific side. There just wasn't a whole lot there.

00:32:37.930 - 00:32:54.020

But you had the lake for anything you want to do in the lake. And it was a lot of good fishing in Lake in those days. That's all changed. I think the the that bass that got accidentally introduced into the lake that, you know, just ravenously went through, You know, the row of all the other fish.

00:32:54.020 - 00:33:15.950

And basically, all you have there nowadays is the bass. But what? You used to have a lot of tarp in a lot of snuck Jack you had Those are the three mainland's. I'd say you had, but you had you had. I mean, it was there are a lot of places in the lake that were really good to fish, but after the bass thing happened, it took a few years, you know, before the effect of that just wiped out everything.

00:33:15.940 - 00:33:36.590

Yeah, earlier, I had been talking to a gentleman about the invasive aquatic plant species using a problem for the boats and the great measures that the community had to take to kind of eradicate these really destructive plans, which was very interesting on Do they? They imported a South African fish.

00:33:36.600 - 00:33:53.560

I'm not sure if you're familiar with it. I know that they brought these carp type Fisher or something that supposedly got huge. You're supposed to eat all that high drilling everything. But they didn't work very well. Apparently didn't work very well. They over the years, they tried a number of things, but they had a unit.

00:33:53.560 - 00:34:07.510

I think, in addressing division whose job it was was just, you know, I think copper sulfate, things like that they'd have to spray toe, beat him back, and then they have, uh, kind of booms that they would put out, you know, like like they're doing on the oil in the gulf right now to try to hold the hydrilla back.

00:34:07.520 - 00:34:27.680

But very, very invasive. Did it ever, um, hinder your fishing? Uh, you know, the yes and no. Everything from the lake when they opened the gates of Gattuso would go down into lower shadows river, and they had a boat dock down there, and it times the high drilling everything.

00:34:27.690 - 00:34:39.790

You'd almost lose the dock in it. You know, you have tow plow your way in a boat to get out from their stuff. But for a long time, it was just over in one corner. Nobody ever went thio, and then over time, it kind of took over the place.

00:34:40.340 - 00:35:05.860

But, uh, that when you're putting a lot of fresh water down, I guess it did. OK, But if you stop the fresh water, which they did for various operational reasons, you know, with lack of rainfall or whatever, the salt basically salt water. You know, it always floats the freshwater, but a lot of a lot of salt water there, uh, on I think maybe that kind of kept it from going, you know, further further than it did at that point.

00:35:06.540 - 00:35:22.410

but growing up there it was e wouldn't trade, you know, growing up on the Atlantic side and fishing in the spillway for anything. I mean, we lived there every every. I probably didn't start until about seventh grade or something like that going out there. And even then it was a little spotty.

00:35:22.410 - 00:35:37.170

But then is it picked up there to the end of high school? There was a group of us that was, at times, at least 30 of us. And they had they had these You probably heard about these old military Quance it huts that were out there and a matter of fact, the old harping club was a military Qantas ahead itself.

00:35:37.180 - 00:35:52.840

And we had what we called a junior membership club and actually issued you a little. You had to catch a tarp in when you got your first sharpen. You probably took it in there and and the club would issue you. You fell our application. They just send you a little junior membership card with tarpon.

00:35:52.840 - 00:36:07.760

I, uh well, I was remember how long I went forever before I finally got I lost a billion of them, but I couldn't catch one You know, I finally got it a little when I did about £12. But a £12 carpets about like that. They're thin fish.

00:36:07.770 - 00:36:29.540

Yeah, but anyway, then it was 22 aspects of that one was the fishing camaraderie, you know? And we spend weekends out there, you know, and we just take a can of beans or something like that, you know? And if we catch a snook or something, maybe somebody tried to cook up the snuck.

00:36:29.550 - 00:36:46.090

Nobody had any money. You know, you couldn't really buy anything at this parking club. Little, that little restaurant snack kind of thing. But most times, nobody had any money. Uh, but way really had a great time doing that. It was a pretty tight group of us that did that, but it was swimming there.

00:36:46.090 - 00:37:07.930

That was just a much fun. Because you're swimming below the dam. You have. You have to see it running to really appreciate it. And, uh, what it has the dam is up here, you know, and then it comes down and it goes across this cement apron with these high walls on either side, and then it gets to the edge of the water goes down and it creates rapids as it goes over.

00:37:07.940 - 00:37:23.750

Well, so the cement ends at the edge of the apron, they call it, and, uh, it creates these backwaters. And so when you swim there, if you just try to swim out, I mean, it's going to shoot you down. So we had you had to learn how to get from one backwater to the next to try to make it all the way across.

00:37:23.750 - 00:37:38.700

And when you got to the far side, it was really hard because of the, uh, instead of water going out, it dropped pretty deep down and had a neddy curtain when it would kind of draw into it. So the worst you could get three quarters of cost across, everything was good.

00:37:38.700 - 00:37:54.580

And then you kind of want to go down, you know, dive out and go down, but way swam. Golly, I'm telling you, E never wanted to stop. You know, you didn't get tired when you were young, you know, and we'd swim e You could swim 67 hours.

00:37:54.580 - 00:38:08.490

You know, whatever. I'm just all day, you know, it's a fish weren't biting. We went swimming. That's really it. Waas Andi. Uh, there were obviously times of the year when the tarp in would come in target. Words are so thick they there you just seeing it looks like minnows.

00:38:08.490 - 00:38:27.960

You know, there were so many of them. They're different times of year. I don't think they do that anymore. The patterns have changed, you know. But on Snook season was October, starting around October, every year on the snow came in and not only they come in, but when rand was getting pretty heavy rainy season, they open the gates and a lot of snuck they've been in the late come down and place is just full of snuck.

00:38:28.420 - 00:38:47.030

Um, so fishing was really neat. And probably others have told you about chumming there. We had what we called the chum hole. You heard about that? I haven't heard about that being done in Panama, but I know that. Okay, Well, what we had there was when you went down below, there was a set of steps on each side that went down the walls.

00:38:47.030 - 00:39:02.730

Like I say is, here you go down the steps and they had a little point that you could cement on either side. You could fish on its long cast cast out there. Well, every every year you had shrimp runs and salmon runs. We call them shrimp or a little teeny shrimp.

00:39:02.740 - 00:39:18.680

But they came up by the millions and they came up the staggers on. They worked their way along the bank, and then they would they would get there, and we had. There was a square hole, uh, below the apron over on the side where main water's going here.

00:39:18.680 - 00:39:45.030

And this was this was some kind of fairy. It would always had moss on it. So it's fairly. It was rock, though, of some sort, but very smooth, almost like cement. Some places. And then there was a square hole that had been cut out. You know, back when it was constructed, I guess, and it was a rectangle we called square rectangle, actually, and it was maybe from here to the end of the table, Onda about as wide as this and maybe is deep to the floor.

00:39:45.020 - 00:39:59.790

That thing would load up with shrimp and shrimp season and salmon during Samson, a little tiny silver guys like that, but they came in by the billions to So you take a screen from your you know, the windows type screen. Get a guy in the gym, you hold it down and you go down to scoop up.

00:39:59.800 - 00:40:19.600

And you could get, you know, fell five, maybe 25 gallon buckets, just with one pass. And so what we do normally is, uh, usually you're getting it. At a time when the fish weren't there, the fish came in in the afternoon is a rule. So you take a block ice, back, toe, block, ice.

00:40:19.600 - 00:40:32.150

I could block ice on it and keep it nice and fresh until later in the afternoon. The afternoon you walk further down the bank and there was your Now your you're looking at the deeper section. Okay. You know, taking ball it up. Throw it out here.

00:40:32.150 - 00:40:50.680

You have your hook and tarp instructor. They flash when they go through on their side. You know, you get 567 Turpin, something like that. So it was That was the old chum in anybody's ever fish boy back in those days knows that jump jump. But that was a great way to fishing or something about casting and catching fish from the bank.

00:40:50.690 - 00:41:04.230

I think that is I like it better than the boat because the boat you're following the fish, the bank and particularly when you have the kind of current you had their You know, a lot of times we get stripped, you know, you get you get a big one on and he headed for the center.

00:41:04.250 - 00:41:21.300

When you got out there and went down on you, you couldn't stop him on your line's gone. It costs about two bucks or something to get another sideline. We didn't have to buck. So not fun. It was fly fishing at all. Popular was that there was a couple of guys that fly fish, But but almost no one fly fish.

00:41:21.310 - 00:41:38.770

Yeah, it was. It was that you couldn't do it. It just wasn't popular. For some reason, I don't know why. And you have plenty of room to work it. You know, if you wanted Thio, But anyway, that was great. But then after after I came back, you know, leaving the canals, I'm going off to school in military and then come back.

00:41:38.770 - 00:41:57.590

I never really got back. I did do some fishing. I remember in the 66 when I was waiting to be going to military, I had a dead period there. That was the first time they opened the all 14 gates in 45 years, I think. Or since 1945 that was the last time, all 14 gates that God had been open.

00:41:57.600 - 00:42:09.620

And so I mean, that was a really event. Uh, and the place filled up with fish, you know? And so all that time that I was sitting there waiting to go in the military, I was fishing almost every day, and that was pretty much the last that I ever did.

00:42:09.620 - 00:42:22.180

A real serious fishing. And I never was a guy that like to go out to sea and fish and stuff like that. So then I got into Ji Ping and I'd be so for 30 years, I did off road writings, Really, what I did down there and I was now lose.

00:42:23.000 - 00:42:39.090

There's probably better places like I don't know of any often for doing it. And it's good because you could go pretty much where you want up and down the country. You know, everything is not owned, you know, it's in there on the challenge was always to try toe Thio.

00:42:39.100 - 00:42:58.440

You know you'd see a trail or maybe in the dry season they bulldoze through some place. But, you know, go find out where it went. Go as far as you could go and find a way. Found the way that that, you know, to get across the isthmus from one side to the other on a jeep and and one part of it there was 12 miles back to the very end.

00:42:58.440 - 00:43:15.180

When I started doing this, there was no no trail or nothing. I mean, it was a footpath back there, Uh, and it was hard to get to to that on either in because there wasn't much of a road there at all. And in rainy season, you know, that's that's the most challenging time to do it.

00:43:15.190 - 00:43:27.760

Because then is everything muddy and slippery. And so anyway, I did that and that led me down to get into the dairy and section of Panama on dso. I've spent a lot of Jeep in time, and then I got in a prospecting with my buddies Gold.

00:43:27.770 - 00:43:49.100

We have gold dredges and and way worked between four wheeling up and down the country and taking dredges and going off and way up rivers all up and down the country. I guess I did that from 81. I did the GP from 68. I want to say 68.

00:43:49.110 - 00:44:07.630

Did you ever get stranded anywhere? Oh, yeah. E had had military jeeps at first. They you know, they got rid of him down there. They got rid of in parks and we reassemble them, you know, e on. Then later on, they started cutting them up because they were tippy jeeps, you know, and military been sued, I think.

00:44:07.630 - 00:44:22.050

And there was a lot of GIs died with those things flipping. And so they had cut him up and literally cut four pieces. But a number of occasions I didn't do it, But I had a friend that that I had a place with, You know, they put it back together again.

00:44:22.060 - 00:44:37.910

You know, just well it back up again. Yeah, but we had that We had all kinds of parts farm and you had to because military Jeep, it was It was a lousy jeep. It really waas It wasn't like the old willies that they use in the Korean War vintage, which was a good Jeep.

00:44:37.920 - 00:44:54.830

This thing was Vietnam era Jeep was not a good deep. It was. It was the smoothest writing one off road. But it never got you home got you out. But you didn't get you back. You have to have, you know, finding local with his horses going by and try to pull the jeep out of the mud or whatever.

00:44:54.830 - 00:45:08.660

You know that happened. You get stuck and spend the night out there, and that happened a few times. So in 82 I got a new Willy's Jeep and I a lot, and I put everything on it. You could all the special equipment to make sure you got home, you know?

00:45:08.670 - 00:45:26.910

And then I never had a problem after that. As far as being stuck someplace overnight. Uhh it pretty much. We're going well, I still have that Jeep Marathon shipping to the States and got a lot of work on it. And who knows? Maybe one day we'll get back down there, do some do some more.

00:45:26.910 - 00:45:41.810

But that's that was really what I did for years and years and years was just, you know, Ji Ping and prospecting way dredged in the rivers we dredge below Fort San Lorenzo We had a big dredge we used down there found, you know, the old Spanish coins.

00:45:41.810 - 00:46:04.900

You know, things like that. So that was that was the fun. It was great life. Great place to raise kids. You know, I had a son and a daughter. My son's 42. Now that my daughter 40 or 41 something like that. Uhh. And you know, I I thoroughly enjoyed the opportunity to grow up down there.

00:46:04.910 - 00:46:32.690

E think they did too. It was a great place to raise kids great places. Uh, if you're like outdoor activity particularly, you know, there's just virtually anything you wanna do. You can dio uh there's a lot of things I'd like to do. I never did dio you don't get around to doing them, but and then, you know you Baru is the mountain, you know, settled in the in the interior up in the Cherokee problems.

00:46:32.690 - 00:46:55.000

That's 11,200 ft. So it's a good size mountain up there in the highlands. Yeah, I didn't climb that e like to died. It took took way too long because it was either nine or 11 hours or something like that from the base on. What happened, though, was I had the flu really bad.

00:46:55.000 - 00:47:16.950

I was sick and a dog in bed, but this trip had been planned. And so the guys I was gonna go with went on ahead. They drove up. I never flown up there before, but I was determined to go. So I got out of my flu bed and got my backpack and stuff and flew, flew up there and then caught a little bus upto where they were and I didn't have any stamp.

00:47:16.950 - 00:47:31.300

And I was It was, you know, it was we were all slow. But, I mean, it was e don't think would have been hard. You know, I've been healthier, but it was really hard. But we made it, uh, and then that same my same buddies went back after that.

00:47:31.310 - 00:47:52.400

And what took 11 hours they did different time of the year was in four hours. Yeah, and this was there's different places you could start your climb from, but we started. There's a pig farm at the bottom and I think that's where we started. Was down there and there are some places on the trail where you're actually having to pull yourself up with before we got above the tree line, you know, some steep places and then in the tree line.

00:47:52.400 - 00:48:05.420

Then it's It's like cinder. When you get up there, you know, you walk one step forward and slide back to, you know, uh and then eventually you get to the top. It's really kind of neat. And now I have since drove driven up the other side from Boquete.

00:48:05.430 - 00:48:21.040

You can. There's a road you can drive up. It took, it was longer. It was kind of fun going up, you know, on day and time kind of fluid. But going down, it seemed like it took us a few hours to drive down that thing. It was and it was really, you know, like that.

00:48:21.050 - 00:48:37.840

So but a lot of fun need area. Beautiful place used to be really beautiful for burning and things like that. It d forces. It's so much now because that's a huge agricultural area, Panama. But it za beautiful place, pretty smart of the country. Gary In is the most interesting part of the country.

00:48:37.870 - 00:48:58.180

Cherokee is a pretty a second, but well, it sounds like you got pretty far to the actual zone itself and went all over the entire country. Yeah, I know. A lot of people kind of stuck to the zone. Um, what was it like interacting with people outside?

00:48:58.190 - 00:49:28.060

It was great. Yeah. I always said that the people up and down the country were super. They do anything even as times progress and things got a bit more tense was never political out there. Yeah, I know. I never encountered any political out there. I think the biggest adverse impact over time was the way the drugs infiltrated from Colombia and the last town and the dairy and down there that where the road ends is town called you a visa and you could see the drug culture had taken.

00:49:28.060 - 00:49:41.340

It was a little poor town. There's not much going on there, but it became a little dangerous, You know, they want McGee or whatever else down there and that that was you know, that you had to watch out for that. But otherwise you felt pretty safe.

00:49:41.350 - 00:49:59.730

Yeah. Matter of fact, we never carried weapons or anything. I mean, when I went in there and a couple of big trips down there. I did carry a gun, but for the most part, I never carried anything like that. Matter of fact, I never carried a spare tire on my on my 82 g e had big tires on it on Di didn't have.

00:49:59.730 - 00:50:17.600

Really. I didn't really have anything that would hold those tires Well, and rather than I was always gonna have one made or make it, you know, I never did. So I would just carry those those, you know, plug kits that you could, you know, put an entire And then I had a little air compressor take forever to pump up on his tires.

00:50:17.610 - 00:50:31.870

Better than walking U s. So I could carry little compression. I took those plug kids, but thank God never needed it all those years off, right? I never had a word with the military. I can remember when my little military view, you know, much smaller tires.

00:50:31.870 - 00:50:44.400

I put a stick through it one time about that big around down in dairy, and I mean, it's just e. I had other times where I had flashed on that, but on the other one. I never did. I was very lucky. Very, very lucky. I wouldn't do that again.

00:50:45.220 - 00:51:05.440

Too far away. Toe not have a spare. Spare is really a pain to carry a huge 30 time. I had 35 inch wheels 12 inches wide and even changing a tire out on the soft ground, I'd be really difficult. It can be. Yeah. You need something, Thio, Hold your jack on.

00:51:05.440 - 00:51:18.020

I remember I was with a friend of mine. Had a four wheel drive truck. When we were down on the trip one time, he got a flat and it was in an area where we had a really, really trouble trying to find some hard enough. Thio Put your Jack on that.

00:51:18.020 - 00:51:38.760

If I fell off a one time e. Well, can you tell us about your experiences if you have any with the riots or, you know, I wasn't there in 64. I was I was in school. Uh, so I didn't have anything to do with that. I remember.

00:51:38.770 - 00:52:05.790

Remember the earlier one? Uh, when was the earlier one? It's it's actually in your paper or someplace In their one in 50 convenient, uh, fifties. I don't like 50. 59. Yeah, I vaguely remember that. I remember a little bit about that. But, you know, when I was a kid growing up in New Cristobal, any time anything happened, way ran to it, you know?

00:52:05.800 - 00:52:22.740

I mean, it was just e guest's when you live in a town where there's not much going on when something happens, you go, you know, on. And if you heard a police siren or something, you know, you ran and the Newcastle is perfectly flat. No hills, you know, And you could run from one is about a square mile.

00:52:22.740 - 00:52:39.740

You could run from one end to the other on if you hurt. And back in those days, Colon used to have this, uh, fire alarm. I guess it waas And it was a big steam thing, and it made a noise that I think you could hear if you're out at sea, you know, huge noise.

00:52:39.750 - 00:52:57.850

Uh, I can't remember even quite house. Sound bigger, Trump thing like that Didn't matter where you were. You you started running because you don't know where it was. There's something to see. But for some reason, in the 59 thing I didn't And I don't remember what I was doing or why I didn't.

00:52:57.860 - 00:53:13.080

And I do remember the shooting down here by what used to be our commissary and down in the front street area. They call it, but I don't. For some reason, I didn't run to that one. Maybe maybe by then I was finished with that. I don't know.

00:53:13.090 - 00:53:32.260

On 64 Like I said, I wasn't there. I read about it. That was about it. And then just cause and the operation just cause I live in court, I lived on the side of the of the hill there, and Con Hill and the trace around here going over, you could see that that was on in the middle of the night.

00:53:32.260 - 00:53:46.540

We had somebody rap on the door or fooling with the door. Uh, and that was when the invasion was full blown and there was that there were supposedly there was a a group of kind of any military in the area. And what I try to get our house or not?

00:53:46.540 - 00:54:02.990

We'll never know, but I mean, I was locked and loaded and ready for him, but nobody nobody got through and by that point they had really put steel doors and frames in the house. And they put the pins, you know, the so you can't private door off.

00:54:03.000 - 00:54:19.580

Uh, they had done a lot thio to make sure the houses were pretty secure because theft was up on bond on things like that. So it really came in handy during the invasion because we were you were pretty secure in your house at the time. But remember, out on the street with a buddy of mine who is a lawyer?

00:54:19.590 - 00:54:36.220

Uh, right next, right up the hill from May. And he was on his bicycle riding all over. I mean, they're shooting going on all over the place, and he's on you to get a better look. He's doing what I did as a kid. Uh, but it was It was It was loud on.

00:54:36.230 - 00:54:50.050

Like I say that you could see the trace around singing, you know, past way had a good view up on the hill where we were, it was around the other side of the hills where all the action was, but there was enough even on our side, because the police station was really down.

00:54:50.050 - 00:55:08.640

There's a strip of jungle blows and over ways. But there were police station was Aaron Net. US Army took that out. So there was there was a lot. It was an interesting time. It really waas Were you expecting anything at that time happen? I was while I was hoping that should have happened a long time before.

00:55:08.650 - 00:55:23.890

There's a matter of fact, I would hold that against Ronald Reagan. Hey, imposed the sanctions on the country. And but he didn't He didn't do anything else and it was crippling. I mean, the guys that was trying to hurt never get hurting sanctions, you know, they've got money.

00:55:23.900 - 00:55:43.990

The rich guys have money. That's all there is to it. It's the poor folks that are really hurt by by sanctions. And the Noriega thing should have ended way before e. He should have been taken out way before. Uh, it took him forever. And then George Bush senior came in, and he is the one that did it.

00:55:44.000 - 00:56:02.230

Uh, Reagan didn't do it. I was really disappointed about that, but it relations were bad. I mean, I mean a to that point being an American and Panama was not. I mean, you pretty much had to stay in that pretty much in the zone area because the Guardia would, you know, they take advantage if they caught you someplace.

00:56:02.240 - 00:56:19.190

They you know, they give you a hard time, and I didn't count it. A little bit of that, uh, out there we were on a G trip one day, and we got arrested. Brought in. Yeah, that's a long story, but it was it wasn't fun, but it ended.

00:56:19.200 - 00:56:34.850

You know, it happened at three o'clock in the afternoon, and we didn't get out of there about one o'clock in the morning. They brought us all the way back in and and they at what? The crux of it was that some hotshot lieutenant in the corps of engineers arrested us out there.

00:56:34.860 - 00:56:54.180

The whole story there because he arrested us, but he couldn't get us in because his four wheel drive vehicle couldn't get back. So he arrested me in my jeep, which could get back. So he abandoned his vehicle and got in mind, you know, with their guardia guys and guns and stuff, and took us back there Station and Joe Data.

00:56:54.180 - 00:57:10.560

I think it was and then photographed us and did everything and and it took us in tow. What used to be when I was in the Army US Army headquarters, where I work, they took us there, and that was their place. Okay, on the problem was I had, you know, like I say, fairly high level job with the canal.

00:57:10.570 - 00:57:25.590

And I was one of the ones that had the diplomatic immunity. And so when you ask for your that is your license, you know, they call it a carnation. So I gave it to him, and, uh, they're supposed to respect it and let you go. At that point, they're not supposed to be able to arrest you or anybody did.

00:57:25.600 - 00:57:43.500

Uh, paper doesn't count for much sometime. But the problem was when they got in the liaison guy from the canal, they did call liaison guy. He came over and he explained to us. He says their problem is, you know, this guy that arrested you had no business doing it, and they don't know how to get out of this now.

00:57:43.510 - 00:58:13.340

So they were trying to extricate themselves. Meanwhile, were sitting there, you know, waiting for hours and uh, So anyway, that was that was finally resolved. And, uh, it's one of the things that again, it shouldn't happen. And I think is a matter of course. You know, a protest has made government to government over that because you're not respecting the protocol, the diplomatic protocol, But another time, that again, you probably had a lot of this stuff out, but a buddy of mine got arrested.

00:58:13.340 - 00:58:27.540

One time we got thrown in the clink. We were over fishing on the Atlantic side, and I grew up together fishing over there. This'll was probably 6 68 ish because we were both in the arm. We were both. We got drafted together, as a matter of fact.

00:58:27.620 - 00:58:41.980

And I told you how I got back there and what he did, is he? This guy was a very good hunter and shooter, and I, you know, I had qualified expert on the guns and stuff, but, you know, I was okay, but I wasn't great shot things.

00:58:41.980 - 00:58:54.610

Guy was a great shot and he broke the post records of basic training. I mean, the whole post record, not the company record, or but I and the whole thing you know. And so we got a hot war going in Vietnam. Where does he get a sign?

00:58:54.620 - 00:59:16.970

Kobe Beach as a lifeguard? Because he's been a lifeguard somehow. Or another lifeguard slot came up, so he gets to sign back. There is a lifeguard. So anyway, way we're on the Atlantic side way were both stationed on the Pacific side. I was an amateur. He was a Kobe, And, uh, so we had an opportunity weekend to go over there, and we're just gonna go over fish for the day.

00:59:16.970 - 00:59:31.910

And fish weren't biting. So we went, started drinking beer and drank way too many beers. And while we were in there drinking beer, uh, they stole our fishing poles out of his car. They didn't take the tackle box or anything, but they took the fishing pole.

00:59:31.920 - 00:59:49.540

So, you know, we came out of those things, you know, fishable. Not just something you used or your place these air like members of your family and your pretty special things. So we were upset about that, but, you know, we drank way too much, and and I actually climbed in the back, went to sleep while Jack drove out that was not good.

00:59:49.540 - 01:00:07.140

I let you drive. So we got all the way back across 68 for sure, because it was the revolution had was ongoing when areas was overthrown, I think was October. And, uh, so that we got pulled off the road just as you're coming across transition highway.

01:00:07.140 - 01:00:21.050

Go back into canals on again. And they stopped us and, Jack, you guys woke me up. And so we go back and searching the car and open the trunk. Well, when you're in the military required to carry your alert here, they call it, which is your uniforms.

01:00:21.050 - 01:00:38.560

So you have you have cameras and stuff in there. And then Jack had this but line pistol 22 pistols, which you know, and they were trying to trump up thing that there were us infiltrators that had come in through that area, you know, and and and And then they were just, you know, a typical kind of thing.

01:00:38.570 - 01:00:55.050

Anyway, they took us off to jail, and, uh, we were there for quite a while, and then they released us to come back. They gotta layers on military leaders on this case, uh, on, but we had to be back there at eight. In the morning or something like that.

01:00:55.060 - 01:01:11.530

So we get home three in the morning or something like that, get an hour to sleep and go back down. And then they they didn't put us in jail at night. They held us out kind of waiting area. And then the next day, after we saw the judge, they send us to jail way had to go to jail for a while.

01:01:11.510 - 01:01:28.280

But we were in there for about a day. 24 hours. I wanna say way spent one night there on, uh, wasn't fun. And we were in There were a whole bunch of political prisoners in their time because the revolution. So you had you had the just the really scruffy folks off the street that you were common criminals.

01:01:28.290 - 01:01:48.520

But you also had folks that were in there for political reasons because they're on the wrong side of the revolution. And eventually, about midnight at night we were there. They took us out of that cell with everybody else. I mean, these places air despicably dirty e don't wanna be in jail on they put us in a cell by ourselves for some reason.

01:01:48.530 - 01:02:11.550

Uh, and the liaison guy spent the the I think Tony host was ran the country back. Hey, was they had not yet had he had not emerges. Leader of the revolution at the time. Okay, uh, so So they really didn't have the leaders, but we were down in there.

01:02:11.560 - 01:02:30.420

Kommandant say they call out their military headquarters there police headquarters and the layers on guy drinks scotch with Tory host the whole night way were told and negotiated our release and even shamed him into giving the gun back because they weren't gonna give the gun back.

01:02:30.430 - 01:02:47.180

And so the militarily is I got a civilian for the military, Did an outstanding job, got us out of there in 24 hours, more or less. And then they because of the methods that he used the military was gonna court martial him are? Yeah, I guess he was.

01:02:47.180 - 01:03:00.990

He was He was for civilian dress, but But I think he was in the military, and I guess they had their their, you know, ethics. You know, I'm a full believer in ethics, but when you when you're dealing with scoundrels, you know, you got to use a little different tactics.

01:03:00.990 - 01:03:18.210

And he did what worked on you should have been given a medal. Instead, they wanted to either busting or firing. I can't remember which. But my headquarters office went to bat for him. And, uh and so, you know, I think that reassigned to get something else, but he had That whole story is a real story.

01:03:18.220 - 01:03:33.660

Uh, and it was not fun, I could tell you that, but it was. And and then is it emerged. Uh, Gaudio's was the was the was the commander of the military at the time, and he emerged as president of the country. Out of that, there was a triumphant they had for a little while.

01:03:33.660 - 01:03:53.440

Identity emerged. Aziz being the sole guy they had there. You know, when you have a coup like that, you always have a struggle for power and somebody emerges and he's in London emerged. Uh, it was ironic that, uh, the future head of the country, the future dictator, was the guy that they had to negotiate with.

01:03:53.450 - 01:04:16.570

Get us out. Yeah, way there yet or not. I'll answer any questions. Try to if you guys have any question. Well, What was it like raising your family there? It was great. It really waas? Yeah, my wife. Super gal. You know, I think she's a fantastic job raising those kids.

01:04:16.570 - 01:04:33.090

I think my kids are great kids. They both have. Kids were here. My daughter is a vet down in Miami. She has around clinic down there and she has twins that air seven. I think my son is a lawyer and he's up in Tallahassee where I am, and he has a girl, seven and a boy.

01:04:33.100 - 01:04:49.580

Five on, uh, my wife is here, too. So we've been a great opportunity, really Thio to be together here because when you're Miami's an eight hour drive, that's a lot longer. Most people think that takes a while to get their way go, but not real often.

01:04:49.590 - 01:05:13.720

You know, occasionally she flies up of her kids, but it was a good opportunity, and I don't need to go into this now. Here's another long story, but one of the best adventures I had down to Dairy and the British had an expedition that went through called Operation Drake, where they were following Drake's circumnavigation of the world and I had an opportunity to go down with them, and that was about, I don't know.

01:05:13.720 - 01:05:34.580

It was 12 day trip or 14 day trip, but it was almost all the way to Colombia to dairy and and involved driving for a day, spending the night down there with the Guardia and their compound. And then now you got on the river, you know, the Chicago River and went down and it flows the tweet, a river flows into it, and it all flows out to the Pacific in it.

01:05:34.590 - 01:06:05.540

But we spent We spent probably 12 hours on the river. Remember, we had to stop at one point and do some negotiating for some provisions and stuff. And this was this was a This was an unauthorized side trip by the by the British guy that was leading the expedition because he had been through when they did the TransAmerican trip in 1972 the British went from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego, and they were the first vehicles to go through the Darien Gap.

01:06:05.610 - 01:06:20.730

They didn't drive all the way. They had to float him in different areas, and there's a huge swamp down in Colombia. They had to float across that, but, uh, they it was a very tough, you know, took him. It took him 3 to 4 months just to get through the gap in Panama.

01:06:20.740 - 01:06:38.060

Just it was it was that, you know, you basically had toe chopped down trees and wintered, although it build rafts and all kinds of things. So it really is a trip in. The expedition leader always wanted to go to this old goldmine down there near the Colombian border that Drake sacked which way down in the jungle.

01:06:38.070 - 01:07:01.290

And to get there while on this on this Operation Drake, which is a circumnavigation trip. Their boat was which almost tall mass boats. You know, it's called Eye of the Wind needed a lot of repairs in Panama. So while the canal Organization, I work for Transportation Terminals Bureau that we operated reports and the boat was there getting fixed by the canal lent a lot of support.

01:07:01.300 - 01:07:22.010

Trade school built a lot of things for the boat all kinds of, but it took some time. So my buddy, who was running the port operations time, learned that that the expedition leader wanted to goto do a trip in the dairy and and he knew I had a four wheel drive truck and achievement, and they didn't have the government support for that because it was really an unauthorized trip.

01:07:22.020 - 01:07:35.410

But anyway, we negotiated a deal. I got to go with him. And so, like I say, we drove a day. We spent a day, 12 hours on the river. Then you walk for three days to get to this place, and it's like I say, it's very, very close to Colombia.

01:07:35.420 - 01:07:52.470

And that was that was a really eventful trip in beautiful area and you're down in, you know, pretty Christine country down there. Not not a lot of that left, either. But that was a 1979. That was a good trip. When did your Children leave the zone?

01:07:54.080 - 01:08:24.840

They left E think my son went toe the junior college for a year are part of a year or something like that. Then he went to University of Texas. Yeah, and really, except for visiting, you know, I never went back. My daughter followed him two years, I think, and she went Thio Colorado State University first because I had a bet program there and then later transferred University of Georgia, where she she had pre vet in Colorado on a vet school in Georgia.

01:08:24.850 - 01:08:42.370

And she she, That's never except for visiting. Never been back, either. Yeah, but they have a real attachment to it as their generation has a real attachment to the place. E mean, a lot of folks have a sentimental attachment. I think I was there for over 50 years, you know, It was a little long, and there's a lot of things I'd like to.

01:08:42.370 - 01:08:56.770

I'd like to go back and do some of the same things again. You know, it was something to do, but I I don't have to. I sense in this younger generation, they didn't get enough of it or something. There's a deep, deep attachment. There are a lot of them.

01:08:56.770 - 01:09:14.230

Go back and try to work and, you know, a zone American. We're gonna Panama. Never years ago, that wouldn't have flown very well. I think it za little more cosmopolitan. Better chance of that working today, but it's still I can't imagine. I mean, unless you really got a skill that's in demand or something.

01:09:14.230 - 01:09:29.620

I can't imagine that working out really well. I know too many stories where Americans started businesses. And the next thing you know, they're leaning on because of corruption, you know? And then they want, you know, they're trying to squeeze you out or get a part, a piece of the action or something that one way or another.

01:09:29.630 - 01:09:49.830

You know, those things never never worked very well that I know. Uh, eso I'm a skeptic about that kind of stuff. Do you think your family took away any Panamanian culture with you guys? And you can I don't see how you cannot. You know, e Think it's in your blood after you've spent a lifetime down there.

01:09:49.840 - 01:10:03.150

You know, I always have a fondness for me. You know, Julian, Good Panamanian friends. Uh, matter of fact, if I ever get my Jeep back down, I'll probably leave it with one, you know, And then if I would go back after that, it will be there.

01:10:03.150 - 01:10:14.540

But he's one of the guys that showed me how to build jeeps. You know, Panama in front of mine. Uh, anyway, a lot of good people, there really are a lot of good people. What I really like about that means there are fun people. You know?

01:10:14.550 - 01:10:36.110

They're not. They say Colombians or even Nicaraguans. They'll say, You know, there's a huge difference. Lumber serious, you know, kind of in your fun loving people. Yeah. Good people. Yeah. No complaint. Do you gonna need more questions? I don't think so. Printers covered everything. Yeah, I'm nutshell.

01:10:36.110 - 01:10:56.530

It's just a sketch, but yeah, E Can't you know I didn't even try toe compose anything for this? I could have, I suppose, But it was really short notice. I only heard from Joe about a week ago or something. I scanned it. I don't have a lot to say about some of this stuff, but we'll give it a go and see how.

01:10:56.540 - 01:10:58.680

Thank you so much.