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This is Candace Ellis on July 1st 2010, interviewing Welcome Stone or oppose it. And I'm a retired Panama Canal pilot and my family built the Panama Canal and interview eso. Let's begin, I guess there at the beginning with your family and how they came to the Panama Canal Zone area and how well, my great grandfather, Edward J.

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Nevil, was a railroad engineer up in Ohio, and I don't know what attracted him to the Canal Zone, but he went down there in uhh 1908 And I have a letter in here, which I was afraid to read that he wrote on the ship going down.

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He wrote a truce family on telling them many times and whatnot, and he had a very interesting life down Panama. Aside from being a railroad engineer, he owned the place up inch Oreta and kind of I don't know what they call him, whether it was a farm or what not really tried to grow vegetables.

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And he ran into a lot of problems from the Panamanian people in this Herrera area. And I also happen to have a NA article from a newspaper that he wrote on article for the newspaper back in those days, and I don't have the date for the newspaper, but it's self explanatory.

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Onda, uh, he loved it and I've got pictures of him. I have family pictures of my family visiting the canal during construction days and pictures of my grandmother standing in the locks while they were being built and whatnot. On your free to see these in these, you want todo uh, leading over a wall and looking down into an empty chamber gives me the fright, but you had a good pipe to hang on to while doing that and what not?

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And, uh, I'm proud of the family for having built the canal. And we've had five generations of my family work on the canal, which includes our daughter, who spent two summers while she was in college, down in Panama, and she took summer jobs down there with the Panama Canal Company.

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So she is 1/5 generation employee of the Panama Canal. So let's see. And you were born there. No, I was born in California, Okay, but my mother was born in panel in the canal zone. My younger brother was born in the canal zone and our two kids were born in the canal zone.

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And, uh, but, um, when did you move from California? E was just one years old young. There was a family divorce back in the early twenties or late 18 that caused my grandmother and my mother, who was then just a 10 year old girl, Uh, 58 I don't know how old she was to leave Panama, and they went to California on That's where she married and that's where I was born.

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So what was it like growing up there? Obviously moved there when you were really young. So your entire life I have you I could remember most of it right at the beginning of the World War World War Two, and the first house I remember living in was right across the street from a field in athletic field for part of the high school, and that had been turned into a NA army encampment with guns for different weapons for incoming flights who weren't identified.

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And I also remember that in the side of the house we were living in, they built an air raid shelter and my father at that time was a truck driver and he was hoping to bring in the sand to cover the air raid shelter. And we had them frequent, not frequent.

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But we had a test for the air raid shelter. Just practice alarms. But on one case, I do recall they had an unidentified aircraft approaching and the sirens went off and we had to go into the air raid shelters until they could get identified. Well, once they got through that it was identified as a friendly aircraft.

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We were released from the the air raid shelter. So and then, during the war, there was a divorce again. And then what? We moved to another house in New Cristobal, which was Panama, part of the canal zone. Really? Is that I don't know if you're familiar with how that set up down there, but Chris Tobel, where the crystal will high school was, was actually located in the Republic of Panama, and we had our own special policemen and fire department in there just to protect us.

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But we were surrounded by the city of Colon all the other way around, and, uh, I lived in there. And then there was the doors in the family. We moved into the canal zone, which were called old Chris Tobel. And that's where I was when the war ended.

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But when the war ended in 1945 I was just in a year old kid. So But I remember celebrating with firecrackers and everything out on the streets to celebrate the end of the world with other Children. Yeah, and I'm a 73 year old man. So 73 young man.

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Excuse me, and I can remember things like that, but yeah. Um heh. So you stayed in old crystal ball For how long After that. I think we were in Old Chris sober for two years, two years, And then my mother remarried, and then we we still lived in a place in old Christo.

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But it was a family type. Before that, we've been in a 12 apartment family building with one bedroom on my mother and three kids lived in there on my brother and I used to play with matches all the time, and it's so lucky we did not burn the house down with the magic.

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But then life went on from there and we moved to uh, Chris Tobel. And then we moved to Marguerite, and then we moved back to Chris Tobel and whatnot. E. I graduated from the Crystal Ball High School in 1955 and that's part of why I'm here right now.

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But so let's see, How would you say that these the new crystal crystal when these towns are different from the other ones in the Panama Canal? But how would you say that these towns, the new crystal will no crystal ball are different from the other towns in the Panama Canal Zone?

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Well, because he did mention a new crystal will, you were surrounded. Chris Noble is not in the canal zone in that sense of the word, because the city of Colon on although it was in the Canal Zone area, which was a 10 mile wide strip on each side of the canal.

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But actually the ports of colon and the ports of Balboa were under Panamanian jurisdiction, especially colon. But on the waterfront E. I could show you a picture in here. That, too, because they're all pictures I have where we were and what not. And we were right on the waterfront in Colon harbor on.

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It was beautiful place, but we were surrounded by colon and to win the canals only either had to walk or drive through Colon to get there, and I didn't mind it. And we're not those days, the Panamanian people, we kind of challenge each other walking down the street.

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Never had any fights or anything like that and whatnot. There's no further attention. No, no eso those those days they were good people and whatnot, but it was a very colon was a very, very poor town. And many of the people who lived in Colon were from the West Indian islands, and they come to Panama, work to help build a canal.

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And then these people lived in colon would dependence of the people who come in to construct the canal. But they didn't have jobs, many of them on. The unemployment rate was very, very high, and on top of that, the town of Colon was at one time a marshland, and it was sold in by Dirk from building the Panama Railroad in 18 50 to 55 and they dumped it all out there, and then they both the town side, up, out there, although there was colon was there even then, I believe.

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But I remember one day being on a street in Colon, just off the limits from the town of New Crystal Ball, and it was a hole in the road about that big. It was a concrete street, and I looked down through the hole and right at the surface of the holes water.

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And I think that marshland. I think a lot of that dirt, but not from the canal was sinking and on. And it's a very decrepit city. In many ways, the city of Panama on the Pacific side has a beautiful big high rises and everything. The city of colon, on the Atlantic side of the Atlantic entrance of Panama Canal, is a very decrepit city, and at one time they put military guards on there, and they told tourists or people from the canal zone, you can go into the first two square blocks of colon and there was some reasonably good stores in there, and there will be military policeman to protect you Panamanian military.

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But if you leave that area, we cannot guarantee your safety. And so that was for tourists. What about the people, like your family who lived there. Did you ever feel threatened? Um, just living there. No, no, no, no. I never felt threatened by those people that were good people.

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And we use many of the people Many of the black women were maids in our house is because we could get him for almost nothing. And even for what we paid him was made. They were making much more money. They could make working in colon if they could even find a job in Colon.

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What was your schooling experience like? And there I went. I went to first through the sixth grade in the new Cristobal and Margarita. I would, because of change locations and whatnot. But then in 1949 my father quit working on the Panama Canal and we went to California, and we were gone about three years, 2.5 years, and my dad couldn't wait to get back in the canal zone and go back to work down there on Well, I love the canal zone.

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I was very happy to work down there myself and lived down there. It was a great place to grow up and When I was a younger kid, I spent a lot of time at the Washington Hotel swimming Pool, and it was a saltwater pool that was right on the edge of the bay.

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There was a concrete wall that separated the swimming pool from the Colon Bay, and during the dry season, when the wind was blowing the seas, coming in with salt water would hit the wall and splash and would come into the the swimming pool. Way used to love that, that that was great.

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But unfortunately, in those days no one ever told me about the threats of skin cancers and whatnot. And I spent so much time in new Crist over just wearing a bathing suit or shorts that I've had a lot of skin cancers on me from lack of any information being put out in those days about the threat of skin cancers and whatnot.

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Now I have keratosis and I've it skin cancers removed, and I see a skin doctor every six months, at least sometimes four months to pay for my way of living down there. Do you think a lot of people are paying the same way? Probably a lot of them of the older generation because since then they've come up with these pf's and whatnot.

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I think, yeah, people are using those more. And I've got a son who's got a son or with my grandson and his great light skin. And my son learned to keep him in a T shirt sleeve T shirt all the time. When he's even though he's got a bathing seats, he's got a protection shirt on.

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So let's see. Um, So when you guys left in 1949 for California for two years, was the transition difficult? I know you mentioned your father. All he wanted to do was come back. And I'm assuming that you guys eventually obviously did return to the zone. What was it like returning to the States for that brief period of time where he went up to We wound up in Hanford, California on.

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Then he went down to Santa Ana and we lived in a Mexican orange picking town called El Modine O on the I went to 7th and 8th grade there, I believe on board. Uh huh. It was being it was good living with their we lived on.

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We actually rented a home on an orange ranch 10 acre orange wrench, and we had nothing to do with the oranges. But I would go out with a guy wounded and right on his tractor when he was going through there and furrowing the ground and whatnot, and we enjoyed it, but he just could not get a good job.

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My father just could not get a good job. And he went up going back on the Panama Canal and you returned and began ninth grade. They're correct. It was April. I think it was April when we went back and I was that far in the ninth grade.

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Okay? And then I went 10th, 11th and 12th grade in the canal zone. Mm hmm. And I had a very interesting experience because summer had just started. And I was playing basketball in the gymnasium when I got a telephone call from my father and he said, You've got to go to the office and get a passport and everything.

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You're going to go to work on a ship as a seaman and whatnot. Well, it was a technical oil tanker that, in fact, with the motor vessel Cristobal, of all names on. Uh, I went to work on that as a seaman. I was just in between 10th and 11th grades of summer between, and I learned to be a seem, and I worked on that ship for 2.5 months, and I loved it on, and, uh, I made good money.

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And I had a man who I was burning within the same cabin. And he was a union man for the steamship company. Or for the semen. And he made sure I got paid all my overtime and everything because I didn't know how to keep those records on.

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He helped me keep him, and I think and so that would be a 19 53. I came off that ship with about $1000 in cash. Can you imagine what $1000 in cash was back in 1953 And I bought a Vespa V E S p A motor scooter.

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Brand new, and it was ordered and brought into town. It was ordered through Sears. I think it was called in all state, but it was still a Vespa. Do you remember how much it cost? No, I don't remember. 8 $900. Something like that. I I have that would that would be guessing, But it was something like that.

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So I had a good time on it. Yeah. You must have been the talk of the town of brand new Vespa. Oh, yeah. You take girls out on it? Yes. I had an incident there With that is that I left in part, Not where I usually park into the high school by the cafeteria.

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But I was running late and there were a bunch of motorcycles, big and little ones that parked out front there. But on the city streets of Crystal Ball and one of the guys and I know his name, and I know who did it. But he ripped the cables off of my throttle control on break control and always had problems after that.

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And I frequently had to go in and have it replaced and whatnot. E I know who did it, but I don't know if it was jealous of the motor scooter or what, or whether he just didn't like it parked out there, But he just reached down ripping.

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Oh, my God. So horrible. So did you. Did you ever get back out on a ship as a seaman. After the following year, I went out on a small ship. It was British flag and it was a fruit carrier with the captain was from the Bahamas Islands.

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And the name of the ship was the Jacks Bay on. We carried fruit from Colombia or Ecuador to the United States, either going into Miami or into Galveston, Texas. Okay. And let the food on. There was terrible e so e mean Sunday when you're supposed to get good food.

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I remember I had a piece of chicken in my hand on Sunday. They fried chicken. Oh, boy. We're getting really good today. I was trying to break that thing in the house. I could eat it, and it slipped out of my hands and threw across the room and whatnot.

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So I made two trips on that one Ecuador and one to Colombia. And when they got back from those trips and I had to clean out help clean out that cargo hatches of all the dead and next banana skins and everything after we offloaded and going home, and I went up until the Captain Captain, When we go through the Panama Canal.

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I'm getting off the ship and we got paid $10 for cleaning. The hatch is not over time. Just a flat $10 if you clean the hatch. You and he said, Well, he says I'm not gonna pay you your $10 for cleaning the hatch. I'll just pay you what pay you.

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And I said, yeah, that's fine. I want to get off the ship s. So when I went through the canal, I got off. And But then I went to the United States Merchant Marine Academy at Kings Point and I graduated from there, and I spent some time in the Navy.

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Short time because of the merchant Marine Man Officer. I was not required to stand the Navy. If I could prove I was gonna sail on a merchant ship, which is what my training was. And I did go back and sail merchant ships and I sailed for 2.5 years.

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Then my mother passed away in the canal zone and I went down to the canal zone, returned to the canal zone, I should say, and wound up going to work down there as first as a boarding officer. Um, And while I was working as a boarding officer, I knew people down there who ran the tugboats and I would ride tugboats with him to get tugboat training.

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And what? Not even though I already had a merchant marine training for ocean things and whatnot and that qualified me to become a Panama Canal. Togo Captain and I finally got my Panama Canal towboat captain license. And I went toe work on the small tugboats with the dredging division.

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And they were difficult things. Toe handle. They were good, but for towing barges or anything, they were difficult to handle. And what years were these? That would be in 1964. I've started working there. And then in 1965 I got promoted to the big tugs, ship handling tugs and whatnot.

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And although we were dredging division and technically we were working for dredging division will handle the dredging muds that were taken up by the dredges and what we spent more time working on the ships on. I mean, we would take ships through the Panama Canal through the cut to Peter Michael locks, a case that we have to take our tugboats to the Atlantic Side to the lake end of get tuned locks and work ships there into the locks and whatnot that needed tug assistance.

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And I love that job. But I kept asking to be a Panama Canal pilot because I had a second mace license. I had see time. I had tugboat time working in the canal and they said, No. If you want to become a Panama Canal pilot, you go back to see and you get your master's license.

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And finally, in 1969 we went toe a dinner and some of the pilots who were there. That's where the Kings point dinner. Not a other lot of Kings pointers were pilots, and they set up while our top pay right now is $18,000. And I think I was making 12,000 on the Tugs.

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Remember, this was in the late 19 sixties, and we lived 30 minutes away from the officers Club where that party was held, and on the way home, I said, My wife I said, Jean, I'm gonna quit working on the Panama Canal. I'm going back to see and I said, I'm gonna go back and get in enough time to get my master's license, which we did do.

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And I took my wife and kids up into Delaware where her mom and dad were, and she said, We got an apartment up there and she stayed there and I went back to see and I did ultimately get a master's license. I sailed Chief made for a whole year on the same ship, and when I had that year and I was qualified to sit from Master's license and then they summer August of 1969 I think I got my master's license the same as the captain's license.

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But Master is the proper word port, and later in that year, I was accepted as a Panama Canal pilot with a master's license. And there happens to be an ugly part of that is that I lost 2.5 years of government service so I could go back to see and get my captain's license, and I went back in 1971 late, 1971 is a pilot in the 1976 if you could paddle a canoe or a row, a rowboat practically, and we're Panama.

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Anya, you could qualify as a Panama Canal. Pala and Boy, I was angry about that because I lost 2.5 years of government service. Good it that way. Uh, so I would not take any part in training people who were not qualified as masters of ships because the training for Panama Canal pilots was putting the trainees, the board, the ship with pilot, and then the pilot had the discretion of letting them handle the ship or talking to them training.

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But I reached the point where if you weren't a qualified a master, I wasn't going to train you to be a pilot because I wasn't good enough to be one. Andi, I had guys practically spin on me because I wouldn't train them. But I said, Well, you just gotta understand something.

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And I would tell them when they came aboard, I tell him I said, You have a master's license? No. And I said, Well, then I will not let you handle the ship. And I said, if you have any questions to ask me and ask me and I'll give you an answer, but I'm not going to spend time training you to be a Panama Canal pilot, and I told him why.

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And many of them understood that somewhere Americans there were some were Panamanian. And, uh, Americans understood Mitt a little better than the Panamanian. They wanted that canal. Them what not eso went on that way. And then I retired is the Panama Canal Pilot in 1992 because of medical problems and a dislike for the Panama Canal.

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Unfortunately, at that time, there was some things happening in the canal that weren't making me happy. And Jimmy Carter had signed the Panama Canal giving the Panama Canal Panama on Do something. I like to make sure everyone understands we did not give the Panama Canal back to Panama.

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We gave our Panama Canal to Panama. Panama had never had a Panama Canal. We built the Panama Canal after the French abandoned attempts to build it, and we took it from the French. We spent two years with General Gorgas Dr Gorgas, clearing the mosquitoes and everything out from 1904 1906 and when the mosquitoes were cleaned out and that was done by filling in all the water places.

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And there's actually evidence that in the hospitals. I think the Gorgas and Khan Hospital. I guess it was called at that time. Maybe Gorgas. I don't remember the beds. People were getting sick and the people in the hospital said, Well, let's do this. Let's put the legs of the beds in tins of water and that will keep all these insects from crawling up into the bed because they can't swim.

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Were those tins of water what we're breeding? The mosquitoes that were attacking the people and whatnot. So they got that out and whatnot. But by that time, the canal was fairly well cleaned up, and they went back to working on the canal on my family went down that hell building.

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So So when you retired in 1992 u left his own. I left his own. And what did you retire? Teoh. I retired to North Carolina, North Carolina. Many people who retired from the Panama Canal came right here to Florida because there was a similarity in the weather's not, they're not exactly the same.

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One is tropical on the others Florida. But there there there's a similarity between, But my wife and I spent 32 or three weeks in 1982 or three somewhere around there looking in Florida to see if any place that we wanted Thio, look for home. We were looking for regions of Florida at that time where we might wanna live in Florida.

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And that's when we decided the region we wanted living with the mountains of North Carolina. And that was also because of the sun in this sandy beaches. I don't like I don't like beaches. I don't like sandy shorelines on. I don't like Palm Trail. Well, I use a Palm Korea's a representation of sandy beaches, but so we went to the mountains of North Carolina, and we absolutely love it up there.

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No part of North Carolina Hendersonville outside of Asheville, near Asheville. Okay. Do you know Waynesville? Yeah. All right. That's me. I goto Waynesville every summer. I'm familiar there. You understand your feelings towards it, and everything is incredible up there. Let's meet that you're from up there any.

00:28:12.520 - 00:28:34.670

Wherever the temperature is on the East coast are 90 degrees in the mountains there, 85. Love it. Love it. Yeah, you know? Yeah, Our winters are mild. Get heavy snows. I mean, we get snow and whatnot occasionally, but not very seldom, Uh, reduces your traveling whatnot.

00:28:34.680 - 00:28:57.830

Yeah. We'll definitely gorgeous up there. Yeah, so? So that's great. Um, well, let's see. So I guess I've talked to a lot of people who the transition from the canal zone to the States is very difficult, but it sounds like it was something that you welcomed and enjoyed.

00:28:57.840 - 00:29:17.010

Yeah. And you think it was just for I guess there were probably, You know, the the issue with Carter and giving up the canal and such had kind of put a sour taste in your mouth. It did. But, you know, nowadays, uh, I'm well aware of how Panama's running the canal.

00:29:17.010 - 00:29:34.650

They're doing a good job. There are still Americans working in Panama Canal pilots. In fact, the senior Panama Canal Pilot. Right now, number one is a man who was behind me at the Merchant Marine Academy. And I still have several other friends who are still working as pilots down there.

00:29:34.660 - 00:29:55.550

Even only they're working under Panamanian and all this stuff about red shining and whatnot. An article appeared in our Times news newspaper here, written by a lady, and she said that the Chinese red Chinese were running the Panama Canal and watch not whatnot and watch out.

00:29:55.940 - 00:30:16.260

And I wrote a letter back to the editor and I told him the Panama Canal is run by Panamanians, Onley, Panamanians and there. No Chinese involved. And I said, But what you have to do is distinguished between the ports where the cargo is handled and the Panama Canal.

00:30:16.260 - 00:30:32.940

The Panama Canal is not related to the ports. And yes, there is a worldwide conglomerate partially owned by red China that handles ports. But I think they handle them in 65 ports around the world. And they do run the ports any each end of the Panama Canal.

00:30:32.950 - 00:30:55.590

But they don't run the Panama Canal. Panama runs the Panama Canal. And I wrote a letter and Times News on local newspaper had another letter come back and they put in there that Captain Stone is a retired Panama Canal paddler. And he says all that other stuff is not true.

00:30:55.590 - 00:31:20.660

And it's not true. Eso eso Let's backtrack a little bit. Um e Look at my things back. Thio. Let's say the 19 sixties I'd like to talk, I guess a little bit about the political awareness of the area. You know, there, in 1964 there were the riots and such and stateside, they were going through the entire civil rights movement.

00:31:20.640 - 00:31:41.830

Um, in America. So what can you compare the political awareness and atmosphere of the zone to that of the state's kind of, Let me know. You know, the sentiment of the people on how aware people were in the canal zone of what was going on in the United States and how that kind of affected life in the Canal zone.

00:31:41.840 - 00:32:00.000

Well, it did not affect life in the Canal zone that much. I happen to get a long weekend off that week. I was working as a boarding officer at that time, and my work schedule was such that I finished late Friday late Thursday evening or early Friday morning.

00:32:00.010 - 00:32:30.270

And then I had the whole weekend off, and so I was not involved with it, and there was deaths and whatnot in the city of Colon. On there were military people lining the border between the Canal Zone and the city of colon area, and there were several killings there, but a friend of mine who's dad had a fishing boat, said, You wanna go fishing today and we're going to go trolling for Snook.

00:32:30.840 - 00:32:47.790

And so we went out on his boat from the Crystal Ball Yacht Club. We're still in the Canal Zone area, and we went up to the gateau, unlocks the north end of the locks where it's still salt water, and we were fishing in there trolling and whatnot, and someone came down.

00:32:47.790 - 00:33:27.390

Lock Wallen said. You get out of here, Get out of here. You don't belong in here on the boat. And Mr George Don't was the guy who was running the boat. He was the father of one of my classmates, and we kept right on fishing. And the next thing we knew, an armed Panama Canal launch with the whole squad of soldiers on it came approaching us, and they had rifles and guns pointing to us and what not and there was very young army officer on there, and he says, I want to know who you are and what you're doing on.

00:33:27.390 - 00:33:45.570

Mr George said, Well, my name is Mr George and I'm fishing Well, the guy then realized that we were no threat to the canal. I mean, I understand the reason why they were doing that and what not. And so way went on. Official, they said, Well, just be careful.

00:33:45.570 - 00:34:08.050

Where you going? On the boat left. It was kind of scary to see that armed craft come up approach. You bristling with guns? Yeah, and I don't know if that was the same time or not, but we had posted. They took a an old navy cargo vessel, small one, and they tied it up out of the breakwater entrance to the Panama Canal.

00:34:08.440 - 00:34:28.520

And I can't put the right timeframe on here, but we were manning that lifeboat along with the military. Are that cargo vessel now? It was just tied up and we were standing there. And when vessels came in, the military went out to board the vessels and protect the boarding officers.

00:34:28.520 - 00:34:57.740

And we were with him And what not? And it was interesting and whatnot. It was just a protection because they were afraid. With the troubles going on down there, vessels might Tran come in from Cuba and whatnot or other countries and enriched themselves by what was going on in panel in the troubles of 1964 and I was dating my wife at that time and way weren't married yet.

00:34:57.750 - 00:35:15.630

Uh, I remember all the circumstances on it, but I could not drive my car. I was living on the Atlantic side and she was teaching on the Pacific side, and I could not drive my car across the trans Isthmian highway because that was in Panama s.

00:35:15.640 - 00:35:32.660

So I was able to put my car, my vehicle on a train, and I sent it to the Pacific site and lifted over there. And then I would go over and see her and whatnot frequently, and I could get by an Atlantic side on my motor scooter or whatever it was.

00:35:32.660 - 00:35:56.070

I don't remember the but my car was on the Pacific side and I was on the Atlantic. Well, that didn't last all that long. It was unpleasant that 64 rats and whatnot and I think there were 21 Panamanians killed four U. S. Military. I'm not a 100% for on the four military, but I know it was 21 Panamanian.

00:35:56.640 - 00:36:16.170

Problem is Panama suffered big damage from the people in Panama burning the buildings in Panama like the Pan Am building an American. It was located in Panama, but the Panamanian set fire to it and with heavily damaged and whatnot that did not come out of the ground for anything.

00:36:16.430 - 00:36:41.520

So but I can fully understand you take a country that's got in east and west part to it. But right in the middle of it, North and the south there is the canal zone, the canal zone forever. By the way, don't ever misunderstand one thing. The Suez Canal had a 99 year lease on it with the French people.

00:36:42.130 - 00:37:06.450

The Panama Canal was forever. We never, ever had to give that canal back to Panama. We had that forever and ever and ever. But Jimmy Carter turned out, was probably right when he did what he did. How did other people feel at the time? What were your experiences observing the people during that time when he was turning the canal over to Panama?

00:37:07.730 - 00:37:32.500

Uh, how the other zoning they feel about there were a lot of hotheads, and I know I went to a meeting somewhere about it. Uh, there was a guy up front. In fact, I just met him A few minutes got here on. He was kind of running the meeting, but I think what he was was a cushion between the people and the government of the Canal Zone.

00:37:32.920 - 00:37:49.470

And finally it reached the point where people up front would just start talking. And I finally said at the end, I said, Well, excuse me, you've only been talking to people down front. You wanna listen to some of those people in the back to And he said, Yes, I will.

00:37:49.480 - 00:38:05.670

And I stood up and I said some things very calmly and very loud and very, very proper. And I got a lot of applause for saying because what? Another people down the front? We're saying we're hot spots, things that should not have been said about the situation.

00:38:05.680 - 00:38:24.150

I don't remember what it was always, but I spoke very honestly about the way I felt about it and what not. And but nothing could change it. I mean, like, I say, this guy who's here right now e recognized from that. Oh, yeah, I've known him for long, Okay?

00:38:24.160 - 00:38:46.160

He was a minister at one time down in Panama, and he knew me and he knew a Canal Zone girl when I went to high school with, but he did not know that we knew each other. So he was running the church in GATT tune, and he decided it would be nice if I we could have a dinner party here in GATT tune at the church.

00:38:46.220 - 00:39:03.210

And I could introduce Malcolm Stone, too. Carol. New Hard So but I didn't know that at the time was behind it. So when we got to the church and everything might have been their home, I don't remember. But we sat down and he said, Malcolm, he said, I want you to meet Carol Newhart.

00:39:03.220 - 00:39:25.220

I said, We go to high school together and No Carol Way didn't get married, so But I was that there wedding that later on I was the best man for the another classmate of mine from high school and the Merchant Marine Academy. We still see him and talk to him.

00:39:25.220 - 00:39:48.150

And what? Oh, um, what was it like interacting with the indigenous peoples in Panama and the Islanders who came over toe work? How was was there any kind of tension? No racial awareness? That was I had an incident happened to me when I was working on the Texaco tanker.

00:39:48.520 - 00:40:12.430

We were going through the locks bond. At that time. They used to put line handlers on the ship and they just did not go down for one set of locks. They stayed on the ship all the way through the canal. And I met one of these guys and my dad was a manager at one of the local rate commissaries run by the Panama Canal Company.

00:40:12.610 - 00:40:29.650

And remember, I can still remember to see that the guy come up to me a little black man and he says, your daddy, he treats my people really good. They pointed to a schedule. I'm very proud, but I know my dad was that way. He he did not object to the right people.

00:40:29.650 - 00:40:52.110

And he was hard on how we run the commissary to keep people from stealing. But he was honest with him and whatnot. And I can still remember that guy doing that. So, compared to the States, it seems like the zone was a very harmonious place in there wasn't a lot of the relationship between the black and whites and Panama during the construction days.

00:40:52.110 - 00:41:11.070

And during the days I worked there, there was no crime such as there is so rampant in the United States right now on I I've been with black people on my life, but I'm getting very, very disappointed of the crime rate of the immigrants to the United States.

00:41:11.080 - 00:41:32.530

And I say to myself, I said to a few other people, the destruction of the United States is going to come because of the slave trade back in the 18 hundreds way brought all those slaves in the United States, and they did not realize at that time that's where the trouble was gonna begin.

00:41:33.010 - 00:41:54.610

Onda Uhh. It scares me and whatnot. I have grandkids, and I just don't know what they're gonna live with when they're They're my oldest grandchild is eight years old, so I figure she's gonna live for a number 82 more years. So, 90. What's she gonna live within the United States?

00:41:54.620 - 00:42:19.710

I just I just don't know. I'm not gonna be here. I'm 73 eso but my old time can only tell That's Yeah. Okay. What else do you want to know? Um I mean, this is really about you. You know your story. What your childhood was like any stories that stand out in particular.

00:42:19.710 - 00:42:51.030

Funny anecdote. E was an outdoor man down there. Then those And I told you about all the time I spent swimming at this saltwater swimming pool at the Washington Hotel and, uh, also played sports in the gymnasium all the time. I mean, uh, if I could get to the gym and play basketball or volleyball or any of this some summer recreation sports, I did that And what not And I enjoyed it, but also became quite a fisherman, and I owned in my lifetime down there.

00:42:51.030 - 00:43:06.620

I owned four different boats and I did a lot of fishing both in the Atlantic Ocean, the Pacific Ocean, and in gateau on Lake, and even went up in the mad and lake, which is up above Katou in Lake. It's a reservoir for gateau in Lake.

00:43:06.630 - 00:43:33.130

And I did fishing up there, and I was looking for whatever fish I could get. And I fought a lot of tarp into my life. I fought a lot of snow, cut a lot of snuck, uh, corvina corvina I've been and I had a black marlin way, chartered a boat and went away for eight days, two days down to the fishing grounds in two days, back from four days fishing.

00:43:33.600 - 00:43:56.430

And I was with on that boat we caught a one of guys caught a big £750 black Mormon. Now the £750 was determined by measuring the length and the girth, the widest growth of the fish. And that's where they came up. How long did it take him to catch that couple hours?

00:43:56.440 - 00:44:16.610

Oh, my gosh, I can't even imagine. But then when I was on the trip, I got a black marlin on the fishing pole. It was a £50 class fishing rod and line and everything, and I thought that black marlin for an hour and eight minutes, I remember that.

00:44:16.610 - 00:44:33.300

Perfect. And I brought him right up to the stern of the boat and right off the tip of my rod. The leader was running right straight down, and the guys were trying to grab the leader so they could get the fish up to where we could put a gaffe into him and whatnot.

00:44:33.300 - 00:44:46.970

Don't hold him and whatnot, but suddenly the fish And after now, eight minutes He suddenly went and he went down a little bit and they had to let go of the leader. And then he went down a second time, and the hook slipped out of his mouth.

00:44:46.980 - 00:45:06.110

And now So, actually, I can actually say he was caught because I had the leader right up, and I released him. But he did it himself in. Wow. But he loves fishing and whatnot. But again, mhm take from my son. Damages. Yeah, but I did a lot of that and whatnot.

00:45:06.120 - 00:45:22.870

And then, uh, working on ships to the pilot, and I was exposed to the sun and whatnot. I didn't. We're enough long sleeve shirts to put in a sunscreens on and whatnot, but I love the canal zone, and I'm proud of both. My kids were born down there.

00:45:22.880 - 00:45:55.410

E retired in 1992 e went down and visited the Panama Canal by plane. Flew down in 1998 90. And then in 2008 I made a trip through the Panama Canal on a on a Norwegian cruise line ship. Everything on, uh, you know, I have to admit that are not with the Holland American line ship but which is really important.

00:45:55.410 - 00:46:16.930

But, uh, going through the Panama Canal turned out not to be exciting. It turned be ho hum because I estimate and it's a an estimate because of my time spent with the tugboats and my time on ship. I've been through the Panama Canal 3000 times on when I made it on that Holland American line trip.

00:46:16.930 - 00:46:40.350

That was 3001. But I don't know how many times because we worked the tugs up and down through the cut down through Peter Mayer locks assisted in the Miraflores lock. So I can't say how many times I've been through all or partial trances the canal. So I threw in the number 3020 years less S E.

00:46:40.360 - 00:47:07.840

I did love doing it, and I still watch. Are you familiar with on your computer? Uh huh. Search for a c. P. R. Florida, the Canal de Panama or Panama Canal Authority. Either one. And then it will go to a website where you can look at live pictures of the Panama canals.

00:47:08.150 - 00:47:31.890

Now those live pictures they're not moving pictures, but There's still pictures, but they changed every 30 seconds. Eso you see a ship in the water and it's just high above the water and then said the picture changes in the ship has dropped down another 5 ft in the water or something very interesting to watch, and I keep them Watch that all the time on.

00:47:31.890 - 00:48:02.460

Actually, my screen of my computer is a picture I managed to capture of two great big container ships going through Gatun Locks in the same direction they were South bound and their ships were on east in the West Side, and they're just perfect position. We look at that on the locks, is somewhat crowded with container ships to see that, and I keep that picture on my screen as my screen saver And what beautiful.

00:48:02.470 - 00:48:42.150

So I'd love to go down there and experiences E. I wish every American could go through animal economics. It should be treated as a modern wonder wonder of the world. And what, uh, on the panel is working hard. Thio make it more accessible. The big ships on is a completely different situation, and I understand everything except the source of the water because if you continue to run the old settle locks at the same rate, and I mean you're you're risking losing a lot of water because it's all gravity and what?

00:48:42.160 - 00:49:06.020

And then the same time running these other locks where they could only save theoretically 40% of the water boy, that's gonna risk that canal. And we had a time down on the Panama Canal, where the lake level is normally 87 ft and it can go up to 87 3 quarters.

00:49:06.020 - 00:49:33.400

And then, boy, you better start empty and get to Lake because if not, you'll flood out. The gateau unlocks and whatnot with water level. But at one year we actually went from 87 a half feet at the beginning of the dry season and before the rains came again, the lake level was down to 81 ft because they had no rings to speak of the dry season.

00:49:34.120 - 00:49:53.390

In Panama, you don't have Ah, winter in the summer or anything. You have a rainy season which lasts about eight months on the dry season, which lasts about four months, and that rain is supposed to keep the lake replenished and by using the Madam Lake up top.

00:49:54.150 - 00:50:23.340

That is a place to spend water down and whatnot before that. But it was the ship levels, normally a ship going through the Panama Canal. Um, the maximum draft. The maxim, either in whatever is 39 ft, six inches in fresh water and the Panama Canal because of the lake level drop, had dropped the level of the Panama of the ships transiting to 36 ft six inches.

00:50:23.610 - 00:50:41.780

And they were just on the verge of dropping at 2 36 ft when the rains came again and they started to get water supply back in the lake, and they were able shortly after that, get the lake level back up and then get the ship's drives back up so they could make money doing it.

00:50:42.360 - 00:51:05.110

And there was so many good things about the Panama Canal. I loved it, but what I can really say is our two kids were born there on, and they're both married, and I have my wife and I have four grandchildren, beautiful kids, and we're very, very proud of the way our kids went through life.

00:51:05.120 - 00:51:27.200

But I told both the kids when you get out of high school in the canal Zone. You are not staying in the canal zone to many of the graduates of the Christo Bill or the Valuable High school found the canal zone on the Atlantic assault and Pacific salt water is so fresh that they didn't bother to go get an education.

00:51:27.200 - 00:51:44.310

They went and got themselves escape, uh, boards for water skiing and whatnot. And they spent their time in tandem. Oh, in the sun and everything. E told me, because you're not going to do that. If you want. An education will give you four years college education.

00:51:45.160 - 00:52:01.300

If you don't want that, then decide what you want to do. But I suggest you bow. You go in the military if you don't like it. Both my kids went to college in the States. Neither one of them had a desire to go to the the junior college down in Panama Canal Zone.

00:52:01.300 - 00:52:24.010

They wanted to get out on their own and go in high school. When were they born? The one was born in 19 stop of 66. My daughter was born in 1966. That's Lynn and our son David was born in 1969 and they completed high school in the zone.

00:52:24.010 - 00:52:56.880

And then Then they left and our daughter, actually, because she had her summers off. She came home for the summer and she went toe work for the Panama Canal Company. And she is legally, by two summer jobs. 1/5 generation employees on the Canal Zone. But our son was involved in ROTC Air Force ROTC, and he never got down during the summer so I could never qualify with a Panama Canal Corker.

00:52:57.160 - 00:53:18.650

Do they visit now with their Children at all? Get the wonderful Children they got through? The oldest one is eight. The youngest, one is on. The other side of the family is three or four on a good kid way. Spend Father Today. First time we spent a whole family together since college days, her father's day to their son.

00:53:18.650 - 00:53:58.360

His son is an Air Force officer. He's a lieutenant colonel, and he's with missiles, sites and whatnot. And he spent most of his time west of the Mississippi River wherever the missiles or best, but is now stationed in Washington, IP Washington D C. Area and lives in Stafford Virginia and our daughters up in Westminster, Maryland, and we were able to all get together for a father that it was a great way, had a beautiful time, And, uh, but my life in the canal was beautiful.

00:53:58.360 - 00:54:27.610

I love going up down there, and, uh, even though I had some hard times in the canal and some develops a dislike for some of the people and whatnot down there in the long run, and I detested Jimmy Carter for what he did. That's all changed now when I I frequently watch what's going on the canal with this channel that you can watch on their computers and whatnot, right and see what's going on down there when you think they're handling it well and doing a good job.

00:54:27.650 - 00:54:47.060

So I'm very happy with what's going on down there and, you know, to divide a country completely in half because you had the canal zone all the way from here to here. There's a canal picture and, you know, which way do you go through the Panama Canal, east and west?

00:54:48.340 - 00:55:22.980

Mm east or west, west to east. You're going north to South. I'll show you something here when you think this is north right here? Right? Right. And there is where you start your actually 21 miles further east when you go to the Pacific Ocean. You started here in the Atlantic, but when you finished up down here in the Pacific, you were 21 miles further east than you were when you started in the Atlantic.

00:55:22.990 - 00:56:01.070

But people seem to forget the Central America comes down, and then it Cruz like e. And that's what you're looking at. And I'm gonna give you just thes are alive. I mean, pictures that were really taken, family pictures. And that's my grandmother there. That's great. And I've written on some of them with using computer factions those air postcards, pictures that were taken of my grandmother in the locks on what?

00:56:01.070 - 00:56:24.670

Not theirs. That's a canal zone home in there. And that's now 40 ft where it waas was 40 ft underwater. Because when they filled the lake, the town of boho disappeared thes air. Great. Does the museum have copies of these? I have some copies of them.

00:56:24.670 - 00:56:50.930

Yes. I'm gonna have you met. Joe was Yeah. I will talk to Joe and see when that's the place he had up in the interior. E. I don't know how he got so many people up there relatives only just for the photograph. Yeah, just photographs that were taken in those days, but and then, if now that is the letter.

00:56:50.940 - 00:57:14.500

That's the actual letter that my great grandfather wrote as he was sailing down to Panama. And he wrote every day and put things in about what he ate, what the weather was like and everything. That's great that you still have all of this. Yeah, let especially a bad Xerox professionally to make him look the same.

00:57:14.500 - 00:57:36.250

I'm sending copies, all of my kids. And that's the article my great grandfather wrote. Probably the star Herald Andi. It's very interesting for him to talk about the conditions down there, and that's again the house that's 40 ft underwater on. That's the family looking out the window.

00:57:36.260 - 00:58:06.510

And that's my Uncle David standing out in front of the house back in those days. Yeah. Yep. It's like a town underwater. Help! Oh, no, no. This is the town of New Christo. Okay, on, uh, it's surrounded all the way back here by the town of Colon on that was taken in 2006, and I'm sorry.

00:58:06.520 - 00:58:42.890

That was taken in 2006. Apparently, this was taken in, and I got it off the computer. What do you think? Oh, good. This is the high school I went to. Oh, let's see you. Good memories. Yeah. And if you turn that page over, outlined with various sites where I lived, okay, down there on and drew a line over to the approximately.

00:58:42.890 - 00:59:02.700

I can't actually see the house I lived in. But when you went back Thio area in 1998. Did you visit the town in high school and everything? Yes, we did drive around there. But what had been the canal zone community? All that was in the Republic of Panama in colon Mm.

00:59:02.710 - 00:59:24.980

Was in some in good shape, but many of them in bad shape. By this time, the Panamanians were very poor over there, and you did not have a comfortable feeling being in there. You were a little bit afraid of what? And many of those pictures. Now, those air official pictures that I got from the government office and whatnot.

00:59:26.700 - 00:59:51.080

But the family pictures, they're all really pictures that I inherited through my family. And what on then these air for the the the new locks that are being built in. Okay, here's I keep that in there for information on Then here's a copier. Yeah, photocopies, Good toe.

00:59:51.080 - 01:00:20.560

Have a copy and sensitive stuff like that. I protect them with those on. I'm going to see if Joe would wants that for the museum. Yeah, and I have extra copies and there are family things. And if they would like to take and put him in there because I'm really a man who is proud that my family will build the Panama Canal and there's one in here that I say this finally and you can't see it now but where my grandmother was.

01:00:20.640 - 01:00:51.770

Oh, no, this one here, I tell people on. It's written on one of the copies I've made that if my grandmother had not been helping to dig the Panama Canal, that canal would never have opened in 1914. It would probably have opened in 1916 if she hadn't been other e see pictures here for helping out there would just just leaning over those days.

01:00:51.770 - 01:01:15.520

I Apparently it was very free, Uh, just walk and go anyplace. And I think that's the Pacific clocks. Mira Flores on. She was digging in there, but where she's leaning over the wall is gateau unlocks, uh, and I at the top of that one on the original.

01:01:15.520 - 01:01:34.950

I said, I I'm so glad my grandmother had a pipe to hang on to her. She would have. Could have fallen right in. Yeah, she's right on the edge, holding onto the pipe. All right, well, thank you so much for your time. I'm very happy to do it.