00:00:01.440 - 00:00:22.220

all right, Mr Shirvell. Well, first of all, thank you so much for taking time out of the busy reunion scheduled toe. Sit with us to do an interview on Guy Wonder. Could we start by having you describe your, um, life kind of generally early life in the canal?

00:00:22.220 - 00:00:45.810

Where you second generation person or did you move there or did you know I moved there later, I went down to Panama Canal when I was about 30 to do an internship at Gorgas Hospital. It was I was interested in tropical medicine and public health, and it was really one of the very, very few places that you could happen.

00:00:45.810 - 00:01:11.060

Improved internship, that had any tropical medicine. It all. And that's what took. That's what took me down to the Canal zone in the first place. That was in 1961. Okay, I did my internship, and then they were short staff in a couple of areas, and I took the opportunity to work with about six months to make Dr salary, to pay some debts and to save some money.

00:01:12.190 - 00:01:34.910

And then, after that, went back to the United States. Actually, when I went to Stanford, I was there from 1963 to 1970 uh, doing post post graduate medicine and also for a while and on the staff and community medicine. And then way had Children, their two Children.

00:01:34.920 - 00:01:53.790

And then we went back thinking we go back to the canal zone for a couple of years in 1970. And that stretched on until the time of mandatory retirement for me at age 62 1993. And so your Children went to high school and in Panama? Yes, they were in.

00:01:53.800 - 00:02:15.360

They were in kindergarten and first grade when we left California. And they went through their schooling through graduation from high school here. No, no. Today. In which high school did they attend? Their high school high school? Okay. And the bust? The bust of the school now is down in the theme the museum, right.

00:02:16.240 - 00:02:34.250

That was kind of a joke thing. Every every year, the students would either captured or the painted pink with green spots on. It was kind of a fun game between the staff and the students who was gonna bet if the students would get away with messing about Buddha statue that went on all the time.

00:02:34.260 - 00:03:00.580

Uh, what was your impression about kind of a social life? Political life, but comparing it between the Panama Canal Zone and, say United States in the sixties and seventies, says he went back and forth well, we were in the canal zone. We were living in a quite benign system of socialism.

00:03:01.140 - 00:03:22.410

Everybody, Everybody was salaried who lived there. There were Americans who were in business in Panama City, but the canals on was kind of a socialistic system. Salaries were squished together. So craftsman made mawr relative to the United States and people upper levels made less relative to the United States.

00:03:22.560 - 00:03:44.690

There were no fancy big houses and there were no slums. And so the quality of houses also was, I'll call it squashed together toward toward the median rather than the extremes in either direction. On, uh, we all we all shop in a commissary. There weren't really other weren't really other options.

00:03:44.700 - 00:04:13.650

Uh, later, as Panama improved, there were options downtown. But even this latest in 19 sixties early 19 seventies shopping downtown was not as good a shopping in the Panama Canal commissaries. And did you? Aziz, your is your kids were going through through school. What? What kind of educational experiences did they have in the Canal Zone?

00:04:15.040 - 00:04:31.990

My opinion is that the canals on schools were better. Somewhat can even, maybe considerably better is than most schools in the United States. I'm not going to compare us to to urban magnet schools or something like that. But in general, I think they were quite good.

00:04:31.990 - 00:04:49.220

The schools at that time where the canals alone schools after the treaty, they became Department of Defense Dependent Schools. Uh, but in either case, I'd stand by what I said. Part of it is a matter of money. The teachers were paid better salaries in general than in the United States.

00:04:49.230 - 00:05:08.060

Secondly, they're always folks that are looking for some adventure in life who came to Panama and later to DOD schools because it just was a thrill to go somewhere, to go work in the jungle, to be where the beaches are. And so I think our schooling was really good.

00:05:08.060 - 00:05:22.860

A lot of kids, a lot of kids, I think that's another area where you could see this kind of socialistic system made a difference in the and that a lot of kids. Blue collar workers ended up going to very good schools in the States and getting their degrees.

00:05:23.740 - 00:05:46.760

Our kids didn't have any trouble. Well, our daughter daughter went to Swarthmore evidence in our medical school. Our son Alan did a PhD in electrical engineering and rice never felt I don't think I can say I can really speak for them. But for the most part, I don't think felt handicapped by what they had for high school.

00:05:48.340 - 00:06:14.470

What was what was social life like in the canal zone? Um, there were a fair amount of clubs. People belonged Thio, that that was fostered during construction because early in construction, people were going back to the States. Almost a fast assed. They came down here because there were no amenities.

00:06:14.480 - 00:06:47.480

And so club houses and a lot of other things were fostered. Those weren't still in extent at the time we came here, but I think the idea of clubs and doing things together had continued in the canal zone. And of course there were. Let's just all sorts of things from Foreign Legion Thio Historical Society to garden clubs, whatever and what types of club clubs did you participate?

00:06:47.480 - 00:07:07.150

It are. I think zero e worked with Boy Scouts. A good deal. Okay, I guess that Zatz kind of like a club in the sense that I really enjoyed the other adults that I worked with. But I spent a lot of time working Boy Scouts. I was in the American Society.

00:07:07.740 - 00:07:31.430

Yes, on officer of one kind or another in debt for a long time. Was for initially was for Americans who are in business downtown. Later it was Brandy Americans here. It was kind of an active way to get together. Was that was that kind of a business kind of associations like the Chamber of Commerce or I've never really It was really quite social.

00:07:32.200 - 00:07:56.350

The garden club, for example, was wonderful because it had no purpose. It had no officers. It had no constitution. It took place of the lady who's called Morgan's Gardens. That Morgan she'd been a nurse. It front in World War one in France and had had gardens for economic purposes on she was the one really that kept it going.

00:07:56.350 - 00:08:16.610

Even when she was quite old. That was the idea of Society. Way didn't have to spend two years writing a new constitution ever just wouldn't have a good time. Uh, and after your graduate and internship graduate work and at Stanford, did you come back and work?

00:08:16.610 - 00:08:43.230

Is a practicing doctor Or at that time at that time I came back and I I did Adolescent medicine, pediatrics department and I was in public health. I did a lot of work in the schools, did some work and, well, baby clinics. Gradually, over time, I did more and more just straight public health preventive medicine on a lot more administrative time.

00:08:43.240 - 00:09:02.630

Although I saw all during my career, I always had two days a week where I saw patients because I don't e don't believe the doctor. E stop seeing patients. Knows what medicine is about After a couple of years. Yeah. What were the and what were the the facilities that you had to work with?

00:09:02.670 - 00:09:26.740

Andi Canal Zone. How those have compared to facilities, say, in the United States at the same time? Uh, not a slick looking, but basically better. Better on. I didn't have funding problems. I mean, later on, when I was in charge of all of that, I just didn't have any funding problems.

00:09:28.110 - 00:09:45.870

The work was funded by the Yes, Everman or the everything. Everything here was funded by the ship's going through the canal. Okay, on what was left over went to the U. S. Government. I don't know what it was over time, but millions of dollars were paid into the U.

00:09:45.870 - 00:10:10.170

S. Treasury over the American life of the canal. Yes. If there were a worldwide recession, shipping tonnage went down. Then we had to cut stuff out of our budget way. Always had to have. We always had to have a plan for what was going to be cut in some kind of rank order in case in case the ship transits once that went down.

00:10:10.840 - 00:10:41.450

But for the most part, it was such that that, uh if you're incredible manager, you didn't have any trouble with funding. What were the politics? Leichter of the the country that at that time and history? Well, when we came when? When we came back When he came back in 1961 it was fairly much like it had been since the opening of the canal.

00:10:41.450 - 00:11:11.040

Since the time the gringos came here. Uh, yes. On things where there were tensions between Panama and the United States in 1964. There was there was a real confrontation, shooting and breaking diplomatic relations closing to the bridge By the time we have time, we came back in 1970 was clear that the United States hold on.

00:11:11.040 - 00:11:34.070

The canal was going to end some time. There was an attempt to do a treaty in 1967 but it was broken when the three colonels came to power in 1968 Tory Hose was one of the three kernels that was left standing, and he was pretty much in charge of the country by the time we came back in 1970 initially, initially, he was quite benign.

00:11:34.640 - 00:11:55.910

Andi, I will give him credit for, uh, pouring money into universities, schools in health. The other thing that Oreos did was opened the way for black people and Indians and Chinese who up until that time could not expect ever thio rice very high in the government.

00:11:59.540 - 00:12:25.660

I'm sure there were exceptions. There always are, but in general of black kid face to really uphill find, even if it is very clever, well educated Thio do mhm after a not society that levels of employment either in the government or private business. And Corey Hose broke that Panama changed totally from from that and that's still true.

00:12:26.430 - 00:12:57.050

What? And what kind of Aziz you is? You think back on, say, the political social system in Panama, Dr. Seville did. What kind of impact did the U. S have on any of this on say that three colonels or social system in Panama? Well, my own personal opinion is the three Colonel ists would not have overthrown Arnulfo Arias and come to power without some kind of backdoor agreement with the U.

00:12:57.050 - 00:13:17.560

S. Military here or or the State Department or both. It's inconceivable to me that they would have because the United States intervened enough times that they had that as a good example. That's me speaking. I've never run into anything written about that, but I think that's not something that would appear very easily either.

00:13:18.240 - 00:13:46.160

Oh, Tory, who's played? He always dressed in fatigue uniform Allah Castro, Andi. He toured the country a lot, made a lot out of starting peasant things. There was a lot of interchange with Cuba. There was nationalization of a lot of farms, small farms to create huge state owned sugar plantations up in the interior.

00:13:46.440 - 00:14:12.470

So there was there was a fair amount of movement in a leftward economic disposition of the country. This started. I think there's a lot of enthusiasm initially on I don't know. I mean, I'm not in a position know how things got started, but gradually, I think on the top first people began drilling holes in the cash box and catching what came out.

00:14:12.940 - 00:14:32.510

And if the top guy is taking the next guy down feels he has the right, the next guy in the next guy. So gradually, Gradually the system had more and more troubles for people that were well connected in the government or even on lower levels are doing things for their own purposes.

00:14:32.520 - 00:14:54.560

Also, a lot of economic situations in Panama were carved up amongst the colonels and lieutenant colonels so that the guy, if a guy had the telephones, for example, the Colonel, I can't remember his name. But one colonel had the telephones on a lot of money had to go out to get a new telephone system, and the more you put the faster you got one.

00:14:54.740 - 00:15:16.090

He didn't do anything. He just collected the money. That's an example, but that that occurred in many facets of economic life in Panama. But up until really up until Noriega, otherwise the surface was really quite peaceable. I'm not going to say there weren't tensions, but there were.

00:15:16.100 - 00:15:47.430

But early on, there were a lot of desaparecidos. Uh huh. Under Tory hosts And the Colonel's has, um, had some video clips, people digging up graves, and it didn't identifying people that opposed to the regime and disappeared. There was a case of Padre Gallegos. He was a Colombian priest who was rather leftist, and on working for the poor on he disappeared.

00:15:47.430 - 00:16:09.250

He was working up in Barajas where Tory those came from. Andi disappeared. It selects that he had a leg of like pork tattoos tied to his leg and dropped off in Shark Channel. Out here, nobody really knows. And there was a lot of to do over that e think that's the main one that I remember.

00:16:09.260 - 00:16:33.170

But there were little things going on. People occasionally were shot. I was involved in a visit for President Carter in 1977 on five kids five kids died at the University of Panama that night and and some demonstrations against him. But it wasn't until it wasn't until Noriega that things really turns are.

00:16:36.040 - 00:16:59.310

When President Carter came to visit. What was the what was the reception given to him? Quite positive. Quite post. I mean, look, Panamanians had felt that they had been screwed by the United States in 19, 3 on to some extent had been, uh, and they've been wanting things better for a long time.

00:16:59.310 - 00:17:19.870

For example, in the twenties and thirties, you could only drive in the canal zone and if you had a canals on license. So Panamanian families going to the interior when they got to the border of the zone west west of Panama City would have to hire a driver to drive through the canal zone because they were not allowed to drive through the canal zone.

00:17:20.440 - 00:17:40.130

Be if you were what's called Blanco. Blanco is a bird that looks like it's wearing a tuxedo. And so the term for very rich old family people here is Robbie Manco, and if you were Robbie Blanco, you could get a permit. But the average citizen couldn't and kids who came over to get mangoes were chased out.

00:17:40.420 - 00:18:04.230

It was there was a lot of prejudice against against them. A very different person, person or a lot of people from the South and of interest from New England carried a lot of prejudice against Panamanians who were. And so when President Carter visited in 77 there, Panamanians at least kind of saw him in a positive Oh, yes, Oh, yes, by all means.

00:18:04.230 - 00:18:23.910

I mean, they were getting They were getting Panama back. Canal Zone was coming back. Lock, stock and barrel. The treaty was the negotiations were finished in 1977 in the place that it was going to start taking place two years later in 1979 s. So I think there was another outpouring.

00:18:23.920 - 00:18:48.880

Positive Phillips for President Carter. How about within the zone itself? Were you know, I'm not terribly sure about that because I don't see we weren't born here, and I don't neither. None of us had the feeling that it is a birthright. On the other hand, a lot of people the canal zone, whose grand parents and great grand parents came down to build a canal in the family have been there every since they looked upon.

00:18:48.880 - 00:19:19.460

This is their birthright, their homeland. And they simply didn't want to canal to go. There are other people that were fairly large, at least compared to me, farther to the right who felt for other reasons that the canal zone shouldn't go. If you want to see a practical reason for that, draw a 1500 mile radius around Howard Air Force Base and then draw went around Homestead Air Force Base and see how much you can command in Latin America by air.

00:19:19.740 - 00:19:43.660

Right, Andi? Uhh eso You know, I think there are military reasons we're in the treaty. We might have wanted Thio control something. So there were There were people that were like that. But there was a great deal of opposition to the treaty, and there were a number of people who worked very hard to try to derail the treaty in any way that they could.

00:19:43.670 - 00:20:03.780

I think the number of people who were either neutral or else for the treaty was a good deal more than was publicly thought, because those who are against it were very out spoken. If you're a moderate left us today in the meeting of, uh, tea party people, you might keep your mouth shut.

00:20:03.790 - 00:20:45.900

E think that would be a good analogy. Mhm. Do you know it's interesting you mentioned that doctors will, because the people that we've interviewed so far um, talk about the canal zone is being almost like an exception to American life in general. I mean, they the description is often it was almost like it was, uh, a static world in a way that things didn't change in the zone the way things were changing in the United States is that fair to say or is that that's true To some extent, everything always changes.

00:20:45.910 - 00:21:05.450

There were significant changes from 1963 when I left after being an intern, to when my family came back towards the end of 1970 e. There were a lot of changes, and they did affect Canal Zone. But I think that's a fair statement to say, a friend here who was in business downtown.

00:21:07.340 - 00:21:30.120

Oh, who had been in Argentina at the start, English in Argentina. There a lot of English people in the n b. A. Andi. He had been in Argentina to start of World War two win pack and fought with the Brits, then came back to Argentina recently, went back to Argentina is because he said it was like Britain when he was when he was a small child on.

00:21:30.120 - 00:21:49.210

I think there's some truth in that. I think people people looked at the canal zone is something like uh 1935 to 1950 in perpetuity. And there was a good feeling. I mean, I'll grant you that I had a certain amount of comfort for that. I grew up in a little bit of small town in the Middle West.

00:21:49.340 - 00:22:22.710

Yeah, on board, not not terribly happy. It was a lot of the social movements that we have going on economic movements in the United States. I have some discomfort for that. So So there's a sense of stability. Maybe in in the zone. Sure What? I'm sorry E was gonna ask you what kind of so far, people have not really mentioned the types of political figures that you often hear people talking about the sixties like John F.

00:22:22.710 - 00:22:53.830

Kennedy or Lyndon Johnson or Martin Luther King. Or did that have any impact? That way came from California. 1970 e been in San Francisco in Palo Alto during during all that turbulence way were there when flower Children started in Golden Gate Park. I used to go spend some time in the Haight Ashbury and, you know, the last up until I left in 1970.

00:22:53.830 - 00:23:15.440

That then 68 murders in the Haight Ashbury district. Most of the drug wars, which is what? Which is what the flower Children came to. Uh, so in that sense, I think that it was kind of unchanging. I think down here, people had no idea, really social turmoil that was going on.

00:23:15.450 - 00:23:34.950

People got drafted and went off to Vietnam. Uh, my time in the Army was during the Korean War on nobody in the United States raised Al about getting drafted in the Korean War. That just wasn't done. It wasn't a part of our culture a time. All of that was happening in the United States during the Vietnamese war draft.

00:23:34.950 - 00:23:54.600

Card burning, Uh, people saying sack of save the whales sacrificed Joan Fonda. All that kind of stuff that was not happening down here just wasn't it was absent. Yeah, but people I kind of knew what was happening at a distance, you think or they just didn't really.

00:23:54.610 - 00:24:20.860

The kids in high school emulated to some extent, and we did have a drug problem. In fact, God was kind of recruited back here to do was a drug problem. Young young people more than anything else. Uh, but they started talking about it. Having having come from the Bay Area in 1970 I had a hard time seeing what the hell that we're talking about initially about big drug problem.

00:24:20.860 - 00:24:55.760

It was here. It was significant, but comparatively speaking, not much. And you mentioned earlier that it was almost a sense that people could see a treaty, Um, renegotiation of some kind coming in the horizon. There were trading negotiations, and first of all, the white paper about the canal zone was written in the Eisenhower administration was extended in archives up their federal government.

00:24:55.760 - 00:25:21.350

WAAS dedicated having some kind of different arrangement with Panama from 1955 on on a treaty was actually negotiated in 1967 1968. But that went out the window when the colonel's came to power. We made government may have had something to do with that suspect. That which could never know.

00:25:21.740 - 00:25:43.850

We may find out 50 years from now or something, or somebody s right. Exactly. Did you were you still in in the canal zone? I guess I should kind of back and ask when you are retired. 1994. 1st of 1994. Okay, I lived through all of everything.

00:25:44.580 - 00:26:14.470

19 for three years from 1976 through a little while after the treaty took effect was the president. The Pacific City Council, which was essentially theological, did mirror of the canal zone. So I lived through all kinds of stuff, making arrangements for older people to be taken care of, trying to make some arrangements with some people in Panama.

00:26:15.140 - 00:26:35.930

Yeah, looking into what kind of retirements that people would have appeared before Congress probably 10 or 12 times during that period of time. So for somebody who was not paid to be in that position, probably was a central toe, All the negotiations, everything that went on, it could have been.

00:26:35.940 - 00:26:53.740

So as president of the Civic, you're president of Civic Council, and that was kind of like, in some ways, being the leader was kind of the civic Society in some ways, right? Well, it would be like anything even people elect a mayor. But that's not all.

00:26:53.740 - 00:27:09.770

The political activity that goes on our neighbor at that time was one of the was one of the most active people against the treaty, and it was crazy radical. And, uh, we were glad when he moved because he always afraid they block this house and was hit by a little shrapnel.

00:27:09.780 - 00:27:33.840

No, but that dick talk about black. I think it's very important. Can it is part of the whole city Council, I think, the understanding of the black communities and the white communities. I suppose you have gotten some of this information and what happened through the treaty and your experience.

00:27:33.840 - 00:28:02.880

Who was with MidCap? Yeah, Congressman Cap Mid cap me. Oh, he was a congressman from Louisiana, but he was on. He was second Thio Jesse Owens in the 36 Olympics in Berlin and honored Meter Dash. He was on. He was on the 400 m relay that set a world record, that with Jesse Owens that stood for a long period of time and had been in Congress he was.

00:28:02.890 - 00:28:24.770

I got to know him very well and I don't know. I don't know. There was an earlier date when, for some reason, Uhh. All of the Canal Zone had to have school speaking the same language. That's how it was gonna be here. People going to speak the same language.

00:28:25.430 - 00:28:48.590

And in order to keep the blacks it was schools were segregated. Hospital is segregated. Hospital is segregated. Still, when I got here in 19, 60 months, wards were segregated. The euphemism was local rate and US rate, which went back to how people were paid during the construction.

00:28:48.600 - 00:29:05.940

Uh, and in the schools, what happened is overnight. It was decided that all the black people were Panamanian, so they would go to a Spanish speaking school. The teachers were told, if they want to teach in the fall, that better learn some Spanish E don't you know what that was?

00:29:05.950 - 00:29:25.200

I don't Sometimes that was some time before the treaty, but at any rate, part of the treaty was that any any black kids that continue to live in the canal. So after the treaty would all go to the U. S. Schools and there was a fair amount of opposition to that.

00:29:25.210 - 00:29:46.590

There were there were some difficulties. They weren't all easy to teach kids that were a few more problems for whatever unit of kids there. Uh, that's what happened in the United States. So that happened here late and was associated with the treaty. And there was there was a lot of opposition to that.

00:29:46.600 - 00:30:07.790

There were no problems. Parents lining up and spitting on kids or anything of that sort. Just a lot of talk and unhappiness. And they start the melted the kids in starting with one year so that after a certain amount of time, all of the grades would include the blacks.

00:30:07.790 - 00:30:26.290

But the ones say, over in the black high schools at the time this happened to local rate high schools, they would graduate without ever going to the U. S. Schools. And there were a lot of that. There were a lot of Spanish speaking people in those schools, and they simply changed to schools in Panama.

00:30:26.370 - 00:30:50.350

There was some of that that took place to mhm, so there's a fair amount of of segregation within the different institutions in the canal zone, especially schools insured. Uh, hospitals. Way first got here. We were driving way. Bought ourselves a little black VW. About three days after we got here, we were driving around to look at what we're gonna be living in for a while.

00:30:50.440 - 00:31:14.150

We came around the corner and, uh, there was some guys digging for a sewer water pipe or something. And there were five black guys sitting down in the hole on there was a big, tall, fat white guy leaning against Palm Tree reading the newspaper. There was a lot of that, uh, supervising, right, But But there were a lot of other ideas.

00:31:14.150 - 00:31:31.170

I remember. Okay, Who was the superintendent of locks on the Atlantic side? It's a very good friend of mine on, uh, after the treaty we had, we had a lot of retirements. Both the US and Panamanians as well. And I was asking how he was working without all the U.

00:31:31.170 - 00:31:46.270

S. People. He said, you don't do it. It's not the U. S. People that are causing me trouble. He says it z old 55 year old guy that pulls on my sleeve and said, Abbas, bass man, we have the same problem back in 1952. That's what we do.

00:31:46.270 - 00:32:15.330

Then why you tried that? I think it fix it, boss, he said. Those were the guys that air that are causing me trouble to run. The lost their absence Yes, on in the midst of this, you know, there was. There was a lot of there was a lot of comraderie also between whites and blacks and good friendships of people that work together so that I don't want to leave the impression that it was like the South in 1935 either.

00:32:15.920 - 00:32:43.060

Never was that hard. What kind of Aziz ships were coming through? Um, would you say Panama Waas? Do the ships have an impact on social life that people pick up news from people coming through the canal or where they more like a where those people coming through more like a transient?

00:32:43.840 - 00:33:09.110

No, I think later they didn't have any effect at all, perhaps earlier, before radio is before television. Perhaps perhaps there were. The tourist made some difference. But as faras as's faras affecting their lives really, people in Panama the cultures were different enough that somebody coming through an attraction basis, I don't think, could really affect the life of anybody in Panama.

00:33:09.120 - 00:33:31.510

They were They were just people going by. Okay, way about him and act like a native and let it go with that. Alright, Uh, and you were you president of the Civic Council during operation just cause, or is that after? No, that just cause was quite a bit later.

00:33:31.510 - 00:33:58.280

That's a decade later. Just cause was in 1989. And I can't tell you the day, but let's say early in 1980 I finished three terms. That was, uh I have done my duty. What? What were some of your most difficult duties? As as president? Okay, well, I don't know about difficult.

00:34:00.040 - 00:34:18.580

Probably the most difficult part where that there were certain people on the City Council are radically against the treaty on trying trying to balance that developed techniques for how the meeting around, depending on what I expected. If I thought it was gonna be really wild and bad, I would not call it cut off any discussion.

00:34:18.580 - 00:34:30.920

I'd let people talk as long as they wanted to. And all of a sudden there would be 10 o'clock and would have to go home. Nothing happened. If if it was gonna be peaceable, then I'd control the meeting and have a direction to go. But that Z, that's nothing.

00:34:30.920 - 00:34:47.310

That that's what people do If if they're running and meeting any place you developed techniques to try to avoid that so that you not take people head on. Also another technique I used as if people raised a lot of hell. I, uh, asked three of the worst of them.

00:34:47.320 - 00:35:09.670

Thio develop a position paper that we could look at. Usually they never had. It would be quiet after. Okay, that's a good technique. And you mentioned going to give congressional testimony. Was that testimony on behalf of the council, or was that people people in that? Okay.

00:35:10.440 - 00:35:30.310

And how did you put together? Was that what was the process of? Were you canvassing people in the canal zone for their ideas? Well, from my position, that didn't really have to do that. E I got every I don't remember how often met. Now it's monthly or what I think it was.

00:35:30.310 - 00:35:48.490

It got busier for the treaty. It was even more often than once a month, But I think I think I had a pretty good earful from that. The other thing is that I'd go down to shop, to commissary and on. I usually couldn't get out without people telling me what they really thought, How it should manage things, what I should tell the governor.

00:35:49.140 - 00:36:14.160

So I've been And maybe I'm not quite that democratic. Uh, you know, try to put together what I could, uh, and Onley for some things. I would do some canvassing to find out. But in general, I had had some people that I knew and trusted some more conservative, some more liberal who I would consult what they thought about this in that or something that I was writing.

00:36:14.170 - 00:36:40.810

I wrote all my position papers. Totally. Oh, when I was going to testify, Mhm. And did you, when you went to testify, did you find, um, a receptive audience in Congress where people trying thio kind of gauge American opinion within the canal? Or were they? Sometimes I know.

00:36:40.810 - 00:37:10.990

I don't think I ever found anybody that cared in Washington that care to figure about what people in the canals on, uh, we were sort of kind of strange people set off distance. Can I interrupt you for just a moment because one of the things that happened not only did representatives from Panama from the canals and go and people from Congress we continually had a group of congressmen as they like to do is to come down and visit the canal.

00:37:10.990 - 00:37:43.780

So apparently on a fact finding mission on DSO, one of the social gatherings that was Eric big or during any senatorial or congressional meeting was to go on a midnight crews from Balboa on one of the I don't remember what ship it waas. I remember the ship, but we had we had We had a ship that would go through the locks, not on the lake and on and then turn around and come back.

00:37:43.790 - 00:38:09.330

And so it was a cruise ship primarily for visiting dignitaries. Although people in the canal zone could read it, use it. But during some of those during some of those midnight, you know, Viz is that when we were invited to have dinner and socialized with, and particularly with Senator, Congressman Spelman shows the congressman Spelman.

00:38:09.330 - 00:38:40.070

Yeah, she was She was She came out of the Department of Education herself. She would and as a board member something like She started a school board in Maryland and she was very interested in education on one of the things that we've particularly worked with her all night, in fact, waas to incorporate within whether it was the treaty or whatever it WAAS.

00:38:40.080 - 00:39:14.350

And one of the things was to have a, uh, sabbatical for teachers because there was very difficult for them to get additional education coming out of the canal zone. And so there were some perks like that that actually effectively got into some of the negotiations. And I think everybody on those ships that night had something to tell a congressman that they wanted t o in the treaty.

00:39:14.720 - 00:39:37.830

Yeah, it was. It was variable. She was quite interested. Metcalf was quite interested. I don't remember. I remember a lot who were not interested in. Remember, remember, Clarence, People, senators, representatives who already had their own idea on Would you back off quickly because you're since they were soon going to be pissed off because you didn't agree with their preconceived picture.

00:39:37.840 - 00:39:56.780

But the two best lobbying my two best lobbying points were the boat ship on the train because we went to the other side by train and people would come down for a fact finding. And we drive right over on the train. Remember, our daughter went, went to school.

00:39:56.780 - 00:40:12.810

The school that was right on the border. It was a small school. Her class looked like the United Nations. There was a little Scottish boy, was wand and blue eyed as you could be, right, right up to totally black kids and everything in between. And they had been been a congressman.

00:40:12.810 - 00:40:39.910

Medcalf, Congressman Medcalf all day, black people on the other side and almost countered everything that was said by showing a picture of my daughter's class smiling kids that looked like a biblical picture of the lion in lion. Uh, I think that just just went I think Dick, you want to talk about the experience?

00:40:39.910 - 00:41:03.490

It was not your experience with what happened with President Carter and the president of the Union of the Pilot Union, because well, actually, actually, I was half of that and he was half of that because way had people We're gonna finish early, and it was going to change on.

00:41:03.500 - 00:41:25.630

We were looking for some kind of better retirement for people that were going to lose a lifestyle and job be cut off. Early on, there was a fellow who is the president of Pilots Association, who had a friend with that was on Jimmy Carter's interior staff in the White House yourself.

00:41:26.210 - 00:41:47.710

Jordan. No, I don't think Well, it could have been hand Hamilton Children. I'm not sure about that. I just know that in any way between that was a lot of stuff that I did was representing Spelman. Man Metcalfe bows on. Actually, it was a truck of three ways.

00:41:48.640 - 00:42:06.620

Then Pilot, President, Pilots Association. God was some of that Carter staff. I don't know that I don't know the details, but he was highly effective in regard to the people. And that was the representative that was later indicted from Pennsylvania. And I can't bring his name up.

00:42:07.200 - 00:42:44.300

He was the one that actually put the bill before the house. But in our conversation previous to that, the pilot association had had a problem with the administration of the canal and I don't remember what the issue waas. But you can't go on strike against the government, but you can have a sick out on the pilots had a sick out and the teachers are supported the pilots with an additional sick out and a lot of other people and a lot of other people.

00:42:44.690 - 00:43:04.330

And this was during the Carter administration. This was This was later and I don't know Well, this was before the treaty, because when our conversation and I forget the name of the pilot association's president, John John John, I don't think he left or that trees. But he had a friend.

00:43:05.000 - 00:43:35.560

He got an appointment with Carter, and Carter said, What do you want? Because Carter, one of the treaty hey said Well, and one of the things from conversations that you and other people had had with John was they were asking for what is called what in 18, 48 18 years and 48 years old, you could retire without penalty from the U.

00:43:35.560 - 00:43:57.670

S. Government at that point as a way of easing people out what it was saying about protecting them, you could you could take your equity and run. Not that you're gonna get fantastically great retirement, but if you really felt threatened by it, or things change, so your job, you could take care of equity and run, Okay?

00:43:57.900 - 00:44:22.800

And so at that point, Carter said, You've got it. And John said, I want everybody toe, have it in the canals And the reason why he said that Because again there was there was this closeness among people and watching out for one another s o. He wanted to protect everybody, not just the pilots.

00:44:22.810 - 00:44:48.180

And he said, You know, the teachers went on the line for us. I want it for everybody you can answer. And he got into s so you were able to take your seniority and you could either retire or apply it to another. You could go to another government agency, other government, okay, thing if you had to leave, you had that little bit without penalty.

00:44:48.190 - 00:45:05.840

Okay, that you could take with you. It was it was fairly. It was fairly favorable. But that wasn't enough in itself, because only Congress could say that Carter couldn't say that he could say was supported, but it was mirth. Murphy, I think Congressman Murphy. But that's a question mark in Pennsylvania.

00:45:05.850 - 00:45:23.440

He was very friendly. Was on. He was on the committee that oversaw the canal. He was the one that introduced it. Murtha? No, not Murthy. That's the D Murtha's D o d a. Was Murphy. I try that. I'm not sure about that. But eventually it was approved.

00:45:23.450 - 00:45:39.310

This the strikeout or the sick out was interesting, because down from the Pentagon came all this thing. We're gonna fire everybody. We're going to run the canal with the Navy. And that just about sunk half a dozen ships. They folded. They found they couldn't run the canal.

00:45:39.890 - 00:45:57.860

Okay, now, So there was a The people who went out got scared, and the people are gonna fire. Mall got scared, too, because they didn't. You know, nobody's managing wants to have it. Something fail on their watch. So everybody got a little a little cooler. That's that's my view.

00:45:57.870 - 00:46:13.710

Okay, But the strike happened during the Carter administration, or I guess it did. I can't put that together. I guess that was during the treaty negotiations, because that's right. I'd say 78. Then let's say 1978. Okay. Weaken ballpark. Yeah, I find that out. But I'd say 78.

00:46:13.720 - 00:46:36.350

Yeah. This is the first time anyone has mentioned this. Uh, well, not that many people understood what was going on. Oh, you know, under the table, there's another factor, and that is the State Department had the giant bug of its, but about about people in the Canal Zone Anyway, there was.

00:46:36.360 - 00:47:01.360

There was a 50 year fight between the Pentagon, the Panama Canal Commission and Oh State, the State Department on the State Department oriented, everybody coming down. And they had all the stuff about all the manicured lawns, people who were taken care of so royally who lived here.

00:47:02.080 - 00:47:15.170

And so, you know, there was. There was some really prejudice. I know this because I had friends from down at the embassy and I dealt with him an awful lot during this time. They used to tell me about their orientation before coming here and laughing about it.

00:47:17.420 - 00:47:36.220

One colonel who was the head of the unit out of Fort Clayton, who I worked with in Boy Scouts and, you know, about after about two years, you said, you know, this is the best place I've ever had in my whole service. Courage says it's a shame it's coming to an end.

00:47:36.220 - 00:47:50.620

I would try to stay here and work, he said. They really poisoned me about what you people in the canal zone were like. And I found you to be very good people, like those in my hometown. So the Pentagon gave him a certain image of civilians.

00:47:50.630 - 00:48:10.220

Yeah, okay. At the State Department, both I don't know who did they or any. Maybe they both did it, but that maybe there's a certain amount of canals on paranoia, Uh, in that maybe even in my part. But I do really think that's quite true. I mean, primarily because I heard it from people in the military.

00:48:10.230 - 00:48:28.920

You? Well, interestingly enough, me Even though I was not in country as much in Fort Davis, we have heard the same thing about civilian life. Actually on it was like the way it was presented us with all those people that it's like a city on the hill.

00:48:28.930 - 00:48:47.790

And they have, they have it's paradise for them. And you guys were in the jungle, and you're you know, So we were there was never any was interesting because interviewing a couple yesterday, they said, Oh, we had great relations with the military, and I thought, Wow, I don't think we had negative relations when I was there, but we just didn't have any relations that I remember.

00:48:47.790 - 00:49:07.200

It would have been a different for officers made, but I think I think I think that's really true. First of all, the head of the hospital was always, uh, was always from the Army governor. The governor was Major general. The lieutenant governor was a colonel who would shortly be a brigadier general as he screwed up.

00:49:07.670 - 00:49:36.160

Engineering department was overseen by military engineers. I mean, it was a combination thing, and actually, this secretary of the Army was essentially the president of the board of directors for the Panama Canal on that went back from the time construction was over. So there are beyond that if you got to the officer staff at Fort Clayton especially out of Amador with the Navy and the Marines.

00:49:36.170 - 00:49:57.990

Yeah, relations were quite get, but I think a lot of a lot of people in the Canal zone didn't want their daughters running around us with enlisted men on. If you had a daughter and have been here, you probably would have taken the same view. So there there was, um you, State Department, Pentagon.

00:49:57.990 - 00:50:28.510

I mean, there were different, um, groups who saw themselves as having a stake in the canal zone. Well, there was a riel battle, which I only heard of just through Dick and other forces about who really was gonna control the canal zone. And there was this continual battle between the powers that be maybe those three forces.

00:50:28.570 - 00:50:51.840

It was a little tug and pull all all the time. So, uh, well, that really went into effect. You can guess some of the winnings because the head of the agency became a lieutenant general who was very good, who was very good. He came with for me a bad reputation because I knew some people.

00:50:51.840 - 00:51:04.690

But Corey Heights that worked for him. And he was prone to do things like getting everybody up at two AM in the morning to go to have a review of some situation, which I thought was just a good show. It was powerful, but he never demonstrated any of that.

00:51:05.270 - 00:51:28.560

Well, while he was head of the agency and I worked with a lot said in a lot of meetings and e I just thought he was excellent. That was general general color. Did you tell them about your invitation when you met in the treaty negotiations with some of the very, very wealthy power players in Panama.

00:51:29.760 - 00:51:57.120

Oh, that was interesting. There were a few of us that came over that we're not in the power structure that much in the canal zone or in the company. But it included three guys, one who was the foreign minister and to have been foreign ministers. And on some very powerful people in this testament, they were just They were essentially trying to drive us to come out for the treaty and and supported.

00:51:57.120 - 00:52:18.330

Of course I had. I hadn't been publicly terribly supportive of the treaty, but I have been I've been pro treaty from first of them. Seemed to me like our countries shouldn't really control Panama. This is Panama. Uh huh. Yeah. And then then after that, I was never contacted.

00:52:18.340 - 00:52:36.580

But some of the other people that were in that group were contacted by McAuliffe. Actually, no, that was perfect at that time. That was before the treaty. General Parfitt, who in kind of a general ways, suggested it would really be better to leave all the routes and negotiation to the to the pros in the State Department and the Pentagon.

00:52:37.240 - 00:53:03.600

But you were pretty little offered, wouldn't you? What would you know? I was the only one that was not, interestingly enough, I don't know why that WAAS later on I was offered. I was offered, but that was the time I was offered clear bribes was when we were building way put together the $10 million contract for the retired retired people from Pat Canal in Panama.

00:53:03.610 - 00:53:29.970

The old black folks downtown. Before the treaty was over, I managed to con money out Thio build. Ah, home for them. Uh, see low. That was done through one of those three. At that time, Big clinics in Panama Way had it out on bed. So largest, most famous climbing at that time with simple medical idea and ahead of that guy offered me a bunch of stuff.

00:53:31.140 - 00:53:50.930

Sort of shut them out. After that. They didn't. Unfortunately, they didn't have a little bit. I have been very unhappy if they had, but the time that we all know everybody else openly was offered something, and I'm not quite sure why wasn't. But I wasn't. I offered something to support the treaty Yeah.

00:53:50.930 - 00:54:16.980

I mean, what I'm talking about Position and money in Panama to stay interesting concrete and you're feeling, was that was offered by private individuals or by well, there was a mixed group Fernando Fernando That was his last name. Anyway, there's a family from Spain who left during a during the Civil War.

00:54:16.990 - 00:54:36.390

Hey went to Stanford from Panama, studied, studied, philosophy decided, couldn't make a living. So he studied engineering, set up the first television station, two radio stations and by the time I knew him, he was rich. It's minus later, Hernando later, Mhm Hey had had nothing to do with.

00:54:36.400 - 00:54:54.670

He had nothing to do with the government, and some of them were very much in opposition. Thio to the government. But this is before Noriega, so theon position wasn't bloody or deadly at that time. There was a lot of newspapers, and they were angry feelings and a lot of worry about the direction Panama was taking.

00:54:54.940 - 00:55:17.780

But people on both sides of the spectrum are all seven sides of the spectrum could sit down and talk together, and Panama's interests at that time mhm it was such a there was so much coming out against the treaty in the United States, but from the United States, but some of it originating here that they really thought it would be nice to have some people have thought of his leaders in the Canal Zone.

00:55:17.790 - 00:55:45.150

Come in on that side. Essentially did. I didn't do anything. I just wanted to What were your impressions of Noriega? Well, I shook his hand three times. I've not been able to feel anything since Noriega was evil, probably. No, there's some very bad things done. Three.

00:55:45.150 - 00:56:01.310

Colonel is winning power because there was a lot of opposition to that and some of the video that you saw, I don't know. You saw that we were looking at yesterday. That I put together is finally after operation just cause they're able to dig up the graves.

00:56:01.320 - 00:56:19.820

Students that disappeared in other people disappear that could be identified. So my own opinion is more people were killed under Tory host in under Noriega. But I don't know that that's true. That's I'm on the contrary. And in that regard. Okay, Uh, but it was an evil man and he had a technique.

00:56:19.890 - 00:56:36.550

It's almost inborn of reading people knowing what their weaknesses were. And he had he had, like, a resort hotel that cater to anybody's weaknesses. You like little boys? There'd be little boys if you liked whores. You could get a whore if you want to get on cocaine.

00:56:36.550 - 00:56:57.040

There'd be cocaine on while this was happening. Pictures were being taken archive that could be used later to get rid of you. It was interesting. We went some of those South Carolina. We lived with Charleston for a while, and I bought a car from an ex colonel who had been involved in that and almost lost his career over.

00:56:57.050 - 00:57:13.360

Hey, didn't ever tell me exactly what happened. But anyway, he got involved in order to get this way down here is a colonel almost destroyed his career because if Noriega didn't get what if you wanted something and approached you on, he didn't get it cause you a lot of trouble.

00:57:13.930 - 00:57:48.060

Mhm. Uh, he was Well, Lila's Lila's Lila's colleague. Why don't you tell about Kerala and Noriega and his relationship with the troops and on the officers? Well, I do folklore in him Long and one of my colleagues is Cordelia Hassan, Your anything her husband was a captain in the military, and her brother was one of the very high kernels working with Noriega.

00:57:48.930 - 00:58:22.810

And it was just like the General. Like the general staff he was. He was half of half a dozen main guys. Colonel Hassan. Colonel Hassan was, you know, just a happy just doing his job. But apparently do Kerala. He was just swept in to Noriega's, uh, command because Noriega was able and would offer them, they would just offer them in this hotel.

00:58:22.810 - 00:58:50.770

They would offer the women they would booze. I mean, whatever they wanted, he just and he himself, I think personally had a certain charisma among his officers and that he was they were just, you know, they smoothed and pulled in to be very faithful. And then they were very afraid of because the newest techniques they knew what he was doing, and it could happen to them.

00:58:50.780 - 00:59:17.990

So loyalty that was fortuitous in the beginning then became mandatory. If you wanted to save your life, it's easier to mount the tiger than to get off. But this spilled over into the child of a corporal. We're really second in the hospital. Something from Noriega would show up or even Nordea himself.

00:59:17.990 - 00:59:40.110

So he extended himself for the soldiers and for the officers kindly supporting Well, too, in the true Potro, no system that is known in Panama on. So he did become also as well as evil. He also became became the Patroon. Yeah, I had a certain charisma.

00:59:40.120 - 00:59:58.720

Yeah, and under the paternal system is again. The Pan works for the, you know, But he also gives him the birthday party. It gives him all of the Catholic type of thing. He pays for the marriages. He you know, the Petronas, the one that really supports.

00:59:58.720 - 01:00:27.120

In times of celebrations, there has to be some kind of reciprocal. That's right. Yeah, there's a possibility of came out of Spain, and it's universal. Okay, if trouble happens on shit, falls on the household with Children, shows up with a shovel. So there were There was a perception that, at least in the beginning, that the U.

01:00:27.120 - 01:00:54.410

S. Either tolerated or even openly supported Noriega. Was that? Did you see that? He worked for the CIA, and I can't answer that question. Uh, I say that's a perception. Although I do know that, uh, yeah, president of Panama. I'm going. Going on proceeding, Noriega? Uh, no, not either.

01:00:54.420 - 01:01:15.520

That was still that was still true, I guess. Lock us. I'm not gonna go there because I'm not very sure of my data. But at any rate, the thought was that through the mill group in Panama, these were military folks attached to the embassy working with the Panamanian army That there were.

01:01:15.910 - 01:01:32.320

There were guns and other supplies going in out of the back door of the embassy to Noriega, literally up until the time that the war started. So we had a little trouble with the right hand, not knowing what the left hand was doing as well. This'll I really know.

01:01:32.310 - 01:01:55.740

Don't you think also, though, that you have to look at Noriega? I'm not Noriega, but Doritos in the light of arias I knew of so And you have to know the history of our beautiful what a dictator he was. What an autocrat he was. He was, wasn't he?

01:01:55.750 - 01:02:14.350

For Germany during the Second World? Yeah, he was. But you need to We need to go back further because he got a scholarship to go to Germany to study neurosurgery. Uh, huh? In the early 19 thirties, and he did his. He did his residency in neurosurgery in Germany in the thirties, had gone to medical school at Harvard.

01:02:14.350 - 01:02:31.190

So he clearly wasn't an idiot and came back to the United States and started the Pentagon east of party and made a symbol with lightning bolt. It was yellow on a purple background. You may still see some, and there are no fiestas are still a powerful party.

01:02:31.200 - 01:02:49.830

But then he organized his party really very much on a fascist level on. He was very close, personally to the German ambassador to Panama and the Japanese ambassador to Panama. There was a lot of there was a lot of tic tac toe going on in 1940 1941.

01:02:49.900 - 01:03:13.200

One of the Ticktock toes is that Lloyd Area, which is a German German airline, was building on airline on airport in the jungle in Colombia, within 150 miles of Panama. And they were bringing in hankel one tens, which is a bomber, and they were calling them fast mail planes on.

01:03:13.400 - 01:03:32.510

Uh, Franklin Roosevelt pushed and paid for Colombia to take this over. That became a Bianca which to this day is is really probably probably Latin America is best airline. I'll Bianca on we through our nouveau out at that time because I don't know, I don't know.

01:03:32.510 - 01:03:49.130

The details of value was kicked out, but it was thrown out three times twice by the United States. And that's why when I said, I can't believe that the Colonel's would throw our nouveau out without some connivance from Quarry Heights, which was high command for the military here.

01:03:50.500 - 01:04:09.510

And so even though you have two bad peas in the pod, which is the worst p that you go out and I think that was, I'm just guessing. But that was the U. S. Dilemma at that time when the three kernels came to power and the U.

01:04:09.510 - 01:04:35.480

S. Saw we better back the Colonel's rather than are well, there was a house of between three colonels. At that time, Noriega was in the middle group for the Panamanians in Mexico. No, Tory Oh, said Khan to Mexico, and Noriega was in charge of the area up by the Costa Rican border when tornadoes came back and came to Panama through San Jose, Costa Rica, and then they started a march down.

01:04:35.480 - 01:04:56.390

The estimates sort of like Mussolini marching in twenties on Rome and they picked up people is they came along and there would have been no Tory hose without Noriega, which was probably why, uh, Qods was so faithful. But I don't I'm afraid I don't see a connection philosophically between between our new phone on Total USA.

01:04:56.390 - 01:05:20.510

If there's a connection, that would be a much closer. Now. I was talking about from the American perspective. Yeah, from the American perspective. If you had Theo elected president in Panama, who was our beautiful blonde knowing the history of our group when he was a little crazy and then these kernels coming to power, who would you choose to back?

01:05:21.290 - 01:05:45.380

And I think at that point way didn't have a choice but to go for the colonel's Yeah way had a choice. Way took the wrong choice personally, but there was less. That's my opinion. It's all it's all understandable. I mean, you know, anybody that thinks that the American government acts the same overseas, it doesn't home.

01:05:45.380 - 01:06:22.840

This is a fool. Well, on their and their the broader there's it isn't just Panama, isn't just the canal. It's the broader region hemisphere, and that was a lot of the reason for the treaty. Yeah, holding onto it tacos beat the hell out of us in terms of propaganda in terms of moving toward the treaty, had all of Latin America to talk about the famous to the North Shark and the sardines E would also like to see in terms of your experience in Canada was really with milk groups in other countries in Latin America.

01:06:22.850 - 01:06:48.640

And I think that was the entrance in terms of the U. S. Was very interested in south com hmm and what they were doing. And I can't tell you how many people we talked to that we're off to Peru. We're off to Argentina, were off. And, you know, we knew exactly what was happening with the South calm and their involvement all through South America.

01:06:48.640 - 01:07:08.640

So I think your comment was very important because of that time. It was not just a huge CIA center, a huge listening post, and they had have people that read newspapers from all of Latin America every day to find little bits of information. Seemed like there was one period of time.

01:07:08.640 - 01:07:25.080

Everybody we met turned out to be associated with CIA in some way, way what we were doing while I was doing folklore studies up. And she got a guy that she met George Archer, who was a good photographer and was set up to do photography and worked with him for a while.

01:07:25.080 - 01:07:41.980

And all of a sudden he and his wife just split, you know, they disappeared the to rent. Kids disappeared, and I we don't know where George when they but his wife, his wife, it turned out later I found out from other people, Was was with the agency.

01:07:43.680 - 01:08:06.610

So there was there was a lot going on. I think that's an interesting Yeah. We needed Arthur Miller to write a book about Panama, right? Yeah, it's interesting. Um, well, did you have? I know we've We've taken well over an hour already, and I know there's other activities that you probably wanna get.

01:08:06.610 - 01:08:36.730

Thio, Do you thinking back? Now, let me ask things. Question. Um how often do do the two of you go back to Panama on? I'll take a little time answering. Uh, life was pretty turbulent during the last years and right up through just cause. Yeah, way were I was on a hit list, carried a radio around for a year and a half two years.

01:08:36.820 - 01:09:01.050

A message came through Hammer blow. I was to get hold of Lila, and we were to go someplace where we've never been before. Where there was a telephone at a number to call and armored vehicle would pick us up and Way had big Ford sedans, was black and windows that would drive up in front of our house.

01:09:01.050 - 01:09:14.710

We lived next door to the head of the green girl, and he was also on that list on six guys with crew cuts. Muscles under tight T shirts would get up and go through some kind of exercise and get back in the car and drive away.

01:09:14.720 - 01:09:35.440

These were renovating. Part is, clearly you had had a right to be there because it was Panama. By that time, none of this really got through to me. I tolerated at all very well. But after it was over, when I watched the new government go into Panama on, Dara got married to a Chinese chippy.

01:09:35.440 - 01:09:57.410

Then he decided to haul into the to the cathedral and he lived in the cathedral. But for a month or six weeks, just some kind of some kind of crazy business. They were fighting like cats and dogs to people that I had pushed Panamanians for higher positions like bureau directors got caught for acting like Panamanians with contracts.

01:09:57.410 - 01:10:23.510

One of them, for example, there were for this cut widening thing that's going on right now that started actually in 19. About that started in about 1990 as a matter of fact, and there were there were 27 separate contracts involved, and he was either a part owner or on the board of directors or some way associated with 17 of the 27 on was asked to leave.

01:10:23.520 - 01:10:42.740

That's okay in Panama, but it wasn't. I'm not quite sure why this bothered me. My friends used to say, We'll just let Panama, Panama forget about it. I was not really able to do that. I was quite. I was quite angry when it was over and we didn't come back for like, I guess I came back for some depositions later.

01:10:42.750 - 01:11:01.750

But besides that, we didn't come back for quite a long time now, we way later. We bought for 10 years a timeshare so that we have way Haven't apartment in court. What was Cory hides for three weeks? That is in January and February, which is the early dry season.

01:11:01.750 - 01:11:26.440

Best part on we come down every year for that mile us back into a folklore again and our contact with friends. And we've enjoyed that, but oh, I was quite better when I left in 1994. It was e could have stayed longer. And I have no interest in doing so on the part that got me is, I guess I expected more of the Panamanians.

01:11:26.440 - 01:11:51.070

And I thought that I saw the Panamanian did in the U. S. Dead from chest called the zero Better out of Panama when we were getting mhm, did you? Now, when you talk to other folks in the re union, do you find yourself um what? What do you talk about?

01:11:52.620 - 01:12:13.150

Oh, that this reunion. I talk about old days or playing tennis together, swimming or mutual friends or time we've spent together, I'm going to talk about I'm going to talk about the canal. It would be with a few people that I would talk to. I think you were there when Rich Wynia was talking yesterday.

01:12:13.150 - 01:12:37.000

He's the one that maybe not. Okay, it was The other guy was there. He's now He's the head of the port Tampa Hey was the chief economist for the Panama Canal. It e and E. I would talk to him. I go back and I talked to some of my good friends in Panama who were people that I talked to a lot when I lived there so that there would be people that I trust.

01:12:37.000 - 01:12:55.490

But aside from that, I don't talk about open canal days. I will say it because everybody expected Panama toe screw it up in three years when the turnover came occasionally remind people that didn't feel about peaking. But that's about the end of what I'm talking about.

01:12:56.170 - 01:13:17.320

I'd like to go back to the whole feeling in the canal zone because they're not very many places in a Tropic Goal lush environment that you could go to the beach within an hour, hour and a half. If you were hunting, you could go down to the dark.

01:13:17.330 - 01:13:38.290

You could go hunting if you were birder. You just go a half an hour up to Gamboa and go on Pipeline Road and you see some of the most beautiful birds in the world. If you like scuba, you could go over to the Caribbean and in that regard, fishing out in the baby Some of the best fishing in the world.

01:13:38.300 - 01:14:10.260

People, even the blue collar workers, they could afford a boat and things were kept. I don't think artificially cheap, but it was a time in which everybody could afford to do anything like that that they wanted to dio let me interject that z another area where what people got was squished so that it was not expensive to have your vote at the Yacht Club Yacht Club was built by pension people off duty.

01:14:10.940 - 01:14:55.770

And if you had a little boat, you could afford to have it out there as soon as the treaty occurred. That was gone. If you didn't, you had to be very wealthy all of a sudden because the yacht club turned to Panamanian Panamanians or like it would be in the United States, mostly s 01 of the divers involved in education and one of the things that was very evident to the counselors at the secondary school was that Panama was so seductive in its lifestyle for people growing up in Panama that, uh, kids graduated from the high school.

01:14:56.740 - 01:15:19.800

They wanted to stay there on. They would do anything that they could. They would take a mediocre job in order to stay in Panama because the lifestyle was so beautiful and in fact, dick with our own kids. We went to Panama thinking that we would travel internationally with the kids on our vacation.

01:15:19.890 - 01:15:49.440

And then one day I came home and said, You know what? We got to get our kids back to the States because what he was finding his interviews with adolescents in the adolescent clinic, the same mentality of wanting to stay here and of being what they call this third world of kids growing up in a and the military outside of the United States, not really feeling comfortable is being citizens.

01:15:49.450 - 01:16:12.340

So probably when the kids were about eight something like that, we every year we either sent them back with relatives to the States, or we took all of vacations back to the United States States. Can we begin to talk about. You're gonna go to the college, United States.

01:16:12.340 - 01:16:38.110

This is where you're going to study. We began a really brainwashing eso that there would be no, um no alternatives for them to want to stay in Panama at that time and to have their higher education in the United Way came back in 1970. It was clear that days of the canal zone number, that's before all this treaty stuff even started that much.

01:16:38.120 - 01:17:17.080

But it was clear Mhm. So you wanted to make sure that your kids will be able to adapt to life outside. Yeah, but not everyone probably shared that belief, right? I mean, in terms of child rearing at the time, I think a lot of people just had their Children here and when when they got out of high school, he said, It's time to go to the States or whatever happened, Uh, I don't like to set up the difference between you know, people that have a lot of college education and blue collar folks, but there is There wasn't quite as much forward about that.

01:17:17.370 - 01:17:33.860

But there were a lot of kids that stayed here no matter what. They're still here, Just anything in Panama. Get by, some of them done fairly well. Uh, if you're going to do that, you should go back and get a skill needed in Panama, then come back.

01:17:34.430 - 01:17:54.760

That makes some sense, but otherwise, But in terms of the whole feeling of the canal zone and the comfort and just the beauty and just it was easy. It was a great life. And I think that what you talked about earlier in terms of people looking back on that most people feel like Wow.

01:17:55.000 - 01:18:15.460

And they did have something very special. There was there was something very unique. But that's what makes it's not feeling that keeps this Panama Canal society going. First of all, we went, we were in our 30 or we're both about 29 or 30 way Yeah, yes, sir.

01:18:15.810 - 01:18:23.070

Editor's note. At this point, there's an interruption in the interview, and it concludes without further information