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Thank you. The following interview is being conducted, uh, with Mr Lancelot Llewellyn on behalf of the Panama Canal of the Pan Pan Caribbean Sankofa and the Panama Canal Museum Collection at the University of Florida. Today's date is July 25th, 2020. The interview is being conducted and Miami, Florida and the interviewer is Michelle Badly Lee.

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And she is in New Jersey. Uh, thank you. And, uh, let's make this fun and enjoyable and enlightening. Um, I'll pass it over to Michelle. Good morning. Good morning. Okay. Morning, Michelle. Are you? Thank you for taking the time. Um So, tell me, can you first?

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Can you tell me your name and where you were born? Sure. You want my full name as as listed on my birth certificate? Yeah. Let's start with that. Yeah. You ready? Yes, sir. Lancelot. L A N c e l o t. Okay. Middle name Lauriston. L a u r i s t o n last name Llewellyn.

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L E w e l y n suffix junior. Okay. Born September 29th 1953 Canal zone and Con Vargas Hospital. Yeah. Uh huh. So I have a question. I know a lot of the folks on here may know, um, about they call you Bush. I heard your nickname is Bush, but I would love to know.

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How did you get the name Lansana? Is there a story? Um, is there a history behind your name? Well, and of course, I don't know how you got Butch. Okay, I'll give you both both answers. And Lancelot? I'm Junior, Of course, as you know. And so my dad named me after himself.

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I had no opportunity to ask my grandfather why he selected that name. And my my, uh, name comes from, uh, it's a Welsh. It's a Welsh turning Llewellyn is a watch turning. So, uh, if I have to venture a guess, I would say that my grandfather was probably very fond of the of the the British.

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Um, um, fabled with King Arthur. And like the name Lancelot. So he probably selected that I would have to venture that, as I guess. I Like I said, I don't have any concrete information as to why he did that. And so I I was junior like that.

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Obviously you like the name, So he gave it to me as Well, And Butch, the nickname Butch I got from my godfather. His name was you go read. Um uh, I was a little bit of a rough, uh, baby. So? So he rough rough, even on myself.

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So he dubbed me Butch. And when When I was when I was very, very, you know, that's not carry that nickname all the way through. And now I'm called Lance as a nickname. Um, here in the United States, they abbreviate everything. Um, So if I hear somebody call out to me as Butch, I know that it's someone from my past.

00:04:09.540 - 00:04:34.350

Yeah, No wonder you. So, Lancelot, are you okay with me calling you Lance during this interview? Anything you want except for okay, share me. Can you tell me a little bit about your family's history where they came from when they came to Panama, where they came from originally?

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Okay, well, my my dad and my mom were both born in Panama. My dad was born in cologne. My mom was born in panel. Um, my grandfather from my father's side. He was from Jamaica and he immigrated to Panama. I don't know when, Like I said, I don't know too much about him.

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Uh, he married my grandmother, who was from Haiti. Um, I don't know too much about her either, because she died shortly after my father was born and she, uh he went to Jamaica to be to stay with his art. And that's where he was educated. And then shortly after that, when when he was he was a man, he went back to Panama and started to work for the Panama Canal Company in my on my mother's side.

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Uh, my grandfather was from ST Lucia. His name is Flores. Meaning, And he was born, I think, in 18 99 he lived to a ripe old age of almost 99 years. And he was, uh, Carpenter for the Panama Canal Company retired and lived in Panama until his late eighties, when he moved to New York.

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Um, to be, which is his? It's, um, his family the most most most of his family were, and my grandmother on my mother's side. Her name is Elena Mena. She was from the island of said, um Karen the Allen. We'll come back to me anyway. She she was San Andres.

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San Andres is a Colombian island. It's a Colombian possession. It sits off the coast of Nicaragua. Um, and she was from San Andres. I'm not sure when she immigrated to, um to Panama, but she lived in Colon. She was well known for her. Where? Culinary expertise.

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She she was, uh, Navid Baker. They knew her in Colon as Messalina. And yeah, she met my grandfather. I don't know when but dispatched him shortly after my mom was born because he he was a ladies' man. Um, uh huh. So she wasn't having any of that anyway, She she lived with my mom by herself and until my dad came along scene and then they got married.

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Yeah. Mm hmm. You mentioned, um, Did your dad worked on the canal zone? Yes. He worked on the canal zone. He was supervisor in the commissary. Uh, emissary divisions and supply division. They used to call it a commissary. Sections. He worked in both the Atlantic and the Pacific side as a supervisor for the clubhouse and supervisor for the commissary activities.

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So when you your youngest days, you remember? Where did you live? Where did the family live when you were first born? Okay, um uh, when I was born, we were living in the town of la Boca La Boca is a town just, um, on the Pacific side of the isthmus.

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Oh, and it's it's basically, uh, at the at the southern approach to the canal. La Boca was a town that the West Indian communities lived in in the early early of fifties late forties. And, um, the buildings there were large, um, large wooden buildings. They used to call him tenement buildings.

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Multiple multiple families would live on those buildings, so we lived there. Like I said, I was born in 53. Then I have an older sister that was born in 51. She was the first of bus. I'm not sure when my parents we're living there. When my dad was working for the clubhouse there, working at the club house there and shortly after libraries, probably in about four years after that, we moved to Paris.

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Oh, which is a little further north of la Boca. Um and that is the reason that we were moved or removed is because La Boca was was going to be rebuilt for the the United States citizens, um within the within the Panama Canal Zone. So they level those those structures and they moved us to paradise.

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Um, Paradiso, the buildings in Paris so were basically laid out for for for and enlisted, enlisted and commission officers in the United States military way back before they moved the Palestinian communities into Paris. So Parisot had also some some tenement buildings, and, uh, they also had some concrete structures that were laid out and built pretty much like some of those that we would see in any typical United States base where structures were built for their for their for their personnel.

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Yeah, to live mhm. And it was concrete structures. The it was two families first structure. There was a one advising wall, and there were depending on the size. You had a couple of rooms or three rooms for for structure and not very large rooms. But those are recommendations that we had at that time.

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So we lived in Paris. So from the fifties until, um, around the mid the mid sixties, yeah, Then from there we moved to Pedro Miguel, which was another, and another development that the United States government built for the West Indian communities. They coined the term for us Latin American communities.

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I can't remember exactly when. But, you know, we were considered Latin American communities whether regardless of the are terrorist descent Uh um from Pedro. Miguel, I lived. Um, I can't remember the name of the or a the number of the building, but from there we moved to another structure in federal Miguel.

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I remember that number, which is 92 20 and sat on 20 that street, and that was slightly larger. Um, structure again. It was for two families. However, this was a little more modern. Lee constructed. They had a car carport for the cars. And that's what separated the the the families instead of instead of being separated by a common wall in a building.

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Um, there I lived until I I decided to take the hand of my wife, get married and and moved to the Republic of Panama in the city, Um, back in 1976. So that's about the trajectory of of of, you know, my my my time on his own and where I lived.

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I don't know if you have any other questions on that. So I'm gonna take you back a little bit, too, when you were younger and you lived a la Boca and moving into Paris. So can you give us a little, um, like, uh, tell us a little bit about what it was like living in those communities.

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What school was like? There was some of your activities. How many? How many people were in your family? How many sisters? Brothers. I have one elder sister. Her name is Leela. A younger brother. His name is Ricardo. And then, uh, younger than Ricardo, twin brother and sister Carl and Carla.

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And in 19 fifties, uh, I didn't go outside much. That was a was a toddler. Um, as much as they crack, I probably wanted to. They didn't let me. Uh, so a lot of my playing was done indoors. The very cramped quarters that we had, and, um, I paid with my brothers and sisters in indoors when we moved to Paris.

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So, uh, I was a little older and allowed to basically go outside and roam. I played with the neighbors. I was a very avid, basically raider. I love riding bicycle. So, um, upon getting a gift of a bicycle for one Christmas. I can't remember which one.

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I stayed on that thing from dawn to dusk. Shit. We I was all over the place on my bike. And when I moved to Pedro Miguel, it was It was a continuation of that. I was always on my bike. I would ride from Pedro Miguel to Parisot, Parisot and Pedro.

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Miguel said about a mile and a half apart from each other. And, uh, we had friends in both both neighborhoods. So, you know, uh, you know, that's that's that was my playtime on my bicycle. Yeah, buddy. Mhm. What about school? Where did you go to school?

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Okay, I went to school at Paris Elementary School again. This was these are schools that were set up for the Latin American communities. Very interesting way how the United States Government, um, decided to to set us up basically to perpetuate, um, segregation. And if I got if I got to go there, which there is no way around it, um, the United States had two sets of, uh of school systems.

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Juan was the united US school system, and the other one was the Latin American school system. Anyone of other than the United States. Descent, um, are United States citizenry, um, went to the Latin American schools Whether you were born in Panama and you are you were you were not born in Panama, but your parents worked for the Panama Canal Company, and they were what they called in those days, which was basically a slightly better.

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Um, there are connotation of the of the of the discriminatory pay system. They call it the local local higher. So if you were a local hire, you were not of the United States descent or United States citizenship, and you lived in a Latin American community. So you went to the Latin American schools.

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So my my schools history I went to Paris. So elementary school, we were taught there by fellow and Hispanic and West Indian teachers. All of our teachers were with Palestinian and Hispanic descent. Yeah, and, um, the school system was set up where the books and and curriculum that was taught to us was they were totally different from the United States curriculum and books and school system.

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We, um we learned from teachers that were we're basically bilingual, and so we started to become bilingual And regardless of what we spoke at home, we ended up all knowing and learning Spanish, which, uh, was was the silver lining of of that of that particular you know, system of education, I would say.

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And so, from Paris to elementary school, I went to Paris. Oh, junior senior high School. But I saw junior senior high school. It was basically a continuation of the same type of education system we we were taught by. Bye Palestinian, uh, descendant teachers. And one very interesting fact is that we were taught in in Spanish a majority of our of our of our of our subjects, um 1999% of our subjects were taught in Spanish.

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However, the text books were all in English so that we we had to be translating continuously. Or the teacher for teacher had to be translating continuously from English to Spanish as far as the different, uh, different, uh, subjects that they were going to be teaching us.

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Why? Because the books that the canal zone government got for us we're English books, and, uh, it gravitated to where some of the subjects we were able to get books in Spanish and the classes, We're able to flow better in Spanish. And now, of course, our English class will start in English from English textbooks.

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They couldn't get around that, um, nonetheless, uh, subjects like chemistry, Which, uh, I I ended up expelling him, okay. And were they were taught in in, uh, in and okay, Spanish using English textbooks. It may be a little difficult for us because, you know, terms chemical terms, like, you know, the different types of chemicals that that, uh, the name, the name of the chemical was different in Spanish than it was in English.

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As far as how you how you basically articulated it. So we have to learn that well, and it was a challenge. It was a real challenge for us. And however, you know, we we were able to overcome that challenge as well as we overcame several other challenges that were, and our obstacles.

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If you want to call it that that were placed in our way and and some of us were able to most certainly, um uh, exhale in in that in that school system, the school, the books that were used, we're textbooks that were not necessarily the latest editions.

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The latest edition of those textbooks were given to the U. S. School system. We would have maybe the fifth edition while they had the ninth edition. And so that basically kept us a little behind the eight ball. As far as as the the curriculum that the United States citizen, um, are United States school system I was able to provide for their there are students.

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Lance at home. What did your family speak English? Spanish Bull. We spoke English at home. English was our language that we spoke and both my parents mom more than my dad spoke a little bit of Spanish. My mom was became more fluent in Spanish, as as time went on, my grandmother didn't speak a lick of Spanish.

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She spoke is English, Um, but English was the language that we spoke about in school, and, um, among your peers when you were in school, did you feel the difference of, um being being giving the different textbooks through the education through the living arrangements? How did it feel to to be a West Indian living in a zone?

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Um, during that school, your school time, your school years? Well, funny you should ask, because the class of 1972 is the class that was that made the United States Canal made the Canal zone government aware of the fact that we were dissatisfied with the education system that was provided to us.

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We staged, uh, basically a walkout, and we we hearted the the school activities for a day or two. Remember? Maybe it was to be, Anyway, we we we understood that our our curriculum, it was way different than the curriculum that was offered. So the U. S.

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School system and we realized that we were at a loss, and not only because of what was happening to us, but because of what happened to two, two classes before us. They, some of them went to to college, um, and struggle a little bit more than they would have if they had a curriculum that was more in line with the times.

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Um, so we stage woke up and basically told the the the Canal Zone schools superintendent and that we weren't going back into class policy came and spoke with us. Well, of course, you know, that didn't happen. But but it was an unprecedented, uh instance, in the Canal Zone history where the the West Indian community, the Children of the West Indian community, rebelled against the the administration.

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And it got so bad that some of our parents were threatened with their jobs. Um, being called by the upper management advising that their kids need to go back into school for their jobs would be in serious jeopardy. My family was one, uh, particular did that to me, and he told me, uh, you go ahead and do what?

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What you think you need to do because we understand what it is you guys are trying to do and you don't worry about about us? Um, we will be all right. Uh, the the the canal Zone school superintendent promised to hear us out if we would go back into class.

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Yeah, this was back in the sixties and the very late sixties, early seventies, when early seventies, actually, when Black Power and the Black Panthers here in the United States was an issue for the government, they were very much afraid of the black movement, and and so we tried to make certain that we not end up getting, uh, well, then to being looked at as a black movement.

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Um uh, type of activity because of the way how that movement here in the United States was met was met with significant force because they were afraid, Of course. So we try to make sure that we steered clear of showing any signs of black power or anything like that.

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Or of course, in those days all of us had Afros couldn't get around from from looking looking, uh, looking like like, like, you know, like, uh, someone from African descent. Uh, yours truly supported an Afro You can't tell from from my current hairstyle, But I did sweat on Afro pretty much something like what Alex has right now, but a few inches higher.

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If you look at Alex and put our futures in this here, that's what I had, Uh, congratulations to you. Like you can still grow enough. Yeah. Anyway, um, So we tried our best to make certain that we steered clear of having having anything closely resembling, uh, a black uprising movement.

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And uh huh. Upon graduation, uh, 1972 from the from the when we all graduated. Like I said, since that class was renowned for, for for a walk out earlier in in the year, and we opted. So whenever they were going to call us up for our diploma and we have to go, uh, the hand of the same superintendent that was that was going to be offered to us in congratulations of of us achieving our goal of achieving our diploma, we opted to not shake his hand.

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So not one of us shook his hand because he never came to see us. So, you know, if he didn't have any interest in us, we had no interest in showing any type of of, um and gratitude for for him giving us a diploma. And so that was one of the I'd say that that's that's a historic event in the in the Latin American school system that that we we manage two, two have happened.

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I'm sure when you interview other other other folks from the graduation graduating class, you know, and you will be able to get maybe a little more anecdotal history of what happened during those times. Yeah, there are few names that that I can think of that that could probably give you a little more a little more little more history.

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And you know, I can I can jot those down and send them to you. Okay. Going back just a little about the experiences of your dad on on the zone. Um, did you grow up hearing his experiences, his stories, And how were yours? Similar or different?

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And your experiences, particularly with the Americans. White Americans? Well, um, like I said, the canal zone was very segregated, and we we we were placed in our own community. We We went to a commissary that had goods for us. We weren't allowed to go to the commissary or what The commissary was supermarket Our our department store in the in the in the united, in the U.

00:32:32.550 - 00:33:44.670

S. Citizen um U s citizen Communities. My dad was a supervisor in the, um, commissary and supply division stores of of the for the Latin American communities. Um, our western in communities. And he he struggled because, um, he was educated in Jamaica. He and he was he was, um, educated with with a British system that was in place in Jamaica and upon coming to Panama are getting to Panama, and he started to work was as an assistant to one of the the white, um, the way supervisors there, which ironical his name was Mr Black.

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Um, go figure. Anyway, um, he was There was one instance where Mr Black wanted him to make some entries in the ledger and he told him that's not how it's done. You can't make those entries because it would. It wouldn't be representative of Of what of of, uh, what transpired.

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And, uh, and it's not gonna It's not gonna They won't They won't balance the books don't balance. So he said, Well, I want I want it done that way. And he said to him, Well, you know, I don't know what school you went to, but it's cool that I went to, uh taught us to do it in this fashion and as the proper fashion.

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Well, that got him blackballed. So he and in and as promotions go, you know, he would be passed over for several years until the the um mm, the seventies early seventies, when he was recognized for his his his his knowledge of the system and his knowledge of how things were supposed to transpire as a supervisor and uh, and was able to get promotions going forward.

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So his promotions were very late in coming, but, you know, he got them. Nonetheless, he had and ironically, it was at the at the hands of, uh, of, uh, Italian American who recognized his merit and pushed for him to be to be, um, to deal promoted and, uh uh, ultimately and be able to to retire with a more elevated pay status as far as myself.

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Um, when I when I graduated, I went to the canals on college, going back a little further before I went to college. Like I said, I graduated from the Paris. So junior senior high school and my my dream was to to become a doctor. Um, and I love chemistry.

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The chemistry I knew when I was in Paris, so high school. So I I figured Okay, I'll go to college and start. Start that. And I figured, um, I would want to become a doctor in pathology. So which meant even more chemistry. Well, um, I went to high school.

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I went to the college and yeah, and found severe frustration in trying to navigate the chemistry class that they had and that was chemistry one on one. So that's how severely and severely behind the curve we were. Ironically, we got an audience with the school superintendent after graduation.

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Of course, we're out of the way. So so you know, they pull a handful of us and they took us up to the the administration building, the building where the governor said, and we had an audience with the governor and his staff, and I was able to tell them as well as a couple other guys, Some of them are not with us anymore, were there and they were able to tell them, Listen, you know, we were severely disadvantaged by the the school system that we had to go to, and I was able to articulate my frustration with chemistry.

00:37:59.330 - 00:38:33.040

I told him I graduated with honors in chemistry from high school, but I was barely making the cut in college and and you know that that was that was a severe disservice to us if it is that they were looking for us to be able to continue working in the Canal Zone, doing jobs that but would would become open when when we when we were able when we're fully educated.

00:38:34.320 - 00:39:10.140

Um, they listen, um, they had no other recourse. But as one of my classmates would be able to tell you he was there, um, the black bug, some of us because we had to, of course, give our names and so forth. So some of us were not able to get jobs in the canal zone in the Canal Zone government for Panama Canal Company because of our our tendency to be to be radical.

00:39:10.920 - 00:39:48.480

So, um, I continued in college then in 1973 about a year after I went into college. Um, I, uh, was able to and who to enter the apprenticeship program. Um, in the canal zone. The apprenticeship program is basically a program where you learn a trade. So, uh, for four years and there is there is a there.

00:39:48.490 - 00:40:09.870

There's also, uh, not only, uh, the manual portion of it, but there was also, um, portion where you had to actually and go through a curriculum. And there was subject matter that you have to study to be able to to make passing grades. To be able to get into their punishment program.

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You have to take a test, a civil service exam and passed with a certain amount of points, depending on the amount of points that you passed with and how many people they needed for that particular year. Then you would make the cook if you passed with anything from anything above 70.

00:40:30.310 - 00:40:54.640

Uh, and they needed. They needed, let's say, 100 people, which was never the case. Yeah, you stood a very good chance of being called. But if you if you if you if they need it. So let's say 30 people and you know, several people to test and you had folks scoring in the eighties or the nineties, then you know they would be called before you.

00:40:55.410 - 00:41:50.940

So I was called for an apprenticeship program and not with the Panama Canal Company because I was probably blackballed and didn't know it. But I was called for apprenticeship program with the With the Army 193rd Infantry Brigade, and the division that that I was would would have been worked and I worked with was a division of Housing and facilities engineering, and so I started my apprenticeship program in 1973 with them and working with the in the in the canal zone in, um, in the working for the for the for the armed forces government, our armed forces rather in the canal zone was a little different.

00:41:51.310 - 00:42:18.820

No, very much, but a little different than working for the Panama Canal Company. Panama Canal Company had a very a very, um, very entrenched and discriminatory practice with with the armed forces, it was a little different. It was still there, but it wasn't as as as prevalent.

00:42:19.400 - 00:42:48.540

And so, uh, and we're talking now about the seventies versus the fifties. Um, it was still local higher. Yeah, we the pay the pay scales were still different. So I was hired as a local hire apprentice, and, uh, I I was very, very, um, proud of my my salary.

00:42:48.550 - 00:43:10.030

At that time, it was $2.77 an hour that we started making spending money big money at that time. Uh, anyway, um, and every year thereafter, as you progressed, he didn't fail a year. And you, you would you would earn yourself an increase. I was able to graduate as a pipe fitter.

00:43:10.040 - 00:43:42.820

The apprenticeship that I was offered as a pipefitter apprentice, um, with the with the the 190 30 Infantry Brigade. The director of facilities, housing and Engineering, I graduated in 1977 throughout the year, The four years that I that I was an apprentice and I worked very closely with several other, um, folks of West Indian descent and of Hispanic descent.

00:43:43.500 - 00:44:12.610

Um, of course, my supervisors were U S citizens and the the the The interaction with them, I would say, was different, like I mentioned before than than it probably would have been had I been working on the kind of for the Panama Canal Company. At least that's the way I perceived it.

00:44:13.190 - 00:44:54.710

So, um, I didn't have any significant difficulties working with them or for them. Hey, I did what I had to do. I learned my trade, and I was able to graduate upon graduating. I worked, uh, for for for them until, uh, 1981. Okay. When I I went over and worked for the Navy as a planner, estimator in the plumbing and pipe fitting trade.

00:44:55.990 - 00:45:35.230

Um, I worked for the navy. Um, until no, I can't remember. Not to. 1980 80 late 1988 when I relocated to the United States, also with the Navy, uh, to Meridian Air Force Base, Mississippi, nonetheless, and talk about discrimination, uh, and worked there for about six months until I I, um I came over to to my came back to Miami.

00:45:35.240 - 00:46:02.430

My wife and kids were in Miami and then, um, uh, work for the air Force there for a while and then worked, then went over to work for them, for the Miami Dade County government retired in in January of this year. Congratulations. What a history. Um, and I'm gonna I'm going back a little bit.

00:46:02.440 - 00:46:20.960

I'd love to hear about your mom. Um, and her experience and, uh, what should stay at home? Mom, don't just say at home and took care of the kids. Tell me a little bit about your mom. Well, my mom was not a stay at home mom.

00:46:20.960 - 00:46:45.500

She went out to work as well. She worked as a clerk for the what was called non appropriated fund, um, facilities in in the in the military, uh, area of, uh, of the Panama Canal Zone. And that was that was an entity that basically was different.

00:46:45.880 - 00:47:23.790

and the Civil Service And, uh, the civil service type of of, um, agency that was available to employees. The non appropriated fund was one that it was It was not covered under civil service. You didn't earn a retirement, and, uh, it was basically, uh, in support of the military activities within the canal zone.

00:47:24.280 - 00:48:04.760

And there, there, there, there, commissary. There's their supply stores, their clubhouses, the bowling alleys. Um, the cafeterias, all of the workers there. We're not non appropriated fund workers or a FPs FPs. They would call it, um, army and Air Force Exchange system. Um uh, she worked as a clerk and her she worked in the Corozal.

00:48:04.810 - 00:48:25.700

I'm not No, I'm sorry. Not chorizo. She worked in the car and a cafeteria, which, you know, was consumed by a fire back in the sixties, and and so she would work in one area. My dad worked in another area. He would drop her off the work and then go on to work himself.

00:48:26.370 - 00:48:58.000

Or sometimes you get arrived from somebody that was would, uh, go in that direction. Um and we were cared for by my grandmother. Her mother. She stayed with us And she was the person who took care of us that while my parents were out to work, she upon their relocation from from, uh, Panama to the United States, 1979.

00:48:58.370 - 00:49:40.700

She continued to work for for the non appropriated fund activity in in California, uh, Presidio Army base until she she basically left retired from there, and And she's still alive and God, and she lives in California on wonderful, um, thinking about somebody growing up. So where there's certain activities or holiday certain customs that you remember that were special to you and the family?

00:49:41.170 - 00:50:00.690

Yes, Yes, absolutely. And growing up, I was a very active member of the International Boy Scouts of the Canal Zone. I don't know if you ever heard of them. Have you ever heard of Looks like the Boy Scouts here? Yeah. Yeah, pretty much like the Boy Scouts here, but different.

00:50:01.460 - 00:50:26.090

Okay, definitely different. Uh, anyone online has heard of the international boy Starts of the canal zone and anyone with us right now, Eddie. They are, of course. Of course. We were the only We were the only boy scouts without a country flags. Well, yes, yes, yes.

00:50:26.100 - 00:50:48.890

This this is gonna take me into into the third class, citizen. The thing that I wanted to talk about as far as Yes, there we go. Okay. Okay. So So I was very active in the scouts, and it was too, right. Uh, and and we we, um it was it was something that I was very passionate about.

00:50:49.460 - 00:51:22.080

I climbed the ranks in the in the in the system or within the within the, uh, within that activity. I became a neighborhood commissioner, and, uh, the the International Scouts of the Canal Zone was disbanded. Um, I would say, in the late seventies, early eighties, when the when the when the the the first part of the treaties took effect.

00:51:22.660 - 00:51:44.770

And, uh, but but I'm backing out, and they started to transition. And, uh, and some of the old timers, uh, left left the service and either relocated. The United States are or, you know, basically went into retirement and decided that, you know, they were going to lead a more sedentary life.

00:51:45.660 - 00:52:10.770

I happen to have You can't see it. What happened to have a letter from none other than Mr Raymond George, the scout executive of the of the International Boy Scouts of the Canal Zone and this letter, and I'm going to share this with you. Can I can scan it and send it to a five page letter?

00:52:11.350 - 00:52:39.260

It, uh it articulates the history of the of the of the Boy Scouts in the canal zone like it's the only. We were the only, um, were the only Boy Scouts without a flag with, uh and I assume it They're all west Indian descent black. Um, all of us were of western black, um, are Hispanic.

00:52:39.650 - 00:53:02.680

Um, but we lived in Panama. We lived in the Latin American communities of the of the Canal Zone. That was another discriminatory activity that they had. And, uh, this this letter It brought back a lot of memories to me because we have to fight long and hard, and some of it was before my time.

00:53:03.150 - 00:53:28.880

But it explains, it gives the history. It's basically it's a highlight of the history of the International Boy Scouts in the Canal Zone and explains how we came to be and why we were not part of the of the Boy Scouts of America and why we were not part of the Boy Scouts of Panama because the Boy Scouts of Panama had their own their own counsel.

00:53:29.450 - 00:53:58.680

We were We were similar but separate of, of of them both. We were our uniforms. Uniforms were we're basically designed for us bias. And it was it was close to the uniforms that the that they are they Yeah, Boy Scouts of America had, if you were a cop Scout.

00:53:59.050 - 00:54:22.760

But once you became a Boy Scout, the uniform changed, and it was closer to the uniform that the the the Scouts of Panama hat and we were differentiated by our scarf, which is a basically a triangular and triangular piece of cloth with different colors that you put around your neck.

00:54:23.340 - 00:54:49.020

And I you you that's that. That would identify you know your your troop basically, or you're not your true, but you're They would identify the the scouting activity that you came from, and then the patches, the patches that you wore on your shirt and on the sleeve identified your troop number and also the scouting entity that you represent.

00:54:49.020 - 00:55:15.260

It, um, a traveled with the International Boy Scouts of Panama, two companies or jamborees in the United States and in Central America. Um, like I said, it was a passion of mine. I I learned I learned a lot about their activities, which helped me through a formative years.

00:55:16.340 - 00:55:51.360

And And when and when I wasn't doing scouting, I was on my bike. You want to buy? Yes. And one of the other activities that I loved was was, you know, playing and recording music. I used to collect records. Uh huh. Regard them and I'll be on my bike with with if you can imagine this with a big old tape recorder listening to music while I was while I was right.

00:55:52.240 - 00:56:15.160

Uh huh. So that that was that was some of the activities that I enjoyed. And I had I had friends where we would we would sometimes play a little bit of baseball. Um, and I played a little bit of football. Also, not American football or soccer as a doctor.

00:56:16.130 - 00:56:44.650

So, um, hit American football anyway, uh, that's another conversation. Uh, okay, uh, for the Boy scouts. What? How did that do you know quickly. How did that form? Um how did I start that that particular truth in the canal and how was how were you treated or accepted by the larger community when you came to the jamborees?

00:56:45.730 - 00:57:26.670

Well, um, we were well, except because at a jamboree, you had scouts from all over the world. So scouting wasn't something that where they showed discrimination. Um, are they were showing it. It was it wasn't Wasn't very evident once you came to the jamborees. Yeah. We We interacted with scouts from all over the world, from From Europe, from Africa, from China, from different states of the United States, from different countries.

00:57:26.670 - 00:58:06.330

Here in, uh, in, uh, in Central and South America, Um, including the scouts from from Panama. Now, this was when we went to the jamborees. When we were here in Panama, the discrimination was evident. Um, as as, uh, as things go and as as us being 2nd, 3rd class citizens say that because the Panama the scouts of Panama, the Panamanian boys called Panama Boy Scouts of Panama look at us differently.

00:58:06.920 - 00:58:43.830

Take, um, not necessarily solely because of the color of our skin, but at times because of the fact that they called us. The privilege here goes, meaning the privileged. Um And they were They were not, um we're not very receptive to us because we were a group of people who, even though we were, we were who were second class citizens in the United in the canal zone.

00:58:44.520 - 00:59:11.330

And, uh, they they didn't recognize us as as part of of them as part of Panama. So there was some struggles as far as that was concerned. However, in scouting and you're you have a tendency of not looking at that. And it's a brotherhood type of activity.

00:59:11.720 - 00:59:44.700

So, you know, you put that to one side and basically do what you need to do with with the group to be able to achieve a common goal. So, um but But it was there, you could you could feel it. It wasn't It wasn't as as, um as and blatant as as as one would would think at times.

00:59:44.700 - 01:00:07.930

But you could feel it, uh, as far as interacting with the Boy Scouts of America, um, we would we would have activities with them as well. Um, however it was it was very noticeable that we were different scouts because we had on different uniforms than they did.

01:00:08.910 - 01:00:38.760

So as as as, um, we would have to identify ourselves. It was obvious that we wasn't. We were not, uh, part of our contingent of the Boy Scouts of America. Um, but even so, uh, scouting goals as a community, we we we did excel are in their scout, executive and Commissioner Scott Executive.

01:00:38.760 - 01:01:07.430

Mr. Raymond George and Commissioner, Mr I have an everything, Um uh, those are two names that come to come to come to nine. Another one on the on the Atlantic side. Mr. Leonard Foster. He was an assistant scout executive, and and there was a Mr Stanley who was also, uh, commissioner on the Atlantic side.

01:01:08.710 - 01:01:33.230

Um, you know, they they were able to attend scouting activities that that that represented scouts from all over the world are representing scouting all over the world. The scouting started in in in England. It was scouting wasn't an activity that started here in the United States.

01:01:33.610 - 01:02:04.920

Scouting started in England with a gentleman by the name of Lord Baden Powell. And it was it was through us knowing the history of scouting that we were able two to basically and get ourselves identified. Recognized as an actor, as a scouting activity as a scouting Council within, within the scouting system or within within scouting worldwide.

01:02:05.600 - 01:02:44.700

And this this document that I just showed you it goes through basically, um, all of this all of the steps that we have to take to be able to become recognized as a as a as a scouting activity. So I'm very proud of what we were able to manage and even reading this, you know, it it, um sometimes it brings tears to my eyes because I realized how much of a struggle we had and how much of a struggle, Mr George.

01:02:44.700 - 01:03:05.240

And and these are the guys that so So you have, you know, and I'll share this with you. Please do. What a powerful legacy to make that impact there. Um, speaking of the attention, um, on the zone between the West Indians and Americans. Sorry. Did you also feel tension?

01:03:05.250 - 01:03:32.720

Um, with those West Indians, maybe who did not live on his own, or those Panamanians who were who also lived in the city or in other places on Panama? Did you find tension there as well? Growing up very little. There were some that, you know, felt that, you know, they that we were, you know, privileged.

01:03:33.800 - 01:04:15.000

And, uh uh, you know, um, we we were We were basically, um, of another group. And but But it wasn't It went back by far. It was It was much, much less than than, um than with the the actual with the Panamanians. Like I said that that that that sauce as as as their class citizens, you know, we we we were We were more embraced by the West Indian communities in Panama than we were.

01:04:15.490 - 01:04:35.730

But the Latin or Hispanic communities in Panama, some of the some of the thought process of the Latin community of the Latin communities in Panama permeated some of our West Indian brothers. Bad thoughts. So, like I said, it was there. It was very late, but it wasn't very.

01:04:35.740 - 01:04:52.010

It was. It wasn't very prevalent. You could You could see it Mhm. You could sense it. You could choose to ignore it, which at times I did and just go on about you with because, um, I was also very active in our in our church. I am.

01:04:52.890 - 01:06:02.090

I am on of the Episcopal faith and and as such, we would interact with churches from different parishes throughout Panama and typically the West Indian, um, Palestinian communities would be Hamilton and, um, which is the episode of the Episcopal Episcopal chapter of the of Christianity. So we had a chance to to work with some of the churches, um, within Panama, in the city of Panama that both on the Atlantic and Pacific side that that the West Indian, uh, folks would attend churches like, um um, Christchurch by the sea on the on the Atlantic side and ST Christopher on the on the on the Pacific side and ST um ST Paul's on the Pacific side.

01:06:02.100 - 01:06:32.400

Um, when But our church was ST Albans and in Paris. So, um, then there was Think of Saint Simon. I'm not sure if I think since Sam was in Gamboa and Alex can can correct me if I'm wrong, Um, and and some of these churches that I just cited, We're on Canal Zone somewhere in a Republic of Panama.

01:06:32.780 - 01:06:49.500

Some of them are from the Republic of Panama. Folks would travel from the canal zone to attend some of these churches, like ST Paul, folks would attend that lived and worked on the canal zone. There was a church that was closer to them. So they went there.

01:06:49.980 - 01:07:24.460

Um, Saint Christopher was was a church that at some of the folks that worked on the canal zone and would attend, um, but typically lived and lived in, in In, in Panama City, in the Navajo Popular federal area. Um, so, yes, it was there, but not as prevalent as as if, you know, you were you were dealing with with a Hispanic Panamanian mhm question.

01:07:24.470 - 01:08:04.000

Um, as the transfer of the treaty went into effect, how did how did you feel about the, um, the shifting of the power of the canal to the Panamanians? Well, I had mixed feelings. I had mixed feelings because, um, I first felt that that, um, they needed to be shifted because the United States had basically, uh, yeah, taken advantage of Panama for for all those years.

01:08:04.470 - 01:08:30.500

So I I felt that, you know, as as we had to vote for the referendum, I felt, you know, I think it's time the Panama you get what? What is due to them and and, you know, the the United States. Uh, pretty much my thought process was that they bullied their way through the entire the entire time time frame that they were there.

01:08:31.070 - 01:08:54.790

And, you know, it was It was It was time. And that was that was my thoughts were permeated by Bye. The fact that I was basically a second class citizen in the canal zone, uh, we were We were of a different community work. We're taught in a different a different school curriculum.

01:08:55.170 - 01:09:26.090

We have to shop in a different commissary. We had to go to different theaters. Um, we we couldn't go to certain cafeterias. And, you know, everything was different from for us. The police force was different. We we we, um the police officers that were there in the canal zone were basically of of West Indian descent.

01:09:26.770 - 01:10:00.970

Um, everything was different. Okay, Uh, that was my thought process there. And as I matured a little more, I realized that that, um maybe he was a little too early, Um, in having that happen because, you know, I saw a lot of things start to to deteriorate as as as a transition wore on.

01:10:01.660 - 01:10:23.400

The transition was transition started in 1977. I think it was. And as as things went transitioning. You could see that Panama wasn't ready to take over some of these things. So So So I I said, Well, maybe it was a mistake at that point in time.

01:10:23.410 - 01:10:54.870

This was, of course, after 19 73 which is when they had the referendum. Um, and, uh, I realized that it was because there was There was it happened. Like I said, uh, in my mind's eye, it happened a little too quickly. If there was a little more training that was afforded to to the Panamanian, um, folks, that would be taking things over, he would have probably gone a lot smoother.

01:10:55.360 - 01:11:54.120

Now, today, um, it is very obvious that that Panama has has been able to to flourish with the transition of the canal 100% to Panama. They've had years, decades to be able to to make sure that they embrace the type of mindset that that the the United States government had canal the Panama Canal Company had in in maintaining and operating some of the entities that that needed to be maintained, and they were able to open the the the type of of activities that who are closed in in when when the Panama Canal Company had it as far as as a trade and the railroad was used.

01:11:54.130 - 01:12:17.920

Much is always being used rather much more effectively than it was ever used When Panama Canal Company had it, Um, so So No, I went from Yes, it should happen. Two. I don't think it happened. Like when it should have to. I'm glad it happened. That has been my thought process.

01:12:17.920 - 01:12:35.950

As far as the the transition of the of the canals it's about, Um Uh huh. I know we've been on for a little bit, but I would love to hear about your wife and how you met your wife. And sure, and I would love to. I know you would.

01:12:35.960 - 01:12:57.760

She would love to hear her, too. My wife was part of the church group from ST Christopher's church. Her dad and mother and my dad and mother were friends before we even met her dad and my dad were a lot of brothers. They went to the same lodge.

01:12:58.750 - 01:13:20.660

Um, they were masons, her mom and my mom. Her mom worked for a while, and, uh, within the think I think she worked also within the safety circuit. But then later she decided to become a to be a stay at home mom. And so I know my wife from we were Children.

01:13:21.850 - 01:13:47.660

Our our parents used to go on weekend all things together. Let's take us all and what we would play and and and have fun, Uh, as we got more mature and, uh, we we started to show interest in each other as youth. I was a member of the youth group in our church.

01:13:48.850 - 01:14:26.620

Um, you know, that's another activity. I was very active in the church, and, um, we we we basically, um we I would say at a youth What what was a youth camp, which was in the in the in the vacation days? Uh, the school system vacation days in, uh, the interior we That was where we we started to kindle our relationship and we were both young adults.

01:14:26.620 - 01:15:12.160

Then that was back in 19, 70 one, 1971. And so, at that point in time was when I would be I would go more to her home and visit. And, you know, it was very, very well received by her parents and her sisters and brother, Um, And we got married in 1977 and, yeah, uh, and we have two daughters and one was born, and we are married.

01:15:12.160 - 01:15:46.950

And, um, February, March of 1976. And our first daughter was born in April of 1977. Our next daughter was born in February of 1981 on my wife's birthday. Nonetheless, And so they share the same birthday. Um, we can said we got married at that time. I was in the apprenticeship program.

01:15:48.140 - 01:16:19.020

And, yeah, we lived in Panama in the in the and, uh mm. Basically in the metropolitan area in the suburbs, actually. And, uh, just before we got married, we bought our our own home. And, uh so we we managed to That's one of the things we wanted to do to be able to, you know, we don't want to have an apartment or anything that I wanted to have our own.

01:16:19.020 - 01:16:39.960

So we bought around home, and, uh, I lived there for a while. So that then, um, but another home closer to her parents in Chinese, where they have built their house. And we stayed there until until we relocated to the United States in 19. 1988. Early 89.

01:16:41.430 - 01:17:16.950

And she went to school in Panama. She went to um, and Richard Norman and, uh, before that, she went to, um it's a school. Like I remember the name of it. Um, no, no. And and I am Her elementary school was the Republika the i t, which was right across the street from her from where they lived in Rio Abajo.

01:17:17.930 - 01:17:58.450

Mm. She also worked for the the the the armed Forces system civil service system. She worked in their personnel when she started in personnel with Mr Clark. Mr. Carlisle Clark, um, working as a as a clerk in the in the in the That was a section where the tracing unit and and he he was her first supervisor and she worked there.

01:17:58.930 - 01:18:17.650

Basically, those are the people who did the computation of the service for for folks who are retiring to tell them whether they had the amount of service they thought they did to be able to retire or that they have to work another two years or that they had five years more than they they thought they did, um, and then from there?

01:18:18.820 - 01:19:00.280

Um, she worked for the credit union battery. So for a while and then and then she went to work for the for the Navy personnel office. And then from there she went to work for the for the Air Force personnel. And she worked basically in personnel doing doing, um, clerical and administrative work until the eighties, when she she left that the that service of a service and started off on her own.

01:19:00.280 - 01:19:23.930

She went off. She was into a direct sales there is accompanied by the name of Princess House. Here in the United States, they sell, they sell crystal and fine china. And it's basically a direct sales type activity where you have you have people come to your home and you know, you have a catalog and you show them the wares and they order what they need to order.

01:19:24.420 - 01:19:48.350

But in the order is sent to them by mail Here in the United States and Panama was a little different. She worked with another company, um, that was instrumental in bringing that that particular business to Panama, and they both were the were the two companies and that represented Princess House in Panama.

01:19:49.120 - 01:20:15.330

um, the first company was Oh, deca. Um, And then, uh, we joined later on, but with luxury style. And a little after that, she branched off on her own with another company, which was the exclusive representative of, uh, find fashion jewelry in Panama, which the jury from accompanied by name of Park Lane again here in the United States.

01:20:15.330 - 01:20:49.530

You forged an alliance with them, and she managed to run a pretty successful business. The name of that company was left fantasy. Um, and and basically, she she was able to offer the opportunity to a lot of other housewives and and even even working mothers. Um, whether Single are married to have an additional source of income.

01:20:50.310 - 01:21:15.930

Um, and and and? And there was the fashion jewelry when they call it costume jewelry, much to our chagrin, because we hate the term. Um, it's fine fashion jewelry. That's how that's how it's marketed. Bye. Bye, Park lane. Anyway, um, she was She was very, very, very into that.

01:21:16.510 - 01:21:36.540

Up until when we relocated, we left. We left Panama. We left the business and, uh, in the in the hands of her, her mom and her dad and then we came up here and we were. We were also active in doing that. And she was more so than I was helped her whenever I could.

01:21:37.410 - 01:22:05.720

And, uh, little after that, there wasn't as much of a warm reception for that type of activity here in Miami, even though it's a United States based company, as there was in Panama. Um uh, in Panama, the ladies have a tendency of always wanting they don't go out unless they have the makeup on.

01:22:06.600 - 01:22:26.960

And they got their there and they're well dressed. So so fashion jewelry being an accessory to them being dressed was, was right down there at so it was It was an activity that really took off the sale of fashion jewelry there in Panama. And here it's a little different.

01:22:26.960 - 01:22:48.120

You know, some of the women don't care how they how they, you know, are the leader leave home, you know? But, you know, again, I digress. Anyway, uh, she did that here until it until it basically did. It wasn't wasn't viable anymore. And then she went and worked for for the county for a while.

01:22:49.600 - 01:23:16.610

And then she worked for for the Baptist hospital system as a supervisor in the in the endoscopy section. Um, until she retired last September. So So you both go home now enjoying each other? Yes, we are. She still does. She does on the side. She's a Weight Watchers coach.

01:23:17.500 - 01:23:42.890

Oh, yeah, she does. Weight Watchers. That's what she is right now doing a Weight Watchers workshop. And so she does that some some some afternoons and some some mornings. And what? Yes, We're both home enjoying enjoying the fruits of our labor. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. I want to thank you.

01:23:42.890 - 01:24:00.890

I know we're going on a little time, so I want to open it up to the group. But I want to tell you Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. I enjoyed it. I learned so much. Um, it's been a wonderful experience just participating, Um, in these interviews are now getting to do one and speak to you.

01:24:00.900 - 01:24:14.900

So thank you. And I hope to meet you in person at some point. Um but t I'm gonna turn it back to you if you are in the group to see if there are other questions. I know I missed. Um, but there's there was so much you shared.

01:24:14.900 - 01:24:45.640

Thank you. Thank you again. Okay. You're welcome. Oh, well, guys, I just want you guys to know that Lancelot is one of my very first friends growing up. And you can see why I woke you guys up at six o'clock in the morning because he's just an awesome, awesome, awesome friend classmate.

01:24:45.650 - 01:25:19.310

I knew his grandmother, his grandmother and my mother were good friends. I went to I went over to their house. As you can tell from some of what, Lance sauce his chair. They didn't struggle financially as much as maybe families with larger with more siblings. So I like going over to land socks house because always guaranteed to get something to eat it and I would always have something to eat.

01:25:19.310 - 01:25:50.390

So it was I was a frequent visitor, you know, that's why you came. That's why I thought you came because you like me. I like came my brother. You became my brother. Um, that's like, um, I personally learned a lot from this interview. I am. I left in the 10th grade, so I was not privy to the 1972 movement.

01:25:50.400 - 01:26:08.700

But I kept up with my my classmates, and I knew some of the efforts, but there's a big difference to hearing about it and just being a part of it. So that was extraordinary to me is also extraordinary that, um, you know, I jotted down. Damn, You can't protest because your parents could lose their jobs.

01:26:08.710 - 01:26:34.650

And then I heard you say it, you know? And I realized, you know, that's all those are all control mechanisms that were place that kept us back. I don't want to go on and on, but I would make some observations here. Um, we've been interviewing folks in their eighties nineties, and, you know, I kind of shifted to somebody's phone is on and can hear.

01:26:34.660 - 01:27:02.900

Um, please mute. Yeah, for Yeah. Thank you. I was competing. Um, but I heard a few shifts in just generational approaches, and I don't know if it's land slots mindset or if it's just a a sign of the time. Um, you know, this Lancelot didn't talk about gold and silver.

01:27:02.980 - 01:27:26.950

He talked local and Americans. You didn't talk about the white people? He called them the Americans. Um, but yet in the older generation. There was that distinction. So we started to shift in our, um, understanding and our perception I was not there, but I definitely pick it up in, In, in, uh, this is why.

01:27:26.950 - 01:27:56.990

So it's going to be so rich to hear different generations and how that shift occurred? Definitely, uh, US movement. The black movement had an impact, though they were somewhat controlled, They still it still had an impact on you know how they perceive things. So I just found that very interesting that that by by the he's born in 53 to 29th.

01:27:56.990 - 01:28:17.120

I am the 24th of September. So we're just literally days apart and that by the time we were teenagers, we started speaking different. He talked about Latin American school. He talked about Latin Americans, community, didn't talk about the older people said we Parisot was our community was a black people community.

01:28:17.120 - 01:28:43.500

We did not mix with them and, you know, so they they just viewed it very differently. And we saw it for what it was. And, um uh, me, I just thought that they live where they live because they were Americans. I did not really think of it then, as is because we were black and they were, um they were white.

01:28:44.370 - 01:28:58.680

I thought a bit more of a nationalistic kind of thing. So it's a mixed thing. That what we what? We think so. Thank you. Landslide. I could go on and on and on, but I want I'm going to leave it. Give it to Alex. Alex, do you have any questions?

01:29:01.970 - 01:29:37.400

Um, it was very interesting to learn. Uh, everything, um, land's shared. Um, I must say, my experiences on the canal zone began when I was, uh, 5.5 6 years old when we moved to Santa Cruz, which is the so called Latin American site of Gamba, Better known as Gamble.

01:29:38.070 - 01:30:18.280

Yeah. Okay. Um, Gamble was a segregated community. Um, we had the Americans living on one side and the Latin Americans living on another side. Um, yeah, they called the Latin American side, uh, Santa Cruz. Okay, So, um and and they call it Latin American. Uh, not to say.

01:30:18.290 - 01:31:02.290

Okay, the black side. Um but there was, uh, a lot of racism. I lived racism in Santa Cruz. Um, okay. I was born in hospital Santo Tomas in Panama in August 31st. 1953. Um, and we lived in, uh, central. I'm in Caledonia, and then we moved to Santa Cruz.

01:31:03.360 - 01:31:29.740

My parents both work for the canal zone government. Um, but before I I go on, um, is this a continuation of this session or, um, are we gonna do a separate session? Yes. Alex, Um, we will do a separate session. I can't wait to hear your story.

01:31:29.750 - 01:31:50.750

Um, um, we are just wrapping up today with Lance. And if you're any questions specifically for him, because I'm sure your experience is going to be very different, even though we're the same age because you lived in a a community where the white people were just a few blocks away, you know?

01:31:50.750 - 01:32:17.880

So, um, that's a very, very different experience than us living in Paris or Pedro Miguel. So if you if you have any questions for, um, landslide, that would be cool. And I can't wait to he gets your date prettier. Well, um uh, one thing about Lance I came to meet lands when, um, they came to the United States.

01:32:18.350 - 01:32:46.270

Oh, Okay. Um and because I met his brother Ricardo. Ricky as we all know him when I was in the navy Uh huh. In California and where we can, I became very good friends. And when we moved to Florida, um, he told me that his his his brother would be moving to Miami.

01:32:47.450 - 01:33:19.720

And that's when I met Butch. And, well, um, it's it's it's been a good experience, uh, meeting Butch and his family and, well, we've shared a lot and, uh, well, hats off to you, Which for sharing all that. Um, what about your aviation? Yeah, Yeah, I didn't talk about thanks.

01:33:19.730 - 01:33:43.670

Thanks for reminding me. You're talking about that? Well, I'll articulate a little bit about that if you guys will allow me to indulge. Um, as a boy, my grandmother would always take me to Colon since on the train. Since she was she was from Colon. And she would go there and sometimes weekly every every weekend.

01:33:44.350 - 01:34:05.160

And she would always take me along. And for that, they said I was her favorite, because anywhere she went out, she would take me along anyway, as we went through the Isthmus of Panama from from from Pedro Miguel going north towards Colon you have to pass through Gamboa.

01:34:06.040 - 01:34:27.680

And there was an airstrip there, and I would always see these small airplanes and, you know, for some reason or the other, I thought I would like to fly one of those things one of these days. And every time I pass by there, I I would remember, uh, you know, you know, it was back on to me.

01:34:27.690 - 01:34:46.270

Was, like, you know, something, talking at me. And so, um, that kept that was something that was always with me. And when I came up to the United States, uh, we live in in we live here in in the candle area, not far from a local airport.

01:34:47.340 - 01:35:07.670

And in, um 1970 1993 I decided I was going to do my my, um I was gonna do an initiation flight to see if I really liked it. Well, I went up and, of course, you know, I was hooked. Uh, and I started to learn to fly in 1993.

01:35:08.340 - 01:35:37.760

I became I was flying, um, small planes, single engine planes, and, uh, and in 1993 I almost I was I did my solo and I was ready to do my my flight with the with the FAA examiner for my license Well, and where it got in the way.

01:35:38.540 - 01:36:08.350

And at that time, I was promoted 2 to 1 of the jobs that within within Miami Dade County that that was taking was going to take a lot of my time. So I I put it on hold for a while, and awhile became four years. So in 1919 97 I decided that I was going to go back and finish what I started.

01:36:08.930 - 01:36:32.700

And one of the things that was also pushing me was my mother in law. She she died. She died in 1990 two. And she had told me because I told her I had told her years before that I was going to learn to fly one day and she told me, Whenever you're going to do that, let me know because I want to.

01:36:32.710 - 01:36:58.340

I want to learn with you because I want to fly also. So she passed. And you know, that was one of the things that that drove me to try to realize my dream. So anyway, in 1997 I I finalize things I got my private pilot licence and a I'm certified to fly single engine planes.

01:36:58.830 - 01:37:33.840

I'm also a certified to fly instrument conditions. Um, I, um I love flying. I have been able to get up, you know, recently, because of the coronavirus activities, there are restrictions, but flying is something that I love to do. And I know Alex mentioned this because his dad and his mom were also pilots, and his dad said is not said to me once, I won't fly here because these people here are too crazy.

01:37:34.330 - 01:38:12.430

And, uh, I think his experience stems from from the activities in North Perry Airport which sometimes get a little a little and tactic. But but but flying is that it's something that I was a lifelong dream of mine from my boy and I managed to learn how to fly and love love flying, and anytime anyone of you are around and, uh, give me a call him and when the weather is good, because I'm not gonna take you up in bad weather, whether it's good, we'll go up for flight.

01:38:14.120 - 01:38:35.750

Thank you. I mean, here it is. I learned something else about my friend. Oh, my God, this is amazing. Johnette, are you there? I know you. You were the early bird. Your your speaker. How do you get, um, utter Lesa? Yeah. How are you? Long time no see.

01:38:36.120 - 01:39:11.700

Yes. Um, thank you for sharing. Your story was very interesting. I learned a lot myself. Um, two things. Well, two things I was gonna touch upon, but one, um, I knew that you all went to school in Spanish, but it didn't occur to me that the the books were in English and impressive to know that you all were able to learn subjects, um, being taught in Spanish, But the books being in English and you all should all give yourself credit for that, because that's very impressive.

01:39:11.700 - 01:39:30.830

I can And you are still feeling that you're behind the eight ball, but it takes some skill to be I would think to be able to do that. Um secondly, I wanted to know. And you you briefly touched upon it. Um, how was law enforcement handled on the canal zone?

01:39:30.840 - 01:40:01.260

I didn't you mention West Indians, police, the communities, the Latin American communities? Um, did you all How how did they interact with the residents and, you know, was it respectful? Were there white police officers at all that managed, You know, the zone? Yes, there were. There were white police officers, but in the majority, they were.

01:40:01.270 - 01:40:40.030

They were. They tried to have the police officers on the canal zone B either either, um, black West Indians that were naturalized as U S citizens or black Palestinians that that that were from the canals. Oh, and the there were some whites. And and I think one of the reasons that if I have to venture a guess, I would say, I think one of the reasons that they kept the black policeman here there in the canal zone is because they didn't want them Police in the white neurons.

01:40:40.610 - 01:41:12.320

Yeah. Uh, if if, uh if white person or a U S yeah, white person were to be stopped by a black cop and that that wasn't going to go through it, not any canals, Okay. The canal zone was that the laws in the canals or were based on the laws of the state of Louisiana, which was one of the most racist set of laws that you can find in the in the law book here in the United States.

01:41:13.410 - 01:41:40.350

Um, now, the black and the black cops are the West Indian cops. And in the in the canal Zone, they were more more, um, they were more in tune with with us and our culture And what we what we what we do and how we do it.

01:41:40.350 - 01:42:04.100

And who are the Who are the guys that, you know, we're We're skirting skirting the letter of the law. And I needed to They needed to just leave them alone unless they really they made a flagrant deviation from of the law. And in other words, there were some guys that would be, you know, some areas smoking, smoking there a little bit of weed, and they would leave them alone, They wouldn't go pursuing them.

01:42:04.100 - 01:42:21.620

And they know. Okay, this guy that's always gonna be doing it ain't gonna bothering anybody otherwise, um, contrary to probably what a white cop to be with You want to put the guy in handcuffs and take him away? Um, so So, yes, we had some white guys there.

01:42:22.100 - 01:42:53.520

I had I had I had a I had a run in with one of them? Uh huh. I'll share that another time, anyway. Uh, and that it was. It was. The law was enforced primarily by people of our own there. Um, at least during my time, a little before my time.

01:42:54.500 - 01:43:21.120

I think it was a little different, because at that time, there was a distinct discriminatory practice, which was white, white, uh, cold roll and civil role, like like like Francis mentioned earlier. The discrimination was much more Much more entrenched than and the West Indian art. Black workers in, in, in, in the canal zone.

01:43:21.600 - 01:43:55.620

We're not respected. Uh, well, they were respected less than they were respected in our time. Um, so So that I hope that answers that. Thank you. Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. Any other questions? I go here, you make. I have a couple of, uh, questions and comments. Um, this is Sophia.

01:43:56.320 - 01:44:35.420

And first of all, I want to tell you that I absolutely love your name. Your name sounds like it should be a president, ambassador or dignitary of star something. Well, I am a dignitary in my own, right. That's right. Exactly. Agreed. Agree. And, um secondly, I want to echo the sentiments of Jeanette and that I was not aware that you guys were behind the eight ball in terms of the educational system and the challenges that you were experiencing with, you know, um, your white counterparts that were, you know, um, you know, basically growing up in the same time.

01:44:35.430 - 01:44:55.600

And, um, the fact that you guys could continue to persevere and make something of yourself is very impressive, and it makes me very proud. Even I'm very proud to be a pen Dominion, but hearing your story and it just makes me even prouder because it's like we're people of perseverance that that is for sure.

01:44:55.600 - 01:45:19.390

So thank you for that. And then lastly, um, I think you may know some of my family members right to you, I think you know. Do you know Shirley Green? Surely? Surely? Surely. Green, Mrs Green? Yeah, sure. Catchy long. Lydia, Look. Yeah, they went to school with us.

01:45:19.400 - 01:45:41.370

Yes. So that's my cousin. Yes, because Charlotte Shirley sounds Shirley was was starting to get some of the things that my mind run. But as soon as you said Lydia Yes, Lydia Lydia. I went to school. Yeah, she's good. Early is Lydia's mother. okay? Yeah. And she's She's lilies.

01:45:41.370 - 01:45:56.450

Lily Williams, his cousin also. Oh, Okay. Really Okay. Yes, yes, yes. Lily and my sister Lila, our good friend. Okay. I'll make sure to let them know that, uh, that I spoke to you or not spoke to you, but I heard your story today. Thank you very much.

01:45:56.450 - 01:46:18.980

It was nice meeting you. Thank you. Before I go to Kozma, Um, I think Joe Net and Michelle wanted a little clarity on Louisiana law. Can you explain to them how you know how the US brought that law there? When I say Brother la, we had governor.

01:46:18.980 - 01:46:54.260

It was an assignment, Governor. You know, we didn't vote necessarily, but we followed the laws of Louisiana. I think so. Yes. Yeah, Well, I'm not sure how how that came to be, but I was, And I was inform way when? When? When I was, um, yeah, well, when my father was alive and when I was still living with him, that the laws that govern the state that governed the state of Louisiana were the laws that they brought down to the canal zone.

01:46:54.270 - 01:47:24.800

Why? I don't know. Uh, if I have to venture. A guess I would say that that and, uh, they needed a set of laws that that that governed. Um, black folk. Okay, um, are governed the rights of black folks. Um, like the rights of black folks were governed appeared.

01:47:25.480 - 01:47:51.500

Why they picked Louisiana. I don't know. They could have picked Alabama. They could have picked Mississippi. Thank God they didn't. Because I think it. Even though they said Louisiana is one of the most racist, I think the Mississippi is the most racist. And but But those were the laws that prevailed there, and in our time, things were a little a little different, uh, in in.

01:47:52.080 - 01:48:14.090

And my father in last time, You know, he he remembers, um, being run off by by by by folks and, um, remembered rather because he's not with us anymore by by policemen. A white policeman on on horses, because they picked up a mango that fell on the floor.

01:48:14.470 - 01:48:33.100

Um uh, fell on the ground in the canal zone. And, uh, you know, they they would put it in the bag because, you know, they have that for lunch later, and they will run off because you know that that fruit that fell on on the ground.

01:48:33.470 - 01:48:52.200

They shouldn't Even they shouldn't be touching it because it's in the area where, um, the the white folks live. Um uh, there was there was also anecdotes of of of guys, just like it happened in the South here, back in the back, in the forties and in the thirties.

01:48:52.210 - 01:49:24.390

Hi, guys. Being being strung up because, um, they were looking at a white woman. And, uh, you know, so you, you you you a lot of those those things we didn't experience from, and I and Alex didn't experience them As much as we experience discrimination in another fashion, and but But those those are those are things that the law of that state permitted.

01:49:25.170 - 01:49:42.260

And, uh, you know, since there was a bunch of black people down here and and, you know, a contingent of of, uh, of of office of Chinese as well, you know, I guess they figure well, you know, let's let's let's bring these these laws down there.

01:49:42.270 - 01:50:16.580

That's that would be my take on, you know, don't think that's not that's I got here. Can't hear you. Got a smile. Okay. All right. Yes, ma'am. Uh, it was a pleasure listening to your take on things that how you grew up, and, um, a pleasure to hear that my uncle was one of those people in your lives.

01:50:16.580 - 01:50:47.230

You was the scout, uh, person, One of the people that you spoke about earlier. David Stanley. Oh, David is your uncle. If it was my uncle here. Okay. Okay. All right. One of them. Well, the second youngest brother. Uh, it strikes me that even though the time changed and the things change, that we still had an innate value.

01:50:47.230 - 01:51:21.560

So tell me what you value most about your culture. And are you preserving any of those things with your family in your life? What do you value most about your culture? Mhm. Well, about our culture, I value our resilience. Um, we we, um, in the face of adversity, multiple times, uh, sometimes daily.

01:51:21.570 - 01:51:47.790

You know, we we we found a way to be able to overcome. Um, I both my wife and I try to instill those in our daughters, and they're grown women now. Well, we still at times have to have to try to steer them towards that type of mindset.

01:51:48.560 - 01:52:11.070

and, uh, one of the things that we also enjoy is our food. And I love my Jamaican party. Uh, don't don't care for the one that that that that is packaged by grace, that that you you you put in the oven and he don't like it.

01:52:11.550 - 01:52:47.380

Give me the one that you know, somebody somebody made in an oven and bake it and, uh, has a flaky crust. And I love my my jerk chicken. Uh, I love my my well, the wife love the oxtail like 100 wife. Slovak still, um, I love the the the the Curry goat and our our tradition of of sitting at the table whenever we're going to have a meal.

01:52:47.750 - 01:53:16.670

And that's that's something that we instill in our daughters and of of, uh, of of basically thanking, thanking our provider for for for us being able to have that meal, uh, the tradition of of of, um of going to church okay. And and being spiritual. And that's something that we that we have followed.

01:53:17.050 - 01:53:31.770

My wife and I we were very active in the church. He was active in her youth group. I was active in mind. She was a Sunday school teacher. I decided not to be one, and she she she sang in her in her require of her church.

01:53:31.770 - 01:54:00.060

I sang in the choir in my church, and even after we got married with in the church and took our daughters to church and make sure that they were, they were they were very aware of the the the spiritual benefit that you get from from attending church and, you know, learning, learning the scriptures.

01:54:00.940 - 01:54:58.320

And as far as of as I am traditions and traditional holidays, we we enjoy, like everyone else, Christmas and, um, Thanksgiving. Those are those are holidays that we that we really, really look forward to. And and, uh, we celebrate each other's birthdays as as, um, as profusely as we can And, um, and we also and celebrate each other's achievements as minimal as they may be, because it's something that offers encouragement to be able to know that how that person know that.

01:54:58.330 - 01:55:18.960

Hey, you know, um, even though I may not feel that I did, um so Well, you know, someone is telling me that I did well in this or that or the other. So you know that means that that I my efforts were being looked at and I appreciated in value.

01:55:19.640 - 01:55:51.060

And so that's that's along the lines of tradition. I would say that whole area things that come to mind. Thank you. Okay. Alright. So, Larry, thanks very much. Any last but not least, your mike. Uh huh. Good morning to all others. Hey, I don't I don't know, landslide, but I've learned about landslides.

01:55:51.540 - 01:56:13.350

I know, but you know, Butch, I know. I saw a butcher. Grew up butchers and liquor Black. Yeah. Yeah. All right. All right. But But he did hang out with the big boys. Yeah, so you know. You know what? I don't want to tell him about the police, huh?

01:56:13.360 - 01:57:13.370

I wish I wish your this is how I used to look back in the day. All right? We need to run that. Let's see and any show him again. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, but it has been a pleasure to see, you know, we are a selective few of people, uh, from from the canal zone, person from Panama rather that grew up among these people that, uh, colonial ized us to try to live either their way or the highway and and which eloquently, um, discuss the many issues that we grew up by Grew up by and of.

01:57:13.380 - 01:57:35.890

And if you if you heard him mention the name Clark Kerr like Clark, that was my dad. He was talking about, uh he had the privilege, which is a key word that we use around here in this in this society that we grew up in. We had, uh, we had the privilege to be part of this Latin American communities.

01:57:35.900 - 01:58:01.990

They didn't want to call Amazonians because they claim themselves zona, right? And I I hear I hear what he had to say, and I feel I felt a lot and a lot of things came up. Um, the scouts, you know what I have, But I have the Boy Scout Law book that shadow brought to the scope shot back then I promise him to have it.

01:58:01.990 - 01:58:23.530

I got it from Mr every Mm Okay. Yeah. And so some of those historical data, as you know, we have to yes, document and make it part of our history and not wipe it out. Yeah. Any originals? We should just want a copy of it. Oh, yeah.

01:58:23.540 - 01:58:44.540

Oh, yeah. We'll do. Um, let me see. What would I ask Butch about? But remember, growing up? You know, we always have to go to summer recreation program. Yes. And that's where we learned. Do you remember the guys like, Well, I mentioned Shadow and Flash. Yeah.

01:58:45.120 - 01:59:08.240

And the things, you know, Remember what you learned in there and how these the people were a family. I did. You know, I've heard a lot of these interviews, but a lot of things, you know, you you grasp a lot of things and based on the questions, but there's a lot more going on inside the community that's not being developed.

01:59:08.240 - 01:59:25.730

So can you imagine that growing up growing up in the neighborhood of paradise because they move us from the mouth of the canal, You know that they don't see the black folks at the first sight when the ships come through, they moved us into paradise. Yeah.

01:59:26.420 - 01:59:54.150

Yeah, well well, that that And because remember, Balboa was close to LA Boca, right? So they wanted to be able to expand where the white people live. So they have to move the black people from there and unfortunately, the for them. And they couldn't do the same thing in Santa Cruz and that they had They had to leave Santa Cruz like it was.

01:59:55.020 - 02:00:12.730

And that was that. Was that if you if you remember, that was a logistical move. Because if they were to move the black people that work in Gamboa out of Santa Cruz moved them across the region and moved into Paris, or they can't get to work.

02:00:12.740 - 02:00:52.830

That's right. So, um and yeah, the summer camp. Um, uh, summer summer summer program that, uh I remember. I remember Shadow. And I remember Flash and And I remember us also remember that, uh, Michael Lavalas. Remember? He used to be part of that, and we used to learn to To make make words like, you know, that shows up to make my task and, uh, and how to work work with wood.

02:00:53.510 - 02:01:15.940

Uh uh. Lavalas was was keen in doing that. Um, I think I attended a couple of them. I didn't I didn't go to to everyone because each summer that they used to have it. Um, but but yeah, that was that was a part of our our recreation.

02:01:16.710 - 02:01:42.130

When, When we were out of school because, um, you know, our our parents didn't have the means to be able to take us here. Or there are sometimes not not necessarily the means, but the ability, because they have to work. And so, um, so we found, you know, the community found ways to entertain us and keep us out of trouble.

02:01:42.510 - 02:02:04.290

Those of us who were inclined to stay out of trouble and and and yes, it was it was I remember. I remember. I remember those days. And just the other day, a couple of days ago, I had to remember the China Man shop over there and, uh, yeah, yeah, China shop.

02:02:04.300 - 02:02:33.600

And I was one of my classmates, was remembering things a little fuzzily. And I had to have to bring our memory up to up to up the part, because remember the Chinese ship and the quality and in Europe and everything. Yeah, uh, and then also I remember when they raised the shop and and ability and escort and inability Jim after that and were the commissary was, uh, where we pick up our school package.

02:02:33.610 - 02:02:58.250

Remember that? Yes, sir. Uh, so So I'd like you to expand a little bit tough a little bit about that Chinese system and how they they kind of, um, traded or work with the black community because it was sort of like a second shopping or marketing market opportunity.

02:02:58.260 - 02:03:15.410

Black folks, especially during Brooke week. You know that it didn't have the funds for the commissary, so if you could share that with the younger group, that would be great. Well, yeah, the China Chinese man would he would he would he would sell your fill. You know, You know, the Spanish sfe out.

02:03:15.420 - 02:03:33.230

I mean, you know, you get, you get, you get hana bananas are or half a stick of butter and you will tell him you know, I'm gonna pay you and parayko and in writing it down in a book and when you're when you're when when they come, you gotta pay the man.

02:03:33.600 - 02:03:54.420

It was an honor system and it worked well. And then also they would accept the currency that day that that for some reason or the other, the canals and establishment would accept, like in Europe and the quality and so forth. What they would accept was a penny in above.

02:03:55.200 - 02:04:11.760

And if you had me up and quality and in in Panama to at quarter to that, a little coin that was called a tortilla was one and one and a quarter cents, and my wife remembered it and she she found it and she got a picture of it on the Internet.

02:04:11.770 - 02:04:55.630

So if you look up cardio and Google, you will see the the 1.5 1 and a quarter thing and coin that was used in Panama and you could go to the Chinese shop there because they have Chinese shops there, too. In Panama, in the in, the in, the in the west, Indian areas and you could use the quality and you get you get, uh, uh, half a stick of butter or you get to to slice of bologna or, uh, yeah, and and the the the the Chinese the Chinese were We're also discriminated against.

02:04:55.660 - 02:05:29.800

They are our brothers in discrimination, and, uh, they also recognize that so So they felt much closer to us. I would say that they they felt even to the Hispanics in the Republic of Panama and and as far as the the China Shop in Paris. So that was That was, I would say, an extension of the China Garden China Garden was was closer, uh, up the hill.

02:05:30.190 - 02:05:47.930

It passed the water attack on the other side of the water tax. And and then the china shop you could do that was that was like like family said I was an extension of, of of being able to get your goods at, uh, you know, because you exhaust your commissary card.

02:05:47.930 - 02:06:03.600

Because remember the commentary card? Yeah. After they scratch out everything, you can't go back there. You can't go back to the commissary unless you got a hook up. Unless you gotta hook up until you get the next card. And then and then the thing with the commissary card.

02:06:03.600 - 02:06:19.060

Also remember, this is if you if you if, in the middle of the consent to you finish your card, you have to go and talk to the pus Kisa because you have to explain to the pus Kisa why you finish that card and you can send it all finished.

02:06:19.060 - 02:06:37.600

Yet you don't make enough money to spend exactly excited, right? The charge they charged with contraband. Uh and then let's say you have a party. I don't know if you remember this city, but you have a party. You have to go before you call your by.

02:06:37.980 - 02:06:52.620

If I too have you have to go and tell a pus Kisa ai having a party I live at such and such as having a party. And I am going to be buying this amount of goods and they will locate or they will tell you. No, no.

02:06:52.620 - 02:07:18.930

The other party last week. I don't know what you're talking about. You got you got Oh, yes, yes, yes. So So so those The China China man shop would help us out when? Mostly when times were hard. We had we didn't have the money. Um, are when we wanted something, especially the kids, Uh, that that I don't sell in the commissary like med culture.

02:07:19.030 - 02:07:42.710

Remember, culture. You want my culture and not sell out in the commissary? Yeah, you have to go to China shop for that. So So? So that was That was something that I really enjoyed and, you know, being able to do that. That's why that's why the memory of that was so prevalent in my mind when I when I had to share with Marcia exactly where it was because I remember where it was.

02:07:43.280 - 02:07:59.400

Remember, it was right next to the culvert. Paris, a room. And that's that's what prompted me to have this this. I knew we were going to interview you, but because our on our classmate chats, we have this this conversation. It was so fresh. I said, let me catch you.

02:07:59.410 - 02:08:17.640

Everything is fresh in your mind so we can wrap up by you telling them about the package that we got for school. Oh, the package, man. Yes. The fucking Yeah, Yes, yes, yes. Look, with the package the package was you got, you got bought. The package.

02:08:17.650 - 02:08:38.460

You know, you your parents about the package, this and the year that you're going to. And that package had your drawing paper. It had a Caesar, a set of scissors. It had it had Crayola, it had pencils. And then I'm not paying them time. Because in those times they used to used to use, um, nib pen.

02:08:38.470 - 02:09:02.340

Got to dip the pen and ink. I started on the paper. Okay, so if it had anything, it would have depend needs and everything. And and independent to insert depends. And the areas that and then the eraser eraser. And then, um, it's nothing to sharpen the pencil because, you know, you want sharpen the pencil, you have to get up and go and sharpen the pencil.

02:09:02.340 - 02:09:27.500

And you better not get up too many times because the teacher I want to know why you're breaking the principal's office anyway. Um, and then they have different depending on the radio. We're going. You had those packages, and every every just before the school year starts, your parents would go and and they, you know, they would They would buy the package for you.

02:09:27.700 - 02:09:45.880

That process. That practice was discontinued after a while. And I think, uh, I was still in elementary when they discontinued that practice. And but then you have to go and buy your supplies on your own. You know, that was that was your Yeah, Yeah, yeah, I see it.

02:09:45.880 - 02:10:15.740

I see that that was that was that was your shopping way. But everything was hard to find. Any things were hard to find. Oh, uh, the package guys was in a brown brown brown paper brown brown Manilla paper. So the school day everyone had their sort of like it wasn't a cubbyhole or they handed it to you.

02:10:15.740 - 02:10:38.970

I don't know, but it was like Christmas. That's how I felt. It was like Christmas getting your package and all your you know, I end up losing a lot of this stuff because I was kind of like a scattered child. Yeah, when these kids get their backpack, when in the community distribution, that's what it reminds me of.

02:10:38.980 - 02:11:03.170

I have a reflection of it. So, Lancelot, I mean, we could go on and on and on, but I think this has been wonderful. And if you remember anything or would like to share anything additional, you know that you can go online and there's a questionnaire, a portal there that you could, you know, add anything or you write it and send it to me and we will add it.

02:11:03.170 - 02:11:33.080

And this, of course, will be going to the university. One last thing, Um, in terms of your community or school, is there anyone that left a lasting impression or had, um, some kind of influence? I know your dad was very fair. I know him well. But is there anyone outside of your immediate home that had lasted impression on Kind of like the guy that you are today?

02:11:33.660 - 02:12:03.570

Uh huh. Well, yes, a couple teachers, not the mind. One of them is Cecilia Williams. Mr. Williams. He was He was He was He was a stellar teacher. You know, um, he was a teacher that helped me. Helped me excel in In In, In one of the arithmetic and when a program that we had, which was geography.

02:12:03.580 - 02:12:19.270

I'm sorry. Yeah, geometry, geometry. Um, I was I was a star student of his in geometry. And then then when he tried to teach me trigonometry, he said, Well, what happened to you last year? He was He was He was so good. I said, no, this is different.

02:12:19.750 - 02:12:51.150

But I guess by then I had a different set of, uh, hormone process going on in my body. And, uh, we care about I was 10 grade and 11. I I didn't do as well in in in trigonometry as I did in geometry, but I passed.

02:12:51.160 - 02:13:18.890

I passed it. Anyway. Then, um, another teacher is, um, Miss Anderson. Um, Delia Anderson. She was our science teacher as we went into the seventh grade and eighth grade. Uh, Miss Quintero, she was a darling teacher. She was my chemistry and physics teacher, um, as a school goal.

02:13:18.890 - 02:13:36.660

And then there was, uh, Mr Peters, I don't know if you remember Peter's Eddie. Yeah, Peters was our geography teacher. Uh, later on late around here, and I became shooting buddies. I didn't know that he was He was a gun buff, like I like I became.

02:13:36.670 - 02:13:58.170

So as I when I left, when I was out of school, he would come by the house, and, you know, we would exchange stories, a shooting and so forth. And as, uh um, Mr Mr Curbing was was a teacher. That was he was very structured and very disciplined.

02:13:58.650 - 02:14:22.270

I admired him for for that and outside of the school system. Uh, Mr George Raymond, George and I were pretty pretty close here, and my dad were excellent, were very, very good friends, but we were close because I was I was in the very active in the scouts, and I became a scout commissioner.

02:14:23.140 - 02:15:00.450

Um, I really looked up to him. Um, and like I mentioned, you know, David Stanley. David Stanley and I went, uh, we went to the jamboree in Idaho together. And so he took the contingent of International Boy Scouts to the jamboree. And, uh, you know, he in some instances when as you were traveling because we traveled by road from Miami to Idaho and then back from Idaho, Miami And in a couple instances, he had to stand his ground because, you know, that was 1967.

02:15:01.140 - 02:15:25.870

And, you know, there was the Jim Crow was still still prevalent then. So he had to stand his ground and one instance in Mobile, Alabama. I remember him. You're telling off a waitress who didn't want to serve us. Um, and, uh, well, Mr Evren have on everything he was, he was a character.

02:15:26.340 - 02:15:56.170

Uh, Eric, I don't know about him. Any area was. So when everything was was a fella sculptor, he was instrumental in in in showing us discipline and also, um, respect for others. Um, uh, yeah, one person that I admired and he's still around with us is Raymond Chandler.

02:15:57.140 - 02:16:21.150

I admire Raymond because even though he is a policeman in the canal Zone police force, he recognized more than anything else that he was a black man also And that he he, um he couldn't treat us the way how the canal zone police force would want us to be treated.

02:16:21.630 - 02:16:41.160

So I would say that he took policing in the canal zone to customise level as far as he was concerned. But what the white man didn't know then, you know, then he didn't have to know. And, you know, that was between us and on the on the west Indian side, he's a to be interviewed.

02:16:41.830 - 02:17:11.240

Good. I'm sure that he has some some very good stories to tell you as well as Helen, Helen was Was Helen was phenomenon in in the in the personnel personnel. Uh, area. Yeah, she can tell you a lot. Yeah, but And as in the workforce, as as folks go, uh, you know, I not because you're on the phone, Eddie.

02:17:11.240 - 02:17:42.410

But I did admire Carlisle, and on the way how, the way how he carried himself and and the way how he would do well, Maricela mentioned that he would he would he would teach them how to do things and and the respect that that that he he um, he demanded from from everybody in the in the canal, the canal area or the canal zone government.

02:17:42.421 - 02:17:58.130

You know, whether the black and white, no matter who. Yeah, so So you know, he was He was somebody that had married Maricela. And I talked about him up. You know, as, uh up to the other day, we were talking about him because we're remembering our our employers.

02:17:58.140 - 02:18:17.470

Um, so So those are some of the people that that in that I would say, help to shape and permeate my way of thinking and and also assist me to navigate through some of the stuff that that I have had to experience here in Miami, too.

02:18:17.470 - 02:18:42.950

Because, let me tell you, it's still not easy for us. And, you know, when I when I came here to Miami, I took a hell car vehicle. Um, because I used to work for the federal government. So I had to I had to, um and I I left Mississippi because the family was here, and I was, um I was in Mississippi last 900 miles away, so I wanted to be here with them.

02:18:43.720 - 02:19:31.260

And when I came here, Yeah, I experience some, Some some challenges. Uh, some of it because I recall on my skin Um uh, here in in a in a in the Miami area. But a lot of what we we're able to to learn from the people that we looked up to and from the people that were around us and that we were able to to experience from what we had to live and in the Canal zone helped me along the process to be able to start off as a first line supervisor in Miami Dade County and finish my career as a division chief with with the county.

02:19:31.260 - 02:19:56.840

And you know that that's that's something that that the perseverance and that that that we learned And, uh, for the people that I was able to see and admire, um gave That's a benefit that I got from that, Mr Llewellyn. Thank you. Well, thank you. This is an amazing interview.

02:19:57.420 - 02:20:24.090

And I'm sure that it is opening more questions for, um, other other interviews to be had because I know you have scratched. You told us a lot, but you scratched the surface. I'm so much more that went on in our community that, uh, we hope that we can make sure it's documented in history.

02:20:24.091 - 02:20:48.500

Because, like you said, we are an amazing people with perseverance, endurance and and those sacrifices that our ancestors made are represented on these calls. This call today, you know, and and the last thing I want is for any of it to go in vain. So, uh, that's my passion and my mission.

02:20:48.500 - 02:21:11.240

And everyone's on this call feels the same way. So thank you for your piece to this quilt. And again, please send and share any additional information that you would like to be added to it. We need some photo. We need some photos past and present, if you have and the life history form.

02:21:11.810 - 02:21:31.390

And, of course, the interview with permission. Because without that, we can't University can't disclose your your story. Okay, I will do that. I'll do that. Okay? And we will send you a little token of appreciation to I'll tell you afterwards. Thank you all. Thank you for getting up.

02:21:31.391 - 02:22:08.620

I think it was worth it for all of us. And, uh, and heads off to the Boy Scout thing. Y'all nicely. Uh what? Okay, Next Next week. Okay, Let me know. Okay. We'll talk some more friends. Sure. Thank you. Good. Good seeing everyone. All right. Have a good day every weekend and they say