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All right. I'm Amanda Knoll with the University of Florida. The Samuel Procter Oral History program. It's July 1st, 2010, and I'm here with my name is John Schmidt. Thief. Full name is John E. Schmidt Junior on. Thank you for agreeing to talk to us today. And I just like to start off with maybe your early life tell us a little bit about your family and where you grew up and then gettinto how you came to the Panama soon.

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Well, Amanda, I am. I suppose that my reason for being here today obviously is because I had some connection to Panama and the Panama Canal. Uh, it wasn't, but not too many years ago that in looking at my father's diary of many, Many years ago, he made an entry in 1928 and the entry was simply I plan to go to Panama now.

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I didn't know about this entry when my pop was alive, but my sister, who had the diary, made a copy of that page. And, uh, I never had really any idea why he wrote that in 1928 other than when he was a young man. Uh, in 1928 that would have made him being 25.

00:01:37.740 - 00:02:04.360

He lived in Baltimore, Maryland, where he was born, and he shipped out on an Oiler a tanker, and the tanker eventually ended up in France and then back in Baltimore. And I don't know how many days that Waas but I do have a record of the ship voyage when he left Baltimore and he was signed on as a deckhand.

00:02:05.040 - 00:02:31.370

It's very possible now that I think back it's something happened on that voyage that made him think that panel would be a good place to go to. Yeah, 1928. He was 25 and I believe he was married shortly after that. I can't remember the dates now, but to shorten up the story he went to Panama in 1934.

00:02:31.740 - 00:02:56.210

So 34 28 as six years that he didn't go, and for whatever reason, I don't know. But he went to Panama in 1934 toe work for the U. S. Army Signal Corps in the Canal zone. Well, my mother and my sister and I, who in 1934 was just three years old, were living in Baltimore.

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And so in August of 1935 we my sister, my mother and I arrived in the Panama Canal. And although I don't have any specific memories of that particular day or or the fact that I was not quite four years old, But I do know we moved to a Army post called Corals L on the Pacific side and my father being working for the Army.

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Evidently they give him, gave him a quarter's house live in. I think it was obviously temporary because the house was really nothing more than an old paint shack. But I can remember it very well, being right in the middle of an Army post with barracks all around, and I have a photograph of that building and it truly waas just a little square paint shack.

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I have a picture of me standing in front of it in an Army uniform. Um, you couldn't tell it Army, but it was a khaki uniforms, so that was the Army's uniform, and I had little second lieutenant bars on my shoulder. Well, I was four years old, and I suppose that might have had some connection to my future because I spent my adult life in the military, so there must have been some connection there.

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What? I was 1935 and I remember that we lived in several homes, houses, apartments for a couple of years. I don't have the dates down specifically, but I do remember one place we lived in Balbo was a 24 family house, 24 family. You know, you know, you think about that.

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They were actually apartments, but a lot of houses in the Panama Canal Zone were either single units, duplexes, four, family house, 12 family house. This was a 24 family house. And I remember that we families shared Ah, bathroom. And I remember that was probably three for half a dozen family shared one bathroom, so it wasn't very a very convenient.

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I do remember that. But I remember the fact that it was a multi multi, uh, family place to live. We soon moved to Pedro McGill. Pedro McGill was a lock town because that's where the Peter McGill locks were. And you probably heard that. But it's a, uh it was a small town, probably not more than three blocks long.

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If you look at the main road that goes in front of the town. And if you look at the map, there's probably only three blocks in that whole town that goes around in kind of a little circle around the Peter Miguel lake and the locks being right all across the road where my father worked for the Peter Miguel Locks.

00:06:01.940 - 00:06:23.990

Then he worked for the Panama Canal Company, and I remember moving there, and I think I was just I can remember five years, five years old, maybe six years old. But that is my best memories of being a young boy in the Panama Canal living in the town of Piedra McGill.

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The friends I made there are friends today, here with me. Today, in just a few minutes moments, I'll be meeting with a group of those same people that I grew up with. Back in the early 19 thirties in the Canal Zone, Peter MacGill was a being a lock town during the war was extremely active with the military.

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Uh, we had barrage balloons all over the town because it was protecting the locks. We had anti aircraft positions on the hills around the town because they were protecting the locks. Uh, there were smudge pots, which were nothing more than smoke pots. I suppose they're similar to what is used in orange groves, uh, to protect, uh, in the winter, time to protect the the fruit.

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I don't know where I got that from, but anyway, the smudge pots were used to, uh, set off smoke screens around the canal, the locks And in those days, long before we had any other new modern technology that was considered adequate to hide by smoke. Well, when a smudge pots were set off around the locks around our town, it was not the most happiest times for the ladies.

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My mother, I remember rushing out to get the clothes off the clothes line because the smudge pots would leave soot all over the clothes that were hanging up. But the kids, we never thought about that. We thought it was fun. And we like to run behind the truck and, uh, and and hide in the smoke and play.

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And of course, when you think back now certainly wasn't healthy to be running and breathing all that burning oil, whatever it was really So it was exciting. A zoo a little kid being, uh, just 10 years old when the war started and it was exciting. Toe look and see the ships coming to the canal, the all the soldiers and all the activity around the locks with the military.

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Uh, I became what is known as a mascot now a massacre that at Florida State University of Courses are beautiful. Uh, horse. I can't think horse name right now, But renegade, renegade and renegade is a mascot with F S, U. And, of course, the Gators. A mascot over in Florida, University of Florida.

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But I was a mascot with the Army aircraft anti aircraft unit. And because close to where I lived in the Town of Parade, so, uh, was the headquarters for this anti aircraft unit and the 906 triple A battalion. I remember it very, very plainly. Uh, they had a patch made, which I still have.

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And I used to wear that on my shirt, which was my uniform and and doing, uh, joined the days I would help out at the unit by, uh either working maybe in the dining hall, the mess hall they called it or helping out on payday when the soldiers came through to get their pay and I'd sit there with the first started what he handed out, got the people to sign the roster, and, uh and the captain would hand out the money, had little jobs to do around.

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It was exciting and being part of this anti aircraft unit, Um, that was 1943. And it was 1978 that I decided to try to contact somebody from that outfit. And I saw I remembered the names because I had them written down in some program or something.

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And so I found this same name in California and I called and it was the same person that was the commander of the headquarters battery. And we talked, and he was very surprised that I remembered and I could find him, especially off course. He was quite old, but he and his wife, uh, we're on the phone, and, uh, and they were thrilled to death that someone, some little kid from way back in 1943 would remember him.

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But it was It was fun. I enjoyed my life in the Panama Canal. Uh, it, of course, as everybody who basically grew up there were born and raised their, uh Their whole life was shaped by what we saw and what we learned and how we lived.

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And the fact that even today, 60 70 plus years ago, we still know each other, see each other, stay in contact with each other extremely cohesive group of people. Um, for May it was it was my future life. Having grown up there and watching the military grow, watching the air Force up in the interior of Panamao, at the air bases, Shammy field and Rihanna and sitting on the sides of the field is a little kid and watching these airplanes take off and land and the exercises and the training that they did, uh, never thinking about it then.

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But it shaped my life because I joined the Air Force after graduating from high school in 1950. And then I spent the next 30 years on active duty with the Air Force. So when I think back of what? How I became to be what I am today, I think it had to do with what you were when you know I was there and what you were when is is a take off on.

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You are what you were when, in other words, in 19 forties, that's the way life was. And that's part of the way my personality is shaped. And I am very proud of it on very, extremely pleased to know that I grew up there, and the friends that I made, I married there.

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I married the daughter of the superintendent of Gorgas Hospital, Colonel Blitch, and had Children born there and eso, even though they didn't have the long tenure that I did living there. They're very proud to think that they were born in the Panama Canal. Um, I went back again after in my service life, 20 years after I had left on my first assignment, because I enlisted there in 1951 and in 1973 I went back for another tour duty back at all Burke Air Force Base and after being away 20 years, it was great to be home again and enjoyed my tour on DSO since then.

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Since then, I've been back four or five times on trips, uh, either on a cruise or on a flight, and, uh, I always look forward to going back. Um, although it is nothing like it. Waas when I was growing up, we always remember that even though the lake that was behind my house not more than 30 50 ft away from my house when I was a little boy to me look like a you know, a massive lake, and it actually was really, really quite small.

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But when you're small, things look big. And when you're older, they looked much smaller. So when I go back and recent trips where I live, there's no longer their houses were gone, uh, replaced by other houses. Uh, streets have been renamed. Um, the place is very familiar because you don't forget some things, but it saddened into a certain way when when it's no longer the Panama Canal Zone, it's Republic of Panama.

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Um, be that as it may, it's still fun to go back. It's always a pleasure to remember growing up in the Panama Canal because, well, it was just such a close knit group of people with only two high schools and one junior college. Um, you know, there's there's just a remembrance in a appreciation of friends that you just take with you, Uh, all of my schooling took place in the Canal zone, And that also is another thing that it's worth saying is that the people who went to the Panama Canal schools we're far in ahead of most other high schools in the United States or schools in advance in the knowledge that they got from those schools.

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In fact, when kids would come down from the states to the Canal Zone to go to school for the first time, like maybe great school or junior high school, they usually had to go back a year because they were not quite up to speed with the rest of the levels in the cows on schools.

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So I'm very proud of that. And I can only say as although the memories are extensive and I've only covered just a few things in the 25 years and I lived there, Um, I believe I am today a very lucky person to have grown and lived in the Panama Canal.

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Uh, my friends that I made are still with me in the majority of cases, and, uh, my my family has a major connection to the canal, and so I continue to think that when someone says where you from? I might have been born in Baltimore, Maryland, but I always say I'm from Panama.

00:17:11.150 - 00:17:41.780

The Panama Canal Zone. Um, can you tell me a little bit more about your parents? Did they retire in the Panama Canal? My friends, your parents, my parents pop pop, unfortunately, had a little medical problem in about 1966. And, hey, had to retire medically. Retire. So Mom and Dad left Panama and came back, Uh, on settled in Maryland, Basically where they both were born.

00:17:42.140 - 00:18:17.170

But leaving behind my sister and, uh, my brother, uh, my sister was working for the Interamerican Geodetic Survey. My brother was working for the Panama Canal Company, and they both married there and stayed there for a number of years later. My sister probably left. I think she did in 73 with her husband and child and two Children, and they retired in Kerrville, Texas, where they currently live.

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Now, my younger brother, Douglas uh, hey. Married and I cannot remember the exact year, but he married a local girl, actually, uh, Sharon Booth was her maiden name. Uh, she's 1/4 generation zone. Ian fourth generation. That's how Maney Grand parents were involved, and parents were involved in the construction of the canal now and dug.

00:18:47.290 - 00:19:21.560

My younger brother was born there at N Con in 1936 and so he stayed there until he retired from the Panama Canal Company. So he was probably there for a total of like, 59 years after he retired. And he also lives in Kerrville, Texas. Mom and Dad are both gone, but you can walk into my house from my sister's house from my brother's house, and you immediately know that there's some connection to the Panama Canal.

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Can you tell me a little bit more about your school experience? Maybe. Did you play sports or anything like that? You know, I was not much into sports, primarily because before I got into high school, I had twice hit my head in play, Uh, enough to give me a brain concussion, uh, minor, but enough for the doctors to say it's not advisable to get into contact sports.

00:19:54.920 - 00:20:18.820

So my involvement with sports at high school level was in the school. Student managers type work on helping the team working with the team, although I didn't play football or basketball. I was the student manager for both of the varsity teams, and that was kind of neat.

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Even though I didn't play, I got to share in some of the glory of the teams. And, uh, it led me to, uh, being allowed to be inducted into what they call the Letterman's club. Because I was part of the varsity team carrying the water bucket or whatever it was.

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But I was still part of the team. Now. My activity in sports in a younger timeframe when I was 10 in that area, was swimming on Peter McGill. As in all of the town's, we had our own pools, and so that was a major activity was swimming.

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And so when I was young, 10 11, 12. I was really active in the swimming teams of those towns. But that didn't carry on into high school. I was active in high school, in music. I played in the band and in the orchestra on duh, mostly, probably my most active part in high school was with the Junior ROTC program, Um, in high school in at Balboa High School.

00:21:25.930 - 00:21:48.320

Uh, the ROTC Army ROTC came to the Canal Zone schools in 1948. And so I was in the first class of the Junior ROTC program, and I was a junior at the time. So the way they start to junior programs is those students who are seniors will be the cadet officers.

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And those students who are juniors would be the cadet N C. O sergeants. So I was a junior. So therefore, I was a cadet sergeant. In fact, I was cadet Master sergeant, and this is an interesting thing. And I'm glad you asked this question because it's really worth I tell my grandchildren about it When I was a cadet, master sergeant, and as a junior in high school, uh, my let my grades slip and they went to the point where the ROTC said If you didn't have a certain grade point average, you couldn't hold a cadet rank.

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And so they took my master sergeant stripes away. Well, people might think that Geez, that's no big deal. That was just high school. But it was a big deal. The fact that they demoted me because my grades weren't good enough, it made a major change in my academic thinking.

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And so the next six weeks, I got my grades back and I got my rank back. And from then on, this was the early part of my junior year. Until my graduation in June of 1950. My grades were high enough that I made to be on a roll four or five times.

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And never before in my school's years did I ever do that. Well, it was all because I wasn't gonna let that happen to me again regarding my grades being inferior. So when I started my senior year in 1949 I was promoted to the rank of cadet Lieutenant Colonel, which was the head ranking cadet officer for the Cadet corps.

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Uh, and for my year, for the remainder of the school year, I was Cadet battalion commander. And that was a significant honor, Aziz. Well, as a magnificent incentive to maintain good grades, Uh, and I'm really proud of that on, you know, my grandchildren. It was a story.

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I tell them because, you know, think about it. You know, when you take away something you really like, Not only is it is embarrassing in front of your student, your peers. But it's also something to think about. You know that what I want in life and so 1950 when I graduated as the ranking cadet, wasn't too much to decide what I wanted to do with my life.

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And so therefore, when I enlisted in the Air Force just less than a year later, it was, I guess, preordained. That's what I was gonna dio. Yes. Uh, did you and your family travel at all when you were younger? You know, traveling was something that, uh, the only traveling that we did was back and forth from the canal zone to the States Way got there in 30 a.

00:24:52.350 - 00:25:20.290

Zay said in 1935. I feel certain that we made a trip in 1936. I know we made a trip in 1938 because I've got the I got the ship's manifest showing that our family traveled back to New York. And of course, that was the days you want from the canal zone toe Haiti and you stopped in Porter Prince for half a day, and then you continue on to New York and then from New York.

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What we would do would take a train down to Baltimore, which is where we spent our vacation. Usually a good two or three months anyway. And I think we did that. Well, I know we did it three times. I never traveled. And Mom and Dad were not traveling type out of Panama other than going back to the States.

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Uh, now, everything we did was there or back to New York. And then just for summer vacation, how was returning back to the States? Was it difficult at all? Was it exciting, uh, to go back to the States? Well, it was kind of it was kind of interesting and exciting because having been raised, I I wasn't born there now, but, you know, going there when I was not not quite forward, that's almost being raised.

00:26:12.840 - 00:26:31.660

I mean, that's almost living there your whole life. Uh, it was exciting to get back to the to the States because primarily for the change of weather. Even though there's going to summertime that we would go at school, summertime school, vacation. It was always exciting because first of all, I like the boat trip.

00:26:31.670 - 00:26:52.780

The boat trips were always a lot of fun for May. My mother, of course, was not at all happy as she was very, very sick on the boat. But, uh, you know, I was young enough that I didn't think too much about it, but I enjoyed it and getting to the States, saying my relatives in Baltimore was always exciting, and that was the only connection we had.

00:26:52.780 - 00:27:13.670

My father had seven sisters and brother and ah, lots of cousins. Fact, uh, 21 1st cousins live in live and some still there in Baltimore. Um, traveling on the boat was a lot of fun. Uh, and I don't remember what year it Waas and I was by myself.

00:27:13.680 - 00:27:37.300

So I think it must have been coming back from the States, New York to Panama. And I have a feeling that it was probably 1950 because when I graduated from high school, I decided that I was going to go to the States and make a living in Baltimore, working for my uncle, who was an electrical contractor.

00:27:37.310 - 00:27:59.450

And I left Canal Zone in June of 1950 traveled to New York on a school boat. Lots of my friends. It was a wonderful trip because all my classmates were there, those that were had just graduated. We're gonna go to the States and continuing college. And I was gonna go make a life for myself in Baltimore on in June.

00:27:59.460 - 00:28:17.180

It probably wasn't a couple of weeks later, I decided that made a mistake, that I didn't wanna live there, and I really, really wanted to go back home. And so I called my pop and I said, I what I want to do And he said, Well, I'll send you a ticket and get you on the next boat.

00:28:17.440 - 00:28:47.750

So in August of 1950 just a couple months after I left, I boarded a ship in New York to come back to Panama. Well, this is has to be the trip because I've tried to determine Bond No one else can remember. But the ship's nurse died, and when she died, evidently she had left in her will that she wanted to be buried at sea, and I remember it distinctly.

00:28:47.760 - 00:29:07.740

The fact that she died that was notified right away and that the ship would stop and a burial service would take place with the nurse, and I can't remember her name and I remember all of us going to the side of the ship for the service ship was dead in the water and they buried her at sea.

00:29:07.740 - 00:29:26.010

And then we took off again, and that had to have been August of 1950. I'm sure that if I could find somebody from the Panama Railroad Company who had involvement with the ship that they could precisely date that and give me the name. That's the traveling that we did.

00:29:26.010 - 00:29:54.840

And I remember that particular trip. So the summer in 1950. What made you decide that it wasn't the place for you to live? It's probably because I just was not happy enough in Baltimore and not comfortable enough working. Onda Starting off. Ah, whole new life in very strange surroundings on.

00:29:54.840 - 00:30:19.990

Maybe Maybe it was that, uh, I just wasn't ready to leave home, you know, I was in 1950. I was 19. Uh, you know, that should be old enough. God knows it's old enough for people to be at war and get killed and so forth. But I wasn't ready to leave home, and so I wanted to go back to Panama, wanted back, back to the canal zone.

00:30:20.000 - 00:30:45.100

And I did, and I immediately went to work for the Panama Canals navigation Department on. I was gonna learn how to be a signalman out of the out it a flamenco island where they would signal the ships as they come towards the canal. And I think I worked out there for about three or four months and realized that I could get a better job.

00:30:45.110 - 00:31:08.180

And I went to work for the Navy on the West Bank of the Canal at Rodman Naval Station, went to work for the Navy and the refrigeration shop, and that was a good job. I was learning a good trade. And then a friend of mine who I had grown up with in the Canal Zone, Jack Budro on We had known each other for many years.

00:31:08.540 - 00:31:36.220

He came back and he came out to my house and he said, uh, I'm going to join the Air Force. Why don't you come with May? And I said, Well, I'm working. He said, Yeah, but you can quit. I said, Okay. And so we did. I quit my job but the Navy and went across the canal and Albert Air Force, based on 27th of April 1951 raised my hand and became Ah, United States Air Force Airman.

00:31:36.230 - 00:32:03.350

And so going back home was pre distressed, predestined, preordained. And then I started my career in the Air Force. Um, I don't can't think of a day. I can't think of a time that I can recall. That was regretful. It was a wonderful life. And I don't think there's too many people that can disagree with that.

00:32:04.340 - 00:32:29.450

Did your siblings they stayed in the Panama zonas? Well, your siblings Well, uh, my brother and sister stayed there just until they retired. I think Jackie left in 73 when her husband retired from the fanatical company and Doug stayed until I think it was 90. Uh, it could have been 89 or he was there doing just cause.

00:32:29.540 - 00:32:55.170

And I believe it was shortly thereafter that he decided, uh, to retire on. And so he retired to the States. So I have no connections there at all. And of course, nobody lives there than the family, But I still have Well, as I said, it's a greatest of memories and the fondest of times in my life.

00:32:55.180 - 00:33:15.920

Can you talk a little bit about the culture growing up? Would you say that it was a pure American culture? Was there some mixture there? Well, that's an interesting thing, because where I lived in the town of Peter McGill, Peter MacGill was right next to a local rate.

00:33:15.930 - 00:33:38.770

That's a expression. Local rate meant the people who were Panamanian people, Panamanian citizens. They weren't American citizens. They weren't white. They were black. They were Jamaican. Uh, mestizos. Uh, the town was called Red Tank. Red Tank was right up against the town of Peter McGill. There was only separated by just a few 100 ft.

00:33:39.240 - 00:34:10.690

And actually there was no gates, no nothing but red Tank people lived in a town by themselves. But they came through our town either walking toe work at the locks or walking toe work into the town where I lived a different thing. I don't ever remember there ever being a any animosities whatsoever to anybody in in some other race or some other ethnic group.

00:34:10.700 - 00:34:39.140

Uh, I The only thing I can remember is being a little concern for my safety when I would go into the Republic of Panama. And by that I mean, they were not necessarily always the friendliest towards the gringos. And so when I was younger and probably a little bit more concerned about my safety, I would feel a little apprehensive if I was going to a movie downtown in Panama.

00:34:39.150 - 00:35:07.980

Which, of course, was nothing more than walking across the street from the Canal Zone into the republic. Once again, there was no gates. There's no senses or anything. Uh, I sometimes had a little feeling of of concern for my safety. I did not have this when I went to the interior of Panama when I was in the interior in in Santa Clara and Gordana and lose on Elva and all the towns up into the interior.

00:35:08.640 - 00:35:32.270

Never was there any concern for that because these were just a whole different kinds of people. They may have been Panamanians. They may have been other than white on they were mawr. Uh, country folks, they were just great people. And they were friendly and invites you in the house and be more friendly.

00:35:32.840 - 00:35:55.620

Um, the only time I had any concern for major concern was in November of in November was when the Panama Republic of Panama had their elections and whenever it had in elections. It was always a very difficult time because they were a little bit out of control.

00:35:56.240 - 00:36:32.160

Um, I loved the Panamanian of culture, mostly in the interior, uh, in the cities. It was not very clean and not as friendly, um, in school and at the at your house. Was there any Spanish speaking going on? Of course. In the school, Spanish was one of the major classes I took Spanish for a couple of years, but I was not too good a student at that time, and so I didn't learn.

00:36:32.160 - 00:36:55.330

But when I learned in the West speaking Spanish and the language was just living there, it was kind of When you're immersed into it, it just becomes part of your nature. Even today, I always on always honing my Spanish, Even though I can't start talking to somebody in Spanish, I can understand and comprehend what's going on by listening to certain words and phrases.

00:36:55.340 - 00:37:15.220

We had a Panamanian lady as a maid. We never had anything other than someone who would come and, uh, come and clean the house. That's all we never had a cook like some people did. We did have somebody who would come. And when I was growing up and would be helped my mom in the house.

00:37:15.220 - 00:37:40.340

But, uh, and she spoke perfectly good English as almost most people did. Uh, just Spanish, I think would have been wonderful had I been mawr conversant some of my classmates that I'm with today, uh, speak Spanish just like it was, you know, primary language because they took mawr advantage of learning than I did.

00:37:40.930 - 00:38:05.150

But when I see somebody speaking Spanish, I don't hesitate to if I if it's not, you know, if it's okay to participate so I can keep my Spanish sharpened up. Um, did you experience any anti American feelings when you were over there? Were you did you experience any of the riots?

00:38:05.180 - 00:38:36.190

Uh, you know, I I don't recall anything truly anti American. In fact, just the opposite. When I went back, Uh, since when I left on a permanent basis, I left in 1976 when I was assigned back to the United States, and coincidentally, I was signed to Panama City, Florida, which is, uh, I was coming from Panama City, Panama, Panama City, Florida And that's where I retired from active duty.

00:38:36.190 - 00:38:55.780

But when I went back again, it was 1999 I went back, and I remember in the Hotel El Panama, which was a large, very large hotel. In fact, it was the hotel that when I was married in 1953 is where my wife and I spent our honeymoon in that hotel.

00:38:55.790 - 00:39:17.520

So in 1999 I remember going back to the hotel and course things were just about to turn over from the United States to Panama in the year 2000. And in 1999 it was June and it was only six months left of the American connection, and then it was gonna disappear.

00:39:17.530 - 00:39:50.180

And I can remember distinctly people in the hotel saying how sorry they were and how fretful they were that the U. S. Connection was gonna be gone forever. Now, obviously, these were people in the service industry, and they recognize the American dollar as anybody would. And here if if the Air Force base was in a closed in in Biloxi, Mississippi, Wow, that would be disastrous for the community because of the money.

00:39:50.190 - 00:40:21.660

I think the Panama people may have thought that the same. But you know what? I don't ever remember having, uh, any nationalist feeling of hate ever. I mentioned a few minutes ago that I did have some concern for my safety. And that may have been because, uh, they're hotheaded nature of the Panamanian police as an example, Andi, especially towards the military.

00:40:21.660 - 00:40:55.910

That was not good, but no, I never experienced anything personally. In fact, it was just the opposite most of the time. Um, can you explain your feelings about the operation? Just cause I think just caused, of course was was a definite requirement. Uh, there's a a point in time when the America and United States has to have to stand up and say no and stand up and put your foot down and stop something that's that's ongoing.

00:40:55.910 - 00:41:15.890

That's not right. Uh, I was very concerned on the 20th of December when this took place and I can remember my brother called May from Panama and it was close to midnight, and I remember him saying, I don't know what's going on, but something is happening.

00:41:15.890 - 00:41:36.380

There's gunfire all over the place and he said, I'm really concerned because Cheryl, that was his daughter is coming back from the States. And she was arriving that night coincidentally from Miami on on air on the flight. And he says, I'm really concerned because I have to go out to the airport to pick up Cheryl.

00:41:37.440 - 00:41:58.030

And I have to say that my major concern was for the safety of my brother, his wife and his child. I had no other family there at the time on DSO. Once, uh, Cheryl was arrived safely on one, she and my brother were home back home in the Canal zone safely.

00:41:58.410 - 00:42:38.230

I was relieved and then sort of excited because 19, 89 I had, of course, been in the service for quite a long. And I had spent a year in Saigon during the height of the war, and so I was a little bit interested in that. My brother here he was a civilian in a combat zone, and not only in a combat zone, but in my old town and in my old high school on, uh so I think it was a very justified just cause to do what they did to bring down the corruption.

00:42:38.600 - 00:43:02.000

Unfortunately, people die in combat and innocent people die in combat. Uh, but I think it was necessary to dio it was also a exceptionally well, I know. If that's gonna gonna say it was a way to tow home the efficiency and proficiency of military technology as well.

00:43:02.010 - 00:43:20.620

We learned a lot in that war we learned. Ah, lot has to do with communication between groups of people that we found were not working good and certainly have been corrected as to the cause and and the reasons for it, I think we did the right thing.

00:43:21.800 - 00:43:51.810

Um, can you talk about maybe your feelings about the U. S. Turnover in general, How you think the future of Panama is looking in the canal? You know, when I lived there and I can remember very clearly my father's helper, Uh, you know, when you're a mechanic, when you're a tradesman and you're not sitting in an office, but you're working on telephones, are working on cables, flights and are working on the machine shop.

00:43:52.200 - 00:44:31.720

Those aircrafts and and all the Americans had a helper on those helpers were Panamanians. And I remember my father's helper was named, um Caballero Caballero. Which means, gentlemen Caballero Yes, means gentlemen and Caballero was my father's helper. And I could remember watching bad work and working with his helper and how incredibly, uh, Caballero, dependent on my father that's telling what to do.

00:44:32.190 - 00:44:51.660

Uh, hey. Couldn't necessarily do it himself on his own initiative. But when he e could remember my father asking for something and he would know what to do, he just had to be told. So I guess that it was somewhat ingrained in my thinking. And there's a lot of people that live there.

00:44:51.670 - 00:45:23.790

So when we left, when the Americans left, when United States gave away everything, that was the American and I truly mean gave away. And that's my major, uh, major objection to the fact that the canal was given away. They didn't pay one penny for anything. I thought, as a lot of people of Panamanians and the Republic of Panama would not be able to run the canal, In my opinion, I didn't think they'd have the competency to do it because I watched them build buildings.

00:45:23.790 - 00:45:45.620

I watched them build apartment complexes and hotels and and over the years, I would see those hotels and buildings start to fall down because they never maintained them and they never took care of them until they fell down. Then they just let it fall down. So I thought, along with a lot of other people, that they're never, ever gonna be able to run the Panama Canal locks.

00:45:46.390 - 00:46:18.200

I'm wrong. I'm the first to admit it, and I have no hesitant to admit it. I was wrong. They're doing a good job. Then they may not necessarily count things the way we dio they met. Ness may not necessarily have a accounting, a system that is equal to ours, But the example is that they may say, uh that we have fewer accidents than the Americans did.

00:46:18.210 - 00:46:39.520

They may say, Oh, yeah, we're doing so good because we don't have many accidents. I'm talking about ship accidents in the canal. Well, and they may say that, but it's because, yes, they may have had the same man of accidents, but they call them differently. They have a category is not the same as the Americans.

00:46:39.530 - 00:46:54.410

And so therefore, if we had a ship hit the locks, that would be an accident or run into the wall. That would be an accident. But maybe Panama doesn't count as an accident. Maybe they have to wait. They do it three times before. And so therefore they have less numbers.

00:46:54.780 - 00:47:22.790

I think they're doing a great job, but there may be some things that maybe not, uh, equally accounted because we call it different than what they called it. Uh, I am in contact even today with the people who are running the Panama Canal Authority. I I have ever since I have been in the military especially.

00:47:23.180 - 00:47:43.920

I've always been an advocate of the Panama Canal and the operation of the Locks. And so therefore, when my brother was there a in a position of responsibility and authority, he would provide me with the current information about the operation, and I would use it in my speeches that I gave in the military a t Air Force Academy.

00:47:43.920 - 00:48:11.180

I was called upon a number of times to speak to professors on the operation of the Panama Canal, and I continually do that even today, here in 2000 and 10. I'm still giving briefings on the Panama Canal. So as recently as Two weeks ago, I received the most current version of the Power Point presentation on the expansion of the Panama Canal.

00:48:11.190 - 00:48:36.660

I have it with me now, and I intend to show it to my classmates at Dorn. Our reunion here are classmates are having our 60th reunion from Balboa. So I have current information that I'm going to pass on. And it's and people ask me even today that I know and no May questions about the canal because I continue to maintain currency and what's going on.

00:48:36.670 - 00:48:54.350

So when I say they're doing a good job, I really believe I'm saying that from some sort of honesty and some sort of forthrightness, because I see what's going on. And I think they're doing a good job, and I haven't found anybody who will tell me differently.

00:48:54.360 - 00:49:28.600

They think they're doing a good job, too. What do you think draws you to keep that connection with the Panama Canal? Uh huh. You know, that's a That's also a question that I've often thought about, and I have to go back that you are what you were when, and I think my whole life was shaped by the fact that I was raised in that kind of wonderful environment of the significant engineering seat of of ever of history.

00:49:29.170 - 00:49:56.010

Uh, the Americans who built the canal, who who engineered it, who felt the way to go was the way it ended up, were able to, uh, take, uh, early concepts of construction and turn it into such a marvelous engineering feat. Now, I'm not an engineer. I have nothing even close to that kind of academic background.

00:49:56.010 - 00:50:25.580

But to think what they had to do to build the Panama Canal in 1914 when it opened. And it's just always been eso ingrained in my in my pride that, uh, even today I feel it's important. And so, uh, just I don't recall when it was, but within the last week or so, someone said something that had to do with water or something.

00:50:25.580 - 00:50:50.280

And I mentioned about the canal and its association with water and well, the conversation ended up with talking about the Panama Canal and and you know, so many people. A few moments ago, I mentioned that I used to talk to the engineers at the Air Force Academy in the in the Department of Mechanical engineering.

00:50:50.560 - 00:51:15.690

It was amazing how many of those full colonels and those officers really did not have a full understanding of how the canal worked on. I just reveled in the fact that I could tell them how it work. It's amazing, uh, the construction that's going on now that the Panamanian Panama Canal Authority says will be completed by 2000 and 14.

00:51:16.160 - 00:51:37.490

Um, it's it will be. I hope my life last long enough to see this happen because it's gonna be amazing what they are going to dio and they're going to do without the help of the United States. And it is, you know, we're not there were not involved in this recon in this expansion.

00:51:37.960 - 00:52:00.750

So what they're going to dio is proof when I say they're doing a good job, I think it's proof because they're making a new canal. Do you think this legacy of pride over the canal has continued into further generations, like with your grandchildren that you mentioned you?

00:52:00.750 - 00:52:33.680

Really? You really have some soul searching questions because you see, even though, uh, I had two Children born there, uh, but they were so young when they left. They don't have the connection that ideo. And even though, uh, I have everything in my house that reflects my youth and my connection to the canal Uh, I don't find any of my grandkids really excited about that.

00:52:34.250 - 00:52:59.210

Maybe, uh, maybe the oldest who who is just now entered the, uh, the Academy of FBI up in Quantico, Virginia. He just recently this past month became a student at the academy. Hey, has an interest, uh, on interest to ask questions. And when he sees things, he will ask for clarification and things about the canal.

00:52:59.220 - 00:53:52.970

But I you know, I was teaching Air Force ROTC for 15 years after I retired from the Air Force. And so where I was teaching in high school, I would ask questions like, uh, do you know where the Panama Canal is? And it was shameful. The number of students that didn't have the background in education, these refreshment to tell me where the Panama Canal Waas They had no idea where it waas Uh, and then I always like to stretch their mind by having them think I would say, show a map of the Isthmus of Panama and show him how in the morning, you could see the sun coming up in the Pacific Ocean on setting in the Atlantic Ocean.

00:53:53.350 - 00:54:08.830

Now, if you lived in the canal Zone and in the morning when the sun came up out of the east, the way the shape of the Isthmus of Panama is, it would actually be coming up in what you consider to be the Pacific Ocean, because that's where you live next.

00:54:08.830 - 00:54:27.820

Oh, and it's set over on the other side, which would be the Atlantic side that would have Atlantic has to be east. So I mean, you think that way. And I would ask these cadets and 99% had no idea what the answers were. I couldn't follow it, and I don't really think that has a thing to do with.

00:54:27.820 - 00:54:43.870

Maybe there's a lack of interest in the Panama Canal. I think it has to do with a lack of a lack of education that's been provided to our Children over the recent years and why we're so far behind in math, science and math, science and engineering.

00:54:43.870 - 00:55:06.350

Things sort of. ITT's scary so as to whether there might be a continuing interest in the Panama Canal. I'm not happy about that. I don't think there is Mhm. Well, um, is there anything else you'd like to add? Maybe one more happy memory about the canal.

00:55:07.240 - 00:55:38.070

Um, I'm trying t o come to that. And, uh um hmm. I honestly can't put my finger on one thing other than the fact that my youth and I have to say this would be from the age of eight to about 15 16 had to have been the most exciting time of my life.

00:55:38.840 - 00:56:30.840

Uh, knowing thinking back of where I lived and the fact that, uh, everything was so open and free and eso unencumbered with with thoughts or concerns about of your life being in danger, uh, knowing that you could leave your house and walk to school and then stopped by the clubhouse and have a milkshake on, Or go to the clubhouse and go to the movies and walk up into the jungles and just a few blocks and spend a day at swimming holes and and go home and start toe work on a kayak that I was making under my house.

00:56:32.030 - 00:56:50.230

You know, houses. Ah, lot of houses in those days were built on stilts, and they were built on stilts to keep, you know, animals and insects out of the house. Well, you know, because the stilts were creates sodas, So animals at birth I mean, the insects.

00:56:50.240 - 00:57:09.270

The point when I say under the houses, there was always an openness to the house, and and so I was building a kayak. Uh, my father helped me, and I remember covering it with with canvas and painting the canvas, a gray paint. And when the paint dried, it made the canvas, uh, waterproof.

00:57:09.280 - 00:57:29.150

And so there we had this little kayak. It couldn't have been more in 8 ft long, and and we would build our own and then go out on the lake. And so, trying to put together a single moment of truly wonderful happy memories, it has to be, uh, my life is a canal zone.

00:57:29.150 - 00:57:51.410

Brat had to be a some nation of what would be happy. I can truly be called ah, Canal zone brat and have nothing but a smile on my face. Well, that's certainly a happy thought. This interview with Thank you so much for meeting with us. Thank you.

00:57:51.420 - 00:58:18.600

Great record. I'm really happy to participate. Uh, I was asked to do this, that fs shoes of World War Two Institute. And, uh, it was a pleasure, because when it was all done and when it was edited and cleaned up and copied, I made copies for each of my five Children and therefore they had a record of their father's life as a young boy.

00:58:18.610 - 00:58:24.350

So this will also accommodate that e. Thank you. Good, good.