00:00:00.240 - 00:00:21.510

thistles. Candace Alice on July 7th with Diana Dombrowski and Jon and Karen Deming talking about growing up in life in the Panama Canal Zone. Um, so I guess what kind of started the beginning? How did you guys come to the zone or you? First generation E.

00:00:21.520 - 00:00:43.030

I was first generation. I was came to the canal zone in 1955 when I was 12 years old. My father got a job down there. He was a magistrate there for, I guess, 20 years. And then I stayed there until I was 18. I went to college in the States, so I was there about six years.

00:00:43.100 - 00:01:14.670

Just how I got there. E was I was born in Gorgas Hospital. Can Con Canal Zone. Um 1944. My parents met down there. They both went down his Children, So But I neither Neither of them were born okay In the canal, sell E was First general, first generation born there on eso.

00:01:14.670 - 00:01:39.960

I lived there for 18 years until I went away to college. So I grew up there and and, um And what kind of work did your parents dio while they were there? My mother's father, Um, there's a little bit of history there. How he got there was interesting, uh, my mother's Irvington, New Jersey, and my grandfather.

00:01:39.960 - 00:02:00.350

My mother's side. He and his brother owned a plumbing business. And, um, I guess it was before World War Two, probably somewhere in the in the Vietnam during the Depression, during the Depression. Right after he lost it, they lost their plumbing business. It was out of work, and it was a real struggle.

00:02:00.940 - 00:02:22.860

You saw an ad in The New York Times looking for plumbers toe work for the Panama Canal. So he answered the ad and they sent him a ticket, told him bring a suitcase and told my grandmother and my mother, my mother was an only child, that he would let them know when they could come down.

00:02:22.870 - 00:02:43.350

So six months later, they packed up just their clothing and took the ship down there. And that's how they ended down there. My dad very similar story, but it was It was earlier than that, and from Baltimore, my grandfather decided that he was a pipe fitter.

00:02:43.460 - 00:03:00.750

He wanted to go. He loved the fish in the Chesapeake, and he want to go to Panama and work. And he heard that was good fishing. And he took his four Children then and they went down, and then they had three more. So that's how they ended up there.

00:03:00.760 - 00:03:17.100

And then my parents met down there. Um, and the cannoli, the hospital you mentioned which side? It was at all on the Pacific side. Pacific Gorgas Hospital. Okay. Did you guys do a lot of moving back and forth between the Pacific and Atlantic? Um, we did not.

00:03:17.110 - 00:03:44.170

But there were my father had, uh there were seven siblings and his three sisters married people down there, and they lived on the Atlantic side. Their jobs, Their husbands have jobs in Atlantic Side. But the 44 boys, we're always on the Pacific side, and it was relatively travel back and forth.

00:03:44.180 - 00:04:08.550

Yeah, we thought it was a long drive. 50 miles, and it was like, Oh, drive over there again. But we went back forth to visit relatives. And what side were you on? The Pacific side. But my father was a judge there, and he would work on both sides when they had a judge on the Atlantic side of Judge on the Pacific side in a district court judge.

00:04:09.340 - 00:04:32.100

And when the judge on the Atlantic side I was on vacation, my dad right train back and forth every day. It was very easy to get back and forth what we remember because we had a good train system and a fairly good highway. Clearly good. I mean, we thought it was good until we came to the United States on vacation.

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Then we realized, Yeah. Uh huh. Mm. Did you come to the States very often. Um, if if I remember correctly, the the the leaves system was pretty much the way the military is today. You, I think I think that you've got 30 days vacation a year.

00:04:58.730 - 00:05:17.850

You could save it up. Mm. So some families would wait until they had three months vacation or close to it. And then they would come up for the summer and stay with relatives. Uh, because everybody, everybody had a home of record somewhere. The United States, the Americans.

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And we came to the States about every three years or four years for maybe two months because my dad and his father and his uncles, his brothers, all fished, they had thio. They had to have their fishing time. So we didn't. Some families came every year for a month.

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They took their took their leave way, had there were three ships that went back and forth. And but we didn't because of the fishing, but yeah, so and it was like the excitement to come to United States. It was it was like nothing that you've ever experienced was like, Wow, it was really It was so yeah, there's just so much to see.

00:06:20.660 - 00:06:36.690

And dio Was this zone a bit isolated? Did you feel? Is that Is that why people were so excited to go to the U. S. It was the only yes. And you had so many relatives in the United States and very few relatives came to Panama.

00:06:36.700 - 00:06:56.510

I came by to say the canal zone, Um back then it was very expensive. Um, they have to take a ship down. And so everybody look forward to going back and seeing. Sometimes it was your grandparent's one time. It was my grand parents were living in California.

00:06:56.510 - 00:07:19.230

So, uh, for a while, and to see maybe, you know, cousins from the other side. Yeah, it was just in the shop way, relied on whatever commissary got on the commissary. Waas. We were civilians, but it's pretty much operated like a military base. You had way called the commissary.

00:07:19.230 - 00:07:41.350

They called P X. So whatever they didn't get, we look and we look in Panama. But we relied on the Sears catalog big time. Everybody in the John. Everybody in the Canal Zone knew when the Sears catalog was being delivered. What would you say you miss most about not being able to shop wasn't just being able to go out and buy clothes, stuff like that.

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I think once I became once he became a teenager, it was the shoes and the clothes because we all pretty much got magazines. There was always a I think it was good housekeeping and 17 magazine way back then and you'd see all the styles that everybody all the kids in the states were wearing in his shoes and way way were very limited.

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But we would take because we were in the country that had a lot of a piece work. You could the women in Panama. The Panamanians made most of their clothing so we could take a picture out of 17 magazine or any magazine of something that and go find fabric in a store in Panama.

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The commissary also fabric when you just take it toe to a dressmaker. No pattern, anything. We showed her the picture and she'd say, Okay, come back on Friday and should have it done very reasonably. Three bucks, four bucks. Eso we did have a way didn't suffer.

00:09:01.710 - 00:09:21.050

If you know that way, we could get the outfits made if we could find the fabric so way. We're always in all of what kids the states were wearing. And so we come to the States. We'd always you know, it's always I got my shoes. You gotta buy whatever you you know, whenever you could buy and stay within your budget.

00:09:21.440 - 00:09:51.810

Well, that sounds very crafty. Um, how about differences? Maybe in housing as faras, the US vs Panama. Was there a lot of cooperative housing Panama living together? Or was it more single family homes? Ah, lot of a lot of cooperative housing. There were also a lot of single family, but a lot of families a lot of new employees started out in 12 family housing for family housing.

00:09:53.310 - 00:10:26.390

I think my parents lived in every model house there pretty much, and some of them it's I can't remember any house I lived in that that that that was uncomfortable or any complaints. I mean, it's just we didn't know any any any difference. Um, everything was always taking care of us always.

00:10:26.400 - 00:10:48.760

There was always somebody mowing the grass, trimming the trees. It was it was just actually, we came down my dad a congressional appointment as a judge, and we got a single family home. Quite frankly, I felt some resentment from other kids. E didn't start out in a 12 family home, but so it is kind of went, Got through that.

00:10:49.220 - 00:11:20.570

Well, you're going to hear a lot about the housing as you do these interviews. Um, because there were a lot of different areas of where people lived, and, um, and some of the some of the areas were very were isolated. They might have only been a 20 minute car drive away, but that was a long distance back then, and they all had their own little sub, uh, colonies, I should say.

00:11:21.040 - 00:11:46.120

But the interesting part about the housing Waas. You were assigned housing depending on your years of service. And how many Children you had, A number of boys and girls. Number of boys and girls, right? Who was living in a household with you? Um, it didn't have.

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Well, it did have to do with your rank and file, so to speak. If you were if you were a congressional appointment, like his dad, Waas or you were high level had a high level job. Well, that would be a government appointment. Appointed job. They had special housing.

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You didn't start out the lower level. But like Prudence is, my father was an electrician's and there could have been, which was considered a blue collar. There could have been a family living right attached to us. That was white collar or next door. It all had to do with the year service.

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Some people came down and they were already in their twenties. My father started right out of high school as an apprentice. So it all it all had to do with your years of service on your Children. Like and you only needed a two bedroom house or apartment.

00:12:40.620 - 00:13:09.410

That's what you got then. If you had another child and it was a boy. You still maybe didn't qualify for another bedroom. But if it was a girl, then they separate. In our case, my grandparent's slipped with us. So that kind of gave us. Um um extra bedroom way moved, and they would post it Think it was every month on the wall of the post office, a certain date, everybody.

00:13:09.420 - 00:13:24.730

Everybody was looking to move and they wanted they wanted to move. They would go to see what was available, what was coming up as people moved around and left retired and you put your name in and then you just waited to see if you know, if you if you qualified and they have, you know, you were next in line.

00:13:24.740 - 00:13:39.720

So you're gonna hear a lot about the how the housing work down there, because you really just you really couldn't just say I wanna live on that street and I wanna live in that house now. There is a good there was a chance that that could happen if it all worked out.

00:13:39.730 - 00:14:00.950

But because from what I've gathered, it seemed that there was a lot of moving and even between the Atlantic and Pacific side. A lot of moving just based on, you know, your job called for and in some cases, their work, because I have classmates that started out in the Pacific side and then graduated from the high school on the other side and vice versa.

00:14:00.960 - 00:14:26.950

And but none of my close friends that I that I associated with moved like that. But there was there, but there was a lot of that. Mhm but the But the Atlantic side was a much smaller area, the Pacific side. So the majority of people have done the Pacific side right?

00:14:26.960 - 00:14:42.330

And as far as the Atlanta being smaller, would you say it's smaller townships more spread out, more rural? And then I know the Pacific site has Panama City. Did that make it more lively or Yeah, I believe we have a lot more to do on the Pacific side.

00:14:42.350 - 00:15:17.540

Yeah, Gamble is in the middle of a gamble. A little. Yeah, and what's interesting is you'll feel fine if you do many interviews with people who, uh, lived most of the time in Gamboa. You will find that they were very, very close group of people because they were They were really It was, Yeah, it was like a like a like a a subdivision or development like a that we have here, kind of isolated.

00:15:18.040 - 00:15:32.540

And everybody who lived there pretty much worked for a certain part of the canal because there was judging division was there, and that's where a lot of and they had a movie theater and had a commissary, and they probably team club. But there wasn't much of a swimming pool.

00:15:32.550 - 00:16:02.970

That was, I think they had a They had a golf course. They have a high school? No, no, it was only two high schools. Well, too. Yeah, actually, this'll is an embarrassment on my part, but off the record it zbig tape when I e when I grew up there Well, there was segregation until the sixties E was gone in 62.

00:16:03.440 - 00:16:32.360

But, um, there was a town called Paris. Oh, and it was right on the near the mere Floyd's locks. And they were all they were. They were. There were none US employees, Panamanians or from from from the islands, they had housing for them. So they worked for the Panama Canal, But they were considered, Um, they were segregated.

00:16:33.140 - 00:16:58.570

They had a high school and I didn't much pay attention when I was in high school. Is toe even think about? Well, where did the kids who lived? Because it was quite a big community, actually. But they were all, you know, kind of by themselves. And I was living in Miami and I was taking golf lessons, and, um, this guy next to me had a sticker on his car and I was getting my golf clubs out.

00:16:58.580 - 00:17:13.830

He was just leaving and it was a black man and I said, Oh, I said, I said, You're from the canal zone And you said, Yes, we're talking that I grew up there and I So what did I say to him? I said, Oh, I said, Did you did any graduate about the same time I did, he said.

00:17:13.840 - 00:17:37.050

He said, Did you graduate from Babel High School or Crystal Ball High School? He just looked at me. E graduated from parade, So high school I I was, So I just it never because they didn't they, but we had football games and we had baseball games and we had all the sports Onley between the Atlantic and the Pacific side.

00:17:37.840 - 00:17:59.900

I don't know who they played. I have no idea if they just played each other. And actually, that's probably an untold story. You won't get that. That's the first time I've heard of it, that high school, because something that we're a little interested in is, of course, the racial tension in the area and just how stateside politics were affecting.

00:17:59.960 - 00:18:21.850

Stop talking specifically about the civil rights movement and all that led up to it and how that was playing out in Panama and the Zone. At the time, the military was just We had a few black students in our school, but they were military because the military kids also went to school with us.

00:18:22.220 - 00:18:40.730

Don't forget there was that set of kids. Yes, every two years they would come in two years or three years. Way did have some Panamanians that went to our school. They paid tuition to go to the American schools, right? But that was usually the wealthy. They were usually the wealthy kind of unions, and there were a lot of but parades.

00:18:40.730 - 00:18:57.960

So I just was Remember John, remember I came home. I came home that day. Isis, I said I have no idea where my head was When I was, I didn't even dawn on me. I worked construct. I always worked. When I was in, before I went to Panama, I had paper routes and did all that.

00:18:57.960 - 00:19:11.860

I was down there. I couldn't work. Finally, I got a job in construction 50 cents an hour, and I was the only white person working construction. Of course I get and they were giving me a hard time. Has taken 50 cents an hour from somebody else.

00:19:11.860 - 00:19:29.870

I said, Well, I wanna work, too. I worked with a young man from Parisian. I mean, he and I put all housing developments was being built, I guess. La Boca. And he and I all summer long, put in Windows. That's what we did. And Alan. But he's my age, and I would wonder what happened to him.

00:19:29.870 - 00:19:46.260

I'm sure he's still down there, but But he show up every morning from Paris. So, you know, maybe in the only white kid there, they kind of pushed me a little bit, see how hard I could work. And after about a week, they figured out. I was serious than your job.

00:19:49.140 - 00:20:04.560

Eso I knew what was going on. I didn't I didn't grow up. Down there was a kid. I grew up. There's a teenager down. I was there six years in left. Mm hmm. And it was a great six years. Learned a lot learned stuff I would never have learned otherwise.

00:20:04.570 - 00:20:25.030

But I knew about this, but there was never any tension. There was never any. There was never any. Um, it was just a matter of fact, I guess. And people lived in praise. So we're absolutely thrilled that they were working for the for the Panama Canal Company.

00:20:25.040 - 00:20:51.060

They were very happy living there then, you know, trying to make it in Panama City because Panama was not as prosperous a zit is today. Don't know. Those people had a good job. I'm sure they had good jobs, had good benefits, and they but it was just It was just It was just a different different time.

00:20:51.060 - 00:21:11.500

That all changed, of course, by the by the late sixties and I was gone, so I don't know. I hear from other people how that changed after the 60. If you Google American language newspapers in Panama. I was doing that for some reason last weekend. There's a a bunch of links toe what they would call the silver White.

00:21:11.510 - 00:21:31.850

People were paying gold, gold and silver. There's something that was associated with thinking it might be using called the Silver Newspapers. So there's a There's some information out there I just stumbled across. Thank you. That's interesting. I'm sorry. What did you guys say? You actually left the zone.

00:21:31.930 - 00:21:55.060

I graduated in 1961 went to college in Nebraska. Okay. And then I left in 62. Okay, so it was before those riots, which I knew kind of changed the entire Yeah. Okay. Way. We're still there? Yeah, very minor. They were ever. It was It was It was probably he actually was.

00:21:55.440 - 00:22:13.160

The riots were pretty much didn't involve the canal zone at all, But the university students would be in an con, right? Yeah, right on the right, on the border. Okay. But but it was just It was It was escalating. It was part of our started my education.

00:22:13.160 - 00:22:36.920

I have a Nebraska farm boy, but it was it was an American colony. Everything was We never locked our doors. We never locked our cars. We were There was there was nothing stopping a Panamanian from coming, going coming over the line and driving up our street parking, you know?

00:22:36.920 - 00:22:57.400

I mean, it was just It was never a problem. Everybody. Military bases all had guard gates. You You know, you just couldn't. You just couldn't get in for any reason. But in the canal zone itself, it was wide open. But it was, I guess, just everybody had made.

00:22:57.510 - 00:23:14.840

The maids came on Busses. And but it was We could walk it anywhere we wanted T o e wouldn't do it. I would recommend some places today. Yeah, I've heard that we were kids. We could go. And my father being the judge, probably put a lot of people in jail over time.

00:23:15.050 - 00:23:28.950

A long time I used to get on him. I used to get on a bus and take writing lessons in Panama. I was 11 years old. My parents didn't worry I'd get on the bus. I knew where to get off. It was always a girlfriend going with me.

00:23:28.960 - 00:23:51.360

Way beyond Achieva with all the Panamanians and live chickens and I mean, it was just the way it was. Yeah, just the way it was. And nobody was. Nobody felt, um no, Nobody was fearful. Nobody was. No, it was just a great I wouldn't. I would do it all over again.

00:23:51.370 - 00:24:08.280

It was, You know, what was your guys? Opinions on the education system. Those in place? They're very good. Yeah, E. Actually, I got an excellent engine. High school education. I mean, it was very lucky to get that education. Which of the two high schools have you attend?

00:24:08.290 - 00:24:28.180

What about law? Okay, which was okay. Yeah, this is exciting. My guess is there wasn't a teacher, um, in junior high and high school, it didn't have a master's degree. I would guess. They were very well educated teachers that came down. Did you go to Balboa's?

00:24:28.180 - 00:25:05.110

Well, okay. And I know sports in the football in the rivalry was a huge thing. Did you guys participate in that? Football can watch did do that. My only participation was twirling the baton. That's fun. Sports was a sports even in in, uh, not the extracurricular sports, but even the way all had all had to take sports every six weeks had changed all four years of high school.

00:25:05.120 - 00:25:36.000

You had to play basketball track, uh, field hockey every six every six weeks. It was It was a different sport. And including six weeks of swimming every here way girls hated that way. Didn't have hair dryers. We didn't. You know, if you had and you got if you lucked lucked out and got swimming first period in the morning, you're, You know, back in our day, like you girls all wear your hair and you just let it dry.

00:25:36.000 - 00:25:56.360

And, you know, you were long whatever, but no, we all way all slept in rollers all night. So if you had swimming first period, you're bathing. Cap leaked. You're just the rest of your day was ruined. Uh, that's funny. Do high schools offer a lot of extra curricular activities for the students?

00:25:56.360 - 00:26:28.350

Yes, a lot of sports. Uh, extracurricular. And, um, yeah, big sports was very, very, um, popular. And besides that, how would you describe an average Saturday night for a high school student growing up there like, um, lucky for us, it was. Best thing. Is is and I forget who I don't know who was responsible for it.

00:26:29.030 - 00:26:45.880

I can't remember now, but they built a team club for us on. It was a good size, and it serves snacks. And it was always all the music and, you know, jukebox and all that. Of course, there was never any drinking. And smoking was probably the worst thing back then.

00:26:45.890 - 00:27:07.180

I mean, there was drinking, but, um uh, so we always had We always had the teen club. We always had curfews. I mean, very few of us stayed out past, what, 10, 30 11 o'clock at night. Teen club close. Parents picked us up. If we didn't drive, couldn't drive, do we were 17 in there.

00:27:07.640 - 00:27:28.600

So, um, with the movie theater was cheap. Everybody went to the movies, and now by that, but it was their condition. And most of us didn't have air conditioning. Um, there was no TV there would. Towards the end, when we left, nobody ever run into Panama until we got our driver's license.

00:27:28.600 - 00:27:51.220

And there were a few little miniature golf places and a few little nightclubs. It was it Was it easy to have a part time job there as a high school student? No, e probably got one because my father was a judge. Somehow he knew somebody who knew somebody who got a contractor to hire me.

00:27:51.230 - 00:28:12.960

And I don't think the contractor really wanted to hire me. They worked for the first few days. See if I was serious. Baby sitting. I babysat. I had a summer job one summer. Uh, good. First, we're still good friends. There was. Oh, it was It was the spouse of an employee in Karen do.

00:28:13.340 - 00:28:32.350

And she was working on her PhD in archaeology on She had an area in Panama that she was involved in the excavation. So she built this place was kind of in a junk, sort of in the jungle. We would get dropped off. We have to walk down this dirt road.

00:28:32.350 - 00:28:49.700

Then there would be this covered area. She would bring the stuff back where it was all mapped out. So she put this stuff where, uh, in them on the map of where, where it was, where she really found it. Judy and I would have described these pieces of pottery.

00:28:49.710 - 00:29:07.710

That's what we did with buckets of water. We'd scrub it, We got I don't know, 50 cents an hour or something like that. We did that one summer when we were maybe 16. That was lucky to get that job. It was hard. It was. That was actually one thing that was very hard because you got a beach, all something.

00:29:07.890 - 00:29:29.360

What? You spend too much time in the sun and on a lot of a lot of kids came stateside. In the summer time, people will be gone, and and everybody had maids. And then the government, The Pan Canal company itself. They paid people thio washed. Well, we had someone who washed our car way paid.

00:29:29.370 - 00:29:46.390

No government didn't pay for that. We did, but it was It didn't cause they grab, they cut the grass. You don't have yard work, get a maid that cleans your house. You paid for that, but it was very, very cheap. And so there really wasn't any, um, jobs available.

00:29:46.400 - 00:30:07.850

Baby sitting was the big thing. And maybe lifeguarding in, like, the pools in the army bases and stuff Navy basis the lifeguards. And maybe, you know, some guys were caddies at the golf course, But other than that, uh, ushers in the movie theater, there were There were a few jobs, but not very many.

00:30:08.540 - 00:30:27.120

Um, And then once you I think it was Once you graduate from high school, you could get a summer job working, working in the administration building. I did do that that summer. And then when I came back after one year of college, I forgot I had worked in a newspaper down.

00:30:27.130 - 00:30:45.210

Yeah, so, yeah, they were in power. I worked in a English speak English language newspaper. Once I I made a mistake. I didn't call him up and ask him if I could have a job. Second, someone so tired. Somebody else. E just forgot. You had to.

00:30:45.210 - 00:31:08.940

Really? You really had to search for the jobs. You really? You really did know somebody. Okay. Yeah. Mhm. Were there any, uh, how our holiday celebrated? Is there anything you know, distinctly different than from maybe Chris? Because I know that I'm trying to recall from last year the, um the tree burning the bonfire burning in.

00:31:08.940 - 00:31:28.640

A lot of people did that just any any little, you know, story like that, or how you know, the people in his own kind of created their own version of Christmas Maybe there on Christmas traditions or Thanksgiving, even New Year's worth of July. Well, July, we always had a parade.

00:31:28.650 - 00:31:48.370

July 4th Parade courts back then fire fireworks. Firecrackers were allowed so way were always burning ourselves way. We're even. The parents look forward to July 4th so they could blow up these things. And, you know, I remember my dad would What was it called? They would like this thing.

00:31:49.440 - 00:32:06.760

It was like a incense stick stick. What you call it a punk. Yeah, it was called a punk stick, and we'll just keep it lit. And then whenever we wanted toe throw a firecracker, we take the firecracker and stick it on there and then throw it.

00:32:06.770 - 00:32:30.270

And luckily, I don't think anybody was seriously hurt. But it was kind of it was kind of wild and crazy on you. Christmas was always everybody lit up their house. Everybody decorated and Santa was writing an alligator. It wasn't anything that looked like snow or anything that was always tropical.

00:32:30.640 - 00:32:53.750

And Christmas was a big thing. And we have toe. Everybody was waiting for the shipment of trees. Of course, by the time they reached Panama on the commissary had a for sale. Half the needles were missing already anyway. And way used to joke that you could hear the needles falling on the tile floor a light long.

00:32:53.760 - 00:33:17.170

So by the time Christmas was over, get the trees were so dry that the bonfires were fantastic. They had gangs that would you go around all your neighbors and they promise you the tree so three gangs would go out there and they would, uh, collect the trees.

00:33:17.170 - 00:33:34.840

But you have to hide them and try to find someone who did have a garage or some place where you could hide the trees because everybody was stealing the trees for everybody else because everybody wanted to have the largest bonfire. It was a big to do whole neighborhoods with when they, when they were gonna like the month for everybody, had their marshmallows and their hot dogs.

00:33:34.840 - 00:33:59.180

And everybody assumes that they got the fired down to when they could cook the food. Everybody, everybody picks their hot dogs and marshmallows, parents and kids. And it was what you dio was special. Actually, another time when e. Thought you talk about close just before school every year, they figure ship full of clothes into the commentary.

00:33:59.190 - 00:34:30.340

Of course, they have 15 shirts that we're all alike. So first day of school, everybody, I'll have the same shoes. Mm. And the, uh, Anyway, the holidays. Thanks. Thanksgiving. I don't know what other people did, but that way somebody relatives. My dad there was seven Children and my grandma, My mother was an only child, but they were just cousins, and and And we would kind of rotate around who was who was having it.

00:34:30.350 - 00:34:47.570

And, um, maybe they go to the Atlantic side or they come to Pacific side, we'd all get together, and that was a big to dio. And, um, if if if, if you're the turkey you were gonna cook was really too large to cook in your of our ovens were weren't that large.

00:34:47.680 - 00:35:04.530

You just take your turkey to the, um, the clubhouse. Now, the clubhouse was the central restaurant and had the pool in the movie theater, and, you know, and they would cook it for you. They just tell you what time to come to get up. My dad would go pick up the turkey and bring it home.

00:35:04.530 - 00:35:30.730

And it's a convenient service. Yeah, it was really a big military invasion. The nail on the head way were in the military later on in life, but it would need to soothe. Ran a lot like a military base. It was. And school supplies. They all showed up at the same time you were on it didn't matter.

00:35:30.730 - 00:35:52.180

I went to parochial school for six up through sixth grade, and then I went to junior high high school, public and even in it didn't matter where you went to school. The parochial school was part of the canal zone. Um, we must have paid tuition, though.

00:35:52.180 - 00:36:17.620

I think to go there, I'm guessing minimal or whatever. But there was a week that the commissary had school supplies in and you went and they had this special building. It was huge. And in it were rows and rows off packages, all the school supplies that you would go for ST Mary school for for Balboa Elementary, junior high high school, whatever.

00:36:17.630 - 00:36:38.330

And everything was already sealed and wrapped in brown paper. And you went and you just got your package. You pay for it. And when you got home, you open up and then it was all all your school supplies were already already packaged for you. That's easy to Yeah, So it was very, very regulated.

00:36:38.410 - 00:37:00.760

Everything was regulated. Well, if you you had to behave yourself or if you misbehaved, your parents would be shipped out of the country. Did you hear about that happening? Anybody? Nobody that I know were there. Well, there was There was one. And I mean, I knew who he Waas.

00:37:00.760 - 00:37:21.230

He wasn't my you know, my class or whatever, But the story waas he stole something from the commissary. My guess is he had done it on a time before that. I don't think one incident like that they ship you out, but by the end of the week that they were gone.

00:37:22.230 - 00:37:40.750

Gone? Oh, yeah, it was. Do you know what he was stealing? Or he was just e guess that didn't happen. Thio didn't. But you know, some kids have a problem that way. My guess is they had a problem with him and nobody knew it. Then all of a sudden they said, Okay, this is it.

00:37:41.530 - 00:38:00.050

But I'll tell you another story that kids get into trouble and to this day, some adults will come up to me and say your dad changed my life because what he would do a young man who got in trouble, he'd say you can either go to jail or you join the military.

00:38:00.420 - 00:38:21.170

Uh huh. And the ones that joined the military got straightened out. A lot of them. I've been approached by several people over the years that have told me that my father did that for them at a time They didn't get it. But after the fact that I realized that he helped, But there was not a lot of problems down there.

00:38:21.180 - 00:38:40.960

What would you say the most common crime be in his own? Just, I would just say juvenile delinquent. Just kids being kids, kids being kids, maybe two. Maybe a speeding ticket or a car car, speeding ticket or probably just like one of you guys were okay.

00:38:41.820 - 00:39:07.820

Yeah, but there weren't any there. Weren't any. No, no, no, no. Hmm. No gangs or anything like that. Okay, um, what was it like leaving the zone I know Took to come back to the United States and go to college and do that was difficulty probably harder for me than John because I left.

00:39:07.820 - 00:39:30.540

I was the oldest. And so I left. My father and my father died when I was 16 and and I was the oldest. So I was kind of, you know, I kind of was That was hard because I felt like maybe I should have should have stayed down there to help because my brother's 11 was 11 years younger than me.

00:39:31.520 - 00:39:49.740

But But once I got to the once, I you know, once I got used to living in the States And then, of course, John and I, John was in school college for eight years. We got Meryl using college. Um, I didn't have any desire to live down there.

00:39:49.750 - 00:40:15.620

My mom had moved to Florida, and my family was, you know, all in Florida then. But it was hard when everybody was still there. My sister and my brother and my mom and and because you couldn't just got a phone and call because that if it was an emergency or something that you would call with all the all the phone lines were under the ocean cables.

00:40:15.650 - 00:40:28.620

So and it was expensive, so you could talk and I'd say something And then there was this big long delay. And then my mother would answer. So what? You just said what you had to say real quick and got off the phone because it was expensive.

00:40:28.630 - 00:40:43.920

It was so most of it was through the mail and it would take a week or more for a letter to get back and forth. So that was the hardest part because you didn't have three communication that you have now. Now you can probably on a cell phone call for nothing.

00:40:43.930 - 00:41:04.110

Yeah, and, uh, email and e mail classmates and kind of all the time, we didn't have any of that. That was the hardest. Because you'll probably hear that from other people our age that you just were cut off from the from the communication on. That was more about your family than a connection to.

00:41:04.110 - 00:41:22.340

This is more about the places. Yeah, but that but that would also trying toe draw people back there. They would get their education and say, Well, you know, my family is still down there. I've got to go back there. And so a lot of people, that's how ah lot of people went back after college, and they stayed till they retired.

00:41:23.410 - 00:41:43.190

Um, their parents retired and moved while they were still there. And then they stayed till they retired on. Um and I probably would have We probably would have done that if our parents were still here. But no, I never back. Yeah. Why is that? I'm a chemical engineer.

00:41:43.190 - 00:42:11.010

Anything I could do that we're gonna waste treatment plant, we'll Plus, he didn't. He was. I didn't have that strong connections. That was my only home. I was born there. I had no e. I still feel that I e home. My kids are all grown up grandkids and stuff, but Panama still, you know, most of my relatives are buried there, and, um, I still think of it Is home to get to visit often?

00:42:11.900 - 00:42:36.810

Um, no. Yes. Well, she'd go back every e go back. I would go back more often. Yeah, there's so many changes. So it's not the same. It's not. I've heard a lot of the little townships air completely overgrown and about it. Zee way took our daughter.

00:42:36.970 - 00:42:54.370

This was seven years ago. Her and her husband and two little girls when we went back and Um I was so excited because I took her on tour and I talk about all the houses I lived in that I could find on, and it was described.

00:42:54.370 - 00:43:16.270

I said, Well, you know, didn't it looked It looked better than this, but you know, you still looked like the houses and and I was telling her all kinds of stories, and she's enjoying it and they're taking pictures and we're taking pictures. And so that night, way, way, too, or just the canals on that day pointing out everything that was where the commissary was.

00:43:16.270 - 00:43:41.110

I don't know that. And so we're having dinner that night and we're sitting there and we'd all had a glass of wine. And so I said, Toe, I said to Suzanne, I said Now Susie and I said, I said, You haven't said too much. I said What I said How did you feel about today seeing all these places where I lived and how old I waas and moved here and this and that?

00:43:41.110 - 00:44:13.680

Whatever. Tears started running down her face, E said. But first I thought, Oh, you know, tears, he said. What's the matter? She says. Mom, she said, I had no idea you were so poor growing up. Oh, she never experienced that way of life growing up. And, of course, seven years ago, a lot of the house is still I mean, you know, the Panama E They were miss.

00:44:13.690 - 00:45:00.710

Things, weren't looking, Things weren't looking. Things weren't looking to good, whatever it Yeah, E said. We weren't poor way didn't know it way had every need supplied for us. And so But it was just just the difference If you if you both went down there today after after these interviews and you hear about how wonderful and everything you go down, you would go e a lot of places in Latin America College and and it's what I've said is that the canals will become Latin over time, and that's what's happened.

00:45:01.390 - 00:45:19.600

That's just that's fine. I mean, it makes a lot of sense to me. It's their country, and that's the way they want it to be. So be it. Yeah, so when it is different, it's not the pristine American colony with palm trees painted white grass cut away all of our treat.

00:45:19.600 - 00:45:48.440

All the palm trees were from about here. Now we're always painted white, very military bases that way And in the canal zone. And and you never You never way had streets with just nothing but the real tall palms just lining just lining the streets. And if one of the palm fronds fill by the end of the day, somebody had picked it up, carted it away.

00:45:48.450 - 00:46:09.750

Now it's just stuff Just lays there until it is what it is, what it is. It was time for the Americans to move on. Where were you when that transfer occurred? You know, did you watch it on the news? And I didn't. Oh, way. Followed way.

00:46:09.760 - 00:46:35.890

Tended to follow it. Um, Now, our parent, my parents were still down there. My brother was down. I was going Argentina 79. That's out of Argentina. Your dad was gone. Was retired by then. Um, you get you? Yeah, way can't give you that information, but you'll get a lot of it because because a lot of Yeah, you'll get all that.

00:46:35.900 - 00:47:00.200

Um um because things really did change. I mean, it started really changing. My sister went down for the last high school graduating class of 1999. She said That was very, very interesting, but yeah, No way. We're both pretty much out of there by the early sixties.

00:47:00.580 - 00:47:26.440

Yeah, because I know a lot of people back strong, strong opinions about it and emotions about it. But for you and your family, it was more looks. Well, you're good. Just gone through Vietnam. Uh huh. Terrible times. But the rock was starting to become problems. And the riots of didn't want parts of the riots, the riots of the riots of 64.

00:47:28.280 - 00:47:56.000

I can totally understand Bond. I can understand both sides and the Americans living in the canal zone, including my family, everybody, they felt that this this was that was our territory. That was our Yeah, country. It was like, There's Panama, there's there's Panama. And then there's the canal zone, and I and I think that we all felt like canal zone with our country.

00:47:56.580 - 00:48:22.200

And, um so and it was and we were all very, very, very patriotic to the American flag. I mean, it was I mean, even though most of us never even lived in the United States, we still we really were. Yeah, that's true way. We're really Allegiant Thio.

00:48:22.210 - 00:48:45.960

Oh, gosh. Yes. And so I can understand where things got heated up when you know, they wanted their flag flying first. And this and that e, you know, But so that was the tension. That was That was the tension. And, you know, they It was, you know, the the young.

00:48:46.250 - 00:49:25.660

Yeah, they they saw they saw it as their country. It was their country. And they wanted, you know, they didn't like looking over the fence. And was there canal? Not really. But they're doing a very good job now. They're there. It's just hope it continues. But yeah, a lot of them are educated in this country, and we are going to school with you guys.

00:49:25.670 - 00:49:51.730

And we're, you know, we're We're a civilization that's changing. I mean, our group is going to get fewer and fewer as time goes on. Tees of some people. I see. This is a good model for this place is a Civil War society. It has an ending.

00:49:51.900 - 00:50:14.400

Yeah, well, that's why we're here doing this. Yeah. Keep this very nice alive. Yeah. There's just so much potential. Like I mentioned for research to come out of this. Well, I personally think that I had a wonderful education. I learned about different cultures and I lead a life that would have been a lot different if I hadn't spent those six years.

00:50:14.860 - 00:50:47.120

Mhm the e. I don't know if you've gotten in tow into the early on. When the first Americans, we're down there digging the canal. But if you have, you've probably found it very fascinating the way of life and how things just got better and better. And and then, um I mean, it's got you just start from the beginning, and then you go to the riots and then you go to when?

00:50:47.130 - 00:51:08.430

When everything was turned over. And it's just it's an interesting story. Very interesting story. Yeah, there's a good, um, PBS documentary on Just the Building of the canal. I don't know if you guys are familiar with it, but it's pretty good. The American area. Yeah, So I mean, from that point thio this later on.

00:51:08.430 - 00:51:36.270

It's a really interesting story. Definitely. I have one more question before you start wrapping things up. Did you both meet in high school or college? Okay. Alright for yeah, actually, before high school. No, I got proof wait way. Knew each other? Yeah, way took ball. A lot of the kids took ballroom dancing.

00:51:36.280 - 00:52:04.660

You have to learn how to dance that way. So, yeah, there was Yeah. Way. So, yeah, and then we were in Spanish class together. But way didn't start dating until high school, but, um yeah, about 48 years of 48 years. A couple of weeks. Congratulations. It's exciting.

00:52:04.670 - 00:52:30.980

Yeah, but you're gonna hear some are way left Before we left by E was down by 62. So, um, and I took my brother and his wife, and they were down there when it was difficult. We've kind of convinced them to come to the states way helped them when they got here.

00:52:32.150 - 00:52:54.000

Well, everybody has a different story in a different perspective. Yeah. Yeah. You got to share that article with before? Well, no, I just I just I just I just brought this because this is this is more of a personal thing, But this, um this is what drew my grandfather down.

00:52:54.000 - 00:53:22.980

And, um um, the fishing. And yes, and they they're very, very well known for their fishing in Panama history. They're all they're all gone now, but, yeah, it was clinic kind of. So I grew up on a fishing boat. Fishing was always, you know, part that part of my growing up.

00:53:23.750 - 00:53:48.300

Mhm. So what's the article? It's just It's just on Panama fishing and her father. And yeah, my grandfather, they built hey, went down with his with the boys, and then they built a boat and they fished and worked. That's a big fish. They worked there to fish.

00:53:48.300 - 00:54:10.920

They're actually one fish. There is over £1000. Her one uncle only had one arm and one leg. He had help breathing it in or what? Record? My goodness. Wow. Okay, that Yeah. Wow, that's Yeah, that's great. Well, and that's from a book. That's from a magazine guy.

00:54:10.920 - 00:54:29.360

Harvey. Yeah, I got a book that z the most current article, but with a lot of books, a lot of books that have the Panama fishing in there. And yeah, that was a big It was a big That's mostly about her family right there. Big to dio my one uncle.

00:54:29.840 - 00:54:52.560

The four boys were the oldest one. Really? He, um he worked, Okay. My my father's oldest brother. He was a mule operator for the canal with mule back then was attached to the ship with cables, and they pulled the ships through the canal. It's now all computerized.

00:54:53.140 - 00:55:08.160

And then his other brother was an ad measure. Ships had to be measured before they could enter the canal. Make sure that they were not too large. My dad was an electrician's, and then his other brother ran the gas station. The one who got the one arm and one leg.

00:55:08.170 - 00:55:35.680

He was Yeah, he way had one gas station. That was They repaired cards there and And he ran the gas station, so But they really fished. It was like, Okay, how was pretty serious? That was their life. I'll just say so anyway. Like was great down there.

00:55:36.040 - 00:55:56.890

It really waas It sounds idyllic. And you? Well, you haven't been involved with people that here it is just getting started. But if you're gonna be here through tomorrow. You were here last year, though. Yeah, I think we're gonna stay until about maybe two or three tomorrow afternoon and then head back up to Gainesville.

00:55:57.170 - 00:56:16.810

This group of people, this reunions been going on here for a long long time This group of people are the closest knit people. You'll you'll you'll you'll see someone after years and years and years. And it's like time stood still it z all the class reunions they have.

00:56:16.810 - 00:56:50.880

You are just incredible closeness. Mhm. Anyway, it's just a very, very, very close. Yeah, but that sounds great. Oh, sure. My Oh, okay. Action shots. Yeah, we're truly working today. Really working E pick up these papers like I'm, like, way have documentary Waiting for the website.

00:56:50.890 - 00:56:55.360

Thanks for listening to us. No problem. Thank you guys for Yeah, that was great.