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we're recording now. Okay? Just say my name is Matthew White. On behalf of Samuel Procter oral history. Uh, program it is. July 1st, approximately one o'clock. And I'm here with a Mr Jim. James O Donnell. James James James, Joe Donald talking about the Panama Canal Zone on the Union.

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Um, so that's my introduction. You're telling me You said you were. You were involved in the union. That's right. First off, I was gonna tell you that I was born in the canals on, Okay. And what year was that? I was born in 1928. Okay, April 27 now is your very good.

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I was went to the canal Zone school system until I reached the age of 16. I got a job with the National Maritime Union. The man in charge that got me the job was renamed Lawan. Gee, he was a director for the N M you in Panama.

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What they did was supply semen on ships When they need a new employee, Rene would get one. When I heard that they had hired young Phillips for shipping out on the ships that started 16 years of age online and got the job. That was my first contact with unions.

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Can I just back up a few? Andi, ask you you were born in the canal zone. Now, how long has your family been there? My father came there in 1927. Okay, I was born in 28 and I had two other brothers that were also born there.

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After that, I went to the Canal Zone school system all the way through the college that they have. Their junior college graduated in 1947 from the college No. 49 from the college. I applied for a job with the Army. And there was two men Phil Green, and couldn't be Smith who arranged a for a a apprentice program that would allow the Army, Navy and Air Force to hire individuals to do ah, British work.

00:02:18.590 - 00:02:46.330

And then they would have qualified people to fill in at a later date. Well, the army put out two positions. One was mechanical. One was electrical. I got the electrical job as a powerhouse electrician's work with them and going to school for four years. Four more years, graduated it, and Phil Green took me to the I B W International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers.

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And I became a member. That was 1949 I think, you know, let no. 19 54. I believe it was. I then just worked for the union as a secretary treasure for many years when you work for the Union. Were you full time for the Union? You still maintain Electrician's?

00:03:12.950 - 00:03:32.260

Yeah. And you worked for them work then, you know, in the evening, in the on my own time. And through that job was eventually when I retired was able to get Social Security because I paid into the paid into Social Security at the same time that I was working for the government.

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Uh huh. I e I VW was formed in 1905 A lot of workers came from the United States. They were members of the union, their various unions and they formed a coalition of all the metal trades and non metal trades. They call themselves Central Labor Union Metal Trades Council.

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They had in it organizations such as American Postal workers, a p w you International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers, Carpenters, Union, Communication Workers of America, National Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, like I said International Association of Firefighters International Association of Machinists, American Federation of Government Employees, the Federation of Teachers in the Fraternal Order of Police as an example, All of those small unions, they were very small, joined together in one union called the Central Labor Union.

00:04:43.940 - 00:05:07.950

And then they brought in all of the metal tradespeople, metal trades, Central labor union minute trade account from. So I was in the I B W. And then I became a delegate to the Central Labor Union, and after I was in the central Labor unit for some time, I became a.

00:05:08.340 - 00:05:38.160

They elected me to be a legislative representative, and they sent me to Washington. I was in Washington for, uh, three months during legislative work at the union would have done. I came back and got into, Ah, a disagreement with the I B W, which they were the ones that delegated me to the Central Labor Union, and I was removed as a delegate.

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And at that time, the A F G American Federation of Government Employees was also a member of the centrally reunion and the president, the president of the organization, asked me to join up with his union in addition to the I b W. And he would make me a delegate back to the Central Labor Union, which he did at the time they were working, ready to work on the working for protections in the treaty.

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Treaty was coming down the road and my way through my wife and I and John Holster grew up a labor protections to be included in the treaty and these labor protections was what I would classified as an high school work. There was not really professional, and the administration under Phil Steers, the controller wanted to make sure that they got good protection and, through his work with me, were able to get Kay Richie to be the speechwriter who put the paper into professional presentation.

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We divided it up into three categories of workers who will be relieved of their job workers who don't want to leave right away. Don't say see what conditions of work would be when the treaty came and workers who didn't want to leave it all, and one of the benefits some of the benefits that we had in that labor paper was that person normally would could retire with adverse action at the 25 years of service at age 50.

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What we did was just attracted two years from everything that there is in the personnel manual. Eso a person would be able to retire at two years less than fifties of 48 2 years less than 25 23 48 23 which was unheard of in the federal system.

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But and many other things like 2.5% for each year of service after 1979 and that was only good to 90% was only good for hazardous duty people. But it was accepted for us. Way, Way worked with Congressman Murphy and Congressman Flood of Congress and Lenore Sullivan.

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That's Jared, person of the Panama Canal sub committee off the Merchant Marine and Fisheries Committee. They in turn, you were very helpful. Then we were told that if we get the Unionists F of L CEO in Washington to approve fish uddin them to the treaty, whether he Murphy, who was then became chairman of the Panama Canal subcommittee, would allow it to be included as an addendum in the treaty.

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The bank and the government introduced a proposed treaty themselves the first one time, and it failed. It wasn't accepted. It didn't get it voted on in the house at all. That's when Murphy produced his own suggestion of a treaty, and it includes would include the protections if we could pass it if we could get the A f of L c iota agree with it.

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So all of these unions that I mentioned all had representatives in the United States, all of them back in the people down here down in the Canal zone. They contacted their organization, and they, in turn contacted people in Washington. And we traveled back and forth among the various members of the house trying to push the the agreement.

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And Murphy did get it included into the treaty, which was terribly beneficial for us. Then I returned to the Canal zone and worked for the part time for the A F G, which I became president of, And what year was that on? That I can't remember.

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It was after the treaty was within making. It was in the making. So mid seventies, early eighties, early eighties, okay, a za, president of a F G American Federation of government employees. The people who worked for the army, civilians that lived in a town called Karan do we're being We're told that they have to get out of their quarters because the army was having trouble with the riots in Panama and they wanted their people housed in the canal zone on DSO.

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He told all of the people in the A Crandall area that they had to vacate terribly sad came to the A F T. And we decided to fight Thea Army on it because we believe that money was used from a certain section of the government to build those houses on.

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They weren't out intended for military use. That was what we believed. So we hired to lawyers and picked up $30,000 from the members of the people who are being vacated. And we went to to the court in Balboa and presented our case very often was the woman and Albert Joyce was the man to do lawyers, and the end result was we lost the case completely.

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We took it to another court and in Crystal Ball because we had people on both sides of the instance who joined and we lost there also. So we took it to the District court of in Paris and the calzone judge crown and the thing that's noteworthy of that case, he said from the bench, If you could get one thing in our favor, he would rule in our favor.

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Just give him one thing and we couldn't supply a positive thing that said that the housing was for the civilians. So we lost the case. So then, through the newspaper, we said we were gonna go Thio New Orleans to the Fifth Circuit Court of New Orleans and the before we got to the court, General Mayberry, the man that was in charge of all of the housing, called Joyce and I enter a meeting and said that if we did not fight this case any further, he would concede and not evicted people.

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There were six people that was going to evict, agree. We agreed to it. There were six people who were below great six on. They felt that they shouldn't be authorized housing. So we were very pleased to be able to win that case, and we then, because of all of that, the pilots union made me an honorary pilot.

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It was, you know, nothing big. But it was something I told you about Congressman Murphy and Sullivan. And they were very good people. The man who really helped out considerably was still steers, who helped put the paper together and that he got the protection for the employees in the Canal Zone.

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And while in Washington, John McCartan, he was the head of the Merchant Marine, the maritime unions, he Alfred space in his office and his clerical help for us that we're trying to get this paper passed in Congress. And then when I was made president, murders of local 14.

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And that brings us up to the present date I had finished. E finished to work my work with the union in 1991 and when I retired, came to the States and then here in Florida and just doing nothing for their lives. E find hard to leave.

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You've been doing nothing. Yeah, but it was a lot of the things that we did, and it's more elaborate than I said, but there was a collective bargaining agreement that was that passed with that treaty means they would have collective bargaining in the minimal Canal Company.

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And to get the collective bargaining, the A F C M e the American Federation of State and County Municipal Employees was one of the largest unions. There had Panamanians in their union, very few Americans where the other unions that I was talking about, they had Americans and not Panamanian and which one had both.

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The Brotherhood of, uh Postal Workers. The I. Bebe, the International Brotherhood of Boilermakers, Locomotive Engineers, Carpenters Union, Communication Workers of America, International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, International Association of Firefighters, International Association of Machinists International, No American Federation of Government Employees, American Federation of Teachers and Federation Note.

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Fraternal Order of Police the N M. You had just Panamanians and the F semi had just Panamanians. But when the collective bargaining came, F semi was with the Central Labor Union. So the Central Labor Union at all of these unions to try to be spokesman, they tried to be.

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They had more people. They won, So they became spokesman. So we no longer had a voice talking to the governor. We have monthly meetings with the governor and the unions would be represented there. And n m you got all Panamanians. Also they wanted by themselves and the pilots had represented themselves.

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And they want. So now, today, not today. But until the treaty passed, they had a spokesman for N. M. U spokesman for A F. C M E and put the spokesman for pilots. And if all the Central Labor Union had to go under one of those, if they wanted to get anything done, which the FC me basically represented Panamanians on EMU, basically Panamanian and pilots just representing themselves.

00:16:54.940 - 00:17:12.590

So that's about the story of the Canal Zone and the unions. Okay, well, can I back up a little bit more questions? Well, first off, even before we get to the union part, you were born in the canal zone, right? Right. And so I'd like to hear a little bit more about growing up in the canal zone.

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That's not a typical American, you know, childhood story. So I'd like to hear a little bit about what it was like to grow up in the canal zone. What your memories are, what your schooling was like. Well, the school the ball ball elementary school that I attended was a good brand new, not brand new, but a new building along new equipment.

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As I recall, I had a good good time. Good reasoning. And it was less than a block, maybe a block away from my house. So it was easy walking. It was located at the head of Barnaby Street, and it had three floors and a big patio in the center.

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My apologies, sir. Yeah, My apologies for that, sir. Um, so you would Balboa Elementary School now? Did you have understand sports were very big in the canal zone? High play football, baseball, softball, basketball, and might be noteworthy. Didn't mention that in the basketball team I was in high school, was fast and furious and very complicated.

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I threw the ball in the wrong basket. A self came very famous, so good threw the ball in the wrong basket. Well, I still hear about it today. You have in the reunion to people remind you of it. Yeah. Oh, excellent. Now who did you play, though?

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I mean, what other high schools were there? Did you play just intramurals, or did you play archery? Uh, paid football, baseball, basketball, and right off. And I can't think of anything else that sounds like enough. Now again, with these interscholastic Did you play other high schools?

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Crystal Crystal High School? That was And and the junior college? They when I was in the senior years College would have a team and and the high school have a team. And Crystal High School would have a team. We go back and forth and play each other.

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Wade all either ride the bus together over or ride the train. The train ran in when it was on the schedule of the football team where we could use the train. And if it's not, we use the bus. And what position did you play on the football team?

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A guard guard get beat up as we say that Z the grunts, if you will. Yeah, they're a star. It's just a regular player. Uh, which they needed. Well, how big was your graduating class in, um, in the junior college? It was about 125. I believe the fear was graduated in the high school, and I think that it was 402.

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0, that's pretty good size, then. Yeah, I believe. Was 400. Yeah. Later on, I think it grew to 700. That's that's a pretty good size high school. Then it sounds like and, uh, this way moved into the new high school. I was just after it was built.

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We had elementary school and we had We went after the sixth grade. He went to the 7th and 8th Junior High. There were ninth, 10th, 11th and 12th in high school. All the teachers is, I recall, had to have a master's degree to teach, which was, ah, higher standard in most places.

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A zai recall the statistics 85% of those who graduated went to college, which was very, I think, excellent record for the school. Yeah. Um, now where the teachers come from So they recruited from within the canal zone. No North Americans. Uh, at that time, this system was split between white and black.

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They call them silver and gold. The seller people were the non American people. You're on the silver rules, bathrooms for the silver people. That was They did sign, say that Silver it. Yes, it's a silver and gold has never said black. To my knowledge, I never said black and white, silver and gold.

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And that refers to it started when they paid the people they paid the locals in silver. They paid the U. S. Citizen in gold. That was for quite some time, many years. And then they, of course, that all went out the window. No longer silver and gold.

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But unions took in. Just you might say gold people. Three FC me took into silver people. Mm hmm. Different rules. And then the bathrooms were the same way drinking fountains in the same way that was in the younger years. E I don't recall the year that it went out the window, but you remember, was during your stay yes, that it started phase out.

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And another thing was might be interesting. When I became a Prentice, a powerhouse electrician's in I was the first job I got showed up Thio the boss Earl best. He's going to sign me to a man to work with. And he assigned me to the janitor and he said you worked with the janitor.

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He'll show you what to do. I thought at the time he was joking that he was gonna play along with him, but he wasn't joking. He was serious, so I became very seriously learning. What was janitor does. I was his helper. And how old were you then?

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Yeah, C 21 years old, 21 years of age. And the janitor and I became good friends. And when he would go into the silver bathroom, I would go in with him because I sticked with them like that's which Boss said. And the fellows who were in the bathroom to We're on a bench and one on the hopper.

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And when I showed up, they didn't want me in there. They were terribly upset that I was using their bathroom and that you think that's strange that they thought the same way about the gold people as the gold people thought about the Silver people. So anyhow, after two weeks of working with the janitor, Earl Best said, Now it's time to learn how to do the electrical field.

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It was something different at that time, okay? And what year did you graduate from? High school? In 1947 1947. Now that means because I'm a smart historian. You were there for Pearl Harbor in World War Two. I went to see in 1944 like I told you, a border ship went up and down the coast of Central America.

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Mm. Because of that, by an act of Congress later on, I became a veteran that gave me veterans service. Were you know, you were on the ship? What? We were actually in the Navy? No. Okay. What did you do on this ship? First I was ordinary Seaman.

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Second, I was a mess. Mint? Uh huh. It was because I got so burnt on the sun that they felt that they were really compassionate. They just haven't put in the mess room delivering the food and stuff like that and cleaning up the kitchen, which was very good for a 16 year old boy.

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Sure, absolutely. So when you were there, a couple of people I've talked to have said that, you know, Pearl Harbor on December 7th 1941 was a significant day that there's that Martin a mark for the camp Panama Canal Zone. Um, I was wearing if you noticed the same thing or what?

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Your memories over that time period, I can remember going coming home, and my mother was in a rocking chair and I told her that that the Japanese has attacked Pearl Harbor and, you know, it's all excited and she knew all about it already. So I remember telling her about it.

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But that's the only really remember I have that incident e remember going to the dry docks later and seeing ships that had been torpedoed and having holes in the side and then in the Drydocks. They were repairing them for temporary repairs so that they can go back to the States and be repaired better.

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But as to seeing things of that other nature, I didn't see anything. Of course, on the ship that I was on way used Thio harass the Navy crew. They had a crew of about eight Navy fellas who commanded the one gun we had on the ship.

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And every almost every day, they would run out, get the gun ready, bring the shells out, loaded up, spin the gun around and then called quits. Put the shells away, close up the gun, and they practice that almost every day. And, of course, the crew that was on the ship would harass him.

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Uh huh. Go on. If you gotta go faster, you're not doing it. right, You know, and all this kind of stuff. Until one day we saw the submarine. We didn't know who submarine it waas on. We never harassed those guys. After that, they respected him. Did you ever find out who sub it was?

00:27:26.680 - 00:27:52.450

You know, I still don't know. But the whole ship was on a big alert. Yeah, but it could have been an American ship. It could have been somebody else sore, but they were sinking ships in that ocean on the Caribbean as well. You may be all, and one of the things I remember else about that ship is I did not drink coffee.

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Never drink coffee in my house. It was always T When I got on the ship, it was only coffee. And so they get a break every every so often, and everybody would go up to where the coffee pot is, and they get a drink of coffee and then they stay there 15, 20 minutes, and then you go back to work.

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Well, I would go with him. And where I was standing was below the bridge when the captain on the bridge leaned over and he saw me. I never really met the captain and he says, Oh, Donald, are you drinking coffee? And of course I was shocked when the headman talked to me and do your name and knew my name.

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And I said, No, sir. And he said, Well, this coffee break is for those that drink coffee. If you don't drink coffee, get back to work. He was joking, you know? And of course, everybody went along with that. We'll get that son of a bitch later.

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We'll we'll fix them. We get a cup of coffee in your hand. If he leans over, we'll tell him Get screwed, you know. Three Captain. Yeah, way went back the next time for coffee and, of course, I had a cup of coffee standing by, captain again.

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It came on the bridge and said, O Donnell, are you drinking coffee? I said, Yes, sir, He said, All right, Don't spend more than 15 minutes there. And of course, I was the smallest guy on the ship. The least of importance on was getting all that attention.

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It's comical, but I think back. But he helped. That was things that I remember about the ship now in your earlier years. You know, high school, earlier, maybe. Or maybe after While you're You said you went to junior college before you went to see her. After you came back, I went to see it.

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16 graduate from college in 1949. Okay, during that time, did you have hobbies? Did you? What did you do with your leisure activities? I don't remember that having leisure octane. My mother had seven Children on, and she made sure six of them boys on all six boys had worked at the house.

00:30:11.060 - 00:30:33.430

They had to sew iron, clean, wash and do anything else that had to be done in the house. And so we were always occupied doing something, But I I can't recall doing anything special. Now, that's a big family. Where did you live? Live in Bel Bo.

00:30:33.440 - 00:31:00.780

Okay. I mean, what type of housing did you have? Way had a two bedroom house, but my father made a third bedroom on the porch of the house. And at one time, my brother Tom, Paul and I slept in two beds to put together. The three of us slept in two beds and my brother Bob had his own bed my brother Jack and Dan had their own bed and my mother and father had their bed.

00:31:02.840 - 00:31:21.270

So we're kind of crowded. Yeah. And my mother used to say, We want you to get a good education, take care of your teeth and get out of the house. Um, oops. I had a question that just slipped through my mind. That happens when you get to be 50.

00:31:21.280 - 00:31:40.160

Yeah, well, not Yeah s. Oh, that's a big family. What did your parents do in the My father. It came to the canal zone as a bullet maker. That's right. And then he became a planner and estimator. Uh, it was retired as a planner and estimator, but his original job out of Philadelphia was a planner.

00:31:40.170 - 00:32:06.660

It was a bullet maker. And at that time, they were doing a lot of automaker work. Sure. And the area needed been like that. They hired from the United States. Basically all North Americans, uh, Nani all white soon. Yeah. Just as an aside, if you ever want to take a break, you know, get a piece of candy or something.

00:32:07.040 - 00:32:22.960

I think I know it could be hard talking silly. So just let me know I could stop the town. Fine. I'm got plenty of time. Okay? Just let you know. Thes interviews do take anywhere from an hour to an hour and a half. Try. Remember, if there's anyone coming in here after us, I'm gonna stop.

00:32:23.340 - 00:32:40.840

All right? We're back with Jim O Donald's need to turn it off real quick. Um, so in the night. So you pretty much stayed in the canal zone. Except for when you're in Washington your whole life. Until you moved out in 91. Correct? That's right. Live right.

00:32:40.840 - 00:32:59.980

That's where you lived. So I understand that the fifties were actually a time of importance for the canal zone. The sense that that's when they start to see a lot of protests from the Panamanians. Well, as I recall, there was a Well, I can recall one particular incident.

00:32:59.980 - 00:33:17.930

When my sister came for a visit, she had moved out, I guess. Yeah, she was in Philadelphia. She had left long time ago where they were having a like a not exactly a riot. But it was close to a riot where they headed maybe four or five or 6000 Panamanians together.

00:33:17.930 - 00:33:58.190

chanting in the military was, Do you remember when this Waas chiller park? I mean, when it waas e can't recall the year fifties sixties, and that probably was maybe late fifties. Okay? And I drove my sister upto Ang Khang Thio show her the mass of people that were getting round up on the military was called out to guard the canal zone, and I showed her I said, Look at that, Marie, that's what's gonna come into The calzone shortly is going to cause a lot of problems, she says.

00:33:58.200 - 00:34:12.550

We've had that in Philadelphia on a regular basis. Took the wind out of my sale because I thought we were having something big, she says. Here in the United States, we have that often in the late fifties. I guess they had a lot of trouble up there.

00:34:14.140 - 00:34:30.750

Yeah, well, did you not sure about Philadelphia? But I know that starts to start of the sort of civil rights movement. Another thing in America. Did you keep abreast of things going on the United States? Did you keep informed about the United States? How connected did you feel?

00:34:31.840 - 00:34:55.200

Well, every two years, we had to go back to the United States for vacation. My father had a home in Philadelphia on. We go back there every two years but stand informed as a youngster? No, as, ah, there's a married man of 23 25 years ays a little bit.

00:34:55.200 - 00:35:12.680

You know, You read the news in the here. What's going on? Trouble that's being involved and how civil rights has been changed. But we were never really affected by the civil rights in the canals. Um, you said you read the paper. What newspapers? History. The Pan American and the Star Herald.

00:35:12.740 - 00:35:35.250

Were they produced in the canal or in Panama? You animal their English, Spanish in the wood language everywhere they in both in English. Oh, both in English. Yeah, The papers were printed in Panama, but they were basically for the Americans in the canals are and the unions used the papers to their advantage when they wanted Thio say something.

00:35:35.250 - 00:35:52.970

They talk to the reporters who were glad to get the news. And we're very, very helpful. Like well, like you say, use the advantage. Like what? Would they just spread the word? Or were they for example, one time we wanted Thio get a point across about.

00:35:53.640 - 00:36:17.780

That's what we thought was bad conditions. And so I took an article that we produced in the news in the newspaper, printed in English, and I took it to a fellow toe, have it translated in Spanish and very good Spanish. I took that back to Louis Nolan.

00:36:17.790 - 00:36:46.370

The reporter that did a lot of the stuff for the Canal Zone and gave him the article in Spanish, asked him if he could get it printed in Panama in Spanish, which they did. Now there's a lady who worked for the CIA, and she told me that when the article came out in Spanish, they picked it up and wanted to have it translated into English, and they reported it.

00:36:46.380 - 00:37:05.550

They would report on anything that was said that it concerned the canal zone if it was in Spanish and not English. So well, that brings up a whole lot of questions. Let me just start with the basic ones. I mean the your employer, everyone's employer. That was in the union was the United States government.

00:37:06.330 - 00:37:25.360

Everyone who was in the union was United States. Everybody worked for the United States government um how How was that? Such? I mean, normally, one doesn't think of unionized workers they think of, you know, You know, the railroad brotherhoods worked for the railroad, the canal zone, head of railroad.

00:37:25.370 - 00:37:39.540

Right. But, you know, everybody works The United States government, The United States government typically doesn't take well to unions. I was wondering what your how how your union is exist as an existence went over and what your relations were with the employers. And who did you negotiate with?

00:37:40.130 - 00:37:57.970

Well, for example, of the i v w international Brotherhood of Workers would talk to the once a month about once a month, they would meet with the governor and they would talk about the fact that health problems were not good or safety problems were not good.

00:37:58.430 - 00:38:23.790

You know, I should be improved in. They wanted thio change various regulations about home leave and stuff like that. But as Thio, actual union problems, they never really discussed those. But they didn't have. They talked about anything, anything and everything. But with the governor with the governor directly with the penny was very good.

00:38:23.810 - 00:38:51.980

I mean, they were very accommodating. The A, uh, treated us and, like we were partners, Bond. We really had no problems in about the Yeah, we were trying to get collective bargaining. We didn't get that until until the treaty came around. But up to then, we would, um, we would pay our dues to the union.

00:38:51.990 - 00:39:16.510

They, in turn, would pay to the national. And we like When I joined, I became what they call it a member and being in a member, I paid extra money. And when I retired, I got a pension from the union. And in fact, I just got a certificate from the main office head office in Washington, D.

00:39:16.510 - 00:39:39.130

C. That said I had 60 years is in the union, and I've been getting a pension for 20 years, which is very good. Yeah, excellent. Um, in addition to safety concerns, what other concerns bring health? Okay, let's see working conditions. That's about the major things that we talked about.

00:39:39.140 - 00:40:04.620

We really, really were, uh, just a very classifications of unions were able to keep the I V W. Would be able to keep up the membership. For example, I maintain the fact that I was a powerhouse electrician's in, and I you got a card that certified that I could use that same card in the States when I went back.

00:40:04.620 - 00:40:17.590

If I if I didn't want to stay in the Pan Canal, I wanna leave, go back to States. If I didn't do that, I would drop out of the union, had to rejoin again. And sometimes they don't want you to join their union. A za case in point.

00:40:17.590 - 00:40:46.550

My father, when he retired, he went to work. Who he wanted to goto work. And his brother in law was the agent for Black Diamond Shipping Company, which had appear and dark in Philadelphia when he went to work for the Black Diamond Company. You had to be a union member, and the union asked my father not to join the Union.

00:40:46.560 - 00:41:06.950

They would give him all the benefits because the brother in law was the agent for the company on. He did that because if he joined the union, all his Children six of us with the eligible to join that union. If you didn't have a relative in there, you couldn't get into that particular union.

00:41:07.510 - 00:41:25.250

So he got a lot of work and never joined the Union But if you lost your your union status and to go back to ST, you might not be able to get back into the union to a lot of these people kept the union membership now did.

00:41:25.250 - 00:41:42.770

When you were when you were bringing those, the health and safety grievances to the governor did ever reach a point. I mean that you are threatening strikes or any of the other actions that that unions could sometimes take. To my knowledge, no one ever said that.

00:41:42.780 - 00:41:59.250

It was just a matter of conversation. Uh, you know, I would tell you something. You thought it was good we did it. If you didn't think it was good, we didn't do it or I asked you to look into it. You look into it. You thought that should be changed.

00:41:59.810 - 00:42:27.250

It was more or less a partnership. The best governor that I recall was perfect. It was a two star general, but it is delegated as a civilian. During the time it was governor very friendly to the unions, Very cooperative, and very, for example. Uh, my wife got sick at a little cancer on operation.

00:42:27.260 - 00:42:54.310

He was there, Tito, with cards and flowers and, you know, state homes. Sorry. Was hope you get well, a man like that you can't hate. You know it's time. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And that was perfect. There's several good governors. They had several. Very good. So we're very lucky that we had those type of people running the canal.

00:42:54.900 - 00:43:12.530

Okay, Now you're going back to something you said about the woman from the CIA. Does this someone? Does the CIA have a presence in the canal? And were you present? And they found the embassy through the embassy Where you were you aware of them? Or they have a sort of a presence in your life.

00:43:13.600 - 00:43:39.700

Yes, I was aware of them. Everybody was aware of. It was it wasn't something that was special that I knew. Everybody knew the same thing I can recall. Uh, particular case was something similar. I was printing articles in the newspaper I was having printed in newspaper articles about housing.

00:43:39.700 - 00:44:11.870

The people were being kicked out of the house and okay. And I would take photographs or half the photographs taken off some fellas who are being vacated. Different quarters who were in this army in World War two the same time that General Mayberry was in the army and I would print these articles up and say, This is what General Mayberry is doing to the fellow people who fought in in Germany.

00:44:11.880 - 00:44:37.910

It was a real blast. You know, a man sitting in the chair with his wife hand on. You sound like something of a rebel rouser. A And what happens was young lady. That was my son's age. Told me, Mr. O Donnell, every time you have something like that printed in the newspaper, my job is to cut it out and put it in the file.

00:44:38.390 - 00:44:58.000

She worked for G two, and so she actually told me that. So I thought that was show you that they were interested with people were saying it, especially if it was derogatory. Sure. Did you ever see any negative action against you for doing stuff like that?

00:44:58.010 - 00:45:29.660

One time a lieutenant colonel in his office. You see, I had the A. I was president of the F E and I had the Army people in the Union clerical. And one time it was reported that a lieutenant colonel said, Isn't there some way that we can get rid of that O'Donnell fella, And she quickly told me, and I thought, Well, they are C.

00:45:29.660 - 00:45:52.230

I worked with Pain Canal, which is not army. And so I was doing things for the civilians in the army, so they couldn't very well do anything to me. Mhm steps. But they try it all. Do you know? I mean, certainly pressures that could be bought, especially if you're living in government houses Are Yeah.

00:45:52.790 - 00:46:16.220

People that I knew of in the bank Canal often was saying, How is it going with that housing fight? You know, you gotta go through the courts, you know, how you gonna explain that? How you gonna pay for it? You know, way did. And through default, we won not because we were right, which was a strange way to win.

00:46:17.580 - 00:46:35.800

Mhm. So there's many Pan can help people like me doing the same thing in the different unions. I was at the list that I read off to you. Each one of them had a leader that did something along that line. Uh, now moving ahead just a little bit.

00:46:35.810 - 00:46:59.320

You talked about being in Washington. How long were you in Washington? Three months for three months. Uh, talk to me a little bit about because you there. I think I wrote it down. You did legislative work, right? Or I was a legislative represent, represented for the Central Labor Union Medal Trades Council, representing these unions and talk between a little bit more detail about what it is that you did there.

00:46:59.330 - 00:47:13.490

I know that you said that you were You were, uh you didn't use the word lobbyist, but it sounds like that's what you were doing. Talking to Congressman about actually filled out of farmers to be a registered love. You were registered, lobbyist. Okay, so tell me what?

00:47:13.500 - 00:47:36.720

You gave me a large picture. Talk to you a little About the smaller picture about what you did sort of a day to day or some of the steps you took. Well, for example, E met with Strom Thurman. Uh, before I met with him The f f L CEO, baby union in Marsh or yeah.

00:47:37.180 - 00:48:07.750

Told me that Mr Thurman. Senator Thurman. It was very much against Catholics, very much against unionist. And he didn't like Catholics and union people he did not like. And you're gonna have a hard time way made the appointment. I ask, Are you Catholic? Yeah. Okay. E figured out a way, made an appointment, and I arrived and he was very gracious, very nice.

00:48:07.750 - 00:48:31.650

He got up from this desk, came out, shake my hand. Of course, I was scared to death. And I said out loud, You have right at the start that I am a union member and I am a Catholic. But I am here for this purpose. And he said, I don't know why they told you such a thing, that I'm against Catholics and it is a big lie.

00:48:32.470 - 00:48:52.880

I have had many friends who are Catholics and so forth. He says. My trouble is those Panamanians, You're not representing them, are you? I said no. I'm representing the employees in the council. Whoever they are, he says, Well, he says those Panamanians should get back into the trees where they go on.

00:48:53.870 - 00:49:26.610

I thought I was earthshaking statement for him to say, but he did. Anyhow, he said he was in favor off the protection of employees, that what we were there for. And I met with, uh, several congressmen Flug, Murphy, Sullivan and they were all they were all supporters and they would give me, uh, tips of what to do, where to go.

00:49:26.610 - 00:49:48.590

And very helpful, but to be a what you call a real lobbyist. E was way down in the pool. Not a very good one. Well, you only did for three months. Yeah. Do you feel that your going there was a success that you got what you wanted?

00:49:49.570 - 00:50:12.010

Yes. The end result was the end result. Was that paper that we produce? Sure. Which is, um, the rial credit goes Thio. Sears still steers and K Richie and John Holster my wife. They were the ones that the only ones out of the union that really But one say that was presented.

00:50:12.020 - 00:50:31.880

All these unions jumped on the bandwagon and got their national offices in bone. And they got a lot of calls going in and consequent in the Eifel CEO supported it paper, which is these people did that and they did it well and we received the benefits of it.

00:50:32.360 - 00:50:48.740

And now that would do it. The benefit of what I guess treaty was signed in 79. Yes. So that's what 30 years do you feel? It was all a success and worthwhile. That went well. Well, we had nothing to do with anything other than labor protection.

00:50:48.750 - 00:51:10.770

Sure. Well, it's just that the party that that part worked out extremely well. The employees at Faras I know we're all tickled pink were example. They got 2.5% for every year beyond 79. To get that, you had to have a policeman or hazardous duty of some kind.

00:51:11.860 - 00:51:36.570

And they give it to people like me that it just worked as a regular job or a clerk or anything else. So they made extra money on their retirement, which made them very happy. Oh, good. And, uh, you talked about how you got along with the people above you.

00:51:36.960 - 00:51:53.950

Um, were the people who representative do you represented? How did you get along with them? Did were there people that worked in the canal zone that were members of the union and we'll get many, Many did not belong to the union, was looked upon as a bad thing.

00:51:54.090 - 00:52:22.970

Troublemakers. OK, you know, But, um, when one of the directors of the company would stop a meeting, for example, I went to the office of Phil Steers. When I was having a board meeting with various under links, the door was open and I walked to the secretary that I had to pass by where I contact was made.

00:52:22.980 - 00:52:43.280

He stopped the board meeting, told him to take a break. Well, he, uh well, he could talk to me, and I was flattered that he did such a thing, you know? And he would go over how far we got along on the paper and what is going on in his care Richie had done with his paper and stuff like that.

00:52:44.050 - 00:53:04.290

So I say I got along really well with them. They were just really, really classy. Gentlemen, you know, you're going across some that were stuck up? Sure, you know, But once that I met were very good. So the people who thought you were a bad thing?

00:53:05.350 - 00:53:30.210

Well, none that you said it out loud to me. Okay. I knew of a case. I took a course in college when I got my bachelor's degree. It was a case in labor law, and, uh, the teacher name was Angel. Last name on. I told him when he met me, he got a job with the pain canal.

00:53:30.210 - 00:53:47.030

And he was really happy in the in the section of lawyers. And I saw him in the cafeteria and I was real happy and told him, Hey, you know, he said, I told him that eventually told him Heaven, being seen with me might be a bad for him.

00:53:47.040 - 00:54:08.800

And he said, You must be paranoid And I said, Yeah, I said, I'm telling you, you won't do to Well, when you are seen with me on duh. About a week later he said, You know, you're right. They called me into the office. Asked me, asked me what I was talking about with U S O They.

00:54:08.810 - 00:54:29.860

When you hear things like that, you do believe that they have a little You could be a little paranoid. Uh, well, what made you paranoid to begin with? Well, I really don't know. Except that management people were not really in favor of the unions and the publicity in the newspaper, I guess.

00:54:29.860 - 00:54:47.360

Sure. You love to get your name printed? Yeah. How about your your neighbors and friends with co workers? Coworkers? And were they also in the union? Or do they some of them are half of them, I guess would say that not all the Americans joined the union.

00:54:47.840 - 00:55:08.750

You know, they had a union for clerical workers on board. They could join easily if they wanted to, but many did not. They thought that management was supposed to be one thing and workers were supposed to be another. And then Twain shall not meet or Oh, it all sounds very interesting.

00:55:09.240 - 00:55:34.950

Different? Yeah. Different. What was your relationship with in terms off the Panamanians? Like, Did you go out into the Panama into Panama area for fun and recreation or work? And my wife was from Panama. Her father was a businessman. American businessman. It came down from the States, opened a business in Animal on, and she never was associated with the canal zone.

00:55:35.690 - 00:55:56.350

But I met her and coming out of church one day and felt that might be a good gal to meet ended up Mariner. And this December will be 60 years. Congratulations. Yes, well, that actually want to go back to that. I've heard almost nobody else mentioned religious life in the canal were their churches.

00:55:56.360 - 00:56:28.070

Were there loads of churches? Uh, I think there was almost a many churches as it was. Places you could buy beer and wine. They have all denominations. And they had one church called the Union Church was all those that didn't fit into some other church and then at the Baptist to make a practiced the Mormons, the friends, Catholics, Protestants, I think they had everything.

00:56:28.080 - 00:56:46.260

Sounds like seven data finish. Uh, so who went to the union? One who went to the It sounds like they're all covered. Didn't they're Muslims? Was there Buddhist? No, I don't believe there was any Buddhist. If there was. I don't know of Okay. Or Muslims. I don't know of them.

00:56:46.270 - 00:57:02.160

Uh, but then there's a lot of church going a lot of real churchgoing people there. And it was wrong. The canal zone property? Yes. And so your wife who was coming to church, she would come onto the canal zone? Yeah, for church. There was no border, no fence.

00:57:02.170 - 00:57:21.160

No. You just go back and forth without any problem with Andi. She would. She was in senior in high school, and they allowed you to go to your church on the Holy Days. And so she went to church on a particular holiday When I saw her picked her up.

00:57:21.630 - 00:57:35.060

Next thing I knew, we were married. Now, where did she go to high school? Same high school. Balboa High School. Same high school as you. Even though she wasn't on the canal zone. Yeah. See, their father had a pay. Okay to go. I went for free.

00:57:35.310 - 00:57:54.220

All my education, except for college, was free. I at the time. I think I paid $25 credit hour. I was in college. Wow. I think that's what it was. And you went You went to college right there in the U. S. Government college, which is strange.

00:57:54.230 - 00:58:16.510

You don't find many U. S government colleges. That's a good question. There's not very many on the Indian reservation. You'll find Indian reservation and, uh, what's the name escapes me. But the deaf one in D. C. I think is run by the federal government whose officially run by that, I think.

00:58:16.520 - 00:58:45.120

But it is an odd thing. Um, the college usually people don't understand you that you have Ah ah, Government college, uh, went there twice. I got two degrees out of a degree in the A s degree and Then I went on to get a bachelor of science degree in a magical march degree, and I still don't know how to spell degree.

00:58:45.130 - 00:59:18.550

That's a joke. Now, what was what were your degrees in industrial technology? Uh, so e really never. I became a chief powered, especially for the commission. Eventually worked my way up through the theological feel until I became the chief of the section on, And, uh, it was a good job generation and transmission and distribution.

00:59:18.920 - 00:59:42.760

Mhm. And let's see what else? Now, Balbo is on the Pacific side, right? Right. Okay, I'm getting good at this. Colon crystal ball was on the Atlantic side. The tide and Balbo could rise as much as 22 ft. You know, on the Atlantic side, at the same time, you could rise three and four inches.

00:59:45.520 - 01:00:07.690

That was one of the problems with the canal to build a sea level canal. The difference in the tide would cause the water to flow one direction. It would be too strong of a current. The only way they could build a can always do locks. So it was a marvelous feat that they did absolutely, absolutely.

01:00:07.690 - 01:00:34.530

Now, in your your specific job. What was what was your biggest challenge? See, the generation was being done properly economically because somebody was always checking you to make sure. Okay, so I'm getting where we're just about at the our point. That's about the time when people start getting tired.

01:00:34.530 - 01:00:52.780

Maybe. I thought I'd ask you not to bring this to an artificial end, but just ask you what? What story would you like to tell that you think the people should know about the canals? Oh, I think it was a paradise was excellent place to raise Children.

01:00:53.160 - 01:01:25.540

It was purely socialistic with a totalitarian governor. Uh, but a good one. The The system owned all the property. All the fire stations, all the hospitals, all the schools. Everything belonged to the government. Therefore, they had complete control of everything. And let's see what else? Now you say it was a great place to raise Children.

01:01:25.540 - 01:01:46.460

Why is that? Well, there was no if you didn't work. There are a dependent of a person who did work there. You couldn't stay there. Therefore you didn't have a lot of unemployed people. Didn't have poor people When they get to 62 they had to retire.

01:01:46.470 - 01:02:15.720

Mandatory retirement at 62. So you didn't have old and decrepit people Didn't have unemployment, people. So since the government ran everything, they made sure that you were healthy, wealthy and treated Well, you didn't have to do anything. They took care of you. Now, how many Children did you base there?

01:02:16.300 - 01:02:41.920

How many Children did you raise? I read three boys and one girl. Okay. And what do they What was their experiences like? They might have been different than yours. They two of the boys, three of the boys did a lot of fishing at a hunting. And, uh, basically, that was the main sport surfing.

01:02:42.700 - 01:03:04.050

I took two of my boys for a trip from Panama to San Francisco, then down to New Orleans and took 62 days to make the trip. And we visited all the countries in between in between, and them was noteworthy. I wrote a paper on it telling people how to do it.

01:03:04.050 - 01:03:18.360

Where to do it when you do it. How to get your car out of Panama. What does require all the stamping that you have to? Because you get one paper, have to take it to that section over there and buy a stamp. They put it Then they have Thio take that paper over to another section.

01:03:18.360 - 01:03:35.420

They decided it is in the canal zone. No, in Panama on. Okay. Oh, in Panama. Okay, So I wrote a paper about how to take your car out of Panama. Uh, and how to get out of Panama by yourself, you know, through the back and forth across the border.

01:03:38.300 - 01:03:56.950

And it was very helpful. I wrote a, uh, journal on how toe travel from Panama to San Francisco and then down to New Orleans and then put the car on a ship in New Orleans and ship the car back. Tonto is a lot of little tricks that you have todo I'll bet.

01:03:56.960 - 01:04:14.470

Where was it published? Never bust, but it was never published. Oh, sorry about that. The one that was on how to take a car out on how to get out yourself. I printed up several copies, gave them out as two different people. I had it on the front.

01:04:14.480 - 01:04:41.210

What it waas and my name and the date that it was done. And the man in charge of transportation. George pre it. Vietto. Hmm. Took the first page and ripped it off and put on in place of it. Paper from the transportation division. What facts you should know about taking your car out of Panama.

01:04:41.210 - 01:05:03.180

Oh, hey, let's give to people who were leaving their car front page listening, who did it and when was run away. Oh, yeah. So I went to see him. Uh, I confronted it with that. He said I thought you just did that for you. Give it out to people.

01:05:03.190 - 01:05:24.430

I said I did, George, but it was supposed to be with my name on, uh oh. I didn't realize that e thought he did. Uh, do you put your name back on it? You know, they stopped giving it out. Library had a copy. Okay, Did get some recognition.

01:05:24.690 - 01:05:46.530

Okay, good. So, e wanna go back to a question? I was wondering if if you saw, uh, when you're raising your you. You grew up in the Panama Canal Zone thing. Your kids grew up in the Panama E Wonder if there's any differences that you saw in their childhoods either Better for worse from your childhood.

01:05:46.530 - 01:06:16.710

Any changes in the Panama Canal zone that had an effect. I think that had really I don't think I see a change. They had the same opportunities I had and, uh, the fact that you utilize fishing more than I did. I concentrate a little bit more on hunting, but they were more outdoors thing than I waas.

01:06:18.380 - 01:06:37.810

But I don't think it was much different. They were not the best students in the world like I was on. Uh, I think they're about the same. I don't think they have the same opportunities. Diet. Interesting. Now what did they go into? How did how did their careers work out?

01:06:38.690 - 01:07:01.370

I said, Joe started out and they're going to junior college. And my my wife was a teacher there, and they notified my wife that you should take a withdrawal before they give him the Great because he's not doing too well. So Joe withdrew because he was too much wine.

01:07:01.380 - 01:07:28.740

Women and song went back next year, try it again. More wine, women and song took a withdrawal again, went off to Vietnam. Cambodia came back, wanted to go thio school again and stay home and go to school. And so my wife was saying, you know, he's not gonna do anything.

01:07:28.750 - 01:07:45.400

She was down on it. But we agreed that he should go back again if you want to go back. And he went from there. He went on to get his master's degree in teaching eso he did really well. But the beginning part was a lot of wine.

01:07:45.400 - 01:08:06.880

Women who saw the second son went often, took an apprenticeship. Air condition did well in the canals, and you could know them with the military. My other son went thio two years of college and then went to work with the blind. Helped them in the canal zone.

01:08:07.370 - 01:08:38.260

No, here in the States. Okay. In what is south of us here? Grady didn't. There's a dog school Eastern a lot. Each sounds right. Dog school. And my daughter Mary went off the Berkeley and got her master's degree in public health. Mhm. My wife got her master's degree in library science.

01:08:38.510 - 01:09:08.980

Okay. Excellent. And I could barely get through college four years. But you like four degrees e don't mean Italy E. And, uh, it was maximum for me. Uh, some people they could float right through nisi Yeah, But could they keep power flowing? The Panama Canal? Yeah, well, that worked out well, Sure.

01:09:08.990 - 01:09:33.790

Coordinated with Panamanian. Foresee loose to supply them power. Went to Costa Rica and look at the company in Costa Rica. See how they were? Seaman's at Costa Rica geared up, and they were coordinating with them. They did the work. I just got to hear it about selling power to Nicaragua.

01:09:33.800 - 01:09:52.850

Try to ship power back and forth in that the power systems were a little bit different. It made it very difficult. Hmm. But we was selling by power from each other and keep tabs Who owned what? How much? That was the responsibility of the government of Panama.

01:09:53.770 - 01:10:18.070

And just that we were a time the bigger company. Mhm. We just did. I think we did a good job. In fact, when the boss who I relieved, he felt that I was gonna have a hell of a time because e would not be able to fill his shoes.

01:10:18.080 - 01:10:35.300

I did. When I left, I felt the next I wasn't gonna be able to fill my shoes. And he did. E. What was that again? Remind me when was that? That he filled your shoes. I left. I've been gone since 1991 91. Okay, You felt my shoes in 91.

01:10:35.310 - 01:11:03.590

Okay. How do you feel? Things been going since then? Very well, Uh, they have reached. They reduce the amount of generation that the canal zone is doing. Mhm because they concentrate on keeping the units running. Basically for the locks. In case of power failure happens. They want to make sure that they have backup power to keep the locomotives running and the and the canal in operation.

01:11:03.600 - 01:11:26.520

So the Panamanian government reduce the amount of customers that we used to serve. We serve the whole canals on and supplied power to them. When they took over, they took over all the machinery and they decided to do it a little differently. Where all the north in the South District's.

01:11:26.530 - 01:11:47.080

We're all under one person. When they took over, they wanted to divide it into three person north, central and south, Which my opinion was wrong thing to do. You know, they don't have as much control. This man has all his control and he's control. You have to have somebody over him.

01:11:47.090 - 01:12:06.150

Uh, you know, that tells them they both were to do it. But that's what they did. And it worked in well, for, uh, they did a good job. Mhm. But they do it a different philosophy, which is probably very good. In case they have a power outage.

01:12:06.160 - 01:12:27.060

They still will be able to supply the looks. They do have a lot of power outage. You're still. Do you? Do you return to Panama at all? Well, we owned property in the hills, Hector Costa Rica. So we did return, and we eventually sold it on.

01:12:28.150 - 01:12:51.120

Then I had a son that stayed there. Air conditioned one Andi way went back there to visit with him. Then he died and we had to sell this property Were back then. But we haven't been back in the last five years. Any plans on returning toe sort of go home again?

01:12:51.130 - 01:13:15.670

I don't think so. I I really believe my culture belongs here in the United States. Even though I spent 64 years down there, I am. It was a wonderful time. It was a wonderful I was very lucky to be there at that time. But then e didn't lose anything there e don't have to go back to look for it.

01:13:16.060 - 01:13:41.660

That's very well put. Um, and you settled in Florida. I first went to San Francisco for a year's vacation. Uh, and it was very good. We had a good time and been all over visiting and enjoying ourselves. And we'd We rented a house in Alameda on the small island, which was very good.

01:13:42.350 - 01:14:05.180

We had way, liked it very much, but we started to look for a house to buy. Prices were terrible. I've heard that in 91 when they were very bad. Some people, they say some people were paying as high as 15% interest on the money they borrow.

01:14:05.540 - 01:14:33.770

Mhm, hard to believe. And then for a one room apartment, they wanted your eye on your teeth. Yeah, I heard that. So we said that we couldn't meet that we came Thio ST Petersburg. They have a very nice three bedroom, three bath house, and we've been there for, uh, 18 years.

01:14:33.770 - 01:14:52.560

I guess this. So life has been good to me, and I'm glad I was raised in the canals on It was a wonderful life. Well, and I'm pretty much out of you just go back to my little question. She e kind of got away from it because you're getting to all them.

01:14:52.560 - 01:15:13.020

Anyway, I'm out of questions or things to talk about. Um, I usually like to save a little bit of time at the end again for you, toe. If there's anything that you think we haven't gotten to, that you'd like to share. Well, that's home. Okay. I wanted to tell you that shaking hand is do do Parkinson disease.

01:15:13.030 - 01:15:28.870

Oh, oh. Voices affected. Shaking is affected. It's not a nervous condition that you are causing. Well, no, I would never take it personally, so Well, I hope you enjoy it. I'm gonna go and stop this good.