00:00:00.040 - 00:00:18.670

Uh, well, Mr does. Ladies, thank you so much for agreeing to do the interview. Um, would like to start by if you wouldn't mind telling me your full name on when you were born. Okay? I'm Jim. Does Elena's was born in 1938 an con Canal zone and Gorgas hospital.

00:00:18.740 - 00:00:38.750

Okay. And I understand that your family has a long history in Panama. All four of my grandparent's went down there in the during the construction of the canal on my, uh, my grandfather with the same name that I have was killed on the gateau. Unlocks in 1911.

00:00:38.750 - 00:00:57.990

He was electrocuted, and he was electrocuted three months before my dad was born. Wow. So my grandmother took, took his body back to the States and buried him, and she returned, uh, to the canal zone and went back to the job she had there. What was her job?

00:00:58.000 - 00:01:24.300

She was a telephone operator. Her? Her father, uh, where she was from Lafayette, Indiana, and her father was a major in the civil war, and she had a friend who? A family friend who was going down there to work. And she was just out of school, and she took a trip with him down there and ended up taking a job when she was there.

00:01:24.310 - 00:01:46.240

And then she met my grandfather and they got married. Then he got killed. So that's that's that part of the history I my other grandfather. He graduated from college in Missouri and went to work in Washington, D. C. And he was an accountant and he was recruited.

00:01:46.240 - 00:02:08.910

Thio come to Panama toe work. So that's and then he returned to the United States, got married and took my grandmother on that side down to Panama. And so my mother was born in the canal zone. Well, I'm wrong on that. My mother, my mother, was born in Washington, D.

00:02:08.910 - 00:02:29.280

C. But her mother was on the ship to go to Panama and started having labor pains, and they pushed her back to Washington, D. C. And she gave birth. My grandmother gave birth to my mother, and then my grandfather came back and got her and took her back to Panama with the new baby.

00:02:30.240 - 00:02:56.360

So that's that Z grandparent's side of the program. So Panama runs deep in your family's history. Oh, absolutely. What were your earliest memories growing up Well, E was born in 38 many of the old houses, uh, we're still in existence. And and it was just we lived in these old wooden houses.

00:02:56.600 - 00:03:16.370

In fact, I counted the other day that I had lived in 23 different houses in the Old Canal Zone. I lived in nine different houses when I was a boy growing up. And then when I was employed, I did the balance. I did 14 houses during my period of employment.

00:03:19.140 - 00:03:42.170

Oh, anyway, the old houses, they just I'll tell you one story. That's very interesting. Uh, they all had scuttle holes on these wooden big tropical wooden houses had scuttle holes at the at the floor at the sides of the house, and people would take a hose and wash their house out, push all the water out through the scuttle holes.

00:03:42.180 - 00:04:03.040

Uh uh, those those tropical houses for something else and you know well, everybody had mango trees around their houses. They all had tin roofs on them, except those that you know had the tile roofs. But it just I just think back about the hard rains and the sound from those old tin roofs.

00:04:03.050 - 00:04:30.990

No air conditioning and the bugs. The Roaches were something else. In those days, every house had Roaches. No rats but Roaches. Do you remember? Um, Or maybe you weren't quite old enough to remember. World War Two E. Remember it? Well, my mother was a Red Cross worker, Uh, and she would take me.

00:04:31.000 - 00:04:53.250

She worked on the docks, handing out coffee to the sailors that were coming through when the ships coming back from the Pacific. And I was just a little fella and she'd take me down to the docks with her. And I had a biggest collection of sailor hats you ever saw because all these sailors that were coming from the Pacific going back up to the East Coast would give me a sailor hat.

00:04:53.260 - 00:05:17.140

Wow, it was It was quite a quite a collection. So But I also remember, uh, all the activity there for war war to, even though I was it, you know, I was like, four or 56 years old, and it was my dad worked, worked seven days a week.

00:05:17.150 - 00:05:38.170

He worked all the time. He ran the what they called section I, which was the storehouse operation with the Panama Canal, and they were moving millions of board feet of lumber through there all the time. That was being used, uh, for different projects and what have you?

00:05:39.240 - 00:05:57.750

It was just It was an exciting time. And one of my best stories is at the end of World War Two, the military guys used to play, uh, softball games with the Canal Zone people. And, you know, they're they're big, big crowds of these softball games.

00:05:57.760 - 00:06:18.520

And I was at this softball game in the little town side of Diavolo, and, uh, I went home. For some reason, our house was about two blocks away, and while I was home, the radio was on and they announced that Japan had surrendered Bond. The war was over in the Pacific, and I My little legs started running.

00:06:18.520 - 00:06:35.280

I ran back to the ballpark, and I'm telling all these people World War Two is over. Japan has surrendered and they're saying, What are you talking about, little kid you don't even you know, And then the sirens, because they had sirens and all the towns had sirens that would warn people there any problems.

00:06:35.290 - 00:06:53.870

But the sirens came on and the announcement was made that Japan had surrendered. How did people react? Oh, it was It was bedlam. I mean, this was a little kid. I remember. Everybody was yelling and screaming and running around hugging each other. And these were these were civilian teams playing.

00:06:53.880 - 00:07:14.590

It was a Navy team that were they were playing at the time. It just It was really, really exciting. But, you know, I ended up being the superintendent of housing for the Panama Canal, and I was involved in tearing down many of the old houses and all that and that was that was an emotional thing for made.

00:07:14.590 - 00:07:35.690

But, uh and, you know, back in the thirties and forties, we were still living in the houses on the furniture that they had brought down in the construction of the canal because they would employ people from the states and bring them down and give them a house to live in and give them furniture live on.

00:07:35.690 - 00:07:55.540

So the Panama Canal had these big warehouses full of furniture Thio to be able to furnish houses for people on, uh and then later on, they phase that program out. People brought their own furniture and they bought it from the commissaries that were that were owned by the canal.

00:07:55.620 - 00:08:16.050

But one of the projects I had working for the housing branch was to get rid of all that furniture, and it was all in a big, huge warehouse. The warehouse must have been two blocks long and was just full of tens of thousands of pieces of furniture.

00:08:16.240 - 00:08:38.130

And I was charged with recording at all, and we were giving it to orphanages in Panama. On I there was a big vacant lot nearby the warehouses and I was carrying having the men carry all this furniture out. And I put the beds in one place and the chairs and another and, you know, separating it all out.

00:08:38.140 - 00:09:02.060

And I remember cars stopping along the highway and people running up. Could I buy some of that e mean? It was It was all wooden furniture that, you know, it was good would. But I was told you can't get rid of any of these things. You thes air going to the orphanages in Panama, so the canal turned over.

00:09:02.040 - 00:09:20.890

Oh, like I say, tens of thousands pieces of furniture to these orphanages. Yeah. So you went S O Well, when World War Two ended, you were about seven or eight. And can you talk about your your high school experience and where you went to high school?

00:09:20.890 - 00:09:51.340

I went to Bible High School. I graduated in 56 it was a typical 19 fifties high school. In fact, I've always felt like the people that lived in the Canal Zone. We're more like Americans than Americans. We were all very patriotic people. And and I think most of us really knew more about American history than kids back in United States.

00:09:51.350 - 00:10:24.010

What made the difference? What made that? You know, it was when you live out of the country on this, it's just it's a different environment, you know? It's, uh, you know, that's America Way would go back to the United States. All all the employees of the canal were would go back every two years on vacation, and, uh, the canal operated three ships that you would travel back and forth the United States on the ships and they would go to New York Harbor when I was a boy.

00:10:24.010 - 00:10:45.950

Growing up, they changed later on and went out in New Orleans, but during the time I was growing up, we go into New York. So I made a number of round trips from Panama to New York and back. And I can remember in the late 19 forties we got on the ship in in New York City, and we're supposed to sail and come back.

00:10:45.950 - 00:11:05.890

And they had the biggest labor strike they've ever had on the docks of New York. And we spent two weeks living on the ship. They're tied up to the dock, and I can remember with my little buddies, we would we would hang around the dock and all these longshoremen were gathered.

00:11:05.890 - 00:11:29.510

The unions gather them all together. They were running around with clubs, yelling and screaming. It was bedlam, E. But for a little fellow, that was It was interesting going through that. Yeah. And, you know, if you study American well, union history, you look back and see that it is considered one of the biggest strikes of all time in America.

00:11:29.520 - 00:11:55.480

Uh, it closed down the Port of New York, so yeah, uh, now you mentioned earlier. Mr says a lot is the sense that in the canal zone. It was Mawr. You were kind of mawr American. That was really something emphasized. Was that something emphasized in the schools, like in the books or the curriculum or the teachers or the I think so.

00:11:55.480 - 00:12:16.150

I think I think we we're more aware of being Americans. Like Fourth of July was, like the biggest celebration of the year in the canal zone. I mean, it was the It was the biggest day of the year. There was fares and athletic events. It was just It was an amazing day.

00:12:16.150 - 00:12:42.860

Every little kid live for the Fourth of July celebration. Mm. Did you do fireworks? O todo everyone? We could go into Panama City. See, the canal zone was separate and operated under separate laws. Now, you couldn't sell fireworks in the canal zone, but all we had to do was step over into Panama City and we could buy anything we wanted.

00:12:43.440 - 00:13:14.410

And every little kid had loads of firecrackers and little bombs and everything else. And you just can't imagine all thousands of kids running around all these firecrackers and big firecrackers. And it was something else. Okay, well, you mentioned, you know, going to the U. S. Periodically, What types of connections did your family have to family and friends in the US in the fifties?

00:13:14.720 - 00:13:41.350

Well, mainly people went back to visit there. You know where there where their parents may have come from. Now, In my case, my grandparent's uh, my grandmother retired back Thio, Lafayette, Indiana, and we'd go toe Lafayette and my mother's, uh, father retired to California, so we'd go out to California.

00:13:41.360 - 00:14:04.000

Uh, now my mother's mother died in the canal zone. Uh, and my and my, you know, my father's father was was killed down there in 1911. So every year we go back and go visit Grandma and Lafayette and Grandpa out in California. And my mother's sister lived out in California, so we would visit with her.

00:14:04.010 - 00:14:28.310

But a za boy I took, I think we had growing up. I did at least three round trips from New York to California and back. Wow, what were the differences that you saw between California and New York and Panama? Well, in our mind, I don't know where this came from.

00:14:28.320 - 00:15:02.470

In our in our mind, everything back the United States was really better. And you know, all the food was imported into the canal zone. Uh, most of the food at one time. The canal, uh, had its own dairy and it had everything. The canal was self sustained, but for some reason, there was an attitude that the the meat tastes better back United States and the butter tasted better in the milk.

00:15:02.470 - 00:15:26.810

Tasted better on you go. Want to go get a milk shake and things like that? We're back in America now. You know that That was exciting. We're back in America. But it was just It was a perception more than the truth, you know, But, uh, like I say, most of us just that was America.

00:15:26.810 - 00:15:53.800

And we lived in the canal zone and we knew that we were Americans and we were living out of the way we were living in another country, so to speak. It was interesting. Some people I've talked Thio, who grew up in the canal zone and said that they, you know, and every every experience is subjective, of course, but some some folks have said, Well, we people were taught better manners in the canal zone.

00:15:53.810 - 00:16:29.750

Compared to, say, American kids in the states. Is that ring true to your? Is that Yes, it does. Uh, I it's that so now is I don't know how to explain. It was just you were expected Thio to be to be a representative America, you know, And and I think I think the Americans down there try to represent America the best of America.

00:16:29.750 - 00:16:56.890

And in that respect, you follow May, uh, there's always been a stigma between the Americans and the Panamanians. But there, you know, there was two classes of people in Panama. Basically, when I grew up, there was the working class. And then there was the the upper Panamanian class, and most of them had been educated United States.

00:16:56.900 - 00:17:13.780

They went to all the best colleges. They all had plenty of money. So it was. It was it was basically a class system s. So now I'm gonna tell you something about the housing aspect of it that I don't know if you've heard it and any other interviews.

00:17:13.790 - 00:17:48.780

But if an American man married a Panamanian girl, they were told they had to live in the town of an con which was right on the border. A lot of people don't know this. Remember, I'm I go back many, many years, but so there are many, many, uh, of my friends that came from mixed marriages, and they were half Panamanian and half American, but they grew up in a way.

00:17:48.780 - 00:18:12.100

They were stigmatized. Uh, and a lot of a lot of them had a chip on their shoulder about the way they were treated. Their father was in America, and their mother was a Panamanian. An and very few of the American men. Remember, The majority of the, uh, of the people working in the canal were working class Americans.

00:18:12.100 - 00:18:33.440

They were tradesmen. They were electrician's. They were plumbers and all that. And most of those men that married Panamanians married Panamanians from the non rich class of people. You know, a lot of guys. Ah, lot of men married girls from the interior Panama, who these girls had no education.

00:18:33.450 - 00:18:53.860

So there was always, always that that stigma. Uh, but I'll tell you, most of these guys that I grew up with, there were half Panama and half American. Did well in school. They went on to college. They became doctors and lawyers. They were terrific people. Most of them were good athletes to.

00:18:53.870 - 00:19:13.550

So that's what I remember about that part of living in the canal zone. Okay. And along those same lines, Mr Does ladies was there. Do you remember the what relations were like in kind of in general, between people who lived in the zone and kind of the broader society?

00:19:13.560 - 00:19:36.390

Uh, it was, like many, many other things. Uh, there were There were Americans there that never left the canal zone. And then there were Americans that had many friends in Panama. I was lucky. My father, um hmm had been a very good athlete down there, and he had many Panamanian friends.

00:19:38.140 - 00:20:05.060

And so I grew up knowing both, you know, a new both sides. I was a golfer. I spent a lot of time playing golf, and, uh, I played golf. Was on, was friends with a couple of the presidents of Panama and all that. But I have many friends who really they there was they were quite quite active in Panama society.

00:20:11.840 - 00:20:50.160

But there were some Americans that were of the type that you might call the ugly Americans. But that's it was it was I don't know how to phrase it. But you have that everywhere you go, you know, there's prejudice, people on both sides. You know, a lot of the Panamanian people, uh, from the from the wealthy side of they wouldn't think of one of their Children getting married to an American because they looked at mostly Americans.

00:20:50.340 - 00:21:14.240

Azaz as the laboring class. The you know, they saw them as plumbers and electricians, and they were from high society in Panama. They didn't want their kids marrying those those working class Americans, you know. Oh, so it went both ways. Speaking of occupation. Now, when you were in high school, you went to Balboa High School.

00:21:14.250 - 00:21:39.970

Um, were you in high school? Were you thinking about a career? Your future where you, um aspirations or well, I wanted to be a golf pro. E didn't work really hard in high school, so I got drafted, got myself drafted right out of high school. What you do is that 1956 I got very lucky.

00:21:39.970 - 00:22:08.960

I I got selected to be the assistant to the golf pro at the Officers Golf Club for Bragg, North Carolina. So I spent two years in a job that I dreamed off. In fact, I was in the 82nd Airborne assigned to the 82nd Airborne Division after I got out of basic training and I wasn't there a week and I was going through pre airborne training and I got this call to report Thio Main Post to the golf pro.

00:22:08.970 - 00:22:25.660

Hey, wanted to interview me that he got my name and he said, I'm gonna I want you to come to work for May And he said he had paperwork sent up to have me transferred from the 82nd down Thio to his outfit down there to the golf club.

00:22:25.670 - 00:22:45.670

And, uh, I went before the sergeant major of the 82nd Airborne Division who had fought in World War Two. And he had all these stars on his wings and all that. And I can remember standing in front of his desk and this Sergeant Major make it said you're gonna leave the airborne to go work at a golf club.

00:22:45.680 - 00:23:00.810

He said, You're gonna ruin the rest of your life, he said, That's a terrible thing to Dio. My knees were knocking together because I was so excited. I'm getting my dream job. Now, I'm 18 years old and getting my dream job, and this guy is trying to talk me out of it.

00:23:00.820 - 00:23:23.060

I can remember saying no, Sergeant Major. No, Sergeant Major, that's what I want to dio. Oh, I And then I had a general taking a liking to me, and he had me tutored by a very brilliant young captain on. I took the West Point exam and got selected to go before board to go to West Point.

00:23:23.440 - 00:23:43.510

And there were two lieutenants on the board, and they when I walked into this room, they spend a lot of time at the golf club, and they knew me well on, uh, I looked down at them and they looked at me, and they tell me later, you have never made it through with one, so I didn't get selected.

00:23:43.520 - 00:24:06.710

Oh, God. So you were. You were in the service from 56 to 58. 50. Okay. And what came next? Well, I went toe Canal Zone, junior college, and at the same time, I opened a miniature golf course in Panama City, and, uh, I opened three or four different businesses.

00:24:06.720 - 00:24:27.320

I had another miniature golf course up in the account of David in Panama and had a small go cart race track. But I ended up going broken business and going back to the United States on. Then I returned to Panama, uh, in the early sixties and, uh, took a job.

00:24:27.320 - 00:24:49.520

Is the assistant project manager on a project for the Army building 500 houses at Fort Clayton in Fort Amador. And but I had taken the examination, uh, to become a policeman in the canal zone is they weren't hiring. Many boys are many, many people, uh, that grew up in the canal zone.

00:24:49.520 - 00:25:10.420

In fact, there was almost a, uh, at that time, there was almost a don't hire any canal zone kids, but to work and work in the canal zone, there was there was a few that got employed that very few on. And, uh, anyhow, I took the police exam and got 100 on it, and I had five points for being a veteran.

00:25:10.430 - 00:25:31.520

And eso I was a top of the list and the riots came in in 60 in 64 they started hiring policeman. I was at the top of the employment list. So I got a job, is, uh, as a police officer and work six months and transferred into the housing branch and spent a career with housing.

00:25:31.530 - 00:26:04.510

And my my last job with the canal was chief of the community Services Division. E I I just uh huh. I left Panama in 89. I got robbed, I got held up at gunpoint at Fort Amador and there's a long story behind that. But then several days later, I was playing with playing golf in Amador with a fellow who helped helped save my life there.

00:26:04.510 - 00:26:29.980

Because these guys that held me up where, what? They called Molly Aunties from Panama City, and one of them had a gun. And when these two fellows that I'm talking about came to help me, they fired the gun at them and, uh, left. And then three days later, I'm playing golf with these guys and one of them gets into an argument on the first tee at the Amateur Golf Club.

00:26:30.080 - 00:26:49.330

And I went up there to help him and the guy hit me, and I've never had anything like this happened on the golf course before, and it turned out One of these guys was a pilot for Noriega and the other was a businessman. That was in things with Noriega.

00:26:49.340 - 00:27:17.760

They didn't know anything about golf. And I ended up having a like a fist fight with this guy and he threatened to kill me and my family. And at that that same week, this these same guys with some other guys had burned down one of the yachts that the at the Amador Yacht Club that belonged to a Panamanian businessmen and killed the guy that was working on the boat.

00:27:17.770 - 00:27:45.800

So I had had enough, and I I sent my wife and daughter back to the States and I retired in 89 left there. But it was it was an exciting what was really bothering. May is being in charge of all the housing and a to this point in 89 we were having about five or six houses broken into every night.

00:27:45.810 - 00:28:04.980

These were not good times on bond. It was just I just was unhappy with the whole situation. I was unhappy with the treaty. I didn't think it was. They signed the right treaty. I mean, I wanted to see a treaty, but I didn't want to see the way they did it.

00:28:04.990 - 00:28:40.000

And, uh, I decided Thio to retire, Bond. I came back to the United States, but as a side note to this, I was part of a group that that was pushing to have a different type treaty written than was planned by the State Department. And the State Department recognized the effort that we were making because we were getting a lot of tension in, uh, in the T V United States.

00:28:40.000 - 00:29:04.480

In fact, I got interviewed was on NBC Worldwide. A lot of different things like that happened. But I can still remember our whole group listening to the state. They came out to my house and I had all my people in the house and these guys were trying to convince us to not fight treat anymore.

00:29:04.490 - 00:29:26.050

They said they were writing. They were writing provision in the treaty that would give us early retirement. All on, they were asking us right out in front. What would you like? What can we do for you? Thio make this treaty palatable, so you'll quit fighting this and I can remember everybody in the room saying we don't want you to give us anything.

00:29:26.050 - 00:29:45.440

We don't want you to write this type of treaty. You know, this is not right to the United States on duh. It still came out the way it came out, but I ended up getting early retirement. I've had a wonderful life since 89. I've been retired 27 years now, and, uh, I came back to United States, became a P g.

00:29:45.440 - 00:30:13.950

A golf professional, and I have been the head professional, a couple of fine golf courses, and I've had a great life, but I still down in my heart, just felt like the United States gave away more than they needed Thio. In fact, I was the guy who had to sign over all the houses to the government of Panama over because I was superintendent housing at the time.

00:30:13.960 - 00:30:46.670

And they had a ceremony where we signed over all these houses and I represent the United States. And officially, when when I signed that document, they became the owner off close to 5000 houses in £21 sites in the Canal zone Bond. From that point on, we had Thio deal with Panamanian officials on everything we did in managing the houses from that point on out until it was all turned over.

00:30:46.680 - 00:31:11.560

But these houses were given back to Panama, little by little, Uh, it was an emotional experience, e like Thio talk. Get more of your thoughts about the treaty in a few minutes. But I also wanted to you'd mentioned something that I've never heard anyone talk about in the interviews that we've done.

00:31:11.940 - 00:31:32.940

The Canal Zone Junior College. Can you talk about that? Like what? You what? You studied what? It was like that. Well, it was It was very typical, uh, off junior colleges, Any place in the world. In fact, my brother, uh, was, ah, professor there at the college.

00:31:32.950 - 00:32:16.280

Uh, he got his master's degree, uh, in the United States, and he ended up. I helped him get employed down there, but it was a very, very good school. Uh, in fact, many students did their two years there and went to universities back the United States, the best universities and did well, uh, Joe would who you've been dealing with here, Uh, Joe would did two years at the, uh, canals on college and graduate, and then went to University of Florida and got his degree, and Joe ended up being, uh, one of the top men with the Panama Canal.

00:32:18.090 - 00:32:34.360

My brother used to kid around. He said he was an accounting teacher and an economics teacher. And in fact, one of his students ended up going to Harvard, and he wrote him a letter. He said you were a good as any professor I had at Harvard, so that was quite a compliment to him.

00:32:34.370 - 00:32:54.900

But most of the professors there at the junior college had their master's and Ph. D s e. It was a good school. And then you e basically, actually, this is something that's been interesting. We also is You're talking. Who? Where did you learn how to play golf?

00:32:54.900 - 00:33:28.410

I mean, who taught you? Where was it? Um, well, there were a number of golf clubs in in, uh, in the canal zone in Panama. My, uh, my grandfather was one of the original members of the Panama Golf Club, So my dad was a member of the Panama Golf Club, and, uh, every weekend my dad and I would go out there, but also there was a course called Fort Amador.

00:33:28.420 - 00:33:45.560

It was a military course, and many of his his own people were a member of that golf club. The dudes were like when I was growing up, were like about $10 a month, and I worked there during three years of high school. I worked there on the weekends.

00:33:45.540 - 00:34:07.350

I made a dollar an hour. I golf was has been a big part of my life. But, uh, many, many young men came out of Panama and went to college and played on golf teams back the United States. And, uh, there's five or six of us ended up his PGA Golf Professionals.

00:34:07.350 - 00:34:33.490

But in fact, I was on the first golf team that played in the what they call they used to call. It was a national junior championship in United States. It was run by the J. C. S on, uh, in 1953 I four of us. The first four guys who finished in the in this tournament was in all Caribbean tournament on.

00:34:33.490 - 00:34:53.830

They called us the Latin American team, but I was on that team and went to Ann Arbor, Michigan, and we stayed at the university there and played golf. One of the fellows was from Costa Rica, and I've watched him through the years. But then several years later, I I was 17.

00:34:53.830 - 00:35:13.170

I made the, uh, I got to go toe Georgia and play, and that was one of Jack Nicklaus's first tournaments. He was three years younger than May. And what story I love to tell. I was standing with some guys talking. We were the older guys there because you couldn't play after you got to be.

00:35:13.180 - 00:35:34.390

I think it was 18, and, uh, somebody said, You see that little fat guy over there? And that XYZ name is Jack Nicklaus. He's from Ohio. That little fellow is probably gonna be one of the greatest golfers in the world on. I remember somebody saying, Well, there's lots of guys like that around on This fellow said No on there, that that's Jack Nicklaus.

00:35:34.400 - 00:36:03.160

He's going to be something else. And Jack Nicklaus turned out the best golfer there's ever been, you know? So that's that's an interesting story. Yeah, what were some of your the memorable experiences? A golf professional? Well, I've made 16 holding once. Wow, that's incredible. Uh, but most of the golf courses in the canal zone have closed up.

00:36:03.630 - 00:36:32.320

Uh, because of the treaty. Now there's a course. It's all Panama now, of course, it's called Summit. I was President Summit Golf course at one time. But now, Summit Golf courses is one of the finest golf courses. Uh, in Latin America, it, uh, the money. I think it was used Thio to rehabilitate summit, make it into what it is I think came from Colombia.

00:36:32.330 - 00:36:57.940

It was Colombian money, and I'm not gonna say work on money, but exactly Yeah, you mentioned a few of the other social upheavals or the 64 riot. Um, now you were I was in 64. I was, uh, the assistant project manager with a company called Jefferson Engineering.

00:36:57.950 - 00:37:20.710

And we were We were building these houses for the army, and my boss asked me to go play golf that it's the only time he'd ever done it. And we went over to a place called Rodman and we were coming back, uh, through a street that runs between the Canal Zone and Panama.

00:37:20.720 - 00:37:43.490

Because he was staying, he had a house with his family in Panama City and I was running him home before I went to where I live. And, uh, within an hour after we passed. This place is when the riots really erupted. Way were there an hour before Anyway, we were in his house.

00:37:43.490 - 00:37:59.240

He was We were doing a barbecue there and somebody had the radio on and they said, Hey, there's riots And I had been through the 1959 riots. And Saul, that happened. I said, Guys, we've got to get out of here and Oh, no, no, no, no.

00:37:59.240 - 00:38:19.420

We got we're going to stay here. I said let me tell you if this gets really bad, I said you're gonna be hiding in Your house is here. So I left. I got in my car and I left and I went through the back gate of Karan do and drove it back into an con bauble area.

00:38:19.430 - 00:38:45.000

And you could see I mean, it was unbelievable. I spent that whole night on the border sitting up on the hill with many other people watching all this going on. Yeah, it was, but I ended up having to get they they stayed in that house. And e don't know if you've heard the stories.

00:38:45.000 - 00:39:08.370

But there was There was hordes of Panamanians looking for Americans, and these people were really afraid that they were going to get so all the American contractors that were involved in our company had come to this one house and I ended up getting a Panamanian permission from the Panamanian Guardia.

00:39:08.380 - 00:39:32.610

They got some trucks, and we went in there and brought him out and brought him back in the canal zone and put him up in the Tivoli Hotel on one of the events that happened way checked him into the hotel. I went out and I was inside the hotel, but looking, looking out of the hotel down the steps of the old heavily hotel, and a soldier got shot right there.

00:39:32.620 - 00:40:01.760

A shot came from over in Panama City and he had just stepped out of the truck and got shot there. Oh, those were exciting days. Yeah. What were the, you know, serving there? I recall, of course. I was there in the mid eighties, and I just People have asked me about the kinds of relationships that we had with civilians, and I just don't remember having much contact when you were there.

00:40:01.760 - 00:40:28.740

I mean, the other side. Did you have much contact with the military with U. S military? Well, the Canal Zone people and the military people. We're very close. And I have so many friends that were in the military there that I still keep keep up with.

00:40:28.750 - 00:40:50.170

But that was through it through the things that you do. I made a lot of these friends through golf. You follow me? Oh, yeah, but I've heard a lot of military guys say, Well, I was treated bad down there by the canal Zone people. In fact, when I was in high school, if a girl dated a soldier, she was called rat bait, things like that.

00:40:50.170 - 00:41:17.830

But, you know, it's just thes things happened back the United States to its's the way people are, but, uh, where I live now, I live in Sun City here in Florida, and, uh, I've got five friends over there that were in the military, and I didn't know them down there, and they talked very highly of the times that they lived there and the relationships they had.

00:41:17.840 - 00:41:46.400

One guy married a nurse. He was a He was a A sergeant in the Army down there and he married a nursing Gorgas hospital, you know, and there are many of the girls that grew up in the Canal Zone, ended up marrying military guys. And here it this reunion that's going on now there's a lot of them that were that were married, you know that way.

00:41:46.410 - 00:42:35.580

So it was. But I don't know, there's there, are got a lot of good relationships and a lot of poor relationships. But that's you'll find that anyplace. Anyplace. Yeah, well, now, between the time of the forties and maybe through the seventies, what types of changes did you see in the Canal Zone and even in the broader region or Well, like I told you, I graduated in 56 we were still Well, I'll tell you, they changed over the the the electrical.

00:42:35.580 - 00:42:56.720

They went from 25 cycle to 60 cycle, and that was a big move. And then television came in. Now I never had a television. I never saw a television. It wasn't in until after I graduated from high school. Air conditioning was the biggest thing that I think that ever happened down.

00:42:56.730 - 00:43:29.830

Uh, it was I can remember that was That was the greatest thing that ever happened. But, you know, we lost. We the canal did away with the ships that they operated. They went back and forth toe. At that time, they were going back and forth to New Orleans, and people started flying back to United States when they returned, and little by little, like the rest of the world, every technology changed and and things became different.

00:43:30.240 - 00:44:02.250

Um, one of the interesting things in growing up as your shoes. Your shoes would grow green mold overnight in the house. You know, Panama is very tropical on. We all used to stuff newspaper into our shoes on and just anything that got wet got moly. Yeah, just But the air conditioning changed everything, but they didn't have air conditioning in the school.

00:44:02.260 - 00:44:29.410

Uh, so I you know, the building was very vory hot. No. And what was your job like? And I'm assuming you you went into you were managing The housing came after I transferred from the police department. I transfer in the housing and I started off a Z What?

00:44:29.410 - 00:44:48.810

They called the assignment clerk. I assigned the houses and also ran the moving truck. I had I had three crews of movers because people, you know, in the canal zone, the way you got your house, there were two ways to get a house you got into your service.

00:44:49.450 - 00:45:15.320

Uhh. I lived in my lifetime. I think I said this before. I lived in 23 different houses, but you bid on houses on. You were assigned the house by your service. Let's say a house became vacant and we put it, We advertised every week. You you apply for your house and your service date was the determination of whether or not you got the house.

00:45:15.330 - 00:45:43.170

In other words, if you had the most service of all the people that put in for that particular house, you got the house. And so people were moving all the time to get better houses. And then there was official housing on. And when I became chief community services, I got an official assignment, and the house I lived in was that the It was three houses past the governor's house.

00:45:43.180 - 00:46:09.510

And that was a dream come true for me because that was a big house when I was a little boy growing up That's where the big folks lived s I had arrived in my mind. You know, e I loved that house. I went back to Panama a year ago, and, uh, a friend of mine was driving me around there, and I wanted to see my house up there, and he had been bought by a fellow who had a lot of money.

00:46:09.520 - 00:46:36.970

And he took that old wooden house and must have hired a very creative architect. And he turned it. It went from just being a old wooden canal zone. House toe, a gorgeous shot, you know? Yeah, that's what money could dio. So what was your job? Title, you know, is you reach your senior your senior position.

00:46:36.970 - 00:47:08.020

It was Well, I was Superintendent housing from about 75 to 85 1975 1985. And I got promoted to assistant chief community services and my last six months there I was. Chief community services and housing was your main activity. A za chief Community services. I had four branches under May.

00:47:08.020 - 00:47:41.500

I had the library branch. We had a very, very uh yeah, top notch library. And we also had recreation services that came under my division, we had the housing management branch, and at that time we had slightly under 6000 houses left. And I also had the the what they call the buildings management branch.

00:47:42.680 - 00:48:17.280

We managed many of the buildings operated by the Panama Canal. And we, uh, at one time the division that I was chief of also had the grounds management branch. Uh, you know, as a sidebar to this one of the things that they used Thio, the newspapers, that we're trying to convince everybody that the treaty was right used thio always put in articles about the man occurred Lawns in the canal zone.

00:48:17.670 - 00:48:41.220

Uh, yeah, the canal zone had a a branch that kept all the grass cut. But if you didn't keep the grass cut in the tropics, you had a jungle real soon. So really, it was simple grass cutting. I live in a town, a retirement community here in Sun City.

00:48:41.230 - 00:48:58.800

The lawns, or 10 times better than any lawns, were down there in the canal zone. But the but the newspapers made such a big deal with the manicured lawns in the canal zone. What was wrong with having manicured lawn they were simply lawns have got cut.

00:48:58.810 - 00:49:26.770

Oh, God, It was a big joke, but that was a jealousy or they don't know. It was It was trying to convince the world that the canal zone concept waas colonialism. It was It was the It was the It was the presses attack on colonialism and Canal Zone was considered colonial.

00:49:26.780 - 00:49:48.390

You know that the United States was practicing colonialism in the canal zone on DSO. That's they based their argument on making this type of treaty on the fact that the United States didn't wanna be colonialist IQ. Uh huh. That's that's my opinion, of course, but that's what the newspapers were doing.

00:49:48.870 - 00:50:25.390

The Washington Post and all the newspapers New York Times they were. They were constantly bombarding the people that lived in the canal zone with the fact that they lived in manicured houses with manicured lots. Big deal. Yeah, I thought that was a positive thing. Well, you mentioned the treaty and trying to you were part of ah, effort or an initiative to negotiate a different kind of treaty.

00:50:25.860 - 00:50:48.430

Um what? What kind of what were your goals are tryingto we simply didn't feel the United States needed to give up operational control of the canal. Look, the canal had been operated all these years in the best interest of worldwide commerce. They kept the rates down.

00:50:49.110 - 00:51:09.350

It was it was well operated. We felt that, Yes, some of these things hire more Panamanians in which we've been doing that anyway. But they needed to be more Panamanians hired. Uh, but the United States there was nothing wrong with the United States operating the canal.

00:51:09.360 - 00:51:43.860

It didn't have to be operated in the well. I don't know how toe Say this. Oh, the appearance of the canal zone. The canal zone concept had the appearance of colonialism, even though we could prove it wasn't a colonialist IQ operation. But it had all the appearance of that we had.

00:51:43.870 - 00:52:19.480

We had communities that were, uh, segregated not by color, but by citizenship. There were. They call them the silver and gold communities at one time referred to that the Panamanian employees and these communities that had the Panama employees were originally made up of the people that were imported into the canal zone to build the canal.

00:52:19.480 - 00:52:44.980

They were the Jamaicans and the barb Asians and all of those people that came out of the Caribbean. These were the houses of the canal built toe house, these people. And then, as these people married Panamanian people, they became integrated into the canal into the Panamanian, uh, Panamanian way of doing things.

00:52:44.990 - 00:53:23.960

So these towns were not originally meant for Pana means they were meant for the imported labor's. But the it seemed as time went on, as these people became Panamanian citizens and all that, that we were segregating the communities by citizenship, you know, and color, because, let's face it, most of the people that were imported to do the work on the canal were the the black people out of the Caribbean.

00:53:23.970 - 00:53:45.150

Although there were many, many Italians that that were brought in, Chinese people were brought in on, and many of the Chinese people went on to become Panamanian citizens and became very, very wealthy people in commerce in Panama. You know, Hindus, there are Hindus that came to work.

00:53:45.160 - 00:54:03.670

Uh, there were there were people brought to the canal zone from all over the world to build the canal. It wasn't just Americans a za matter, you know. They talk about the thousands and thousands of people that died in the construction of the canal Onley 300 were Americans that died.

00:54:03.680 - 00:54:40.810

People don't realize that factor. My grandfather happened to be one of those three that died. But most of the people that died were the black Jamaican people. You know, they get the landslides in the construction of the canal. Dynamite accidents. I was Yeah. For political purposes, they try to make the American Canal Zone People look bad.

00:54:41.490 - 00:55:05.350

And it was wrong of them to do that. You know, so many of the canals on people had, uh, like I told you before, married Panamanian girls. And what have you they? Probably at the time, the the canal zone was turned over in 99 to the Panamanians.

00:55:07.230 - 00:55:29.730

Most of the people that were still down there, I would say more than half of them were half Panamanian, half American, You know, it had gradually changed over where it was. Ah, a mixture. It wasn't just all white American people. It was changing. It was constantly, constantly.

00:55:29.740 - 00:55:48.970

Yeah. Whereas people maybe in the I don't know the media or I'm still trying to get a handle on this. People from the outside. So people in the United States appears as if they didn't see the changes occurring. They didn't want to say they know the truth.

00:55:48.940 - 00:56:10.410

There's a lot of committees that came down here did research and the way the truth was perverted by a lot of these things. Uh, newspapers on, they just They twisted the facts on so many things. It's just e I'll tell you the truth. I I was sick at my stomach most of the time.

00:56:10.490 - 00:56:36.050

I did an interview like we're doing here with Saturday evening. I mean, the Washington Post and I asked them to retract some of the things they said they absolutely twisted what was said. What you said, Yeah, what I said twisted it. Uh, I never got a reply from them, but you know, once something goes to press like that, you're not gonna change it.

00:56:36.060 - 00:57:18.610

People read that yet. Yeah, but I think panel has done a a pretty good job off operating the canal way the last 20 years. The canal from the point that treaty was signed, we were forced into promoting Panamanians and hiring, hiring Panamanians. And like in the trade group's going through the, uh the like, uh, the schools of the canal operated to become electrician's and plumbers and things like that.

00:57:18.620 - 00:58:01.000

It was almost all Panamanians put into those jobs so little by little, even though it was still the canal zone, it was becoming Mawr and Mawr, Panamanians, And they've done They've done a fairly good job of. I think most of us were really concerned with the fact that notoriously, the Panamanian government had, as the politicians like we're seeing the United States, the politicians, you become president and you take all you could get and the people around you take all you get.

00:58:01.010 - 00:58:18.100

We saw that happening if they took over. In fact, the Panamanian saw the same thing. Many of my Panamanian friends that they're gonna take all the money and steal it from the canal. Well, they've done a pretty good job off not doing that. I don't know.

00:58:18.110 - 00:58:41.340

I can't tell you the inside story now because I'm not involved with it. But I think they set up a a way of managing it that prevented ah lot of that from happening. But the canal zone people based on history, off the way Panama had operated were afraid that this was gonna happen.

00:58:41.350 - 00:59:05.530

But I'll say I'll make this remark. The cost of a ship going through the canal is far greater than it ever waas. And that's affected world commerce, you know? And the cost of goods in the United States far more than people realize the widening. Yeah, well, well, they also said the canal was antiquated.

00:59:05.530 - 00:59:25.580

They didn't need it. And here they give him $7 wide, you know. Yeah, that was interesting. Well, I know I've taken a lot of your time, Mr Dislodge, but you went back. You mentioned that you went back. What? Year ago? What were your impressions? I mean, what were your feelings going back?

00:59:25.580 - 00:59:47.440

I mean, had you when you left, or you think this is it? I'm leaving this behind. But you What were your okay? The canal zone is no longer what I knew. Growing up, it was one of the most beautiful little places you've ever seen. It was It was It was a fabulous place.

00:59:47.450 - 01:00:09.070

But it has changed. The world has changed there. There's so much traffic in the old town of Balbo Now. You've been down there, You wouldn't recognize. I mean, I didn't even know where I was going most the time. There's so many different streets now it Zbynek, um industrialized its's a changing place.

01:00:09.080 - 01:00:25.620

Well, I think that zits Not what I knew, but who cares what I knew. You know, I grew up in what I consider one of the greatest places in the world. It was fun to live in. The Canal Zone is a kid, you know, It was a great place to pay.

01:00:25.630 - 01:00:46.290

It's now just a It's a big business, you know? It's a big, big business. That's the difference. I don't know if I help you in any of this. It's been fabulous. And this is the difference between aural history and journalism. I mean, we're not gonna be changing your words.

01:00:46.300 - 01:01:12.890

It's the really the final text. Were there any, uh, any final thoughts you had? The things we didn't talk about that you'd like to add? Um, well, I could go on and tell story after story, but I think you've got enough there that it's, uh, maybe it's if I don't know if I should different light on it, then you've heard before.

01:01:12.890 - 01:01:21.630

It's been incredibly education. I've learned a lot just from listening and the questions. But thank you, Mr Dishonest. I really appreciate it, okay?