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This is Candace Ellis with Davis Stevenson on July 8th, 2011 at the Panama Canal re Union in Orlando. Talking about life in Panama. Um, so I guess we'll just start right from the beginning. How did you find yourself ahead of your family? Come to the canal zone?

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Well, actually, I was born in the Republic of Panama. One of the rarities. My father was a editor of the Panama American, which was a newspaper published in Panama. On one side was English, And then you turn on the other side was Spanish, and I was born on KSTP anti on July 9th, 19 30.

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Mhm. Then my father, my father's coming to the canals was rather old pink. My dad was born, he was a newspaper. Mansour is all over the place. And, uh, but then we moved into the canal zone for a couple years of work. He worked for a chemical company, okay?

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Lived on anchor on boulevard. Then the family left. We went to Downers Grove, Illinois. They went to Puerto Rico. Haiti, Inzamam English. Three days after Pearl Harbor was bombed, we left in the last. Is this Christo Booth? Panama Canal railroad vote for Panama and we came back into Panama on We stayed ever since.

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And I joined the army in 1951 went off, retires a full colonel. But I was the other day I was trying to think about remember the little boy right in the train across the isthmus and looking at data and making all the stumps that we're still up for.

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The trees who were flooded and it was always amazed by it. And today, when I go back, I kinda brings back memories to see the most of their gone. E went to Bob, a high school graduate from Bobbo High School or the mediocre Student. Mhm. How did your father meet your mother machine?

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No. My father met Mom and Puerto Rico and they were married in a town called Caguas, Puerto Rico. And my mother graduated from college one of the degree in physics. But in those days, women couldn't get that kind of degrees. So the only thing she get degree was in astronomy.

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She was a schoolteacher in Puerto Rico. That's where they met. Then My dad from Puerto Rico came to Panama, Kind of moved around. I know you mentioned. So you you lived in in the zone and then you left briefly and came back. We came back. We lived in Panama.

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Okay, That was during the war s. Did you live in the zone during the war? Did you know we lived in Panama? And then later on we moved to Karan Do, which was an army time. My dad went to work for the army. Ankara in the heights.

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Okay, but that first time that you guys were there. Your father was working for the the the canal. Hey worked for He was the editor of the Panama American, the Panama newspaper. Then he went to work for the canal company for four or five years. What kind of work did he do for them while he was?

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E can't remember. When I remember the story that a family lost her job because of the economic problems. That lady and my dad resigned so she could take his job. We went back to states and down the road in Puerto Rico. He got a job, Puerto Rico, but And if you ask me a Zeiss a, my father's backgrounds rather pick Sometimes I thought it was?

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Yeah, a reformed alcoholic or something. What was it living like in Panama for the first time, Did you guys have the Panama Canal housing you? No, no, no, no. We lived right in Panama City on. Okay. So even when he was working for the canal, you weigh moved in and lived on an con boulevard for a couple of years.

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Right? And I can remember sitting on our back porch of seeing the iguana is going up and down the oil palm. Just look, you shut my eyes and see it today. And this maybe 67 years old was Do you remember if it was a single family home room?

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It was a poor family of the old French construction. Yeah, Nikon Boulevard. And then where did you attend middle school in elementary way? We're traveling so much. My mother taught me. I went to Calvert School, which was an extension school many, many, many years ago for students overseas.

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And I did back in the canals I went to I did not speak good English because we're in Latin America. I'm totally bilingual. But my English was terrible when we came back to the canals on because of my language problem. I had trouble of school. So they put me back in the sixth grade in an Kong with a teacher.

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My name is Sue Core, who is a very famous writer. And she was my mentor and situated Went toe junior high school bobble bobble high school. What was about high school like? Was that a fun experience? Yeah, I look back at the time. I didn't think so, like school.

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But I look back at it, I think, you know, But we make lifelong friends there that we still today. In fact, I was out here and I bumped into guy. Graduated with back in 50 me. Um, and do you say that the quality of education Excellent.

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I mean, the schools were you didn't, like very, very good schools. There was a great focus on education. E remember, we used to have flag football, and also they're gonna tackle football. All of us were so excited that now we're gonna play tackle football, uh, with little things.

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Uh, like we didn't have TV for many, many years and they had black or white. We all used to sit around and then three Army came in with the color TV, so it was quite an experience. You describe an average Saturday night for a high school or living in the area drinking beer differential.

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Yeah, but, you know, we were such a close again. I was a Boy Scout. We did a lot of scouting stuff scouting, Uh, and we hung around. We hate stuff. Clauses. Every town had a clubhouse and like an anchor on clubhouse, there was a great big field to the right in the face that where we used to play Wriggle Livio kicked the can.

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Things like that. We all sit around there. Uh huh. And way played a lot of sports. They encouraged a lot of sports and the Canal Company made. It was a utopian experience in a communist setting because the government controlled everything and it was just great fun.

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The government brought closing. No, no, no. The government gave us jobs. They control the housing where you could your house. It was based on your grades. So if you were high up high up in the pecking order, I think somebody mentioned that that just shopping was difficult within the zone, you know, doing shopping for clothes and stuff like that.

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But a lot of it was we had the commissary the commissary built and their guidelines within the commissary pretty limited. And they had a closing stage and things like that and your choices weren't great because you had no other competition. And when I grew up Canal Zone, people very seldom went to Panama.

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In fact, I think my father in law, who was a tugboat captain, did not go to Panama in all the years he was e married his daughter. And then they started going in Japan. They wouldn't even go to the movies and Paracas the Pentagon also. But we had our own bakery.

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We had a dairy. We had our own ice cream plant. So everything was taken care off. They went on annual vacation to go to Christo bomb on the ship to New York or New Orleans and that so there was quite a golf there. That's why a lot of canals kids there were so Spanish.

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So you think that people just weren't interested in going to Panama or were there other reasons? E don't think so. I think what the reason was that everything was contained there and they had no reason going out. A lot of Americans had places up the beaches of core Gona Santa Clara and the weekends.

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They go up there to the beaches and we'd go fishing up in the mountains of Panama. But I think the reason that interface number ones transportation when we were growing up, horses were just starting to disappear. And there was. They keep the Panama Canal Company took care of their.

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We had our own movie halls. We had our own schools. We had our own clubhouses, old police force own process of Why did I go to Panama? Have everything here in the community is very close, you know, like if you lived in card, Yes. Everybody card this way.

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Get together on parties. You mentioned transportation. How would you have gotten into Panama if there was a a bus? They used to have Cheevers what they call Cheevers if you go down the museum to see morals were trump bodies where they built a back to it and everybody sat on benches facing each other.

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They're called Shiva's Way used to go to Panama and Chibas and then to travel between the Atlantic and Pacific side. There was a railroad, the railroad. During the war, they built the road. But remember those days cars were still very luxury. And I don't think till about late 48.

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49 is when we really started across the isthmus on the robe there was early morning train at 10 o'clock training, noon train, afternoon train and needing train and 10 o'clock train. So there was a regular shuttle service and I remember going to the ball games. There was a tunnel waiting for a ton of last about 30 seconds trying to sneak in a kiss with a girl.

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Oh, really? Was. It was a train. A place to socialize. Yeah, yeah, we go to the football games, basketball games and all of us kids to get on the train. Have a good time going across the isthmus. And how long did that journey take? About an hour, hour and 15 minutes, and it stopped it.

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Peter McGill, Gamble Free Hollis, GATT to stop him had kerosene lamps inside the truth. It was we were a zai say everything was taken care. It was a lot of fun. Um, I guess we could move on Thio. Just different traditions like Christmas and New Year's and celebrations like that.

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How are they celebrating normally? Christmas Thio Company being the Christmas trees. And then one day we're everybody rushed out and get in line. All the Christmas trees were out a big lot. You're running. Grab yours and the big thing After Christmas, we used to collect the Christmas trees and were worth of color Christmas tree Born.

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We're all of Chris, you know, different parts of town collected in town. We have a Christmas tree burn. It was a big battle between towns. Guys, they're sneaking and try to steal this guy's Christmas trees and some of the zoning and still practicing here in the States.

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I could tell that has to have a big Christmas tree burn were after Christmas All the Christmas trees were brought in and we would have ah, barbecue and be fun or you was it? It was a lot of fun. Was it Was it common for kids to have a part time job?

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You know, part time for the most part time, job like issues at the movie hall and during the summer the company had a student program. But jobs like you find the states, but there's no Burger Kings or anything like that. It was just a lot of us would sell sodas at the ball game to make extra money or try to sell mangoes on the street.

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But there were no jobs because remember, the government controlled everything. There's no private industry in the canal zone, per se. How long was your family in the Canal Zone? When did you guys leave? For the last time my father passed way. Came back in 41. My father passed away in 63.

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My mother passed away. Good. She's almost 100 years, so I can't remember now. I joined the Army in 1951 and left. Was commissioned. Spent a year where? Near born regiment. Then I was signed a Pamela around that my wife, June, whose great grandmother, her grandmother, was a telephone operator.

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Catalina in 1914. When can now open So her roots go way back. He's been there for a while. Yeah, Yeah. Um did you So you went back Thio pain most with the military. What kind of work were you doing? There just was Lieutenant, the United States.

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And there's a platoon leader in the 33rd of Treasury from there, as very fortunately, assigned to Diplomatic Post, which led to a great military careers. E was the first lieutenant. I was assigned to the pared Y Army mission for 2.5 years, which led to other assignments.

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Student I total by liquidity and the fact that I carried a Pam in your passport was leaving Panama the several times he did. Was that ever difficult for you? Because I know it is a very tight knit community. E don't think so, because become accustomed to moving as a child and it moving was always a new adventure.

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We and my wife retired from the Panama Canal Company and we left in 89. I wanted to stay, but she wanted to leave. She was scared of Noriega. E was still a poker in the army head from talks to my some of my senior officers. I knew the invasion was coming, but I had no details.

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I tryto told you to be patient. They're gonna get rid of Noriega. And but she decided we wanted until she retired. We came back to states and That was in 1989 89. Both our Children were born in Gorgas Hospital. Okay. My son was born in Gorgas.

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My daughter was born in Gorgas. My son was born in Gorgas. I was overseas in the Army. When did you get to come back? How old was he? Well, June brought him back to me. You used by two months old when you can e wasn't prepared.

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Why, Um were you there for the for the riots? In fact, I participated. Really? Yeah. We went out to dinner, and my wife and I and our two chillers We walked out of Tivoli Hotel. I saw all the trouble. So I took June home when I came back, and I witnessed until about 1 a.m. And I took my car instead of trying to get back across.

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I went all the way around the forest preserve. When they told you pack stuff. We're gonna move back in the zone with my parents, her parents. So I drove all the way back around that night. We stayed in e think about a week that we went back to Panama on Junior said, and then we went back and lived with her parents for another two or three weeks till things compound And what was attention like then, was it pretty bitter between?

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Well, you don't, right? In fact, I wrote by paper Command and General Staff College on the riots when I was get by Graduate Conventional staff college. And I really think the resentment was always that we were there, kind of remember that way went into Panama. The ascendancy of power.

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The United States was colonialism. We had taken the Philippines a Spanish medical war. So I think we went in there with that attitude. Not intentionally, but English was the dominant language. Way had silver and gold rules. And anybody discuss that with you? Yes, golden silver rolls.

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They paid the local rates in silver and Americans and gold. So we were brought up under that attitude. There was a lot of resentment from panel because I had to come through the canals on the canals are pretty screwed. Arrest him when they were going between their country and e think if I was a familiar what It felt the same way.

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Wait a minute. These guys right in the middle of my country and a politician stirred it up. They stick in it because it was like, here in the States tax the rich, one of Pamela's get rid of his own, get rid of the Americans. And I think today when I go back, uh, people beginning Thio that editors starting to change, I give an example what happened when the treaty was coming in, the military was leaving and there was a guy that shine in the barracks.

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We had shoeshine boys. You take all your boots and drop him off. He shined him between your shoes and we paid paid him every month of the guy. There was a young man that polished shoes for 22 years in the barracks, educated three Children through college.

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Based on that thing the sandblast Indians did the pot walloping the cleaning up of the missiles made a very good living. Mhm because the military would hire him. We had no g I ever did kitchen work. So, you know, they're sectors of the politicians stirred up because it's to their benefit a lot of time in and say, Hey, wait a minute, don't touch it because you know I'm making a good living, and another big resentment wasn't in canals, and maybe they pay two bucks an hour.

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And Pamela men words will be 50 cents so that it was room for resentment. I was a great proponent of not signing a treaty. Fact I put together petitioning Congress has a lot of work, but now I look back and I see what's happened. I think that there was a good thing we signed the treaty because if we were still in Panama, in the Canal zone, everything we painted gray and there'll be no change because the government.

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But when I go back to family, see all the condominiums growing up, I see all the improvements and with the commission is then the product we turn to him. I'm impressed, and I had no resentment about that would use it during those riots. Would it have been dangerous for Americans in the zone to be traveling into Panama City was that it wouldn't have traveled because the army sealed off the porters.

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They couldn't. Yeah, most of Americans. A lot of the Americans came over to the canal zone or just stayed home. And your given example. I was standing on a street corner about three weeks after right out and a Panamanian came up and said something to me in Spanish.

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Gringo wave on, which was a real insult. And I said by the menu, Mark Priano. I said, uh uh, family without any manners. And the guy I thought was gonna fall off the curb because you never expected to come back in Spanish and for many years of a slight tension, But it was a really low.

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Yeah. And where did you relocate when you guys left? Well, my daughter married a boy from Georgia s, so we came back. We had a place in Florida. My daughter called. We were talking to on the phone before we left. He says, Dad, you know, you were going a lot, you know, and we're gone.

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Why don't you come up so we could be close? Is a family. That's where we are now. And the adjustment just because you were so used to moving wasn't difficult. You like I tell people things like that don't bother me. My outlook on life Hey, I'm sitting here talking to you this morning.

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Today is my day. If I come back here tomorrow morning is gonna be my day. So I don't look at life in a way, a lot of people. Well, if I do, that's gonna happen. I look forward to every day is an adventure. I do. I really looking forward to talking to you.

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Leave here probably have no great impact upon the world. I had a good time talking Thio. What's a great attitude to have? I'm trying to think if we've left anything out, you know, we're really here just tryingto get a grasp on how things work there and what the experience was like.

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And one of the things I think we're kind of interested in is just race relations in the zone. They now e let me say this. We think Pama Canal was built mostly by Southerners. You know, they came out of the south so naturally they had their bias.

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But when I look back on it, I don't think there was attention now. Very true that the black community was in the community living in their own towns and they worked side by side, had different pace car. But I've heard guys very well. You had the silver fountains, the gold fountains.

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I think growing up we didn't really realize that there was a because I don't think there waas e remember the weight of the and come close When I was growing up, my name of Johnny, we used to come in the closet. How are you doing it?

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Sit down and serve me a shrimp salad because that's all I could afford together. And Jackman, who was a black man who did our We went to the gym. He took care of our baskets and thank you. I don't think the racial tensions like we had in the South, I don't think existed because that's what I'm thinking of, you know, and the civil rights movement and everything that led up to it.

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And there's all these stateside politics that how are they playing out in the zone, which is really didn't. Yeah, there were some guys were racist, but I think they were racist because that was, you know, I've got friends of mine is still upset about Jews, and they say, Oh, the juices and I asked him why Well, because maybe his father, waas, was the mood to be racial tension.

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E don't think existed. E really don't That's interesting. Um, just trying to get to the bottom of that because that's how it certainly seems. You only seems by people here in United States who tried to build into it something that didn't exist because politically it suits their needs about there was tension between Pamela and Americans, but again, that goes back.

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The fact that we're in their country, that many kids from Panama, where in the canals, on schools, the parents pay the tuition for them to be educated and went to states and got educations and came back. And I think when they start talking about the racial problem, Sally, I think it's a small group trying to build something that did not exist.

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You got to remember that when the canal was built, they first tried Spaniards that didn't work out. The French failed. They brought in Chinese. They failed. Finally, they decide to go to Barbados and bring the West Indians, and they could stand the weather and the work.

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Very true that there were aside. But that wasn't because of Ah, any over thing is again. At that time, the United States Army was separated, the government was separated So it was a spillover from the United States. But because there is no politics involved, there was none of the attention that za good point.

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That's interesting. Um, really covered everything. Is there anything you'd like to add any? Any particular memory that stands out? Oh, yeah. You know a za kid, you know, way. In fact, we were at breakfast with another friend of mine. Who's Dorine Thomas. We're talking about when we were Boy Scouts going to bark.

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I said Dorin. Remember when the trucks would come down with the foggy machines for the bugs? We used to run behind the trucks today that environments would have a fit with or sitting on our back porch and seeing a deer walk back yard from an Cornhill or or a Nikki cheese full of parakeets?

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And it was a unique I was very fortunate to grow up in a unique situation which very few citizens ever get. Dio e don't know how many times I stand in the locker, watched that ship go through, and I'm thrilled every time e mean to be able to sit there and say I'm a part of history.

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Not very many people can say that. How often do you get to go back there? I go back to three times a year. I like to fish, but we have a travel agency that we started as a hobby. And in fact, we're getting ready now to celebrate the 100th anniversary of the opening the canal or putting a program together for that fact, we're gonna talk to university and see if they would be interested because we do a lot of cultural trips for University of Chicago and other universities.

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But you should take some. You have students. You should take some US students to Panama. Oh, yeah, But in the military, United States Army was in Panama way before you. The U. S. Military used to cross the isthmus on their way to California. I saw morning Reporter report where they started with X number of troops, they across the isthmus loss and yellow fever.

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And that's when they're waiting for the ship to come down from San Francisco. Commanded by Captain Ulysse, says Grant, he crossed the canal and the railroad was built to transfer. The gold have crossed. So when you look at Panama my God, how in a wine. It is with our history way have ignored it.

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I agree. And I think that, you know, this is why we're down here doing this kind of work and really hoping that some good research is going to come out of this because it really is such a incredible source of all these experiences and different dynamics that set it apart from the States and just made it its very own interesting place.

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Um, do you guys, um do you guys have a like a house down there and you just start? We own property. We so little. Okay, I own the farm down there. A lot of canals. Um, in fact, for many, many years, guys from the canals were owned automobile distributorships.

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I think the first ball bowled Rory was set up by an American family. The first whiskey distillery down there was set up by an American family so that there was a lot of interaction because, remember, in the canal zone, there was no private business, so he wanted to drink beer.

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Who's going to supply the beer? Because the company didn't. So manufacturing panel brought it over something with you Wanted to drink bourbon Hey, can't buy you. Can't fabricators or company was they set it up the same thing with Did you want to buy an automobile? They insulted.

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She had to go to Panama. Is it is owning land? They're expensive now. Or is it real estate values going out through the roof? Because down there. But the cost of living normally is low foods. For us, it's an expensive for Panamanian. It might be expensive with our economy.

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Remember that Panama is a dollar economy. It's the only country in Latin America. And drink the water right from the faucet because of the American influence with filtration plants in the Canal Zone Theologian City 110 Bolt. It's not to 20 because the Panama Canal, uh, influences spread in both directions.

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Yeah, All right. Well, I don't know if you had anything else. Maybe we'll let me go back to this racial thing because, Okay, I was in a board meeting where this was brought up by somebody and he was very snooty about it. I think it's somebody trying to create something that did not exist because of a liberal bias or political bias.

00:27:54.780 - 00:28:13.440

The United States and, uh, because a lot of us talked, very finally, of the blacks, the West Indians, they weren't black, source of West Indians. I don't think the word *** was ever used on it was West Indians, and I think it's grossly, grossly overplayed trying to make a issue.

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You asked me about it. Why did you ask me? It's just for a researcher I'm doing. I'm actually studying the American South. Eso You know, race relations is like a marquee term within that. And, you know, you're assuming this is American presence in Panama. And, you know, just I guess, you know, just have a curiosity.

00:28:34.020 - 00:28:53.340

How does that play out? When, when Stateside. You know, you have the civil rights movement, all the violence before it, Um, you know, everything that followed it. So just because, you know it is so closely associated with, you know, the mainland, you have to kind of wonder, you know how what the what the state of it was.

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I guess it really is what I'm trying to get down because I know it was much different than from what was happening elsewhere, but with that said what was happening? What was going on and It's really just that I'm not. I don't think any of us are trying.

00:29:09.320 - 00:29:31.960

Yeah, just curiosity, really, because it is such a new thing. You know, there's I've done the research and I tried to find publications and stuff on this, and it really isn't a new new thing. So Well, let me in that relationship. But if you wanna take a look, look how many canals on people married 10 million, right?

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And that's another thing that we come across all the time. So it's obviously is not lower case, a lot of high class, you know, middle class Panamanians. They didn't marry the trash like, Say, why she This is the You were educated Panamanian women. Go look around all the wise now the big, big bow in the canals on speaker.

00:29:57.210 - 00:30:16.460

That's when they integrated the police force. And they, for a long time West Indians and Panamanians couldn't get U. S rate as policeman and fireman, but that was done away with. So they were integrated into. There were some mumbling about that, but didn't last long. What did the integration happened?

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Uh, a ex canal zone coffin. Yeah, it's just interesting because it's It's so different, and yet it is still an extension of the U. S. So? Well, the extension was because of the Southerners have built a canal. Nothing else. Their influence was great. Most of the carpenters, steel workers, all the people came out of the south on their deep roots into the South.

00:30:45.040 - 00:31:07.740

Mhm. Mhm. Mm. Well, I hope I'm giving you a good mental. And you really have e really trying todo understand this question as a as a history. A historian of the South and figuring that out. And I think you know, the more of these ideo, the better understanding I have of the conditions down there and what it was like.

00:31:07.750 - 00:31:20.940

It's really great. I feel like if I could speak Spanish, I'd be writing my dissertation about this. But if you wanna do some side research, take a look at the population of the canals on how many of us joined the army and served in the military.

00:31:21.250 - 00:31:40.570

See how many of the Boy Scouts became Eagle Scouts? How many of them got college educations? Way out of proportion? Do anything. The United States. If you look at the average town of 5000 people in United States. See how many got a college degree, Advanced degrees, how they join the Army.

00:31:40.940 - 00:32:01.520

It would be a nice research for Project because it was outstanding. Mostly canal Zone kids went off to college, majority of went off to college. Ah, lot of joined the Army and spent time in the Army. Most of us were Boy Scouts. How high up in the ranks did you go in the military in the Boy Scouts?

00:32:01.530 - 00:32:24.550

How was the Star Scout on my way to being a senior patrol leader? But you know that? Uh huh. And was there opportunities for higher education within the way had the canals on college college for a long time. Then Florida State came in and University of Lowball No.

00:32:25.140 - 00:32:51.630

Louisiana came in. You take courses there, established a family canal. Company had a apprentice program, which was equivalent to four years of college when you graduated from there. After four years in The Apprentice program, you are well trained, well educated technicians, electricians, plumbers, ironworkers, pipefitters and most of migrated into the family canal.

00:32:51.630 - 00:33:13.180

If you ever go down a family canal and you're going to control house and get down below and look at the work where the different colored cables come down that they installed back in 1914. They come perfect, right? Angles down perfect, right angles and three, the depend a canal had a fantastic apprentice program One.

00:33:13.190 - 00:33:33.370

Yeah, and a lot of canals when boys took it, stayed there as electrician's and everything else Interesting. Well, thank you for your time. My pleasure, young lady. And I hope that we contribute to it. And I hope I think you you really did clear a lot of interesting things up for me.

00:33:33.450 - 00:33:52.020

That was great way distill this racial thing. E don't think it was just Yeah, let's get to know, You know, it's just coming from From what I'm studying, you are always, like, you know, looking out for that intends to that. But, you know, I understand that it was just in the North.

00:33:52.020 - 00:34:08.090

It was completely different, You know, the way that it played out there and then we have this and it is relatively and researched. And the publications on the Panama Canal have really been earlier things about the building of the canal and not this vibrant social aspect.

00:34:08.090 - 00:34:23.240

So I can't wait to see what people are gonna do with another town. Were company in the world Could have three people show up every year. The party make friends. Have you been out there in the lobby in the evening? That amazing? Yeah, that it is.

00:34:23.240 - 00:34:40.810

And everybody I'll be talking to somebody and mentioned someone who I've interviewed, maybe last year, and it's like, Oh, yeah, I know that, Yeah, So it's It's definitely it seems like it would have been really neat. The first time I didn't. I came down here I had done.

00:34:40.820 - 00:35:00.800

Doctor Ortiz had given me a few readings to do and little things about it, but I still had no idea. And I started doing the interviews, and I am so jealous. Way so lucky you not. I mean, that's just being like Brad, but it's really so it sounds really glad I could help you, young lady